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Sidequests: not very goodFollow

#152 Mar 04 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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That leads us to the next question: How does a designer know if he has a good idea until he actually gets the position of lead game designer? The previous lead game designer also believed he had a good idea. Not only him, but the majority of the previous team ignored the community back in beta testing that the game was not ready whatsoever because they thought they had a, "good idea," for us all. What I put in bold suggests is to create this game yet again without listening to the feedback of the community; just like the beta phase.


One solution to this question would be to staff someone knowledgeable about recreation psychology :P You know, someone who can analyze what game elements are appealing to players, the things that make a game successful, and make recommendations based on that understanding of player psychology.

There's actually a fairly simple set of principles underlying good game design, but SE is still taking a trial and error approach to the problem. Well no surprise, sometimes their trials are errors.

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You do know they can do all that without taking the servers down, right? Taking the servers down would be such a bad PR move that even if they were able to turn it into the perfect MMO they wouldn't be able come back.


Actually, taking the servers down is probably the best thing they could do. Obviously their existing playerbase doesn't think so, but honestly, people who are still playing the game will probably pick it right back up if they shut down the servers and reopen them later. At the rate they're going, they're probably only going to lose players from their existing playerbase, and they have almost no chance of getting any kind of player influx from nonplayers at this point.

Sometimes when a product is really substandard, the best thing for a company to do is say, "Yeah, our product sucks, but we're going to give you something completely different." e.g., Domino's Pizza, CocaCola Classic, Hardee's-- these were very successful marketing moves. Making little fixes here and there just doesn't attract players. It's why unveiling is such a common marketing tactic that you probably don't even think about it. A total relaunch will pique interest and make people curious about the game. A substantial portion of the MMO consumer population doesn't even want to play an MMO if they can't start at launch, or at least be assured that they'll be in a large wave of players. Psychologically, the only way most people will give this game another chance is if it does go caterpillar-cocoon-butterfly, disappears for a while, and emerges as something attractive.

As a caveat to this, if they revamp the battle system substantially and it's successful (and I have doubts about their ability to do this, but we'll see), and have a successful PS3 release, this could be preferable to a rebranding effort.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#153 Mar 04 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Restyoneck wrote:
I just don't get it.
I'm starting to realize that no matter what they do to improve this game, some people are just going to complain regardless.

I'm in a pretty good LS. Very top-end heavy, organized, and productive. People from previous MMO's that have seen all, done all, and gotten all.
Not one member complained about the side quests. They all ran around happily going from one to the next, and no one complained the rewards were not super-mega- gundam awesome.
Believe it or not, a few were actually challenging to 1-2 man parties!

They are sidequests. They reveal a little more world lore, introduce you to new or seldom used areas, perhaps introduce you to NPCs you should be familiar with, etc.
Just like sidequests in any other game.

We screamed for sidequests, and even defined and compared them in MANY threads as the fun meaningless quests that XI offered us.

I suggest find some more, because there's more than 4 quests givers/quests. Guess what? The ones from this update won't be the only ones we ever get either.

Can't someone say something positive about this game already?
Targetting update is pure win, leve menus are much better, crafting menus are streamlined to a whole new level of convenience, and yes, some of the quests ARE fun.


Edited, Mar 4th 2011 4:12pm by Restyoneck



No one would be complaining about the nature of these quests if they were built in as a minor part of the game from the beginning. However, they now currently comprise roughly 50% of the game's content - which means half the game's content is made up of crappy fetch/kill quests. Unfortunately, the other half of the game's content is made up of crappy fetch/kill quests with a different name.

One day, apparently a long time from now, there will be lots of large quests and PvE content and these "side quests" will be filler that bring the towns to life a little bit. At that point in time they will be perfectly acceptable.

#154 Mar 04 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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In my mind there's a huge difference. This game won't get "re-reviewed" or get anyone's attention at all if it gradually gets better over the course of years.

In effect, SE is planning a mini version of what I posted above by utilizing the PS3 release as their "throwing open the doors" re-release so to speak. However, if they wait too long to do the PS3 launch, it will not have the intended effect. Of course it also will not have the intended effect without some special content. The PS3 release is, afterall, a re-release of FFXIV. It's not going to be accepted as a completely "new game" by the reviewers and casual gaming consumers.

Not to mention the current costs of maintaining the servers and keeping them going for us non paying "customers" could actually be constraining potential development funds. I would certainly stop playing for awhile if it meant the fixes and content could be delivered sooner.


Exactly. Additionally, they could take more time to design major changes more easily if they didn't have the pressure of making changes quickly with an existing playerbase scrutinizing their game.

