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#1 Mar 05 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Default
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---Removed at the request of the Officers of the new Ls to prevent further drama.---

Edited, Mar 6th 2011 11:56am by Hugus

Edited, Mar 6th 2011 12:40pm by Hugus
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#2 Mar 05 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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I'll confirm the above conversation. I'm away at my girlfriend's place for the weekend so I don't have time for an exhaustive counter-arguement to this - but the reason I left the shell was simple: I was disappointed that after all the work I have put into the shell, people thought I was cheating. Also, I'm fully aware that once people have formed an opinion like that, it's very hard to fix.

As I said, there's a lot more to it than the side Hug is putting across, but basically I didn't want to lead a shell where I felt every minute I was under some kind of inquisition, simply because I choose to spend nearly all my in-game time crafting because I dont enjoy the battle system as it is. I guess all I can hope for is for people to judge my actions for themselves and form their own opinion. But I guess I may be hoping for too much.

Can't say I didn't see something like this coming from Hug tbh, but all the same - thanks for dragging my name through the mud based on a vague experience and personal vendetta. Not interested in debating this any further.

- Eli

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 8:58am by TheEliBear
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#3 Mar 05 2011 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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So just to clarify, what was he doing?

Botting?
Exploiting(saw this mentioned but not saying what he did)?

Either way glad to see other shells cracking down on members doing unsavory things.

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 9:17am by Vedis

Edited, Mar 5th 2011 9:44am by Vedis
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#4 Mar 05 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't bring this up as any kind of personal vendetta but because of my view and approach to game is as it is I felt that after making my position clear when a simillar situation arose about The Desperado I would be "Two faced" if I didn't act the same way towards not just a LS member but a LS leader which by it's own position will influence the other LS members.

Regardless of whether Elinas was botting or not I personally feel that his views on the conversation posted above are enough for me not to be part of the same LS. If other LSs accept this kind of behaviour that is up to them!
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#5 Mar 05 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
I didn't bring this up as any kind of personal vendetta but because of my view and approach to game is as it is I felt that after making my position clear when a simillar situation arose about The Desperado I would be "Two faced" if I didn't act the same way towards not just a LS member but a LS leader which by it's own position will influence the other LS members.

Regardless of whether Elinas was botting or not I personally feel that his views on the conversation posted above are enough for me not to be part of the same LS. If other LSs accept this kind of behaviour that is up to them!


I totaly agree there

The LS leader has to be the prime example of acceptable behavior in a shell

I had this issue in wow, was in one of the biggest shells on the server I was on...and I was put into a position where they wanted us to abuse exploits in order to get ahead.
I of course passed...and the next day everyone involved got caught and banned.

Point is, people need to play legit, there is never an excuse for cheating of any kind. And there is no possible way to ever justify it for any reason whatsoever.
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#6 Mar 05 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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The above conversation has nothing to do with my opinions on exploits - it is my opinion on what SE are going to do about them in the short term; which I maintain is nothing. Nowhere have I condoned exploits, hacks, bots or any such. And also, nowhere has anyone said I use any form of exploit.

Hugs pointed out a few instances where I haven't replied to a tell when crafting - I don't see why this is a big deal, but I can see the stigma it creates in a community where everyone is paranoid about botting. I'm an auditor; I have days where I can work at home if I'm not working at a client site, but this means I still have some work to do. Crafting is the only thing I can do in the game while working like this - A few keys, and restart-repeat on audio cues. The text boxes are pretty small, so its hardly unlikely I miss a few tells when grinding in this way. I guess if you consider this some form of exploiting thats a different issue.

Glad to see you're taking a balanced view of this Thevedis; having been subjected some similar such crap yourself about stealing LS members stuff much earlier on, I hoped you might appreciate that ****-stirring like this post is not normally more that.

- Eli

And Hugus, don't you dare draw comparisons between me and that Desperado guy. Thats just too much. Leave slander like that to when you can post some actual facts.
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#7 Mar 05 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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TheEliBear wrote:
The above conversation has nothing to do with my opinions on exploits - it is my opinion on what SE are going to do about them in the short term; which I maintain is nothing. Nowhere have I condoned exploits, hacks, bots or any such. And also, nowhere has anyone said I use any form of exploit.


Quote:

[1]<Elinas Myndraeg> its ridculous to ban people because they didnt finish developing the game before releasing it [1]<Hugus Primvs> its in the ToU
[1]<Elinas Myndraeg> not me dude
[1]<Elinas Myndraeg> I dont care


TheEliBear wrote:

And Hugus, don't you dare draw comparisons between me and that Desperado guy. Thats just too much. Leave slander like that to when you can post some actual facts.


