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The limitations of democracyFollow

#1 Mar 03 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, first of all, I think Yoshi-P is doing a very good job at communicating with the playerbase. That is incredibly important. Part of that work is listening to us about what we think would make a great game, HOWEVER I really really really worry about them deciding everything by poll.

Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.

In some ways, I feel the same about letting the playerbase decide everything about this game, versus letting the developers to do their work. This game is seriously ill, and I am not sure the passengers on the plane know the best way to heal it.

Honestly, I'm hopeful that at the very least it will be more of a blend... and I hope that the developers will consider minority opinions in their decision-making too.

I have a lot of experience with the limitations caused by letting polling dictate your positions, and generally, it has caused nothing but messes from my perspective.

That said, I've still got my crysta, and I will eventually give this game another chance.

I just wonder if anyone out there has the same reservations I do about deciding everything by poll.
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#2 Mar 03 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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Once again I totally agree with you m8
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#3 Mar 03 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Have we seen any evidence to suggest that Yoshi-P is deciding everything by poll? Or is the poll simply to get an understanding of what players want so it can be factored into decision-making?
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#4 Mar 03 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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85%
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#5 Mar 03 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
85%


Mind explaining that?

Even if 85% of the people on the plane said that kissing my feet and licking my bum was the best way to revive me from a heart attack, I would rather have the 1 doctor decide what was best.

Now obviously, this is different, because people are talking about what THEY want to do in the game or what kind of game they like playing... but if the developers do everything according to the polls, and the game ends up still sucking, what then?

I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a feel for where the playerbase is at, but there is also something to be said about having a strong cohesive vision for the game and implementing it. If what we get is a dog-breakfast of features that don't fit together - even if those are the most popular features - I don't think it will be a fun game.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#6 Mar 03 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Have we seen any evidence to suggest that Yoshi-P is deciding everything by poll? Or is the poll simply to get an understanding of what players want so it can be factored into decision-making?


This. I've seen no indicators that say he's going to blindly implement things based on poll results.
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#7 Mar 03 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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/disagree

Democracy isn't a system that only works until you are on the losing side of a vote. It reflective the collective feelings of the populace, whether good or bad. The polls help Yoshi-P see how the players, both new and old, feel about certain issue of the game. He's smart enough to know that the minority opinion still matter but at the same time he can't let the choices of a few stop him from making changes that would please the majority. I think he is wise enough to know how to please the majority with alienating the minority.
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#8 Mar 03 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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dyvidd wrote:
I think he is wise enough to know how to please the majority with alienating the minority.


I hope so.

It would be nice to see Yoshi say so directly though - like about instanced content, talking about how he is ALSO going to make sure there is lots to keep people in the open world so that it doesn't seem completely empty or become a pointless space that you simply use to walk between dungeons.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#9 Mar 03 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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As if the developers aren't aware of the stuff everyone already knows.

They know exactly what to do to fix the game they are asking our opinion to help us be involved, they're only going to tweak things in regards to the data they feign shock at.
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#10 Mar 03 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Simool wrote:
85%


Mind explaining that?

Even if 85% of the people on the plane said that kissing my feet and licking my bum was the best way to revive me from a heart attack, I would rather have the 1 doctor decide what was best.

Now obviously, this is different, because people are talking about what THEY want to do in the game or what kind of game they like playing... but if the developers do everything according to the polls, and the game ends up still sucking, what then?

I don't think there is anything wrong with getting a feel for where the playerbase is at, but there is also something to be said about having a strong cohesive vision for the game and implementing it. If what we get is a dog-breakfast of features that don't fit together - even if those are the most popular features - I don't think it will be a fun game.



Just 85%...nothing too profound. We all know the number and its the driving force for what Yoshi is trying to accomplish. The game is being changed dramatically...like it or not. Yoshi is preparing a "new FFXIV" to be re-reviewed whenever they feel its ready for the PS3 release. It does suck for those enjoying the original version...but the original version will not pay for servers or salaries.

All I can say is reserve judgment until about a year from now after the dust has settled. That's what I'm doing.
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#11 Mar 03 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Barring the fact that providing an entertainment service is completely incomparable with providing medical service to a dying patient, that's an incorrect analogy. A better analogy would be:

You fall unconscious.
The doctor hasn't gotten his degree yet, so he resorts to asking the passengers about what they think is wrong with you.
The doctor then weighs the results and does whatever seems best.