It's the difference between watching a sh*tty lawn slowly grow into a beautiful garden and occasionally glancing at its progress, and not looking for a year, then when you see it from your window one day, you say, "Wow! Look at that garden! What a transformation!"

It's very basic marketing psychology, and the fact that they aren't making money from players anyway is all the more reason to stop running the game at a loss. If anything, they're running the risk of losing a lot of players when they do start charging a subscription fee, because they're so far behind right now that they'll probably never be able to catch up to player expectations. Existing players will be bored with content before they can add new content, and they'll never be able to ask for subscriptions.

Edit: The fact is, this game could be a good game to start playing in a couple of years at the pace they're going. But there's not going to be anything to get players to pick up this game en masse a couple years from now short of a radical transformation and unveil.

Edited, Mar 4th 2011 1:26pm by Kachi
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#155 Mar 04 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Actually, taking the servers down is probably the best thing they could do. Obviously their existing playerbase doesn't think so, but honestly, people who are still playing the game will probably pick it right back up if they shut down the servers and reopen them later. At the rate they're going, they're probably only going to lose players from their existing playerbase, and they have almost no chance of getting any kind of player influx from nonplayers at this point.


I guess this is a matter of opinion then. I can tell you that if they took down what I consider a functional, if lacking, game and made me wait two years to play it again, I would not come back. I would move on and find a new MMO or new hobby.

My point is that there's zero need to take the servers down to fix the game. The only purpose taking the servers down would serve would be to try to make people forget about the extremely bad launch, ie, a PR move. That may have worked in November 2010, but it's too late now. SE has invested in a new producer and they've already started fixing the live game. They've infinitely increased communication, and an official forum will be here in less than a week. Taking the servers down would send a very bad message. Among all these little accomplishments it could only be interpreted as the project getting the axe.
#156 Mar 04 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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The problem with the quests is what they 'represent'. Five full months go by for a game that's been criticized for its lack of content and what we get looks to be about 20 one time guildleves. If this was the best they could do, they are very bad at their jobs. If this is due to time crunches, they are very bad at prioritizing what they should be working on. I remember at release some of the people defending the game were saying that they all felt stuff would be better for the march PS3 release, that there was a bunch of stuff being polished that would be here by then, and this patch pretty much told us that isn't true. I'm not going to bite their heads off for putting in a bunch of bare bones quickie quests, but I'm upset that this was the best they could do.
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#157 Mar 04 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem with just shutting down at this point is that they'd pretty much have to proceed directly to FFXV and forget about the 14th installment altogether. They're commited at this point.
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#158 Mar 04 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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You do realize if they shutdown the server the likely hood is they won't come back up. That's it, game over.

If you don't like the game in it's current then stop playing, go do something else for a few months until SE sends you an email saying the game is ready.

Pretend that the game never launch and this is just the world's longest open beta that you paid to get in. The game is going to be relaunched with the PS3 version of the game and yes, the PS3 does have to be re-reviewed by major gaming sites.

Case in point:
FFXI PC (Oct 28, 2003): http://pc.ign.com/objects/017/017388.html
FFXI PS2 (March 23, 2004): http://ps2.ign.com/objects/014/014009.html
FFXI 360 (April 18, 2006): http://xbox360.ign.com/objects/748/748456.html
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#159 Mar 04 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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dyvidd wrote:
The game is going to be relaunched with the PS3 version of the game and yes, the PS3 does have to be re-reviewed by major gaming sites.



Yes, and if the first words out of S-E's collective mouths is to once again beg websites to not review their launched game for a couple months ( like they did with the PC version ), it's going to be a major red flag to everyone involved. So they better be ready for day one reviews on "launch day".

Edited, Mar 4th 2011 5:32pm by Zorvan
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#160 Mar 04 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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So, let's see. Next major update would beee the Battle System!

Quick! Let us all tell SE exactly what we want so when they DO redo it WE CAN ***** ABOUT THAT, TOO! [excitement]

Give the dog a bone already. We dicussed, they listened, they acted, and we received. Would we rather have nothing from the dev team? No update letters, no interviews, no communication at all?

We told SE we wanted to hear from them, so we received Producer Letters. Now people want to complain about the many changes not coming fast enough. But hey, atleast we know what's changing.

They are trying, that should be enough to count. I know I wouldn't want their stress levels. Eat, sleep, and **** FFXIV is their life right about now. They are giving up so much right now to give to us. Remember Family > Games and they are truely the ones missing out.

It's been roughly 2 months since new team. I think some of us need a REboot and a REbuild as Yoshi has said.

Yes, we all bought the game and spent 60 or so bucks. But that was 6 months ago, get over it.
It wasn't your life savings.

Changes are coming, so let's support and not destroy a workable game.
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#161 Mar 04 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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SplatterPattern wrote:
Remember Family > Games and they are truely the ones missing out.


