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#1 Mar 03 2011 at 7:01 AM Rating: Default
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This data is somewhat representative of the response seen to Question 9 data. The people have spoken. As such, we'll be operating under the premise that new PvE content, such as dungeons containing sought-after loot, will be instanced. By instancing content in this way, we'll be able to reduce claim wars and counter-camping and all that. There's also the added merit of enabling the level design team to work with a clear theme in mind, and create much more engaging and challenging content.


God **** it! that's what made FFXI fun!
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#2 Mar 03 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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It was fun if you were able to claim the monster and/or had a claim bot.
#3 Mar 03 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Couldn't they have just made drops into ex stuff? Seriously, my fondest memories of XI was beating other parties into claiming the YY robe NM.

That was just SICK back in the day man.
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#4 Mar 03 2011 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
It was fun if you were able to claim the monster and/or had a claim bot.



This.

It was fun at first. But after the 20th straight time that I didn't see the Mee Deggi had popped until it was half dead I stopped seeing the fun in it. Especially since most desired items had a 1-10% drop rate.

If they instance it, they can make the drop rates .0000001% for all I care. The fun is in participating in a battle, not staring at your screen for three hours to see a mob pop claimed.
#5 Mar 03 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The secret is in the pain, no pain no gain :(

Killing your mob over and over and over and over in an instance with no one to share your pain with isn't any fun either.

Getting drops on first kill is just plain boring.
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#6 Mar 03 2011 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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What do I have to gain from a video game that justifies the pain?
#7 Mar 03 2011 at 8:30 AM Rating: Default
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..... this sucks. does not look like ill be ever logging back into this game. FFXI for life I suppose. Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast. ........... this is so disappointing that they are actually going to make instanced dungeons what next chocbo's as permanent mounts, then all server dungeon finder tools, ! marks for quest givers, this just makes me sick. I suppose I am happy for you that will enjoy yet another game turning into every other game out there now days but this officially marks the end for me and I now truly hope this game fails and SE goes bankrupt for the choices they are making for this game.

hate to rant but this is just to much bad news for me, once they turn off the ffxi servers my mmo gaming days are looking to be at an end :(
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#8 Mar 03 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.
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#9 Mar 03 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast


It was a rush sitting around doing "nothing" for 3-6 hours waiting for something to pop and not get to fight it? We muts have differing opinions on what fun is. FFXI is also stuffed to the brim with instanced content, so I don't understand why you'd forsake it in FFXIV but find it ok in FFXI, or do you not enjoy Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis, BCNM, KSNM, and all the other instanced content in FFXI?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:40am by ThePacster
#10 Mar 03 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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elevencharle wrote:
..... this sucks. does not look like ill be ever logging back into this game. FFXI for life I suppose. Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast. ........... this is so disappointing that they are actually going to make instanced dungeons what next chocbo's as permanent mounts, then all server dungeon finder tools, ! marks for quest givers, this just makes me sick. I suppose I am happy for you that will enjoy yet another game turning into every other game out there now days but this officially marks the end for me and I now truly hope this game fails and SE goes bankrupt for the choices they are making for this game.

hate to rant but this is just to much bad news for me, once they turn off the ffxi servers my mmo gaming days are looking to be at an end :(


The game already have open world NM, wtf you are talking about?!
#11 Mar 03 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Default
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ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast


It was a rush sitting around doing "nothing" for 3-6 hours waiting for something to pop and not get to fight it? We muts have differing opinions on what fun is. FFXI is also stuffed to the brim with instanced content, so I don't understand why you'd forsake it in FFXIV but find it ok in FFXI, or do you not enjoy Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis, BCNM, KSNM, and all the other instanced content in FFXI?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:40am by ThePacster



yes that stuff is instanced but just watch this is gonna take on a whole new level from those in ffxi.

anyway have fun in the game but I will not be logging in ever again, not that anyone cares or is willing to admit the same issue I did since all it does is equal rate downs.
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#12 Mar 03 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast


It was a rush sitting around doing "nothing" for 3-6 hours waiting for something to pop and not get to fight it? We muts have differing opinions on what fun is. FFXI is also stuffed to the brim with instanced content, so I don't understand why you'd forsake it in FFXIV but find it ok in FFXI, or do you not enjoy Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis, BCNM, KSNM, and all the other instanced content in FFXI?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:40am by ThePacster



THIS!!!