But again, you're comparing entertainment service to medical service. People know what they're entertained by, and know what to request to be entertained; they're the experts, and the service providers have to model their service to satisfy. People DON'T know what's causing their medical problems, so they go to an expert and he provides both the service and the request.
#12 Mar 03 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:

All I can say is reserve judgment until about a year from now after the dust has settled. That's what I'm doing.


Yeah, that is my plan too. I'm willing to give it a shot, I would just like to see the developer throw a couple bones to the minority too - not to agree to go against what most people want, but to acknowledge that he sees the limitations of just "majority rules."
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#13 Mar 03 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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... the flaw in the analogy was already pointed out but the point still is valid

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:18pm by Metin
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#14 Mar 03 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
I am actually glad to see the polls happen. If you want to make an omelet then your going to have to break some eggs in the process. No matter what method they used to decide what changes are being made you will always have a minority that is unhappy. Still I prefer this as opposed to other games that made changes only based on who yelled the loudest through there forums. You just need to trust that the new dev team has the common sense not to mess the game up based on poll data.
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#15 Mar 03 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"
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#16 Mar 03 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Feeling pretty confident about Yoshi's decisions. The reason for this confidence... His humour to describe how he's on the same level as us, fear of flying, and yet he is the producer for building a game (FF series title HUGE) to please however many thousands of people. For this, intelligence, I am confident in Yoshi's ability to Produce and properly lead his production staff.

Quote:
Well, aside from the fact I never said the first thing (or at least I don't remember saying the first thing) I think there is a difference between being in touch with your playerbase and as some posters put it "blindly following polls."


I have a feeling he's in touch with his player base

Quote:
You guys love your melee attackers, don't you? I guess it's to be expected, considering Matsui (the battle team leader) tells me that melee attackers have been the most popular classes in FFXI, too. Personally, when it comes to MMOs, I'm more of a ranged man myself. I've logged more than my fair share of play time online, and have played every kind of class, but whenever asked what my main is, I always say caster first. At any rate, we'll be taking the results from Question 2 into consideration when making system changes to help encourage party-based play.





Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:57pm by SlayerXero
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#17 Mar 03 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"


If admins could be rated up, I would. Best summary of what's happening right now. :)
#18 Mar 03 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
Wolfums wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"


If admins could be rated up, I would. Best summary of what's happening right now. :)


Let me quote myself from another thread.

StateAlchemist2 wrote:
You touch on a good point. People will complain for the sake of complaining. If the apple is red, people will complain and say they want blue apples. After a while they decided to change apples to blue, and then all of a sudden people are saying "Blue apples are stupid. Apples have been red forever, why would you do such a thing!?"

Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing that will ever change that.


As you can see I am in full agreement of Thayos' funny, but entirely true remark.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:40pm by StateAlchemist2
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#19 Mar 03 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"


Well, aside from the fact I never said the first thing (or at least I don't remember saying the first thing) I think there is a difference between being in touch with your playerbase and as some posters put it "blindly following polls."

I am willing to give Yoshi the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, but I honestly am interested to see if there are others out there who have had negative experience with poll-based decision making.

It is like "who wants to be a millionaire." I mean seriously - how many times has the audience picked the wrong answer to the question? If I was in charge of a multi-million dollar enterprise I would be wary of those odds.

As for people saying that "we know best what we like" I would say there is actually tons of research that shows what people think will make them happy, actually doesn't.

Quote:
In a study conducted by UBC Psychology professor Elizabeth Dunn, students were each given 10 dollars and divided into two groups. One group was told to do whatever they want with the money and the other group was told to spend it on someone else. She found that people in the group told to spend the money on another person scored higher on the life satisfaction scale than their counterparts. Members of the other group could have spent the money on someone else, but most chose not to thinking their life satisfaction would increase more if they spent it on themselves.


http://dunn.psych.ubc.ca/files/2010/12/Feeling-Good-about-Giving.pdf

That's just one recent study - there are tons more out there. So, yes, even when it comes to entertainment, experts often know better than we do, what makes a game fun. Where's Kachi to talk about the psychology of this?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#20 Mar 03 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Simool wrote:

All I can say is reserve judgment until about a year from now after the dust has settled. That's what I'm doing.