Sorry, your comparison is flawed. Yes, to the players family > games, but for Yoshi this is work, not a game. And unless he plans for his family to starve, work > family right now.
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#162SplatterPattern, Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 5:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hm. Yes, I bet he's LOVING his job right about now. :)
#163 Mar 04 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Having now completed almost every sidequest, I can say with confidence that they are exactly as I imagined.

They're mediocre-at-best.. Both quality & quantity fall short to me.. It's downright embarassing that they couldn't even figure a number other than 8 to use on these kill-fetch quests. Really, how hard is it to swap a 10 or a 5 in there? Once again they don't even try to not appear lazy.
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#164AtryxEtair, Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 5:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I didn't say "shut your mouth/mouths". Neither did I say do it for me. Try reading my post before quoting it please.
#165 Mar 04 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Zorvan wrote:
So they better be ready for day one reviews on "launch day".


Couldn't agree more. I think they are well aware of this.

On topic: Having these new Quests unlock as you progress is surely just a bit more fun then running around at Rank 50 completing them all in one day.
#166 Mar 04 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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AtryxEtair wrote:


I didn't say "shut your mouth/mouths". Try reading my post before quoting it please.


AtryxEtair wrote:
My main point: Shut your angry and pretentious mouths until your paying a sub.


Wanna try that again?
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#167 Mar 04 2011 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Actually, taking the servers down is probably the best thing they could do...


I guess this is a matter of opinion then. I can tell you that if they took down what I consider a functional, if lacking, game and made me wait two years to play it again, I would not come back. I would move on and find a new MMO or new hobby.


It's a searing indictment of the game that this suggestion is even being debated, and would've been unfathomable in early Sep. 2010. I'm very pleased with my choice to uninstall until PS3 release; the game was in critical condition and over the past half-year they've only been able to implement a market bazaar search function, eliminate menu redundancies and some lag, a couple NM leves, and ****** leves or "side-quests" that offer no sp or decent items. I'm still in awe of the fact that I'm talking about a Final Fantasy game developed by Square Enix.

I'm very mildly sympathetic to the notion that small, incremental changes are the way to go, but this game is in critical condition, and without a server population call function, the most dedicated and devoted players have no way of knowing the current server populations.
#168AtryxEtair, Posted: Mar 04 2011 at 6:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thank you for saving me time and proving my point for me. I openly welcome criticism and constructive discussions. To my knowledge, my original statement is obviously targeting flamers.
#170 Mar 04 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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AkumaOokami wrote:

There are storyline quests, as well as individual guild quests, NM hunting, leves, and now sidequests. There's a considerable amount of this "Content" you speak of. All of these encompass fetch/kill/farm/find.

What do YOU want to see that's not on the list? End game content? The game just released... Get off your high horse of entitlement.


This is just dumb. SE admits the game sucks *** and isn't even charging a sub fee. Why are you bashing somebody because they're admitting what SE itself readily admits?


Edited, Mar 4th 2011 8:19pm by HardHotThrobbingAetherite
#171 Mar 04 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog made a thread that suggests new quests are unlocked as you progress, he mentions this happening during leve-reset. Perhaps all the uproar about the quests not being 'enough' are irrelevant as you may get options to do more difficult quests as you go along. Perhaps we should save our anger for a few days and see how this unfolds.
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#172 Mar 04 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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olaurelindorenan wrote:
DoctorMog made a thread that suggests new quests are unlocked as you progress, he mentions this happening during leve-reset. Perhaps all the uproar about the quests not being 'enough' are irrelevant as you may get options to do more difficult quests as you go along. Perhaps we should save our anger for a few days and see how this unfolds.



Now now, you know patience and rational thought isn't allowed in this neck of the woods.
#173 Mar 04 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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I guess this is a matter of opinion then. I can tell you that if they took down what I consider a functional, if lacking, game and made me wait two years to play it again, I would not come back. I would move on and find a new MMO or new hobby.


You're honestly telling me that you're playing the game as is for now, but that if they took it down and did a lot of work on it, you wouldn't give it another shot when they rerelease it? It's not like it will even be the least bit dated at that point. I find that hard to believe, but even if that's true for you, I highly doubt it is for most.

Especially, consider this:

Quote:
Having these new Quests unlock as you progress is surely just a bit more fun then running around at Rank 50 completing them all in one day.


And that's going to be the problem if they keep the game live. Everything is going to be old the week after it hits. You HAVE to launch a game with a content surplus, and FFXIV launched with a deficit. This is going to cost them their existing playerbase over time. The only way to correct this problem for existing players is to pull the game (or at least don't introduce changes as they're added at all). Meanwhile, non-players aren't going to be attracted to a game that has been running for years where they'll likely be a noob among vets.

