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Can we just be thankful quests and leveling aren't mixed?!Follow

#1 Mar 04 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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They feel A LOT like FFXI's quests. Pointless and not really all that important.
I'm sure they intend to use this system to grant players unique quest exclusive rewards in the future, Maybe implement a fame system. Or quest series.

In the dish that is MMO's I agree that quests should be the garnish and not an integral part of the meal.

I really appreciate yoshi's hard work and foresight to expand the game both vertically and horizontally. He also didn't try to sell us quests as though its the soul reason to come back. I'm pretty sure he laid them as groundwork and didn't expect anyone to flip they're lid over them.



Also can we talk about how genius it was to increase monster sizes?!
#2 Mar 04 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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KenJammin wrote:
They feel A LOT like FFXI's quests. Pointless and not really all that important.
I'm sure they intend to use this system to grant players unique quest exclusive rewards in the future, Maybe implement a fame system. Or quest series.

In the dish that is MMO's I agree that quests should be the garnish and not an integral part of the meal.

I really appreciate yoshi's hard work and foresight to expand the game both vertically and horizontally. He also didn't try to sell us quests as though its the soul reason to come back. I'm pretty sure he laid them as groundwork and didn't expect anyone to flip they're lid over them.



Also can we talk about how genius it was to increase monster sizes?!



No, I don't think we can be thankful for that. Your opinion is wildly a minority view. I'm stoked you're happy though.
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#3 Mar 04 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really do like how huge Dreamtoad is now.
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#4 Mar 04 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In the dish that is MMO's I agree that quests should be the garnish and not an integral part of the meal.


For this line i would tell you something but i don't want to be mean ;)

No quests, and story = No game
#5 Mar 04 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Default
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I agree. If you want sp/exp handed to you for doing something other than sping/exping, then you are in the wrong place. I'm glad Yoshi-P isn't going to make this game easier than it already is.
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#6 Mar 04 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Any time my adventurer heroically kills an enemy in battle - SP and EXP should be earned, since skill and experience are improved.

Side quests should provide the regular amount of SP for killing the enemies just as if I had killed a wandering marmot.

The lack of SP/EXP earned actually encourages bad gameplay. If you take a lower ranked quest when you have a higher ranked character - the system encourages you to switch to your highest ranked class and one shot everyone in sight - and victory! The quest reward is yours, and it took less than 60 seconds.

If SP/EXP was earned, I would at least switch to a rank appropriate class so that I would earn SP/EXP as I went on the lower ranked quests.
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#7 Mar 04 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldnt mind leveling via quests, well i pretty much do I have only grinded on mobs 1 time since i came back to the game in early january. Grinding is not a viable means of leveling in 2011. Its part of the reason FFXIV has only been able to keep a small fraction of the people who bought the game.
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#8 Mar 04 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol how are quests and leveling NOT mixed? Have you ever heard of levequests? You know, the foundation of the progression system in this game... some people...
#9 Mar 04 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Can we just be thankful quests and leveling aren't mixed?!


NO!

*stubbornly sits and folds arms*

>:(
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#10 Mar 04 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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NayliaMR wrote:
Quote:
Any time my adventurer heroically kills an enemy in battle - SP and EXP should be earned, since skill and experience are improved.

Side quests should provide the regular amount of SP for killing the enemies just as if I had killed a wandering marmot.

The lack of SP/EXP earned actually encourages bad gameplay. If you take a lower ranked quest when you have a higher ranked character - the system encourages you to switch to your highest ranked class and one shot everyone in sight - and victory! The quest reward is yours, and it took less than 60 seconds.

If SP/EXP was earned, I would at least switch to a rank appropriate class so that I would earn SP/EXP as I went on the lower ranked quests.



Those would be called levequests . . . .


These are just SIDEquests . . . its something else to do aside from grinding leve's and sp and craft . . .
#11 Mar 04 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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So to progress through the game the main mechanism should be levequests or random grinding? Why do you believe you shouldn't be able to earn SKILL or EXPERIENCE through the things you do on a sidequest.

