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Why all the whining about instanced content?Follow

#1 Mar 03 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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First of all, NM spawns are already in the game. I highly doubt they'd be moved into instances.

Second, I don't understand how people can hate instances so much when instances were already in FFXI.

Third, I REALLY don't understand how people can consider 24 hour spawn-camping a superior situation to being able to enjoy content any time you want.

I used to be "teh hardcore" when it came to MMOs, but that was when I was young, single and had all the time in the world to grind for extremely low drop-rate items. I don't have that kind of time anymore, and neither do the majority of people who would play FFXIV, you know, by paying money to keep it alive.

Instanced content was not created by Blizzard, and it's not going to do anything but ensure that players who have very little time can still log on and experience solid content in a reasonable amount of time.

Camping for 24 hours, waiting for a rare mob to spawn, is NOT a good way to determine whether or not a player should get to experience certain content. In fact, it's a terrible way. It's designing content for a minuscule group of players, ensuring that most players will never see it.

Instancing does not automatically transform the game into a theme-park MMO (a term I had coined for WoW years before I started seeing it on the internet, FYI). It allows players who are still gamers to enjoy content, even with a limited amount of time to play.

Why is that such a bad thing?
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#2 Mar 03 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Where is the whining? Yay instances. Yay story. Yay "!" mark, it's like chocobo digging in FF13. Yay Final Fantasy. Booo Mechanicaly Advanced Empire... I'm gonna take your Megatech Armor and hit you in the face.

Edited: Yay instances in moderation. I as well enjoy the open world concept for Randoms.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:11pm by SlayerXero

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:11pm by SlayerXero
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#3 Mar 03 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Accusing players of whining is a good way to get rate downs. I learned that the hard way.

Just cause people have different preferences and opinions doesn't make them whiners. I think that people have a right to be disheartened if they feel like their preferred playstyle is going to be eliminated in a game they otherwise like. OP has a habit of assuming because he likes something a certain way that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

I didn't vote in favour of heavy instancing, because I actually like seeing randoms, and non-instancing has really worked out for me in other games... like in XI dying somewhere random while trying to solo some content, and having someone come across me and raise me (for example). That said, I didn't really compete for content with other people, so I never saw the problems with open world content.

I'm going to wait and see and reserve my judgment (easy to do because I am having fun elsewhere) - but I think people have a right to express their disappointment - especially given the methodology of the decision-making we are seeing here. I am all for democracy, but I don't think it always results in the best decisions. We'll see.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#4 Mar 03 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
See what I mean Destian?

You make an excellent well thought out post, which for one, I fully agree with. You state your case and back it up with your personal experience and in-game observations.

But the challenging nature of the thread title undermines your goal, which I imagine is to persuade others to reconsider instanced content for the reasons you are describing.

Instances are cool as an option. No one wants them to replace the great open world feeling that makes FFXIV sociable and expansive. But as an option, why not?

Sooner ar later, there will be content of every type in FFXIV.
#5 Mar 03 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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it does not matter about the "whining" they obviously did not whine enough as they are in the minority according to the poll. So we need to move on because its coming and in a big way
#6 Mar 03 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Default
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because traditional instances suck and none of the 'reasons' you give address my concerns which I have repeated again and again and not posting in here again for the millionth time. i was reluctant to post it all again in the last thread
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#7 Mar 03 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Accusing players of whining is a good way to get rate downs. I learned that the hard way.


I appreciate the concern, but I think people need to be called out on objectionable behavior and a meaningless karma system isn't going to stop me from doing just that.

No, unnecessary complaining and threats of leaving the game are WHINING. I'm not going to sugarcoat that when people are doing something that is, for all intents and purposes, stupid and pointless.

Let me recount a tale of the Team Fortress 2 forums...

Every time a change comes around, people fly into a ******* tizzy about how it's the end of the game, everything is ruined, etc. The act of calmly reassuring these people has absolutely no affect on their overall tendency toward flying into the same fit every time there's a change.

You know what DOES work? Tough love.

We're all intelligent human beings here. Are our egos REALLY so weak, so utterly fragile, that no one here could handle being told straight up that what they're doing is unnecessary whining?

Complaining about instanced content, a change that solves a massive number of issues that will otherwise make this game unplayable for a huge portion of players (who are necessary to keep the game running via their monthly subs), is ridiculous, as is quitting the game over the addition of instanced content.