But also have roaming world nm's and super hard mobs that drop rarer mats. Its about the diversity I truly hope SE sees that, which I think they do.
#13 Mar 03 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast


It was a rush sitting around doing "nothing" for 3-6 hours waiting for something to pop and not get to fight it? We muts have differing opinions on what fun is. FFXI is also stuffed to the brim with instanced content, so I don't understand why you'd forsake it in FFXIV but find it ok in FFXI, or do you not enjoy Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis, BCNM, KSNM, and all the other instanced content in FFXI?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:40am by ThePacster



yes that stuff is instanced but just watch this is gonna take on a whole new level from those in ffxi.

anyway have fun in the game but I will not be logging in ever again, not that anyone cares or is willing to admit the same issue I did since all it does is equal rate downs.


It hasn't even been implemented and you're already jumping to conclusions... why? Why is it going to take on a whole new level compared to FFXI when as already stated, we have open world Notorious Monsters? Why is it so hard to believe they may *gasp* add more open world Notorious Monsters?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:55am by ThePacster
#14 Mar 03 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Never will we get the rush from camping a NM for hours on end to see it finally pop even if we did not get claim, it was still a blast


It was a rush sitting around doing "nothing" for 3-6 hours waiting for something to pop and not get to fight it? We muts have differing opinions on what fun is. FFXI is also stuffed to the brim with instanced content, so I don't understand why you'd forsake it in FFXIV but find it ok in FFXI, or do you not enjoy Salvage, Limbus, Nyzul, Einherjar, Dynamis, BCNM, KSNM, and all the other instanced content in FFXI?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 9:40am by ThePacster


There is something to be said about walking through a world and running into a bigger than life NM and fighting him, and getting a drop that you weren't expected. With instance only, that will never happen.

I have been in random pick up parties for Roc, the giant scorp (forgot his name already), Tiamet, and a few other HNMs friends had run into. We have a blast with it. I have also randomly walk through the glacier and rain into Baist, and had a dragon killing contest, and things like that.

That is the fun in it. I think there is a great loss when it's so sculpted and planned that people waste hours or days trying for these. To me they have always been sort of like a lottery (then again the only drop I have ever wanted from an NM that I never got was the spelunker's Hat, also known as the anti-o-hat).

And stopping by an NM camp that you want to kill, dropping a couple of spawns, then killing it, or losing claim and moving on with your life is not horrible. Scale-wise it is the same as performing an instanced dungeon. To me that's the biggest joke of it. You spend an hour fighting mobs through an instanced dungeon so one person may get something they are fighting for, to either have them denied due to failure, or no drop, or they get their item, and now you have to do it for the next 14 people before you can get something, only for everyone to get tired of doing it, and never bother going back...

While I didn't mind joining in instanced events, I did truly mind the fact that of the 2+ years I did it when it was introduced into 11, I literally got ZERO drops. Instances in 11 had a very bad tendency of promoting elitist, and selfishness. Good friends I had known for years were ninja looting items because they were tired of the politics. Then again, I know a lot of older players were pretty done with TOA totally altered the game.

And yes, BCNMs are good, and so was Dynamis. They were well balanced Instances that allowed people a chance to get an item in a non-competitive way. You had to farm (e.g. get beastman seals or gil) roughly the same amount to gain access, then you had to win the fight on top of it, which was typically 1000x harder then the original NM (talking about BCNM/KSNM). Dynamis was a beauty in itself (until it too became a victim of a pyramid scheme). The chance of anyone getting their ultimate weapon in less then 5 years was nearly impossible. Only die-hard focused players could do it. Add onto that the gear and the high level crafting items, you suddenly have a very fun alternative to leveling, and a combination of creative strategies to succeed, and collect as much as you can. It was good for doing twice a week for 2 hours. Though now-adays I could never do that during the week.

To say that everything in the game should be instanced is sad. It does take away from the feel of the game. However, I can see that, while I am probably not alone in feeling this way, we are definitely the minority.

Hopefully I can find the content they add engaging and fun. While I am truly biased against instances being the holy grail, I already like the world, and what it has to offer, I will have to check out the new instances...

Oh, and for those who say that leves are instances... I can't stand leves, grinding tends to be more fun, and all and all less time consuming. I do them when I can simply because you can't argue with the exp pay-off.
#15 Mar 03 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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I am very happy to see these changes implemented, and cannot wait to get on some "side missions"!!

As for the NM camping from 11, I have never played 11 and from what some describe as the fun parts, I am glad that I haven't. I have no intrest in sitting there waiting for the mob to pop and then having to compete with other harcore players- as someone called themselves, for the chance at the NM. What I am missing is some strategic battles that require more than just spam attacks and heals and the occasional BR. And something along the lines of a dungeon crawl would be right up my alley. But I guess I can continue to play DDO for that.
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#16 Mar 03 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
[quote=ThePacster][quote]
To say that everything in the game should be instanced is sad. It does take away from the feel of the game. However, I can see that, while I am probably not alone in feeling this way, we are definitely the minority.