Yeah, that is my plan too. I'm willing to give it a shot, I would just like to see the developer throw a couple bones to the minority too - not to agree to go against what most people want, but to acknowledge that he sees the limitations of just "majority rules."


that cannot be your plan. this is your second "why yoshi why?" letter. you are clearly already making assumptions and judging based on your own fears that one day roegadyn will shout "for the horde!" when they level up.

once upon a time i was told i was wrong for judging a newly released game because it was clearly released too early. now you're judging the same game just as harshly for changes that have yet to exsist.
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#21 Mar 03 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.
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#22 Mar 03 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.


Made me smile, rate up.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#23 Mar 03 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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theSubligaravenger wrote:

this is your second "why yoshi why?" letter.


My OP is not a letter, and nowhere does it say "why yoshi why?"

How is it you can write, but you can't read?

theSubligaravenger wrote:
now you're judging the same game just as harshly for changes that have yet to exsist.


I am not actually judging the game at all. I am discussing the methodology which the developers are using to make their decisions. There is a difference.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#24 Mar 03 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.


Then, DAMMIT MAN, SAVE THIS MMO!!!!
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#25 Mar 03 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Regardless of the polls taken, at the end of the day the developers will decide what is best. I feel they're mainly using the polls to give them some direction.

Are people really ******** that the developers are finally LISTENING to us? God **** you people, what the @#%^ will make you happy.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 2:06pm by Onionthiefx
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#26 Mar 03 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Ok, first of all, I think Yoshi-P is doing a very good job at communicating with the playerbase. That is incredibly important. Part of that work is listening to us about what we think would make a great game, HOWEVER I really really really worry about them deciding everything by poll.

Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.


Your example is a bad one. In your example, it's only YOUR life. In FFXIV, it's all of ours. I like my vote being counted.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 3:07pm by Louiscool
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#27 Mar 03 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.


This.

I will push this further: your experience makes you a good and reliable doctor, but we would all be doctors on the plane, more or less experienced, with various ideas for healing the poor guy.

We must not assume that the majority of players is retarded because a very vocal and spectacular minority throws insanities on internet forums.

Still, I can see the OP perspective, but I think I have a better trust in the voters, and also in the way the developers are going to incorporate the polls results.
#28 Mar 03 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I have seen no evidence that Yoshi-P is going to blindly follow the poll (this is a disclaimer). That being said, I kind of agree with Olorinus, taking an amalgam of ideas that everyone loves and shoving them together a good game does not make. At a certain point, just taking polls and asking for thoughts from the general populous is going to stop being a good thing and start being a bad thing. Sometimes, developers are going to have to make an unpopular decision in order to make the game better as a whole. To use a superlative example, let's say that 87% of the players clamored that they wanted everything in the game to drop 100% of the time because it was taking forever to get that one item they really want. Seeing that 87% of the player base wants full drops, the developers implement it; chaos and discontent ensue when everyone has everything in the game within three weeks.

Now, that is obviously an exaggeration, but the premise works for other areas of game design. That isn't even getting into the fact that - despite some evidence - Square Enix employees have been making games for a very long time and have quite a bit of experience to draw on.

I think taking polls to get a feel for the pulse of the player base is a great idea - especially on a game in this condition - but I think the point that Olorinus is trying to make is that it's only a start, and Square Enix needs to show some degree of free will from here on.
#29 Mar 03 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.


The analogy is flawed (as analogies always are) because in this case it's like the people on the plane have gained insight on how to treat a heart attack patient through experience... And then there's the doctor that knows everything there is to know about human anatomy and how to treat the patient perfectly in theory and what exactly can be done to achieve the best percentage of survival. So in this case if the doctor who has less field experience would treat the patient he would mess up the procedure in practice. And if the people decided what to do they wouldn't know everything they should know to be sure that the patient has as high chance of survival as possible. Sure they could save him but his brains could be damaged severely.

Therefore the best possible solution is collaboration.

Now, that said, although I don't always agree with what 'the doctor' is thinking it is clear to me that he isn't making decisions strictly based on what the poll tells him. You can see this especially in the combat poll letter. And that's what he should do. In the end he knows more than we do (things like the resources they have in their disposal, the deadline and the cost of developing a new feature or adjusting an existing feature) and honestly said, those issues mean as much (and more) as any experience. I can and will criticize his decisions based on what he has told us and the experience I have, but it should be always kept in mind that there are things we do not know and are not supposed to know that affect this game just as much as the things we do know. Realizing that, there can be only faith that Yoshida is a competent doctor, even though to some (like me) it may not look like that is the case initially.