I haven't actually claimed that you were botting on this thread, what I said was...

Quote:

he denied that he had been botting and mentioned that he was disapointed that I had though that about him

Quote:

Regardless of whether he has been botting or not


... all I did was put foward what happened acording to the best of my recolection, not being able to provide any "proof" besides my testimony. Once again I reiterate that the reason why I posted this thread is in line with my approach to the game and the way that I, personally, feel it should be played.
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#8 Mar 05 2011 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello all.

As a former member of Vagrants Requiem, and a new member of Seraphim and Aes Sedai Tower, I would like to begin by saying that I think of both Elinas and Hugus as good friends of mine in FFXIV and have enjoyed playing with them on Besaid. I'm making this post from a semi-outside perspective of my own based purely on what I've read and heard regarding this situation.

First of all, Hugus, is this topic really necessary? It's one thing if you think that Elinas is botting, and even though you've brought up the fact that you think that he does, you insist that this topic is about Elinas' "condoning" of such exploits and third party programs.

Nowhere in the above conversation does Elinas say that he thinks it's alright or encourages people to abuse G10 fishing spots or third party programs. He only states that even if people were to abuse these things that he doesn't think it would be wise of SE to ban people based on it, regardless of what is stated in in ToU (or whatever it's called). He never, ever said that it's okay for people to take advantage of exploits because they won't get caught.

When Elinas said "i dont care", it doesn't at all sound to me like "I don't care about the ToU, cheat all you want", but rather "Regardless of what the ToU says, I don't think SE could go through with banning people when their ingame population is already so very low." Then again, that's just my spin on the conversation and may not be at all what Elinas meant but it is how I interpreted it.

So you say this topic is about making people aware, but it honestly does come across as you just trying to drag Elinas' name through the mud based off what seems like a pretty silly disagreement that got taken WAY out of hand. I'm not saying that's what the intent of this topic is, but that is what's happening and I think it needs to stop.

Elinas. I'm not going to pretend like I know everything about you because I don't. And I certainly don't follow you around ingame and aside from the couple of times that you have crafted items for me, I have never seen you craft. So could you bot? Yes, no, maybe? I certainly don't know, and I certainly hope not.

My beef with you is about your reaction to all of this. From what I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong), you had a little spat with Hugus and after he dropped his pearl, some other members voiced some rather negative opinions towards you as well. And what do you do? You break the entire shell, you bring down our entire site (with loads of useful info and links on it) and then shut down the vent server as well.

Like ...really? REALLY? I come home from work and find that I no longer have a LS with no reason as to why. What was all of this talk about when I joined saying that Vagrants Requiem was all about the community and having fun and taking it easy? There's a disagreement in the shell and you just suddenly decide you want to have nothing to do with these people rather than trying to talk it out? You just suddenly decide to break the shell that so many people joined thinking that they had found a nice, friendly refuge? Same goes for you, Hugus. Was dropping your pearl really necessary based off this argument?

Because of your reaction to all of this, not only does it indeed make you look suspicious and not caring in the face of your accusations, but it is the reason why this topic exists in the first place. It's the reason why I actually have to respond to this silly thing in order to speak to the both of you at the same time and tell you how stupid I think it is!

The two of you used to poke fun and have a good time not only ingame, but on the VR forums as well and this is what it has come to? Really?

To summarize this all:
Hugus and any other former VR members who may be reading this, I do not think that Elinas encourages exploits in FFXIV and I think the creation of this topic serves nothing more than to invite drama amongst us and bring down Elinas without justified reason. I will not pretend to know if Elinas bots or not, but he is innocent until proven guilty in my book.
And Elinas, your reaction to this situation was just as harsh as the accusations brought down upon you and I do not think that it shows good leadership qualities on your part, especially considering the mission statement of VR that we were supposed to follow.

Call me an optimist or a dreamer, but I'd like to see this topic brought down and I'd like to see the both of you talk this out without one of you dropping pearl or breaking the shell. This entire situation is silly.

That is all, and I look forward to playing with the both of you ingame. Take care.
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#9 Mar 06 2011 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I kind of agree with both sides here. I have my accounts of this whole situation, but is this really the right forum/way of handling it? I appreciate Hug's passion over the situation, and wrong is wrong...

I think Karma will sort this all out in time.