Also levequests are enhanced SP, I stated that SP should be gained per normal rules.

ANY battle, be it main quest, class quest, leve quest, side quest, doesn't matter quest should reward your character with skill and experience based on the difficulty of that battle for your character.

Why on earth would you put in a mechanic that encourages bad gameplay, when the class system in this games provides the flexibility to always make all gameplay a challenge. They should reward switching to an appropriate rank class and participating in the quest at that level, rather than reward (through time savings) switching to a higher rank class and one shotting everything. I'm not saying that the second alternative shouldn't be an option. But that both styles of gameplay should be an option. Currently the options are:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

So...how many people are swapping to a low rank class to make quests more real???

The setup should be:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

See how you get a trade off that enables alternative styles of play...nay even encourages alternative approaches and decision making about play style using a system already available in the game?
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#12 Mar 04 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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NayliaMR wrote:
So to progress through the game the main mechanism should be levequests or random grinding? Why do you believe you shouldn't be able to earn SKILL or EXPERIENCE through the things you do on a sidequest.

Also levequests are enhanced SP, I stated that SP should be gained per normal rules.

ANY battle, be it main quest, class quest, leve quest, side quest, doesn't matter quest should reward your character with skill and experience based on the difficulty of that battle for your character.

Why on earth would you put in a mechanic that encourages bad gameplay, when the class system in this games provides the flexibility to always make all gameplay a challenge. They should reward switching to an appropriate rank class and participating in the quest at that level, rather than reward (through time savings) switching to a higher rank class and one shotting everything. I'm not saying that the second alternative shouldn't be an option. But that both styles of gameplay should be an option. Currently the options are:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

So...how many people are swapping to a low rank class to make quests more real???

The setup should be:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

See how you get a trade off that enables alternative styles of play...nay even encourages alternative approaches and decision making about play style using a system already available in the game?


This is a good example to show why quests are just more pointless of a zerg we don't need atm. Least the other pointless zergs in the game give our character progression. I'd love to state how these quests give awesome lore and stuff and maybe even cutscenes that are epic...but they don't... :( ... Me and my completionist compulsive habits though made me do all the quests though I could find haha. Finished all 15 I could find in a few hours and lore didn't reveal anything interesting nor did I get any gear that was beneficial. Sad that 13 of my 15 were also based on killing exactly 8 mobs(magic number? o.O)
#13 Mar 04 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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MishaNevarian wrote:
NayliaMR wrote:
So to progress through the game the main mechanism should be levequests or random grinding? Why do you believe you shouldn't be able to earn SKILL or EXPERIENCE through the things you do on a sidequest.

Also levequests are enhanced SP, I stated that SP should be gained per normal rules.

ANY battle, be it main quest, class quest, leve quest, side quest, doesn't matter quest should reward your character with skill and experience based on the difficulty of that battle for your character.

Why on earth would you put in a mechanic that encourages bad gameplay, when the class system in this games provides the flexibility to always make all gameplay a challenge. They should reward switching to an appropriate rank class and participating in the quest at that level, rather than reward (through time savings) switching to a higher rank class and one shotting everything. I'm not saying that the second alternative shouldn't be an option. But that both styles of gameplay should be an option. Currently the options are:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

So...how many people are swapping to a low rank class to make quests more real???

The setup should be:

1) Switch to a low rank class -> spend 30 minutes fighting -> get SP/EXP - > get item reward
2) Switch to a high rank class -> spend 1 minute fighting -> get no SP/EXP - > get item reward

See how you get a trade off that enables alternative styles of play...nay even encourages alternative approaches and decision making about play style using a system already available in the game?