All that said, I agree with you that complete democracy, as far as this game is concerned, is not beneficial. However, I don't agree with you that Yoshida is developing the game based on that ideal. While I might have agreed with you based on the first poll, the second poll shows me the balls that a producer should have in my opinion.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 11:37pm by Hyanmen
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#30 Mar 03 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I view the polls as letting the developers know what areas they need to focus on first. In your analogy, wouldn't you want to tell the doctor where it hurts before he goes poking around trying to fix things?
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#31 Mar 03 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I felt in any way that the game was being pulled away from an artist/experts great vision and being watered down by the masses, I would agree with you. However, the creator, or leading mind, tanaka was put out because people didn't like what he was producing. They didn't pull in yoshi to design his own game, they brought him in to mold what they had into something people would pay for. And thats all he's doing, asking people what people are willing to pay for.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 4:03pm by KujaKoF
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#32 Mar 03 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
Personally, I have seen no evidence that Yoshi-P is going to blindly follow the poll (this is a disclaimer). That being said, I kind of agree with Olorinus, taking an amalgam of ideas that everyone loves and shoving them together a good game does not make. At a certain point, just taking polls and asking for thoughts from the general populous is going to stop being a good thing and start being a bad thing. Sometimes, developers are going to have to make an unpopular decision in order to make the game better as a whole. To use a superlative example, let's say that 87% of the players clamored that they wanted everything in the game to drop 100% of the time because it was taking forever to get that one item they really want. Seeing that 87% of the player base wants full drops, the developers implement it; chaos and discontent ensue when everyone has everything in the game within three weeks.

Now, that is obviously an exaggeration, but the premise works for other areas of game design. That isn't even getting into the fact that - despite some evidence - Square Enix employees have been making games for a very long time and have quite a bit of experience to draw on.

I think taking polls to get a feel for the pulse of the player base is a great idea - especially on a game in this condition - but I think the point that Olorinus is trying to make is that it's only a start, and Square Enix needs to show some degree of free will from here on.


Good point. I don't think we will see many more polls.

There are 2 major flaws in the game : content and playability (more specifically the battle system and incentives for party play), which were the core of the previous polls.

Now if you look at the questions, they are all very vague and very few of them directly point toward a specific mechanic to implement future changes.

I think it was a way of comforting themselves regarding the fanbase main way of thinking and that they will soon come out with a detailed plan on future changes with an approximate time frame.
#33 Mar 03 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"



lmao!! this 100%... SE is correct to go with majority because no matter what hey choose people will still make threads like this.....
#34 Mar 03 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm pretty sure someone else has said it above but I'm pretty sure these polls are just to get a feel for what needs to be changed. Hopefully the devs will realize what is and what not is possible to implement without breaking the game...again lol.
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#35 Mar 03 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry Olo but the whole Millionaire ask the audience thing doesn't really work in this case. As players we are all very well aware of what is wrong with this game, and what needs fixing most. Yoshi knows this and has taken the steps to make the players happy. All they have done so far is boosted SP and soon they will add some quests. Not exactly bowing to the whims of the masses, IMO.
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#36 Mar 03 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Personally, I have seen no evidence that Yoshi-P is going to blindly follow the poll (this is a disclaimer). That being said, I kind of agree with Olorinus, taking an amalgam of ideas that everyone loves and shoving them together a good game does not make. At a certain point, just taking polls and asking for thoughts from the general populous is going to stop being a good thing and start being a bad thing. Sometimes, developers are going to have to make an unpopular decision in order to make the game better as a whole. To use a superlative example, let's say that 87% of the players clamored that they wanted everything in the game to drop 100% of the time because it was taking forever to get that one item they really want. Seeing that 87% of the player base wants full drops, the developers implement it; chaos and discontent ensue when everyone has everything in the game within three weeks.

Now, that is obviously an exaggeration, but the premise works for other areas of game design. That isn't even getting into the fact that - despite some evidence - Square Enix employees have been making games for a very long time and have quite a bit of experience to draw on.