Fact is, players are already moving on, and the tiny percentage of players who really wouldn't give this game a second chance is vastly outnumbered by the number of players who would happily see them pull the game and try again.

Quote:
There are storyline quests that require a lot of grinding to access, as well as individual guild quests that have the same problem, NM hunting (3 of them), a bunch of lame leves, and now about a dozen crappy sidequests. There's a considerable amount of this ************ Content" you speak of. All of these encompass fetch/kill/farm/find.

What do YOU want to see that's not on the list? End game content? The game just released 6 months ago... Get off your high horse of entitlement and get on the nearest horse that can take you away from this mess of a game.


That's more like it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#174 Mar 05 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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Your definition of "considerable" differs from mine, Akuma. From your signature, I see that you've done the rank 20 Lancer quest. Why don't you tell us how "considerable" that quest was? It consisted of two cutscenes (which are great...I imagine that very few players are complaining about the quality of the cutscenes in the game), running for five minutes into the woods, and killing three mobs. I two-shotted them (I know, how un-l33t of me not to do it in one shot!). That was it. That's the ONLY thing I'm going to get to do for LNC guild until level 30.

The much-vaunted class rank 20 quest where you choose a companion? Run to Ul'dah, watch cutscenes, then select a companion. _Not bad in and of itself,_ but I won't even have a chance to summon the companion until rank 26, so how much content is that really?

Face it- the content in this game would fit in ANY other MMOs' thimble. Even excellent content (and I wouldn't go so far as to call this game's content "excellent") falls down when it's spread too thin.

As far as "entitlement," SE (in fact, any company) exists because of one factor only- the customer. Customers are _absolutely_ entitled to get their money's worth from any product. And they are further entitled to complain if they think they've been given the shaft.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 3:14pm by Prandiol
#175 Mar 05 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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I think the lack of cutscenes is the only real deal-breaker for me in these quests. Also I don't understand why killing quest mobs suddenly doesn't give ANY sp even though they're just like normal mobs. XI has tons of cutscenes in quests how can they think we'd be satisfied with this approach?
#176 Mar 05 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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seiferdincht wrote:
I think the lack of cutscenes is the only real deal-breaker for me in these quests. Also I don't understand why killing quest mobs suddenly doesn't give ANY sp even though they're just like normal mobs. XI has tons of cutscenes in quests how can they think we'd be satisfied with this approach?


Do you remember the quests first released with FFXI? They were pretty much like these...very basic. People like to bring up WoTG quests without realizing that those quests were the storyline of the respective nations. FFXI Vanilla > Zilart > CoP > ToAU shown an obvious improvement over the quest quality as well as design and the engine for XIV doesn't lack the capability to offer such quests but it's clear this was just an introduction to the system itself, it'll no doubt evolve as patches continue to roll out like it did with FFXI. This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.

They're way too swamped with fixing the game to really focus on content quality, so who knows what the system will be like when they finish fixing the game and can focus on other things.
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#177 Mar 05 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
I think the lack of cutscenes is the only real deal-breaker for me in these quests. Also I don't understand why killing quest mobs suddenly doesn't give ANY sp even though they're just like normal mobs. XI has tons of cutscenes in quests how can they think we'd be satisfied with this approach?


Do you remember the quests first released with FFXI? They were pretty much like these...very basic. People like to bring up WoTG quests without realizing that those quests were the storyline of the respective nations. FFXI Vanilla > Zilart > CoP > ToAU shown an obvious improvement over the quest quality as well as design and the engine for XIV doesn't lack the capability to offer such quests but it's clear this was just an introduction to the system itself, it'll no doubt evolve as patches continue to roll out like it did with FFXI. This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.

They're way too swamped with fixing the game to really focus on content quality, so who knows what the system will be like when they finish fixing the game and can focus on other things.


If WoTG quests were so good in 2007, I suppose the question should be "Why aren't we using THOSE types of quests as a starting point in 2011?"
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#178 Mar 05 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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hexaemeron wrote:
Mistress Theonehio wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
I think the lack of cutscenes is the only real deal-breaker for me in these quests. Also I don't understand why killing quest mobs suddenly doesn't give ANY sp even though they're just like normal mobs. XI has tons of cutscenes in quests how can they think we'd be satisfied with this approach?


Do you remember the quests first released with FFXI? They were pretty much like these...very basic. People like to bring up WoTG quests without realizing that those quests were the storyline of the respective nations. FFXI Vanilla > Zilart > CoP > ToAU shown an obvious improvement over the quest quality as well as design and the engine for XIV doesn't lack the capability to offer such quests but it's clear this was just an introduction to the system itself, it'll no doubt evolve as patches continue to roll out like it did with FFXI. This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.

