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Would you blame SE if they scrapped FFXIV?Follow

#52 Mar 07 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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There are many, many more players than just those who play WoW, your lack of knowledge is showing.

Considering the amount of F2P MMOs and Korean MMOs out there, as well as the various western MMOs puttering along we're looking at easily over 20 million MMO players.

That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what's happened 6 months down the line, the game could be totally different and better for it or it could have pretty much died. Either way it doesnt affect me too much, I'm just messing about on a currently free to play MMO occasionally and enjoying the updates (which, since the restructure haven't been slow at all).

If you think SE would give up a flag-ship title that they intend to be around for at least another 5 years, you really don't know how companies work. Furthermore, it's become apparent that SE's new plan is to restore faith in the company (emphasised by the fact they're releasing XIII-2 in what appears to be redemption for the original which many considered to be sub-par, and Yoshi's constant referral to getting us to trust him again)

I don't think there's much he could do at this point to make people happy (Inb4 "FIX DE GAEM RIGHT NOW", an insight with little to no knowledge of the structure of the dev team and what they're working on now. I'll give you a clue, The Battle System.)
#53 Mar 07 2011 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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WillCider wrote:
The problem is its hard to make a game into something that it originally wasn't meant to be.


I disagree. If someone came up to me and asked me to build them a car but that they'd provide me with the body to work around It would take me a lot less than to build the body myself. This might be a bad example but either way the point being that when you have an almost finished product in your hand, its easier to fix it than to start from point zero. The only time you would scratch it is if the name has been tainted so bad that you don't think you'll benefit from it. Luck of the draw has it that SE gets a second chance with PS3 release and while server maintenance is expensive it is nothing compared to how much revenue they make from charging monthly for this game - so if SE makes this game work they have two (2) MMORPGs running and a steady inflow of monthly revenue to more than make up for "losses" incurred these last 6 months.
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#54 Mar 07 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
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LOL. If they were going to scrap FFXIV, they would have done it before bringing in a new development team.

Also, a few posts above talking about units shipped vs. units sold. This different does not matter to SE, as they have already sold the shipped units to the stores. Regardless of whether or not those copies get sold to customers, SE has already been paid for them.
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#55 Mar 07 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
I mean, get real, FFXI has been under 500k subscriber for 3 years.

It was not until TOAU release that they announce a 1 million break through.
FFXI never had 1 million subscribers. It plateaued around 500k.


How so? I remember seeing something on Playonline that they broke the 1 million sub milestone. I tried looking for it the other day but it doesn't look like they archive anything on playonline.
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#56 Mar 07 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Ostia wrote:
WAR sold a million units, so did AOC, So will Rift(The only next generation MMO besides FFXIV in the market now) fact is, that FFXIV has not sold the units they SHIPPED Yet!
I'm fairly sure Aion did as well.

Ostia wrote:
When a self proclaimed NEXT-GENERATION MMO! Launches
Don't forget, FFXIV will be a serious rival to WoW, so sayeth Wada!
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#57 Mar 07 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
I mean, get real, FFXI has been under 500k subscriber for 3 years.

It was not until TOAU release that they announce a 1 million break through.
FFXI never had 1 million subscribers. It plateaued around 500k.


How so? I remember seeing something on Playonline that they broke the 1 million sub milestone. I tried looking for it the other day but it doesn't look like they archive anything on playonline.


I would believe that they broke the milestone of "Millionth person to subscribe to FFXI".

I would not believe that FFXI broke "1 million currently active subscriptions" at any point in time, however.

I could be wrong.
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#58 Mar 07 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
I mean, get real, FFXI has been under 500k subscriber for 3 years.

It was not until TOAU release that they announce a 1 million break through.
FFXI never had 1 million subscribers. It plateaued around 500k.


How so? I remember seeing something on Playonline that they broke the 1 million sub milestone. I tried looking for it the other day but it doesn't look like they archive anything on playonline.


I would believe that they broke the milestone of "Millionth person to subscribe to FFXI".

I would not believe that FFXI broke "1 million currently active subscriptions" at any point in time, however.

I could be wrong.


You know maybe you're right cuz they didn't even have enough servers to carry that number I don't think. I'd say at most they may have reached 600k, making it about 20k per server (I don't remember # of servers but i'm thinking 30?) which is still a pretty awesome number.

Back on topic, thinking about it now I would honestly love for SE to take the game offline, rebuild the world, the gameplay, the this and that and then re-launch with something new and fresh because like someone said the people who already hate this game will find it hard to enjoy it no matter what they change down the road. I'm actually contemplating going back to FFXI. I wish all they did was take FFXI, make a new world, new graphics, new story, new lore, improve on the gameplay and they would've been golden...I don't know how they managed to go from that game to this game. I'm sorry I know it sounds like a broken recorder but I guess its because the game itself is so broken and the updates haven't changed much so far which I understand these things need time but for a company of SE's caliber they should've made time before dumping it on us.

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:09pm by SolidMack
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#59 Mar 07 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I think their smarter bet would be/would have been to shut off most of the servers and take FFXIV back to "closed beta". Fix it up, make it look good, then re-release it.


I don't think they can actually do this without saying that they're beginning development on FFXV immediately after the shutdown announcement, and/or moving future MMOs to their own side series.

Still, I wouldn't object if they decided to hold sales of the game, created a test server for testing daily/weekly patches, and then e-mailed former subscribers asking them to help improve the game. However, I don't think that'd work particularly well, either; people are ****** enough as it is.

Their chances of keeping the game afloat seem grim at this time.
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#60 Mar 07 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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FFXI bragged about hitting 2 million characters in 2009, not accounts.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news-ffxi/75080-vanadielian-population-tops-two-million-04-22-2009-a.html



Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I think their smarter bet would be/would have been to shut off most of the servers and take FFXIV back to "closed beta". Fix it up, make it look good, then re-release it.