Hopefully I can find the content they add engaging and fun. While I am truly biased against instances being the holy grail, I already like the world, and what it has to offer, I will have to check out the new instances...

Oh, and for those who say that leves are instances... I can't stand leves, grinding tends to be more fun, and all and all less time consuming. I do them when I can simply because you can't argue with the exp pay-off.


Man, there are open world NM already..... So your theory about everything going to instanced not gonna happen.


Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:07am by cquintela
#17 Mar 03 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Default
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o come on you guys can get my other two posts to sub-default just for good measure, since I am just implying my opinion that does not agree with the majority and that's how it works right?
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#18 Mar 03 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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And stopping by an NM camp that you want to kill, dropping a couple of spawns, then killing it, or losing claim and moving on with your life is not horrible.


For the record, I'm not an anti-open world NM/X/Y/Z/whatever person, so I hope no one is getting the wrong impression of my posts, but this stuck out to me. I played FFXI for about 6 years, and in that time, any NM that was worth wasting time on, you couldn't simply waltz into the camp and drop a few nearby enemies and expect to get a shot at it, at least the groups I competed against were never that casual.

People camped these places and waited 3-6 hours at a time for spawns and kept records of their times of death so they could pinpoint the exact moment and sometimes position of where it was going to appear so everyone could mash their taunt buttons and hope whoever had the best ping got it assuming someone using bots didn't beat you to it.

Having said that, I'll repeat myself again in saying this game already has open world Notorious Monsters, so in my opinion its foolish to think this game is going to become centralized on instanced content and ignore the open world system they've already set the foundation for with the release of these massive creatures.

People really should have a little patience and see things through before throwing in the towel since what's on paper isn't always reflected directly into implementation. (and no this is not directed at any particular individual, it's a general statement)
#19 Mar 03 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
o come on you guys can get my other two posts to sub-default just for good measure, since I am just implying my opinion that does not agree with the majority and that's how it works right?


Good news if you are never gonna log into the game again the karma system on a forum dedicated to a game you dont play shouldnt effect you to much.
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#20elevencharle, Posted: Mar 03 2011 at 9:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) exactly but it is still funny.
#21 Mar 03 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote from Yoshi's letter about having instanced dungeons, "There's also the added merit of enabling the level design team to work with a clear theme in mind, and create much more engaging and challenging content."

This is what I want to see most!
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#22 Mar 03 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
elevencharle wrote:
not that anyone cares


Your right, no one cares that you are complaining about FFXIV doing exactly what FFXI did, even though you claim that they are doing what every other game did, even though FFXI already did it. Instanced fighting was rampant in FFXI. SE has already shown that there will be Open-World NMs so get off the whabulance and see the meaning behind what SE is actually saying. People want more instanced "NM"s. This doesn't translate into: "We are going to make every NM an instance." This means that the people want more BCNM/KSNM etc... I think SE is intelligent enough to know that the only way they might instance open world monsters, is by letting the spawn-timer and claim be open-world, then once a player/party claims it then they enter an instance to fight it. His would prevent other Parties from curing etc etc, making the fight potentially harder.

But did you think about any of that? No, you jumped straight on the WoW Clone bandwagon to assumptionville. SE IS making FFXIV more like FFXI every patch. You of all people have no business complaining. So go ahead and stop playing, later on down the road you'll realize how silly that was and come back.

Sorry for the rant. I am just getting tired of reading ignorant posts from oblivious people.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:29am by StateAlchemist2
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#23 Mar 03 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
There is something to be said about walking through a world and running into a bigger than life NM and fighting him, and getting a drop that you weren't expected. With instance only, that will never happen.


This didn't happen in the 4 years that I played FFXI. Very few worthwhile NMs were up without being claimed, and virtually no soloable, worthwhile NMs were up and unclaimed.

Quote:
Scale-wise it is the same as performing an instanced dungeon.


It's not, because when you have your end game in open world, it becomes competitive. I don't want to play a PVPVE game here; I don't want to have to compete with the entire god **** server in order to progress my character. Luckily, it seems I'm in the majority here and people figured out that instanced content is vital to the success of the MMO.

Quote:
either have them denied due to failure, or no drop, or they get their item, and now you have to do it for the next 14 people before you can get something, only for everyone to get tired of doing it, and never bother going back...


How is this different than open world HNMs again? The people who got their stuff from Tiamat/Cerberus/whatever stopped being regulars when they got their items. You're right, it's no different than instanced content.