They're way too swamped with fixing the game to really focus on content quality, so who knows what the system will be like when they finish fixing the game and can focus on other things.


If WoTG quests were so good in 2007, I suppose the question should be "Why aren't we using THOSE types of quests as a starting point in 2011?"


As I wrote:
This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.


When you willingly sidestep from a great base and end up having your game rushed out that's what happens when you scramble to have to fix the foundation instead of focusing on content and improving it's quality overtime.

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#179 Mar 05 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
Mistress Theonehio wrote:
seiferdincht wrote:
I think the lack of cutscenes is the only real deal-breaker for me in these quests. Also I don't understand why killing quest mobs suddenly doesn't give ANY sp even though they're just like normal mobs. XI has tons of cutscenes in quests how can they think we'd be satisfied with this approach?


Do you remember the quests first released with FFXI? They were pretty much like these...very basic. People like to bring up WoTG quests without realizing that those quests were the storyline of the respective nations. FFXI Vanilla > Zilart > CoP > ToAU shown an obvious improvement over the quest quality as well as design and the engine for XIV doesn't lack the capability to offer such quests but it's clear this was just an introduction to the system itself, it'll no doubt evolve as patches continue to roll out like it did with FFXI. This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.

They're way too swamped with fixing the game to really focus on content quality, so who knows what the system will be like when they finish fixing the game and can focus on other things.


If WoTG quests were so good in 2007, I suppose the question should be "Why aren't we using THOSE types of quests as a starting point in 2011?"


As I wrote:
This is the whole trouble with them previously wanting to get away from FFXI instead of building on it.


When you willingly sidestep from a great base and end up having your game rushed out that's what happens when you scramble to have to fix the foundation instead of focusing on content and improving it's quality overtime.



I understand your assertion, but I wouldn't say engaging and involving quests chains are exclusively the purview of WoTG or FFXI. About the rush, well, it's the inconvenient truth that will never go away.
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#180 Mar 05 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly story content is the biggest selling point of FFXI and ANY FF so what were they thinking?! Having no cutscenes is not unique or refreshingly different from XI it's just lazy quest design. The reason every other MMO does it doesn't cut it because they've demonstrated in hundreds of XI quests with interesting stories that they can do better than any other MMO.
#181 Mar 05 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
They're way too swamped with fixing the game to really focus on content quality, so who knows what the system will be like when they finish fixing the game and can focus on other things.

Even if this is the case, what's your point exactly? That we should all give them a pass and wait another 6 months?

I'm not seeing people's optimism about "this system" of sidequests. It's fluff.. And if anything significant or of higher quality comes, who will care about the sidequests we just got? Lackluster content is not a prerequisite for solid content.
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#182 Mar 05 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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AtryxEtair wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
AtryxEtair wrote:


I didn't say "shut your mouth/mouths". Try reading my post before quoting it please.


AtryxEtair wrote:
My main point: Shut your angry and pretentious mouths until your paying a sub.


Wanna try that again?


Thank you for saving me time and proving my point for me. I openly welcome criticism and constructive discussions. To my knowledge, my original statement is obviously targeting flamers.

Thank you for your constructive input however.


It wasn't your point that was proved, it was Zorvan's. I'd give you points for being gracious in defeat, but it's a wash because if you were angry and pretentious about it, you'd presumably have to stop typing to follow your own advice. At least until your subscription started. But by then it would be too late to do anything about it, wouldn't it?

Oh, am I making a point right there? Be sure to thank yourself for that one too.
#183 Mar 05 2011 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I had a thought pop into my head today. Why should they give us the big super awesome quests now, when no one is paying? Maybe they want to hold all the cool new awesome super stuff til pay days.

Don't agree with the idea, but just a thought.
#184 Mar 05 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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dusktwilight wrote:
I had a thought pop into my head today. Why should they give us the big super awesome quests now, when no one is paying? Maybe they want to hold all the cool new awesome super stuff til pay days.

Don't agree with the idea, but just a thought.


If they don't give anything good, who will be left to pay?
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#185 Mar 05 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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dusktwilight wrote:
I had a thought pop into my head today. Why should they give us the big super awesome quests now, when no one is paying? Maybe they want to hold all the cool new awesome super stuff til pay days.

Don't agree with the idea, but just a thought.


If they gave us super awesome quests now, we'd be telling all our friends, "Hey, these quests are super awesome, come check it out!" People would come back to the game, get hooked on the super awesome quests and when they introduced subscriptions, they wouldn't leave because they couldn't bear to be without their super awesome quests.