This is a good example to show why quests are just more pointless of a zerg we don't need atm. Least the other pointless zergs in the game give our character progression. I'd love to state how these quests give awesome lore and stuff and maybe even cutscenes that are epic...but they don't... :( ... Me and my completionist compulsive habits though made me do all the quests though I could find haha. Finished all 15 I could find in a few hours and lore didn't reveal anything interesting nor did I get any gear that was beneficial. Sad that 13 of my 15 were also based on killing exactly 8 mobs(magic number? o.O)


I'm not doing any of them until I see sp/exp added.
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#14 Mar 04 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Default
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Why add sp/xp to quests surely this would just allienate all to 50 player no longer getting either!!
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#15 Mar 04 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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I'm gonna agree with the naysayers and say that its odd they didn't include SP from quest mobs but I have a feeling this has more to do with the fact that they're changing the foundations of the battle system and how we get SP/XP in the future. I'm not a programmer, but If I'm to make an excuse for SE it would be this.
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#16 Mar 04 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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Embershayze wrote:
Why add sp/xp to quests surely this would just allienate all to 50 player no longer getting either!!


Yeah, you're right. In fact, every mmo should stop giving quest exp the minute someone reaches level cap, so they don't get butthurt. Imagine the beauty of EQ and WoW when, as soon as somebody got to level cap, the rest of the players could only get xp by grinding mobs and doing dailies ever 36 hours. Imagine the success those games would have had with that sort of system. Why, they'd be as successful as FFXIV is right now!

/sarcasm off

Please tell me you weren't serious.
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#17 Mar 04 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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I thought leveling through questing was boring and misdirected when it first emerged on the MMO scene, and I still stand by that assertion today. That reason alone is why my FFXIV subscription remains active (even though we're not paying) despite the cancellation of many others.

It's a lazy and ineffective way to tell a story, and it alienates a group-based experience prior to endgame, which should never, ever be where the game begins.

Edit: I should clarify I don't mean this as quests should offer no exp/sp incentive whatsoever, I'm only ranting against quest-based leveling as the primary method for reaching endgame.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 9:47am by Whales
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#18 Mar 04 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
I thought leveling through questing was boring and misdirected when it first emerged on the MMO scene, and I still stand by that assertion today. That reason alone is why my FFXIV subscription remains active (even though we're not paying) despite the cancellation of many others.

It's a lazy and ineffective way to tell a story, and it alienates a group-based experience prior to endgame, which should never, ever be where the game begins.

Edited, Mar 4th 2011 8:33pm by Whales


Then how are guildleves any different?

They are just daily quests with a different name, they don't even provide substantial lore/story, and SE has made it the focal point of leveling in this game. It is by no means revolutionary.
#19 Mar 04 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Zorvan wrote:
Embershayze wrote:
Why add sp/xp to quests surely this would just allienate all to 50 player no longer getting either!!


Yeah, you're right. In fact, every mmo should stop giving quest exp the minute someone reaches level cap, so they don't get butthurt. Imagine the beauty of EQ and WoW when, as soon as somebody got to level cap, the rest of the players could only get xp by grinding mobs and doing dailies ever 36 hours. Imagine the success those games would have had with that sort of system. Why, they'd be as successful as FFXIV is right now!

/sarcasm off

Please tell me you weren't serious.


Why would i post my opinion if i didnt think it?

For me quests should be about learning about your enviroment,
as i said in another thread if you want sp obtained by completing a "quest" go do your leves!

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#20 Mar 04 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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mbub wrote:
Then how are guildleves any different?

They are just daily quests with a different name, they don't even provide substantial lore/story, and SE has made it the focal point of leveling in this game. It is by no means revolutionary.


Never said they were. In fact, I agree with you 100% and wish they'd get rid of leves in this game altogether, especially as the focal point of leveling.
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#21 Mar 04 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
mbub wrote:
Then how are guildleves any different?

They are just daily quests with a different name, they don't even provide substantial lore/story, and SE has made it the focal point of leveling in this game. It is by no means revolutionary.


Never said they were. In fact, I agree with you 100% and wish they'd get rid of leves in this game altogether, especially as the focal point of leveling.