Quote:
While I didn't mind joining in instanced events, I did truly mind the fact that of the 2+ years I did it when it was introduced into 11, I literally got ZERO drops. Instances in 11 had a very bad tendency of promoting elitist, and selfishness. Good friends I had known for years were ninja looting items because they were tired of the politics. Then again, I know a lot of older players were pretty done with TOA totally altered the game.


That's a mix of bad instance design and bad LS loot policy. Instances implemented after Limbus were generally more forgiving and I had a blast in those.



Quote:
To say that everything in the game should be instanced is sad. It does take away from the feel of the game. However, I can see that, while I am probably not alone in feeling this way, we are definitely the minority.


Nobody ever said that the game should be 100% instanced. This is a strawman that people keep pulling out, which I can smash for you right now by mentioning the fact that FFXIV ALREADY HAS OPEN WORLD NMs. "Instances" does not automatically translate to WOW's method of delivering PVE content via instanced loot holes only. ****, even that is an imaginary analysis, because not all of WOW's PVE content is found in instanced dungeons. I'm not sure exactly where you're pulling this doomsday scenario from.

You know what the real tragedy of FFXI's open world system was? The rare NMs that were hard to pop or found in gated areas were never touched. I tried to get groups going for Voluptuous Vivian and nobody gave enough of a **** about it, because it was out of the way and a lot of the time you didn't even know if you were in the right window. Tried camping Voluptuous Vilma, some douche always came along to kill the morbol before it could transform into the NM. Tried doing any NMs in the Tavnazia areas (esp. Riverne)? lmfao get out of here, nobody wants to or can go there.
#24elevencharle, Posted: Mar 03 2011 at 9:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) thank you for caring :)
#25 Mar 03 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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I'm all for instanced stuff. I don't care if theres roaming NMs too, put them in for the people who like to camp stuff. As long as the difference in quality of drops is fairly small, I've no complaints. For me though, if I arrange things with my friends to log on friday night for a couple hours, I want to be able to do what I logged in to do. I'm not going to log into a game in order to wait for the chance to do something, thats a game I won't play anymore.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:35am by KujaKoF
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#26 Mar 03 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
elevencharle wrote:
also i never said WoW but if you need that for a reason to disagree with my opinion then yes i think this game is going to slowly turn into a WoW based game.


How is FFXIV turning into a WoW based game? Because of instanced content? FFXI came out 2 Years before WoW and had a plethora of instanced content. It's not because of FFXIV's battle system, or it's graphics, or Lore, or or... oh wait! I know! It must be the NPC question mark markers... oh wait! FF used those long before WoW...

So please, explain to me how FFXIV is becoming "more like" WoW, and not more like Final Fantasy?

Edit: Go ahead and rate down, if a few sub-default posts is what it takes to pull this persons head out of the ground then so be it.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:49am by StateAlchemist2
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#27 Mar 03 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
How is FFXIV turning into a WoW based game? Because of instanced content? FFXI came out 2 Years before WoW and had a plethora of instanced content. It's not because of FFXIV's battle system, or it's graphics, or Lore, or or... oh wait! I know! It must be the NPC question mark markers... oh wait! FF used those long before WoW...

So please, explain to me how FFXIV is becoming "more like" WoW, and not more like Final Fantasy?


People have been hating on WOW so much, that they try to find a WOW analogue for any new feature proposed, so they have a reason to reject it.
#28 Mar 03 2011 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Antharl wrote:
Quote from Yoshi's letter about having instanced dungeons, "There's also the added merit of enabling the level design team to work with a clear theme in mind, and create much more engaging and challenging content."

This is what I want to see most!


Same here. Hopefully the content is varied and interesting and not just a bunch of tank-and-spank fights. :P
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#29 Mar 03 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
o come on you guys can get my other two posts to sub-default just for good measure, since I am just implying my opinion that does not agree with the majority and that's how it works right?


If it makes you feel any better, I'm rating you down because you're whining like a child, not because of your opinion.
#30 Mar 03 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriously, did you people wanting a return to that system actually camp anything beyond Leaping Lizzy? It wasn't fun. Sitting for a couple of hours at the minimum (once you were sure of the windows, that was a best case scenario) only to have a bot claim your target was never fun, and pretty much turned me off going back to FFXI when I quit a couple of years back.

To be fair though, I can see the first person to say it was fun almos has 3 rank 50 classes, which is great but simply suggests to me you don't mind investing a fair amount of time which sadly I cannot or at least am not willing to.