Giving us crappy quests now just makes people feel like an already crappy game got even crappier. Like as not, people will resign in hopelessness, not sign people up to dwell in the expanding quagmire, and that's even before you start charging people for it.
#186 Mar 05 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I had a thought pop into my head today. Why should they give us the big super awesome quests now, when no one is paying? Maybe they want to hold all the cool new awesome super stuff til pay days.


It's a nice thought, but I really doubt they're holding out on us. This is still SE, afterall. They never surprise us by going above and beyond our expectations. At this point, they smoke'em if they got'em.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#187 Mar 05 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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Like I said, don't agree with the idea. Not even saying that it is even the case. Just a scenario I could see playing out.
#188 Mar 05 2011 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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That's the thing. I actually think it would be a good thing for the game in the long run. I just don't see any chance that that's their plan.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#189 Mar 05 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
I know it's been said, but the single biggest problem is that they had a 8 year running game to draw experience from and learned absolutely NOTHING. I mean, yeah, you can say "but they were trying to be different" that doesn't account for the fact the game still doesn't even have a decent party seek function, or that the 3 starter city mission branches up through only chapter 3 are FAR, FAR superior to these bullsh*t storyline missions in 14. Those at least were challenging at the time, Dragon/Ahriman fight was epic as sh*t when we were newbs. I mean why even bother putting mobs in a quest if they can be 1-shotted by a rank <5.....

I would much rather do the vanilla Bastok, Sandy, Windy quests and missions than anything in 14. In the words of my parents "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed". They recycled the races, of course, and almost what 50% of the mobs? I mean, they took FOV's idea for solo leveling and kind of turned those into Leves. Why ignore everything else good...

Edited, Mar 6th 2011 12:43am by StuntmanMike0351
#190 Mar 06 2011 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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Well four months or whatever is long enough for me to make a decision, along with this latest patch implementation showing us exactly what quests are to SE.

This game should've stayed in development a LOT longer and I mean years longer, it isn't really an MMO its more of a sandbox world which is fun for some people, but not me.

Not looking back and not really happy it has worked out this way.

Adios FFXIV, it really is going to take a miracle for this game to be anything near enjoyable comparative to what is out on the market right now

Edited, Mar 6th 2011 1:14am by tylerbee
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#191 Mar 06 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Decent
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If this thread proves something, is how far will fanboy's go to make excuses for SE and their less than mediocre patches :)

Really they only added some 20 something wow quest's because they "Needed" to implement some side quest system ? really ? what was wrong with their current system for quest's? how about the fact that they only added so very few quest's? Oh that's right we should have not expected them to add anything of relevance i mean, is not like one of the biggest complaints for the game is the lack of content & lack of engaging content ?

Seriously some of you talk, like SE is some indie company making their first venture into the MMO market, this is a MULTIMILLION VENTURE! This is not 3 15yrs old kids making a game on some byond engine in their basement, the usual "They are fixing the foundation First!" Excuse is getting old, i mean really ? they have had nobody working on content pre-release ? after release or for the past few months ? are you telling me a company like SE does not has a dedicated team for creating content ? REALLY ? Square The F*ck Enix! Does not has a dedicated content team ?

Ah! Never mind i forgot you people think is just Yoshi-P coding everything all by his lonesome, i mean is not like half or more of the good updates where under the old dev team right ? Nah! It was all great Yoshi-P and his baby steps way's.
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#192 Mar 06 2011 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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If they can't make proper quests then I honestly think they should have focused one getting only few instead of a dozen. At this point they have to know that whatever they add is a sign of direction in which the quests are going.
I'd rather have only one proper quest with thought out dialogue and cutscenes than a bunch of filler crap.

What they have given as pales in comparison to XI quests. (same applies to main storyline missions)
#193 Mar 06 2011 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
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I just wanted to point something out to the people that are comparing FFXI vanilla quests to FFXIV's "sidequests"... stating that the quests in vanilla FFXI (pre-RotZ) were the same as FFXIV's "sidequests".

Sorry to burst bubbles... but this is absolutely wrong. The quests in vanilla FFXI were quick, painless, and rewarded you for completing them with fame and gil. You also got xp for killing the mobs that dropped whatever item the quest you were doing called for.

Case in point: Fear of the Dark

This repeatable quest calls for the player to trade 2 bat wings to Secodiand. Bat wings drop from the Ding Bats that are right outside San d'Oria (among other places) and you get xp for killing them in addition to the drop (which, while not a guaranteed drop, was still pretty easy to get, especially if you were killing them while grinding). When you trade the two bat wings to Secodiand, you get 200 gil as your reward and San d'Oria Nation fame.