I tell it like it is and I don't sugarcoat it. That's all there is to it.
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#8 Mar 03 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to say I agree 100%

We finally get quests added to the game and a bunch of new information and rather than excitement and planning and theorizing whats the forums filled with?

Quest markers ruin immersion and make this a wow clone.
and
Instances are terrible omg I don't want a WoW clone


I'm disappointed.

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#9 Mar 03 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:

I appreciate the concern, but I think people need to be called out on objectionable behavior and a meaningless karma system isn't going to stop me from doing just that.


Your aggressive, dismissive and pointless posts are much more "objectionable" than someone expressing their sincere disappointment.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#10 Mar 03 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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SabastianSeraph wrote:
I have to say I agree 100%

We finally get quests added to the game and a bunch of new information and rather than excitement and planning and theorizing whats the forums filled with?

Quest markers ruin immersion and make this a wow clone.
and
Instances are terrible omg I don't want a WoW clone


I'm disappointed.



Quests good, but quest markers can be done differently and
instances are the assumption now for any new content/dungeon as per yoshi-p's own words, unless the translation is bad. I dont mind an instance or two but not 'most of it'
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#11 Mar 03 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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In this topic: people have opinions on people having opinions.
#12 Mar 03 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
In this topic: people have opinions on people having opinions.

stop whining:p

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:14pm by Metin
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#13 Mar 03 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Third, I REALLY don't understand how people can consider 24 hour spawn-camping a superior situation to being able to enjoy content any time you want.


Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances? I only read how people didn't want to see that unique aspect of MMOs to be eliminated. Some people do have the time and enjoy the competition. It's painfully obvious you don't like it. So don't do it. End of story.
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#14 Mar 03 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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JJCheebone wrote:
Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances? I only read how people didn't want to see that unique aspect of MMOs to be eliminated. Some people do have the time and enjoy the competition. It's painfully obvious you don't like it. So don't do it. End of story.


This entire topic.
#15 Mar 03 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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JJCheebone wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Third, I REALLY don't understand how people can consider 24 hour spawn-camping a superior situation to being able to enjoy content any time you want.


Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances?


I did in another thread too
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#16 Mar 03 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances? I only read how people didn't want to see that unique aspect of MMOs to be eliminated. Some people do have the time and enjoy the competition. It's painfully obvious you don't like it. So don't do it. End of story.


This entire topic.


Yeah I read and no one said "camping NMs are better than instances." A lot of it was people stating why they like camping.
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#17 Mar 03 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Third, I REALLY don't understand how people can consider 24 hour spawn-camping a superior situation to being able to enjoy content any time you want.


Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances?


I did in another thread too


I stand corrected. I apologize for my ignorance. Still, if you don't like instances, don't do them. If you don't like camping NMs don't do it.
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#18 Mar 03 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
I felt compelled to adapt this and post it for FFXIV. I thinks it sums it up quite well.

The stages of patch note (game change) grief:

1. Denial : FFXIV rumor mentioned - Misquote producer/developer, state they don't understand the game, flame them wildly in disbelief at their statement.

2. Anger : Notes on Fan sites - Rage about the more substantial rumor. Claim it will destroy the game and that people will leave in droves.

3. Bargaining : Patch notes posted on Lodestone - Post threads about it. Suggest other ways Square Enix might do the change instead. Offer to lose some spell/ability that you don't care about.

4. Depression : Patch gone live - Become sullen about the change. Insist on playing another game for a few days. Contemplate quitting game entirely.

5. Acceptance : Patch was fine - Return to playing the game. Discover that the change was a minor nerf and there was a substantial buff elsewhere. Adapt to it and continue.
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WoW: Echo Isles (Retired) Nylia 90 Druid, 88 Paladin, 87 Warlock, 85 Priest, 85 Shaman, 85 Mage, 85 Hunter.
Aion (Retired)


#19 Mar 03 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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JJCheebone wrote:
Metin wrote:
JJCheebone wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
Third, I REALLY don't understand how people can consider 24 hour spawn-camping a superior situation to being able to enjoy content any time you want.


Where in any post did anyone say 24 hour spawn camping was better than instances?


I did in another thread too


I stand corrected. I apologize for my ignorance. Still, if you don't like instances, don't do them. If you don't like camping NMs don't do it.