"Getting drops on the first kill is just boring" is a grinder's mentality and not something that's reflected in the whole community. I'm not saying it sure be easy by any means. A series of highly challenging fights resulting in a reward of some kind at the end (even if it's not the best available) seems like a good and rewarding way to set up instances. Even if, for example, you simply got materials to craft items that'd be good enough for me what with companies coming soon and it generally not being too hard to find someone to craft something.
#31 Mar 03 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
Dlaqev wrote:
Seriously, did you people wanting a return to that system actually camp anything beyond Leaping Lizzy? It wasn't fun. Sitting for a couple of hours at the minimum (once you were sure of the windows, that was a best case scenario) only to have a bot claim your target was never fun, and pretty much turned me off going back to FFXI when I quit a couple of years back.

To be fair though, I can see the first person to say it was fun almos has 3 rank 50 classes, which is great but simply suggests to me you don't mind investing a fair amount of time which sadly I cannot or at least am not willing to.

"Getting drops on the first kill is just boring" is a grinder's mentality and not something that's reflected in the whole community. I'm not saying it sure be easy by any means. A series of highly challenging fights resulting in a reward of some kind at the end (even if it's not the best available) seems like a good and rewarding way to set up instances. Even if, for example, you simply got materials to craft items that'd be good enough for me what with companies coming soon and it generally not being too hard to find someone to craft something.


An this is the nice thing about adding more instanced content like BCNM/KSNMs, because it offers a wide variety of strategies and items, while still allowing for open-world NMs just like in FFXI. It offers a balance. Casual and Hardcore players alike will all have something to do. I still can't understand why anyone would jump to conclusions and think it has to be one or the other. FFXI had both. So will FFXIV.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 11:02am by StateAlchemist2
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#32 Mar 03 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:

An this is the nice thing about adding more instanced content like BCNM/KSNMs, because it offers a wide variety of strategies and items, while still allowing for open-world NMs just like in FFXI. It offers a balance. Casual and Hardcore players alike will all have something to do. I still can't understand why anyone would jump to conclusions and think it has to be one or the other. FFXI had both. So will FFXIV.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 11:02am by StateAlchemist2


Agreed. I would like to see both, and think that we will have both options. Just so long as they don't go overboard with one or the other I think everyone can be happy.
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#33elevencharle, Posted: Mar 03 2011 at 10:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) LMAO you people get your panties in a bunch way to easy. we are all assuming what is going to happen with this game since as always SE posts any statements in a way that can mean many things. so i guess we will just have to wait and see, or at least you will since i could care less.
#34 Mar 03 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
elevencharle wrote:
LMAO you people get your panties in a bunch way to easy. we are all assuming what is going to happen with this game since as always SE posts any statements in a way that can mean many things. so i guess we will just have to wait and see, or at least you will since i could care less.

*last post on these FFXIV forums so say what you want*


/goodbye
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#35 Mar 03 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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elevencharle wrote:
LMAO you people get your panties in a bunch way to easy. we are all assuming what is going to happen with this game since as always SE posts any statements in a way that can mean many things. so i guess we will just have to wait and see, or at least you will since i could care less.

*last post on these FFXIV forums so say what you want*


I can pretty much guarantee you're still going to read this. You're the one who immediately claimed the decline of FFXIV and that instances would ruin it, I'd say that suggests that you certainly do care.

Also, "I could care less" makes no sense in the context you're using it, just sayin'.
#36 Mar 03 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
An this is the nice thing about adding more instanced content like BCNM/KSNMs, because it offers a wide variety of strategies and items, while still allowing for open-world NMs just like in FFXI. It offers a balance. Casual and Hardcore players alike will all have something to do. I still can't understand why anyone would jump to conclusions and think it has to be one or the other. FFXI had both. So will FFXIV.


I totally agree with this. Open world NM's are great, but for those people with families and jobs who don't get to play as much, they were just a pain in the rear.

As for the rush of "stumbling upon a NM, killing it, and getting some awesome loot you weren't expecting".... how often did you actually "stumble" onto an NM in FFXI? In 6 years of playing, every time I walked through S. Gustaburg I went roundabout to see if I ran into Leaping Lizzie. How many times did I claim it? Once. Same thing with V.E., and Huu Muju... any NM worth killing was claimed within seconds of popping.

It sounds like they plan on having a good mix, and both sets of people will be able to get their fill of NM camping. Personally, I will take the instanced dungeon route over the open world route... at least then when I log on I or someone in my party are guaranteed to get something out of it, instead of wasting our time to watch someone else claim what we have been waiting for hours for.
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#37 Mar 03 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
7 posts
JJCheebone wrote:
I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.