This is a quest that has been in FFXI since it launched. It's not something that was added in when RoZ, CoP, ToAU, or WotG was released. It's been around since May 2002 when the game launched in Japan. Now admittedly, this quest is very basic and simple. It's a kill quest, only it's not presented as such. It's very basic and simple just like the sidequests in FFXIV. However, the difference between the two games is FFXI rewards you for completing the quest and for killing the mobs to get the item drops. If this quest were present in FFXIV, you would get the quest from the same NPC, and you would kill the same Ding Bats in order to get the same bat wings. However, you wouldn't get xp for killing the Ding Bats and you would only get the 200 gil reward and nation fame for turning in the bat wings.

The only similarity between vanilla FFXI's sidequests and FFXIV's sidequests is they both reward you for completing the quest. However, the sidequests in vanilla FFXI were a lot more productive because you were rewarded for doing the quest as well as completing the quest. Quests that just reward you for completing them need to have lucrative rewards in order to give players an incentive for doing said quests, as that is what the players are going to remember about the quests when they are done questing. If a player completes 5 quests and doesn't get any xp along the way and only gets a cotton coif, a square of cotton cloth, 3 grass thread, a bottle of distilled water, and a pot of honey as the reward, said player is going to feel pretty bad about having invested the time to complete the quests and only got vendor trash for his/her time. Time, I might add, which might have been better spent grinding regular mobs or doing a Behest.

At least with the Fear of the Dark quest I just used as an example, you could be out in East Ronfoere killing the bats on a low-level job for the xp and turn in the bat wings to get some gil and nation fame. The quests in FFXI all the way back to vanilla follow this basic logic. The sidequests in FFXIV, however, expect you to spend your time not getting xp/sp so you can get vendor trash as a reward. The levequests give you xp/sp AND items (sometimes vendor trash... sometimes not) in exchange for your time. Why spend time doing sidequests when you can just do your daily levequests?

Edited, Mar 6th 2011 2:27am by oberonqa
#194 Mar 06 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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FFXI - Truth, Justice, and the Onion Way

A series of side quests made in FFXI, these are simple side quests this being the final one in a string. They even made special music just for these quest cut-scenes, notice how much effort the take in telling a cute little story to add to the world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ys482bRyZY

If you wanna see how good they were at making eqpic proper mission quests (not a side quest but it beats the pants off anything in 14)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iRdRICzd_A&feature=related

These aren't CGI either, they are made using the actual models ingame in real time.


Edited, Mar 6th 2011 7:31am by preludes
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#195 Mar 06 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:

Here's a shot from the first I did - I'm really not liking all the red markers at all, for all the exclamation point talk, I have more of a problem with this... http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/SnoopySS22/aggressive.jpg


Well they didn't even TELL us they were going to do that, did they? I wish they at least gave us a toggle. It looks terrible, and anyone who played for more than two weeks had a pretty darn good idea what aggroed anyway. Not to mention that there isn't even a death penalty. Does the modern gamer really need their hand held so much? If so, that's sad.

Oh and speaking of casual, I have two jobs higher than my highest level FFXIV (after six months) in two weeks in XI, so for people who respond about how these sorts of hideous things are needed for "casuals" then they better get fixing the rest of the game.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#196 Mar 06 2011 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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AkumaOokami wrote:
Dlaqev wrote:
Why are people acting like this game is some kind of massive commitment? You're not even paying a subscription fee right now. Go get your fix from Rift or something, then come back when it's more to your liking.

It really is just that simple.


I think people are hurt by the expectations they held S-E to, and rightfully so.
But yes, you're right, there is always an option to put down the game and go play something else instead of nit-picking about every tiny little thing.

Patience is a virtue, it just looks like you'll need it ten fold for XIV, which I'm willing to wait for, because I too have high expectations.


Yeah, I am enjoying my game time a lot more now that I took a break. I'm still hoping XIV shapes up, and I still feel dissapointed by crummy changes (for example giant, hideous red "aggro" markers with no toggle")... and curious about better chsnges (continue button on local synths, local synths organized, possibility of more marks after six months and a lot of crafting and only enough marks to buy 1 book).
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#197 Mar 06 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Coyohma wrote:

Here's a shot from the first I did - I'm really not liking all the red markers at all, for all the exclamation point talk, I have more of a problem with this... http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/SnoopySS22/aggressive.jpg


Well they didn't even TELL us they were going to do that, did they? I wish they at least gave us a toggle. It looks terrible, and anyone who played for more than two weeks had a pretty darn good idea what aggroed anyway. Not to mention that there isn't even a death penalty. Does the modern gamer really need their hand held so much? If so, that's sad.