So grinding to max level is your idea of what MMO leveling should be? 2003 called its looking for you.
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#22 Mar 04 2011 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Embershayze wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Embershayze wrote:
Why add sp/xp to quests surely this would just allienate all to 50 player no longer getting either!!


Yeah, you're right. In fact, every mmo should stop giving quest exp the minute someone reaches level cap, so they don't get butthurt. Imagine the beauty of EQ and WoW when, as soon as somebody got to level cap, the rest of the players could only get xp by grinding mobs and doing dailies ever 36 hours. Imagine the success those games would have had with that sort of system. Why, they'd be as successful as FFXIV is right now!

/sarcasm off

Please tell me you weren't serious.


Why would i post my opinion if i didnt think it?

For me quests should be about learning about your enviroment,
as i said in another thread if you want sp obtained by completing a "quest" go do your leves!



And I'll say it again: if I wanted to get nothing but story, I'd read a book or watch a movie.
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#23 Mar 04 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

So grinding to max level is your idea of what MMO leveling should be? 2003 called its looking for you.


Should be as the only means? No. Should be a viable option? Yes.

And I don't understand how it's wrong that I had more fun playing MMOs in 2003, as you put it, than I do now. Are we not entitled to our own opinions?

I'm of the opinion that quest-based leveling is boring and a negative to MMOs, you're of the opinion that in 2011 MMOs shouldn't have leveling via grinding. Neither one of us is more correct than the other, they're simply opinions and preferences.


Edited, Mar 5th 2011 12:24am by Whales
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#24 Mar 04 2011 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

So grinding to max level is your idea of what MMO leveling should be? 2003 called its looking for you.


Should be as the only means? No. Should be a viable option? Yes.

And I don't understand how it's wrong that I had more fun playing MMOs in 2003, as you put it, than I do now. Are we not entitled to our own opinions?

I'm of the opinion that quest-based leveling is boring and a negative to MMOs, you're of the opinion that in 2011 MMOs shouldn't have leveling via grinding. Neither one of us is more correct than the other, they're simply opinions and preferences.


I totally agree with you. I never liked MMOs that used solo based questing to level to cap, then party based end game events. So many times you'd have people at the level cap participate in raids/events and not have a clue how their class functions in a party setting. Leveling your class should teach you how it plays so you can function well in challenging end game content.

I don't really care if it's traditional grinding or party based quests. I just prefer to play in a party when I play an MMO. Soloing is for single player games.
#25 Mar 05 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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Whales wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:

So grinding to max level is your idea of what MMO leveling should be? 2003 called its looking for you.


Should be as the only means? No. Should be a viable option? Yes.

And I don't understand how it's wrong that I had more fun playing MMOs in 2003, as you put it, than I do now. Are we not entitled to our own opinions?

I'm of the opinion that quest-based leveling is boring and a negative to MMOs, you're of the opinion that in 2011 MMOs shouldn't have leveling via grinding. Neither one of us is more correct than the other, they're simply opinions and preferences.


Edited, Mar 5th 2011 12:24am by Whales


I am in agreement. It just so happen's that our opinion makes players more responsible in the community. Everyone cares about getting the highest rank and the best gear they can. But it doesn't matter if A.They don't know how to play, or B.The people they play with don't know how to play. All I hear is Pink Floyd - Another Brick in the Wall playing to all the people whining for exp/sp rewards in quests.


Edited, Mar 5th 2011 1:01am by AtryxEtair
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#26 Mar 05 2011 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
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NayliaMR wrote:
Quote:
Any time my adventurer heroically kills an enemy in battle - SP and EXP should be earned, since skill and experience are improved.

Side quests should provide the regular amount of SP for killing the enemies just as if I had killed a wandering marmot.

The lack of SP/EXP earned actually encourages bad gameplay. If you take a lower ranked quest when you have a higher ranked character - the system encourages you to switch to your highest ranked class and one shot everyone in sight - and victory! The quest reward is yours, and it took less than 60 seconds.