Was thinking the same thing :)
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#38 Mar 03 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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2,214 posts
Wolfums wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
There is something to be said about walking through a world and running into a bigger than life NM and fighting him, and getting a drop that you weren't expected. With instance only, that will never happen.


This didn't happen in the 4 years that I played FFXI. Very few worthwhile NMs were up without being claimed, and virtually no soloable, worthwhile NMs were up and unclaimed.

Quote:
Scale-wise it is the same as performing an instanced dungeon.


It's not, because when you have your end game in open world, it becomes competitive. I don't want to play a PVPVE game here; I don't want to have to compete with the entire god **** server in order to progress my character. Luckily, it seems I'm in the majority here and people figured out that instanced content is vital to the success of the MMO.

Quote:
either have them denied due to failure, or no drop, or they get their item, and now you have to do it for the next 14 people before you can get something, only for everyone to get tired of doing it, and never bother going back...


How is this different than open world HNMs again? The people who got their stuff from Tiamat/Cerberus/whatever stopped being regulars when they got their items. You're right, it's no different than instanced content.

Quote:
While I didn't mind joining in instanced events, I did truly mind the fact that of the 2+ years I did it when it was introduced into 11, I literally got ZERO drops. Instances in 11 had a very bad tendency of promoting elitist, and selfishness. Good friends I had known for years were ninja looting items because they were tired of the politics. Then again, I know a lot of older players were pretty done with TOA totally altered the game.


That's a mix of bad instance design and bad LS loot policy. Instances implemented after Limbus were generally more forgiving and I had a blast in those.



Quote:
To say that everything in the game should be instanced is sad. It does take away from the feel of the game. However, I can see that, while I am probably not alone in feeling this way, we are definitely the minority.


Nobody ever said that the game should be 100% instanced. This is a strawman that people keep pulling out, which I can smash for you right now by mentioning the fact that FFXIV ALREADY HAS OPEN WORLD NMs. "Instances" does not automatically translate to WOW's method of delivering PVE content via instanced loot holes only. ****, even that is an imaginary analysis, because not all of WOW's PVE content is found in instanced dungeons. I'm not sure exactly where you're pulling this doomsday scenario from.

You know what the real tragedy of FFXI's open world system was? The rare NMs that were hard to pop or found in gated areas were never touched. I tried to get groups going for Voluptuous Vivian and nobody gave enough of a sh*t about it, because it was out of the way and a lot of the time you didn't even know if you were in the right window. Tried camping Voluptuous Vilma, some douche always came along to kill the morbol before it could transform into the NM. Tried doing any NMs in the Tavnazia areas (esp. Riverne)? lmfao get out of here, nobody wants to or can go there.


I fought Imdegud or whatever his name is (I always called him I am de good). And many others on a whim, but I was also one of the people who setup my linkshell runs through the COP missions. And we always set them up to get as many people to go as we could, and in a way that allowed everyone to progress as evenly as possible.

Those were nice (COP zones) in that the dungeons were not instanced, but the boss fights were. That added a bit of comradery and general fun, with very little competitiveness (never had a problem getting my maps to all of those zones).

As for open world NMs in 11, almost every one had not only their open world version, but they also had an instanced version allowing people to choose which ones they fought.

As for the open world NMs 14, I admit, I have run into one so far, and had the best 1 second fight of my life against it (and it's 15 friends). Note to self: Aegis boon only works if it procs... But, 5 open world NMs vs how many currently instanced NMs? At rank 30, I have already fought a dozen instanced NMs, and only seen one HNM that spanked me silly.

I'm not meaning to complain, though in hindsight it definitely seems that way. I will go with their decision on this because my single-mindedness is definitely clouded in exactly what you mentioned
Quote:
That's a mix of bad instance design and bad LS loot policy. Instances implemented after Limbus were generally more forgiving and I had a blast in those.


And on a side-note, I did overstate myself when I said
Quote:
To say that everything in the game should be instanced is sad. It does take away from the feel of the game. However, I can see that, while I am probably not alone in feeling this way, we are definitely the minority.


It was more to a point then to fact. I don't expect them to put everything in an instance, it's just a reaction on a feeling.

And on a final note, I would never compare anything to WOW for the most part, simply because I have never played it, and have absolutely no idea about anything other then what people say. I might reference some point or statement made, but I really do try and avoid talking about it. As I am very biased against it, and have little to no interest, which I know is silly, since I haven't even looked up a single detail about the game, and only know second-hand knowledge about it.
#39 Mar 03 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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130 posts
Kurt72 wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.