The problem arises with the rewards. If you make the rewards for instances and open-world endgame content evenly balanced, most people will gravitate towards instances primarily as a method of character advancement because competition isn't nearly as fierce, and the same is true with making instance rewards superior. If you make open-world HNMs drop superior loot, the focus of endgame will shift towards them because, at the end of the day, people want a chance at the best stuff, rather than simply access to the same content.
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#20 Mar 03 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Your aggressive, dismissive and pointless posts are much more "objectionable" than someone expressing their sincere disappointment.


My posts call people out on behaving like little children. That alone is superior to people who are behaving like little children.

People love to be drama queens on forums. They love to throw temper-tantrums and whine about how the game is being ruined for one reason or another.

Why should anyone be gentle toward that kind of behavior? And why is my calling people out on that abhorrent behavior somehow worse than the behavior itself?

Furthermore, why are YOU so miffed? I don't see YOU whining about it.

Why are you getting offended on behalf of other people (who don't deserve defending)?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:56pm by TheRealDestian
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#21 Mar 03 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Lady Alynis wrote:
I felt compelled to adapt this and post it for FFXIV. I thinks it sums it up quite well.

The stages of patch note (game change) grief:

1. Denial : FFXIV rumor mentioned - Misquote producer/developer, state they don't understand the game, flame them wildly in disbelief at their statement.

2. Anger : Notes on Fan sites - Rage about the more substantial rumor. Claim it will destroy the game and that people will leave in droves.

3. Bargaining : Patch notes posted on Lodestone - Post threads about it. Suggest other ways Square Enix might do the change instead. Offer to lose some spell/ability that you don't care about.

4. Depression : Patch gone live - Become sullen about the change. Insist on playing another game for a few days. Contemplate quitting game entirely.

5. Acceptance : Patch was fine - Return to playing the game. Discover that the change was a minor nerf and there was a substantial buff elsewhere. Adapt to it and continue.


Well-put, and this is EXACTLY what happens on the TF2 forums as well.
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#22 Mar 03 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
The problem arises with the rewards. If you make the rewards for instances and open-world endgame content evenly balanced, most people will gravitate towards instances primarily as a method of character advancement because competition isn't nearly as fierce, and the same is true with making instance rewards superior. If you make open-world HNMs drop superior loot, the focus of endgame will shift towards them because, at the end of the day, people want a chance at the best stuff, rather than simply access to the same content.


Very true, and people need to appreciate the fact that there are MANY players who will be able to enjoy instances but will never down a NM in their entire time playing the game, and SE wants their money too.
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#23 Mar 03 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:

The problem arises with the rewards. If you make the rewards for instances and open-world endgame content evenly balanced, most people will gravitate towards instances primarily as a method of character advancement because competition isn't nearly as fierce, and the same is true with making instance rewards superior. If you make open-world HNMs drop superior loot, the focus of endgame will shift towards them because, at the end of the day, people want a chance at the best stuff, rather than simply access to the same content.



The beauty of lots of content and lots of options for end game gear.... is that everyone can have their slice of their favorite flavor of the pie. Even if we are not there yet, we are definetly on that path. It absolutely, cannot be either one way or the other. There must be both in this game unless they want to be a niche game. But with their budget and reputation, there is no reason that they can't create a game that has things for ALL types, in droves!
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#24 Mar 03 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
I had posted this in response to the editoral but perhaps its better posted here. "I hope to see more of the difficulty selection like there are currently on guild leves. I really enjoyed games like DDO when they first came out because dungeons gave you the option of solo or party. I did not always have to build a group to get things done. Of course better rewards came from group dungeons but if I was presses for time it didn’t feel as though I was missing content. For me one of the biggest drawbacks to games like Warcraft was the ability to solo many things in the pve world but be forced to group to get a dungeon quest done."

They can easily satisfy the hardcore needs as well as the casuals under a difficulty selection system. I honestly do not mind the lesser reward if it means that I am at least still experiencing things. At the same time though I do not want to see the type of dumbing down that was done in WoW. If you want to have the super uber cool rare item then it better be super uber hard to get. That does not mean I want them to be dynamis relic hard but some sort of medium like current weapons quest in ffxi are like.
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Aion (Retired)


#25 Mar 03 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Non Instanced dungeons or fights doesn't mean 24hr timers or staring at screen for 3 hours. If the windows are capped from 1-2 hours tops. Even a casual could participate in that experience. This type of content appeals to the adventurer who appreciates the thrill of the hunt and competing against others.
That said, just because we all think the game should target casual only. Why not give the hardcore a few nm with excessive random pop conditions? As long as the rewards aren't the best of it's class. It wouldn't promote zombie camping.