Oh and speaking of casual, I have two jobs higher than my highest level FFXIV (after six months) in two weeks in XI, so for people who respond about how these sorts of hideous things are needed for "casuals" then they better get fixing the rest of the game.



I agree 100% If you enjoy the fact that pretty much all the choices and challenges are taken away from you in transition from XI to XIV why the **** are these people even wanting to play a videogame? A videogame is supposed to be interactive entertainment.

I really dislike the way quest maps show exactly where the mobs you need to kill are. In XI you usually had a dozens of places or ways to complete the quest and you had to plan to use your current assets to reach that goal.

In XIV every quest has to be completed the exact same way by following the marker to the place you need to be.

Even if your quest is to kill marmots, marmots are everywhere yet you can complete the quest by killing only marmots in the pre-defined spot like a drooling idiot.
#198 Mar 06 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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yeah yeah yeah. Because no other recent mmorpg show you the place where complete a quest.

Seriusly, every complain i hear feel more like old FFXI players were too good accustomed to it. I'm an old player too, but we can't really expect the same ******* mechanism of almost 10 years ago, a lot of time and games are passed since there, you can't expect to be competive like that
For the no-cutscene meme, remember these are SIDEquests, not class or storyline quests, meaning they are not directly related to the current storyline but just general lore and curiosities. I don't really feel the urge of a breath-taking cutscene just for general riff-raff story, for now it's ok. In the future they can always put more in-depth quests, and then some cinematic.
Remember, in FFXI very few sidequest had cutscene. Black belt quest don't have any, and that reward a huge item no ? ****** don't have any. Bridget fascion quest ? Any scene, and almost everyone done it. Actually the only SIDEquest with cinematics i recall is the serpent generals quests. But still, very few quests not related to missions,ranks or jobs have something like that.

Aside this, i would have sp/exp rewards from quests too, and after official forums i'll do a post for that. I encourage you to do the same. since we're getting a more direct tool for our suggestions/complains, better use it :P
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#199 Mar 06 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Minamimoto wrote:
yeah yeah yeah. Because no other recent mmorpg show you the place where complete a quest.

Seriusly, every complain i hear feel more like old FFXI players were too good accustomed to it. I'm an old player too, but we can't really expect the same @#%^ing mechanism of almost 10 years ago, a lot of time and games are passed since there, you can't expect to be competive like that
For the no-cutscene meme, remember these are SIDEquests, not class or storyline quests, meaning they are not directly related to the current storyline but just general lore and curiosities. I don't really feel the urge of a breath-taking cutscene just for general riff-raff story, for now it's ok. In the future they can always put more in-depth quests, and then some cinematic.
Remember, in FFXI very few sidequest had cutscene. Black belt quest don't have any, and that reward a huge item no ? ****** don't have any. Bridget fascion quest ? Any scene, and almost everyone done it. Actually the only SIDEquest with cinematics i recall is the serpent generals quests. But still, very few quests not related to missions,ranks or jobs have something like that.

Aside this, i would have sp/exp rewards from quests too, and after official forums i'll do a post for that. I encourage you to do the same. since we're getting a more direct tool for our suggestions/complains, better use it :P


Lol and the reason we're playing FF XIV is?

You see it doesn't matter how other games ruin the interactive elements. We're playing this game where according to the recent poll a major part of the playerbase has gotten used to XI's level of quality and cutscenes even in many of the smallest quests.

No matter how big you write the word SIDE or MINI that's not making them better than the presentation of XI quests.

Personally I wouldn't waste my time with an MMO if majority of the quests were of this current standard. If majority of the MMO's use the same system that still doesn't make it any more compelling. Bad game design is bad game design in any package it's wrapped into.
#200 Mar 06 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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seiferdincht wrote:

Lol and the reason we're playing FF XIV is?

You see it doesn't matter how other games ruin the interactive elements. We're playing this game where according to the recent poll a major part of the playerbase has gotten used to XI's level of quality and cutscenes even in many of the smallest quests.

No matter how big you write the word SIDE or MINI that's not making them better than the presentation of XI quests.

Personally I wouldn't waste my time with an MMO if majority of the quests were of this current standard. If majority of the MMO's use the same system that still doesn't make it any more compelling. Bad game design is bad game design in any package it's wrapped into.


Most of the smaller quests in FFXI didn't have cutscenes, crappy to no rewards, so you FFXI whiners got what you wanted.

IF this MMO isn't up to your standards, why even play it? Go play FFXI, Rift, WoW, some other MMO until they finally decide to charge for FFXIV or stick with those other games.
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#201 Mar 06 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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Note: It's not very easy to make cutscenes in FFXIV. Especially with the new motion capture technology they're using. To expect them to do all of that in the 3-7 weeks they had to make these quests is a little unreasonable, in my opinion.
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