Was thinking the same thing :)


What happens if you have all the features described above but not the time? Shall I be punished for loving a game but having a job to attend to everyday for at least 8hours and then a family to take care of? Aren't we paying the same money to SE to access the content of the game? Don't you think that it makes sense that casual and hardcore gamers can access to the same gears?
Not even taking into account that if a game is casual friendly, casual players will then take more time for the same achievements so that if it well designed, giving more money to SE in the long run rather than a hardcore gamer that will do everything to be done fast and then quit because there is nothing more to do. However, if the casual feels like there are things he cannot achieve and then elitism is all around (what? you don't have this amazing gear then I'd rather choose someone with better gears, ie hardcore player) then they will just leave and in the long run, it will be even worse for the game.


Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 12:47pm by Carmillia
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yfaithfully wrote:
To add to those, if you can get this DeLorean up to 88 MPH, you'll be able to play this game in 2019 when they've finally implemented mounts.

#40 Mar 03 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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Carmillia wrote:

What happens if you have all the features described above but not the time? Shall I be punished for loving a game but having a job to attend to everyday for at least 8hours and then a family to take care of? Aren't we paying the same money to SE to access the content of the game? Don't you think that it makes sense that casual and hardcore gamers can access to the same gears?


I don't really consider it a punishment, but it really is what I expect. I don't expect to have the same gear or have done all the things that someone who has twice the time I have can get.

If they have more time, they get more stuff. I am really ok with that. I just want to have fun getting the stuff I want to get. And if that means sit there and kill two thousand coblyns to get an evil death coblyn of doom to spawn and teach me who's my daddy, so be it!

But seriously, it's not about how much you pay, and it's not about how much time you have, it's about what you value in the game.
#41 Mar 03 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If they have more time, they get more stuff


Of course I disagree: If they have more time, they get stuff faster in my opinion but everyone should be able to access the same content otherwise, give me a 'casual gamer' discount monthly fee :D

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 12:52pm by Carmillia
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yfaithfully wrote:
To add to those, if you can get this DeLorean up to 88 MPH, you'll be able to play this game in 2019 when they've finally implemented mounts.

#42 Mar 03 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
What do I have to gain from a video game that justifies the pain?


Pain.
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#43 Mar 03 2011 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Carmillia wrote:
Kurt72 wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.


Was thinking the same thing :)


What happens if you have all the features described above but not the time? Shall I be punished for loving a game but having a job to attend to everyday for at least 8hours and then a family to take care of? Aren't we paying the same money to SE to access the content of the game? Don't you think that it makes sense that casual and hardcore gamers can access to the same gears?
Not even taking into account that if a game is casual friendly, casual players will then take more time for the same achievements so that if it well designed, giving more money to SE in the long run rather than a hardcore gamer that will do everything to be done fast and then quit because there is nothing more to do. However, if the casual feels like there are things he cannot achieve and then elitism is all around (what? you don't have this amazing gear then I'd rather choose someone with better gears, ie hardcore player) then they will just leave and in the long run, it will be even worse for the game.


Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 12:47pm by Carmillia


It's a case if art imitating life. If you put the time in at your job you will most likely be rewarded more so than a co-worker that does less. I truly feel people that have the time to spend (which I don't as it were) are infinitely more deserving of better gear. Would I like to spend 55 hours a week playing? Sure. And I'd also like to be 6'7" and play in the NBA. It's not going to happen due to my own limitations and I accept that. I will not begrudge anyone the spoils of hardcore gaming. If you feel you deserve the same stuff while working 1/8 as hard, then you better hope FFXIV has the bonanza marble lottery, which was the only prayer I had to obtain the gear that was unobtainable for me by conventional methods. Maybe you should pack up MMOs and play Fallout New Vegas or Elder Scrolls V when it's released. This way your attitude of entitlement will be alleviated since you will be able to have the best gear like everyone else that bought the game.

The bottom line is that people that put in the time and effort deserve something unattainable by the casual player masses. Of course this is my opinion and has no bearing on FFXIV as I am sure the devs have something planned to address this issue in the future.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:00pm by JJCheebone
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#44 Mar 03 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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ThePacster wrote:


For the record, I'm not an anti-open world NM/X/Y/Z/whatever person, so I hope no one is getting the wrong impression of my posts, but this stuck out to me. I played FFXI for about 6 years, and in that time, any NM that was worth wasting time on, you couldn't simply waltz into the camp and drop a few nearby enemies and expect to get a shot at it, at least the groups I competed against were never that casual.



Once they made a lot of the drops rare/ex it was easy to get a shot at NMs. I've killed leaping lizzy tons before (no drop) and there was almost never any competition. I've actually done what the poster referred to a lot. I don't have the patience to camp NMs for long so I would just kill a few lizards... kill lizzy if she popped and go back to real life.