I think taking polls to get a feel for the pulse of the player base is a great idea - especially on a game in this condition - but I think the point that Olorinus is trying to make is that it's only a start, and Square Enix needs to show some degree of free will from here on.


Precisely. This is exactly what I was getting at. Thanks for putting it better than I could put it myself.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#37 Mar 04 2011 at 3:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.


And the expert in this case is SE? I'm going to hazard a guess that you've managed to miss every FF game since 11. The so-called experts have done a fairly awful job.
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#38 Mar 04 2011 at 4:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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If the game were already in a stable condition, I would be wary of polls made by SE.

As others have said though, Yoshi is using the results as an indication of what needs the most work, and what work should be completed before others.

I'm still not entirely sure FFXIV is headed in the right direction, but I'll trust that SE is at least working the results of the poll into their planning and implementation in the best way they see fit.
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#39 Mar 04 2011 at 5:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.


Then, DAMMIT MAN, SAVE THIS MMO!!!!


Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a game developer!
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#40 Mar 04 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
Quote:
Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.


And the expert in this case is SE? I'm going to hazard a guess that you've managed to miss every FF game since 11. The so-called experts have done a fairly awful job.



FF12 Amazing, FF13 Amazing, FF Dissidia Amazing, FF Crisis Core - Fun, I don't have a Wii so i'm not sure about the FF's for that.

Here's my analogy. We are all doctors on the plane. Each of us has our theories of what is wrong with the patient based on our previous diagnostic experience. Will we ever stop bickering long enough to heal the patient? I am thoroughly enjoying FF14 at the moment. I don't think I could quit if I wanted to, as I'm too excited about what new changes are going to take place.
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#41 Mar 04 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"


I'm going to miss the admins on this forum when the official one launches. :(


Quanta wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
I like to think my 10+ years of playing MMOs makes me the doctor in your scenario.


Then, DAMMIT MAN, SAVE THIS MMO!!!!


Dammit, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a game developer!


I was hoping someone would get that... :)

Edited, Mar 4th 2011 11:40am by TheRealDestian
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#42 Mar 04 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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175 posts
SlayerXero wrote:
Caia wrote:
Quote:
Democracy is great, but if I had a heart attack on a plane and I had the choice between people holding a vote about what the best way to treat me was and then doing that, or letting the only doctor on board decide, I would rather have the expert make the decision.


And the expert in this case is SE? I'm going to hazard a guess that you've managed to miss every FF game since 11. The so-called experts have done a fairly awful job.



FF12 Amazing, FF13 Amazing, FF Dissidia Amazing, FF Crisis Core - Fun, I don't have a Wii so i'm not sure about the FF's for that.

Here's my analogy. We are all doctors on the plane. Each of us has our theories of what is wrong with the patient based on our previous diagnostic experience. Will we ever stop bickering long enough to heal the patient? I am thoroughly enjoying FF14 at the moment. I don't think I could quit if I wanted to, as I'm too excited about what new changes are going to take place.


This is a matter of opinion, I thought they were both quite terrible, compared to FF's of the past.
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#43 Mar 04 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
22 posts
I think that if they are only listening to the polls/player the game will end up being a strange offspring of every other mmo out there.
There will be the : I want it more like WOW
There will be the : I want it more like FFXI
There will be the : I want it more like UO
There will be the : I want it more like EQ
There will be the : I want it more like <insert name here>

This result in a very bland and uninspired creation with a mix of every thing already existing.
I think that the poll/player feed back is god for one thing:
We did this new thing, do you like it : Yes,No ?
Not a : What do you want ?
The designer need to have a heading, a place where they want to bring the game. They should use the feedback to know if the new idea is a success or a failure.

One example of that is :

Player : The game is boring.
SE : What do you want ?
Player : Something to do... QUEST, QUEST, QUEST !
SE : Here are quest.... go kill 5 bat and bring me 5 bat wings.
SE : You have what you asked... happy now ?
Player : heu... No.... still boring.

They should not ask the players what to put in the game... They should hire good game designer and have them think about something new and interesting.
To all those saying : "Do you have a better idea?"
I answer : No, and I did not apply for the game designer position either.



#44 Mar 04 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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12,363 posts
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
If the game were already in a stable condition, I would be wary of polls made by SE.

As others have said though, Yoshi is using the results as an indication of what needs the most work, and what work should be completed before others.