Instanced content can be cool to if done moderately. If too much of the game becomes instanced the game could start to feel like lobbies. That is usually the concern open worlders have against instances in PvE and PvP. Instances have some problems usually as well too. Usually drop rates tend to be lower and farming the entry items can become grindy in itself. Instances like Dynamis can become ewwie if they place large cooldowns on them. People start to try and fight or cut turns in entering.

I suppose people get put on guard. Because from what I can remember in the poll on instances. It is quite vague and leaves alot of room for reader interpretation. Just saying.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 3:40pm by sandpark
#26 Mar 03 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:

I used to be "teh hardcore" when it came to MMOs, but that was when I was young, single and had all the time in the world to grind for extremely low drop-rate items. I don't have that kind of time anymore, and neither do the majority of people who would play FFXIV, you know, by paying money to keep it alive.


I've seen more than one person use this argument and it holds no water. If anyone's whining its the few now middle aged people who can't be as hardcore as they used to. Most people who actually play the game play as much as they play XI.

Sorry to pop your bubble but not everyone is that old, or has that many responsabilities and so little free time.
But the **** with them, right? You're saying the game's design has to adapt to your schedule.

Apparently MMORPGs have attracted no new people in the last 7 years so the demographic has gone up in age? Get real.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 3:54pm by MajidahSihaam
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#27 Mar 03 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:

I used to be "teh hardcore" when it came to MMOs, but that was when I was young, single and had all the time in the world to grind for extremely low drop-rate items. I don't have that kind of time anymore, and neither do the majority of people who would play FFXIV, you know, by paying money to keep it alive.


I've seen more than one person use this argument and it holds no water. If anyone's whining its the few now middle aged people who can't be as hardcore as they used to. Most people who actually play the game play as much as they play XI.

Sorry to pop your bubble but not everyone is that old, or has that many responsabilities and so little free time.
But the **** with them, right? You're saying the game's design has to adapt to your schedule.

Apparently MMORPGs have attracted no new people in the last 7 years so the demographic has gone up in age? Get real.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 3:54pm by MajidahSihaam



Apparently, MMORPGs haven't attracted a new kind of crowd in the last 7 years, so they're still stuck with the "hardcore" crowd that can throw in 6 hours a day. Get real.

The huge majority of people that are interested in MMOs today are not the same kinds of people that were interested in MMOs a decade ago. Maybe they don't have the time to spend hours a day gaming. Maybe they don't WANT to spend hours a day on a single game, but prefer multiple games. Who cares?

Times have changed, guy. Sorry to burst the bubble YOU'RE in, but just because you and your buddies can make a 2nd job out of an MMO, it doesn't mean that the game shouldn't cater to those who don't.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 4:03pm by Wolfums
#28 Mar 03 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
I've seen more than one person use this argument and it holds no water.


It holds pretty much ALL the water.

For every one hardcore player willing to stay up all night playing an MMO, there are probably 30 people who would play it casually.

Quote:
But the **** with them, right? You're saying the game's design has to adapt to your schedule.


I'm saying the game can do both, and that the addition of instanced content isn't going to destroy the hardcore content.

There are still NMs and there will no doubt be more NMs, so why would anyone complain about the addition of instanced content?

Quote:
Apparently MMORPGs have attracted no new people in the last 7 years so the demographic has gone up in age? Get real.


Adults without copious amounts of time who would casually play MMOs far outnumber everyone else.

Again, instanced content doesn't mean the removal of 24 hour NM campfests. What grounds does ANYONE have to complain (unless they secretly hope the game will die due to lack of subs, I mean...)?

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 4:12pm by TheRealDestian
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#29 Mar 03 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:

I used to be "teh hardcore" when it came to MMOs, but that was when I was young, single and had all the time in the world to grind for extremely low drop-rate items. I don't have that kind of time anymore, and neither do the majority of people who would play FFXIV, you know, by paying money to keep it alive.


I've seen more than one person use this argument and it holds no water. If anyone's whining its the few now middle aged people who can't be as hardcore as they used to. Most people who actually play the game play as much as they play XI.

Sorry to pop your bubble but not everyone is that old, or has that many responsabilities and so little free time.
But the **** with them, right? You're saying the game's design has to adapt to your schedule.