If SP/EXP was earned, I would at least switch to a rank appropriate class so that I would earn SP/EXP as I went on the lower ranked quests.

perfectly said, thank you.
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#27 Mar 05 2011 at 3:38 AM Rating: Default
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NayliaMR wrote:
Quote:
Any time my adventurer heroically kills an enemy in battle - SP and EXP should be earned, since skill and experience are improved.

Side quests should provide the regular amount of SP for killing the enemies just as if I had killed a wandering marmot.

The lack of SP/EXP earned actually encourages bad gameplay. If you take a lower ranked quest when you have a higher ranked character - the system encourages you to switch to your highest ranked class and one shot everyone in sight - and victory! The quest reward is yours, and it took less than 60 seconds.

If SP/EXP was earned, I would at least switch to a rank appropriate class so that I would earn SP/EXP as I went on the lower ranked quests.


I agree 100% I'm very glad that the quest itself doesn't reward sp though but if I'm killing a marmot I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why I shouldn't expect the same results as killing any other marmot in the game. It gives me this "you're doing a spoon-fed(which is what the quests now are) quest which isn't part of the realm"-feeling.
#28 Mar 05 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Embershayze wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
Embershayze wrote:
Why add sp/xp to quests surely this would just allienate all to 50 player no longer getting either!!


Yeah, you're right. In fact, every mmo should stop giving quest exp the minute someone reaches level cap, so they don't get butthurt. Imagine the beauty of EQ and WoW when, as soon as somebody got to level cap, the rest of the players could only get xp by grinding mobs and doing dailies ever 36 hours. Imagine the success those games would have had with that sort of system. Why, they'd be as successful as FFXIV is right now!

/sarcasm off

Please tell me you weren't serious.


Why would i post my opinion if i didnt think it?

For me quests should be about learning about your enviroment,


As true as this is for R P G's, MMORPG gamers feel quite differently, everything they do has to level their character.
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#29 Mar 05 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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In my mind, there is a more foundational issue. I think quests as the core could be executed well --- I also believe that you could set up a game to be so expansive that grinding (killing mobs for experience) could be a continual process of discovery that takes a long time to get old. The problem that I think a lot of people may be having is that neither has been accomplished. A relatively simple world has been created with very little in the way of immersion that makes me feel like I want to go out and discover while killing a bunch of cool stuff along the way.

I like to keep hoping that there is a ton of content right around the corner --- more of that Final Fantasy creativity that this entry in the franchise deserves (read: needs).
#30 Mar 05 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:


I don't really care if it's traditional grinding or party based quests. I just prefer to play in a party when I play an MMO. Soloing is for single player games.


Agreed.
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#31 Mar 05 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Can't the quests give a good item or gil as a reward? As it is all you get for completing a quest is a pat on the back and some used underwear or something. I feel like I'm completely wasting my time on the quests.

Also, I can't help but wonder how many hours per day the "grinding is the only way to level" crowd puts in versus the "there should be multiple ways to level" crowd. I don't get very long to play each day and don't have hours to dedicate to a party all the time. Once I burn my levequests that's it really. I can't progress my character until 3 days pass. Quests would be nice filler but right now they aren't worth my time. They're pretty much pointless to me.

I think there's a misconception that quests can't include group content. Anyone remember the Eco-warrior quests from FFXI? It can be done, we just haven't seen it yet. So the argument about how quests that give sp/exp without teaching the player party mechanics is moot and null. There can still be group content that isn't grinding the same mobs over and over for hours.
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#32 Mar 05 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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im sorry but these quests are a good start but no sp , no exp , no loot and the rewards are iffy at best . i cant even choose fro m2 to 3 things . why do i whant cloth stuff whn i ned leather or chain ? right now they seem more like a time killer then anythign else but liek i said the game needs them these are a good start just need major work. but they are on the right track .
#33 Mar 05 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Zorvan wrote:


Yeah, you're right. In fact, every mmo should stop giving quest exp the minute someone reaches level cap, so they don't get butthurt. Imagine the beauty of EQ and WoW when, as soon as somebody got to level cap, the rest of the players could only get xp by grinding mobs and doing dailies ever 36 hours. Imagine the success those games would have had with that sort of system. Why, they'd be as successful as FFXIV is right now!