I'm still not entirely sure FFXIV is headed in the right direction, but I'll trust that SE is at least working the results of the poll into their planning and implementation in the best way they see fit.


This is where I'm sitting.
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"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#45 Mar 04 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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12,363 posts
TheRealDestian wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Oct. 2010: "why is SE so out of touch? Whaaaaaaaa!!!"

Five months later...

"Why does SE listen to us so much? Whaaaaaaaaa!!!"


I'm going to miss the admins on this forum when the official one launches. :(


You know you can post both here and there right? Smiley: wink
____________________________
"Choosy MMO's choose Wint." - Louiscool
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist.
Keyser Soze - Ultros
Guide to Setting Up Mumble on a Raspberry Pi
#46 Mar 04 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
175 posts
ElFrereDeLautre wrote:
I think that if they are only listening to the polls/player the game will end up being a strange offspring of every other mmo out there.
There will be the : I want it more like WOW
There will be the : I want it more like FFXI
There will be the : I want it more like UO
There will be the : I want it more like EQ
There will be the : I want it more like <insert name here>

This result in a very bland and uninspired creation with a mix of every thing already existing.
I think that the poll/player feed back is god for one thing:
We did this new thing, do you like it : Yes,No ?
Not a : What do you want ?
The designer need to have a heading, a place where they want to bring the game. They should use the feedback to know if the new idea is a success or a failure.

One example of that is :

Player : The game is boring.
SE : What do you want ?
Player : Something to do... QUEST, QUEST, QUEST !
SE : Here are quest.... go kill 5 bat and bring me 5 bat wings.
SE : You have what you asked... happy now ?
Player : heu... No.... still boring.

They should not ask the players what to put in the game... They should hire good game designer and have them think about something new and interesting.
To all those saying : "Do you have a better idea?"
I answer : No, and I did not apply for the game designer position either.





Thats what they did when they released FFXIV to begin with, that worked out great right? There is a difference between using the player base to guide the game in a direction worth taking it, and changing the game to suit every complaint. You say they should ignore the player base and do what they feel is best for the game, I say if they ignore us, then I won't be playing FFXIV much longer.
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#47 Mar 04 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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175 posts
Edit: double post.

Edited, Mar 4th 2011 1:09pm by Alkerr
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#48 Mar 04 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
22 posts
Alkerr wrote:

Thats what they did when they released FFXIV to begin with, that worked out great right? There is a difference between using the player base to guide the game in a direction worth taking it, and changing the game to suit every complaint. You say they should ignore the player base and do what they feel is best for the game, I say if they ignore us, then I won't be playing FFXIV much longer.


Two things:

1- I did not say ignore us... I said use our feedback to know is the features a good or not.
They should not replace the need for a good and creative game designer with polls.
2-
Alkerr wrote:
I say if they ignore us, then I won't be playing FFXIV much longer.

If you want my opinion ( and you probably don't ) No one will be playing FFXIV for much longer.
#49 Mar 04 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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175 posts
ElFrereDeLautre wrote:
Alkerr wrote:

Thats what they did when they released FFXIV to begin with, that worked out great right? There is a difference between using the player base to guide the game in a direction worth taking it, and changing the game to suit every complaint. You say they should ignore the player base and do what they feel is best for the game, I say if they ignore us, then I won't be playing FFXIV much longer.


Two things:

1- I did not say ignore us... I said use our feedback to know is the features a good or not.
They should not replace the need for a good and creative game designer with polls.
2-
Alkerr wrote:
I say if they ignore us, then I won't be playing FFXIV much longer.

If you want my opinion ( and you probably don't ) No one will be playing FFXIV for much longer.


So you want SE to take a game that is already hanging by a thread, make changes and THEN ask the player base if its good or not? Pretty backwards.

For the sake of argument lets say SE did exactly what you suggest and did a poll. Say everyone hated it, what then? Now they need to backtrack even further when they could have done it in the first place.
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#50ElFrereDeLautre, Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 12:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes. And hopefully not everyone hates it. ( <- that is why they need to hire a good game designed with new ideas )
#51 Mar 04 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
I keep thinking that I would do EXACTLY what Yoshi-P and his team is doing. They really seem dedicated to thinking through every suggestion, planning and double-checking before implementation.

They are gathering every piece of information possible before making decisions. I can respect that.
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