Apparently MMORPGs have attracted no new people in the last 7 years so the demographic has gone up in age? Get real.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 3:54pm by MajidahSihaam



Apparently, MMORPGs haven't attracted a new kind of crowd in the last 7 years, so they're still stuck with the "hardcore" crowd that can throw in 6 hours a day. Get real.

The huge majority of people that are interested in MMOs today are not the same kinds of people that were interested in MMOs a decade ago. Maybe they don't have the time to spend hours a day gaming. Maybe they don't WANT to spend hours a day on a single game, but prefer multiple games. Who cares?

Times have changed, guy. Sorry to burst the bubble YOU'RE in, but just because you and your buddies can make a 2nd job out of an MMO, it doesn't mean that the game shouldn't cater to those who don't.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 4:03pm by Wolfums


Is this information fact or your opinion based on experience? If it's fact, I would definitely be interested in reading it. Can you post a link to your information, please?
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#30 Mar 03 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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JJCheebone wrote:
Is this information fact or your opinion based on experience? If it's fact, I would definitely be interested in reading it. Can you post a link to your information, please?


It's based upon the obscene number of WoW players who never played an MMO before WoW.

Ultimately, I don't like WoW, but it proved that there are casual players out there and that they're willing to play MMOs that give them a sense of progress without requiring mountains of time.

WoW also has content for both the casual and hardcore, which is why FFXIV can certainly do both.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 4:51pm by TheRealDestian
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#31 Mar 03 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Very true, and people need to appreciate the fact that there are MANY players who will be able to enjoy instances but will never down a NM in their entire time playing the game, and SE wants their money too.


is there something incorrect-gameplay if you dont care about downing NMs? HNMs in FFXI was just something for me to do when i was bored since our LS gave us options on endgame content to participate in, and the reason why i considered it as just something to do is because the HNMs didnt pose any actual strategy, it was literally try to stay alive and kill it as fast as you can, oh and watch out for links just in case.
since FFXI ive played other newer MMOs and RPGs, and bosses and NM equivalents are plain out more complicated and nothing like fighting Faf/Nid, i remember standing by his damned leg bored out of my mind and i really hope they dont repeat such fights in this game.
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#32 Mar 03 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My posts call people out on behaving like little children. That alone is superior to people who are behaving like little children.

People love to be drama queens on forums...

This made me lol. Pot, kettle, blah blah etc.
#33 Mar 03 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Let me recount a tale of the Team Fortress 2 forums...

Every time a change comes around, people fly into a ******* tizzy about how it's the end of the game, everything is ruined, etc. The act of calmly reassuring these people has absolutely no affect on their overall tendency toward flying into the same fit every time there's a change.

Au contraire, mon frere - IMHO in their efforts to make TF2 "better" (which they arguably did) they alienated players like me who loved it for its simplicity. I used to play 2Fort every day, but once I felt like I had to start grinding out parts and gear and play achievements to get new weapons I got kinda sick of it. The simple appeal of 4 hours of non-stop, 16 on 16 2Fort was tarnished. I did end up going back after the initial introduction of achievement weapons, but soon all the updates seemed like they were specifically aimed at some kind of game nerd in-group of forum junkies, and not players at large. I haven't played in maybe 6 months--I want a simple, commitment-free FPSer, and right now America's Army is it for me.
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#34 Mar 03 2011 at 8:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The OP has a point.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=129918621256237068&page=2

For the 1.16 patch. Just look at how negative most of the comments are.
Really people? The whiners KNOW who they are. If you're not one just move along if you just disagree that's fine too. It doesn't make you a whinny baby.

But, there are people who are whiny on these forums. And unfortunately they tend to be the loudest. In a lot of cases don't state their cases very well. This really hurts people who share the same view but are more articulate about their opinion.


So in saying that I think it's fair to direct thread or post to them on a specific topics. If it doesn't apply to you then there shouldn't be a problem. Because no matter the opinion or topic those people also represent us who share the opinion.


With that said though. The OP should be ready to defend his opinion and do his best to extend respect to those who counter his view with an intelligent post.




#35 Mar 04 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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sparkytenks wrote:
So in saying that I think it's fair to direct thread or post to them on a specific topics. If it doesn't apply to you then there shouldn't be a problem. Because no matter the opinion or topic those people also represent us who share the opinion.


Exactly.

I have no idea why so many people insist upon getting upset about this when A) the topic doesn't apply to them and B) the behavior they're defending shouldn't be defended.
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