No biggie.

That said, I never did land kings etc.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#45 Mar 03 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
SolidMack wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
What do I have to gain from a video game that justifies the pain?


Pain.


**** yeah I love pain and frustration.
#46 Mar 03 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
Carmillia wrote:
Kurt72 wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.


Was thinking the same thing :)


What happens if you have all the features described above but not the time? Shall I be punished for loving a game but having a job to attend to everyday for at least 8hours and then a family to take care of? Aren't we paying the same money to SE to access the content of the game? Don't you think that it makes sense that casual and hardcore gamers can access to the same gears?
Not even taking into account that if a game is casual friendly, casual players will then take more time for the same achievements so that if it well designed, giving more money to SE in the long run rather than a hardcore gamer that will do everything to be done fast and then quit because there is nothing more to do. However, if the casual feels like there are things he cannot achieve and then elitism is all around (what? you don't have this amazing gear then I'd rather choose someone with better gears, ie hardcore player) then they will just leave and in the long run, it will be even worse for the game.


Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 12:47pm by Carmillia


Actually Carm no casual and hardcore should not be accessing the same gear at all. There should be gear available that is good and say a bit harder to get. will you be functional in any content you partake in? well yes. But for those who have time and resources to invest in really rare hard to get items should be reserved for the hardcore player. Even in offline games casual players get the gear and items they need to beat the game and explore the content. But the hardcore ones did the work to say limit break break their damage multipliers, get the hardest to get summons, final weapons, get the knights of the round materia. Those people spend countless hours because its there for them and its their choice.

Since this is an MMO there need to be those types carrots for both populations to strive for. I am the type of person who has a job, a family, friends, and do not have 1 million hours to dedicate to gaining certain items or gear sets but I can **** well try.

Yes we are paying or will be paying to play XIV but I don't expect to have every single high demand item. Am I going to be the highest DD mage or best healing mage probably not but i will be effective and use tools I have acquired. Having gear sets and items overly attainable creates two things. One lack of interest and people only playing during updates, and two it creates a sense of entitlement which breads to selfish and very childish behavior.

Based on that Yes I strongly believe your logic is extremely flawed.
#47 Mar 03 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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JJCheebone wrote:
I definitely see the reasoning for instancing certain NM battles but I do hope they have the pop timer, camp-able NMs that drop amazing gear/items to cater to the hardcore crowd. The way I see it is if you have the time, patience and aspiration to have the ultimate gear, time sink activities such as competitive camping should be available and rewarded appropriately.

This is dangerous reasoning, not necessarily wrong, but dangerous. Without proper balancing, making "Awesome but pretty hard to get" gear will tip the seesaw from there to "Necessary but pretty hard to get" gear. To take an example from FFXI: for a very long time, there was a very strong sentiment that if you did not have X/Y/Z gear, you were not good enough yet to do much of the endgame content. A lot of which was extremely difficult for casual players to get, like O-kote, seriously, how many of you went 20+/0 on those. This was particularly prevalent in XXk exp/hour parties. The fallout was that casual players virtually could not play quite a bit of content.

From what I personally have observed, in order for the community to support "Awesome but hard to get" gear, you need it to fall into one of two categories. It needs to be either so absurdly hard to get that even the hardcore players can't complain if someone doesn't have it (i.e. Relic from FFXI), or the game needs to be set up in such a way that players do not mind a few week links in their party. Abyssea from more recent FFXI has shown, for instance, that even the most elitist players are willing to put up with the worst of players if it doesn't impact their bottom line too much.

Personally, I think the best solution is to give players plenty of options to get similar levels of gear (not identical, but similar). In that way, players that don't like camping NMs can still get their O-kote, they just need to go do that instance that drops a similar item, it just takes more runs. Not an ideal solution, but it's a complex problem.
#48 Mar 03 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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213 posts
I'm sure they'll balance it out similar to 11. They'll add more open world NMs as well as instanced events. They know 100% of the people don't want to do instances 100% of the time. That would be stupid.
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#49 Mar 03 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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i think wow had a good concept, just made it too easy.
their version of "necessary to have..." endgame gear can eventually be achieved by anyone and everyone, it just took time because you build up the currency to eventually buy that same gear, however if you were lucky youd get it as a rare drop just like in FFXI.

the problem i had is that it didnt take long enough for to earn that currency to buy the gear, which ended up making that gear less desirable to me. if SE implimented something similar but more realistic to achieve in terms of "awesome rare gear" then id be all for it.
if you can only play for two hours every weekend, sure you can wear the same gear as me, but ill be enjoying it alooot sooner XD is how i see it.
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