/Cheers, Rich

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#10 Mar 06 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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Ruzi is completely right <.<

I spent the better part of an hour explaining quite openly in linkshell chat what happened, and why I didn't want to be leader anymore. I'm not going to lie, at the time I was pretty PO'd - and I hope you can imagine my frustration at finding out people were "suspicious" of me (to use their words) but no one had the brass to even whisper this to me until Hugus dropped the pearl and it all blew up!

I tried not to break the pearl in a 'ragequit' style or anything; I offered it to any of the current leaders to take it up, but I quite truthfully (and stand by this) didn't want to continue on as leader due to the stigma created by Hugus's accustations (formalised or not). Y'know... exactly the same stigma this thread has created. Which is why I'm double PO'd about this thread, and have reacted the way I have.


Hugus, I'd like to consider you a friend; but you're a smart guy, and there's no way you did this without considering what this would do to my reputation on the server and more importantly against my friends. I refuse to believe this thread was created without any malice.

Ruzi - I really do need to apologise for the way this went down, particularly to those who just logged on to find their shell had blown up. I guess didn't consider all the facets. In truth, I was just angry, and reacted harshly. Sorry to everyone this has affected =(


- Eli
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#11 Mar 06 2011 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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TheEliBear wrote:
Ruzi is completely right <.<
I tried not to break the pearl in a 'ragequit' style or anything; I offered it to any of the current leaders to take it up, but I quite truthfully (and stand by this) didn't want to continue on as leader due to the stigma created by Hugus's accustations (formalised or not). Y'know... exactly the same stigma this thread has created. Which is why I'm double PO'd about this thread, and have reacted the way I have.


I did leave VR in ragequit mode but not because of the alegations about botting (as I mentioned on the initial post they might have laid the foundations but before this conversation I was prpared to wait and see if the same situation would happen again) or even exploiting, I left because in my opinion as a LS member/officer the leader of the Ls I was part of just said that because it was SE's fault that thery left the possibility to exploit in game then we as players shouldn't be penalized by doing it even when I brought to your attention multiple times that even so it was against the Terms of Use and you then said you didn't care.

As I said before this is a bad approach to the game as a player (and had it been anyother player I would have talked to the other officers to concider dismissal from the LS, as it was this point of view was being put foward by the LS leader and not only did I feel that I could not be part of that LS like that but in my opinion a LS leader has to lead by example so i did the only thing I could do which was to leave the LS without making any accusations.

TheEliBear wrote:

[i]Hugus, I'd like to consider you a friend; but you're a smart guy, and there's no way you did this without considering what this would do to my reputation on the server and more importantly against my friends. I refuse to believe this thread was created without any malice.


If it's malice to make this issue known so that other LSs/people are aware of what happen and by pear pressure or necessity you see yourself forced to change your approach to the game then yes, this was posted by malice.
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#12 Mar 06 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
First I was going to let this go as I am not into forum witch hunting, but I need to back Hugus up on this, since by no means has he done anything wrong. (Well, at least if we check out people's comments on the thread we had earlier here about The Desperado)

What is the difference from having an excuse of being an auditor and working from home while crafting and saying that you have a 6 year old kid playing for you? Both of these people don't respond when talked to...
The Desoerado's name was dragged down to the mud because of botting, why shouldn't someone else, who is being suspected of the same thing have the same fate?

I actually have nothing against Eli, he is a nice guy but in my opinnion everyone should be getting the same treatment...


I am sorry for this comment, but I had to post it as I don't think it is fair that Hugus is being made the bad guy when he was the one who brought this up to the surface. I probably wouldn't have posted a whole new subject on ZAM for reasons I have mentioned before, but it doesn't make me think any less of Hugus because he did it.

If you are a linkshell leader (well everyone else too but LS leader especially), you need to make sure you play fair since you are known by EVERYONE in the linkshell and you will always be under magnifying glass (in good and in bad). You can't be a superhero and the villain at the same time...

AND to add (might as well since I have started) to this all, I am also a bit (a lot) annoyed that the website was taken down... Do you have any idea how long it took for me to write that VENT guide there?!??!?!?! And my shopping list was there as well... now I need to start from square 1.

GL Eli and if indeed you haven't been botting and all the stuff I have found out is just me being a paranoid woman, pls be my guest and throw the first stone at me. The only reason I am posting this is because I like Hugus and I don't want anyone to think that it was just him who had this idea.










Edited, Mar 6th 2011 5:14pm by LeilaniWildfire
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