/sarcasm off

Please tell me you weren't serious.


Like it not Zorvan has a point here. The writing is on the wall, so to speak. There are several MMOs out there that are more successful than FFXIV and they all give quest exp. It's my theory - and correct me if I'm wrong - but players typically like to be compensated for their time with some kind of character progression. It's just generally more fun that way. Not giving quest exp could be one of several gameplay elements that pushes FFXIV further into a niche of its own, which is bad because it's going to need a lot more popularity to survive when there are so many other MMOs to choose from that don't completely waste the player's time for nothing.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. FFXI players will be the death of FFXIV. The market has changed a lot since FFXI and if SE doesn't recognize this then they are doomed to fail.
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#34 Mar 05 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Being defaulted for having an opinion. I SO can't wait for official forums. :D
#35 Mar 05 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
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I was definitely hoping for bigger things with these sidequests, but I agree with the OP. I don't think these quests were meant for character progression in terms of leveling up. If you think about it, with the insane amounts of SP gained from leves and behest, people are doing a lot less exploring/traveling through the world. These sidequests are a cool way of getting people to do some traveling and understanding of Eorzea.

I think what we're getting with these small patches and additions are like puzzle pieces; some pieces just won't make sense to us until we get closer to the completed puzzle. The producer has a better idea on what the completed puzzle will look like so maybe we should just wait and see what he wants to make this game into. He's clearly listening to us, and most of the changes, I think, are pretty good so far. Again, some patches definitely don't make sense and seem "bad", but that doesn't mean they should be changed. Maybe they'll make more sense once the game is closer to completion, and they may become pieces so important that the game won't feel complete without them.

When I voted yes for having big changes to the rules of Eorzea, I prepared myself for the good and bad and strange changes that hopefully will eventually make a great game.



#36 Mar 05 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, when I play a character, I like to think that I should receive "advancement" from almost any action I take in the gameworld. I am playing a _game_, not punching a clock at my dayjob as a psychopathic adventurer. If I kill a foozle, yes, I've gained experience in that area, so I should get advancement.

It shouldn't matter, though, if I'm on a "quest" to kill the foozle or not. Why shouldn't I advance just because I've been tasked by an NPC with killing that foozle?

But by the same token, if I craft an item, I've gained experience (I know how to make stuff) and should receive advancement. Luckily, in this game I do get SP for that. However, if I run to a new zone, I've gained experience too (I know more about the world). I should receive advancement. Why don't I get any SP at all, either physical or class, for exploring?

Furthermore, if I were to complete a text-based quest, like reading what an NPC has to say, I'd have gained experience... I've learned more about the lore. I'm of the opinion I should receive advancement from that too! If that's too "radical," though, then combine that wall of text with a quest to kill ten foozles. Or make me walk to _that_ NPC and regurgitate what I've just been told, like taking a test. Did I actually _comprehend_ that wall of text? If I choose correctly, I receive advancement.

Instead, the _only_ way to advance in this game is to kill the same mobs thousands upon thousands of times. I can't imagine a world where that's (1) enjoyable for more than five minutes or (2) realistic. Certainly no "fantasy world" I dream about visiting has me get more powerful solely by wreaking havoc on creature. I'd go so far as to argue that grinding should _stop_ advancing a character. After you've killed your thousandth foozle, what experience did you really get from it? You surely didn't gain some extra insight into how to kill foozles, right? You didn't learn more about the lore of foozles. The foozles' blood is the same color for foozle #1000 as foozle #1.

So since _you_ get to continue advancing for being the biggest mass murderer of foozles since, well, since the previous player logged out, let me receive advancement for reading lore, exploring, and learning about the world.

Sorry this was so long-winded.
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