I don't think they can actually do this without saying that they're beginning development on FFXV immediately after the shutdown announcement, and/or moving future MMOs to their own side series.

Still, I wouldn't object if they decided to hold sales of the game, created a test server for testing daily/weekly patches, and then e-mailed former subscribers asking them to help improve the game. However, I don't think that'd work particularly well, either; people are ****** enough as it is.

Their chances of keeping the game afloat seem grim at this time.


What I would do right now is merge the servers. Shove the maximum amount of currently "subscribed" players on each server ( so that they can then do REAL test of server stability and lag at a servers peak ) and then take the other servers offline.

Then, when they launch, each "new" server they add (re-add) will give the appearance of growth right from the re-launch.



Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:37pm by Zorvan
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#61 Mar 07 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Zorvan wrote:
FFXI bragged about hitting 2 million characters in 2009, not accounts.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news-ffxi/75080-vanadielian-population-tops-two-million-04-22-2009-a.html



Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I think their smarter bet would be/would have been to shut off most of the servers and take FFXIV back to "closed beta". Fix it up, make it look good, then re-release it.


I don't think they can actually do this without saying that they're beginning development on FFXV immediately after the shutdown announcement, and/or moving future MMOs to their own side series.

Still, I wouldn't object if they decided to hold sales of the game, created a test server for testing daily/weekly patches, and then e-mailed former subscribers asking them to help improve the game. However, I don't think that'd work particularly well, either; people are ****** enough as it is.

Their chances of keeping the game afloat seem grim at this time.


What I would do right now is merge the servers. Shove the maximum amount of currently "subscribed" players on each server ( so that they can then do REAL test of server stability and lag at a servers peak ) and then take the other servers offline.

Then, when they launch, each "new" server they add (re-add) will give the appearance of growth right from the re-launch.



Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:37pm by Zorvan


Another "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If they begin merging servers this early in the game's life, a lot of people will see it as the early signs of throwing in the towel. If you can look past that then it is a good idea in theory, but many people would not look at it that way. Think back for those who can remember to all teh "FFXI IZ DIEING!!!" threads on =10 when the first server merge happened and a second is on the way (With less "End of teh world" and more "Yay, more people to play with" this time around, but the same amount of "I'll miss my server")
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#62wrongfeifong, Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 2:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Tell that to blizzard ok?
#63 Mar 07 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Zorvan wrote:
FFXI bragged about hitting 2 million characters in 2009, not accounts.

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/news-ffxi/75080-vanadielian-population-tops-two-million-04-22-2009-a.html



Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I think their smarter bet would be/would have been to shut off most of the servers and take FFXIV back to "closed beta". Fix it up, make it look good, then re-release it.


I don't think they can actually do this without saying that they're beginning development on FFXV immediately after the shutdown announcement, and/or moving future MMOs to their own side series.

Still, I wouldn't object if they decided to hold sales of the game, created a test server for testing daily/weekly patches, and then e-mailed former subscribers asking them to help improve the game. However, I don't think that'd work particularly well, either; people are ****** enough as it is.

Their chances of keeping the game afloat seem grim at this time.


What I would do right now is merge the servers. Shove the maximum amount of currently "subscribed" players on each server ( so that they can then do REAL test of server stability and lag at a servers peak ) and then take the other servers offline.

Then, when they launch, each "new" server they add (re-add) will give the appearance of growth right from the re-launch.



Edited, Mar 7th 2011 3:37pm by Zorvan


Another "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If they begin merging servers this early in the game's life, a lot of people will see it as the early signs of throwing in the towel. If you can look past that then it is a good idea in theory, but many people would not look at it that way. Think back for those who can remember to all teh "FFXI IZ DIEING!!!" threads on =10 when the first server merge happened and a second is on the way (With less "End of teh world" and more "Yay, more people to play with" this time around, but the same amount of "I'll miss my server")



The game has been on life support **** near since the day it was launched. Everyone knows it's dying already. No sense in letting a perception that's already saturated the media and gamers prevent them from doing ultimately what's best.
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#64 Mar 07 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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wrongfeifong wrote:
As for the guy who quoted me, terrain in this game is not exactly copy and paste. Even if it is, these maps are BIG. For a game, nothing is wrong having tree A copy and pasted everywhere.

Blizzard does it, turbine does it, everyone does.

We are not building a new york here. a tree is a tree everywhere else, why do you want a tree look different from one to another?

beside, consider one critical point, IF they make every thing unique, meaning new textures, more rendering is needed.

You think your consumer harddrives can actually keep these data files in? I think you would need at least 200 TB or more.

SE need to keep this game under 40g for ps3 release, SE planned it hard.
Ahhh yes, "it's ok because other companies do it too." The major flaw in that logic is that good developers can hide the fact that they're reusing textures/models. At least, they can add procedural variations to give the illusion of some variety. This saves system resources by needing to only load a relatively small amount of data to produce a large number of variations in landscape. Of course I'm not saying that they should make every tree unique, don't be that purposefully stupid.
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#65 Mar 07 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
As for the guy who quoted me, terrain in this game is not exactly copy and paste. Even if it is, these maps are BIG. For a game, nothing is wrong having tree A copy and pasted everywhere.

Blizzard does it, turbine does it, everyone does.

We are not building a new york here. a tree is a tree everywhere else, why do you want a tree look different from one to another?

beside, consider one critical point, IF they make every thing unique, meaning new textures, more rendering is needed.

You think your consumer harddrives can actually keep these data files in? I think you would need at least 200 TB or more.

SE need to keep this game under 40g for ps3 release, SE planned it hard.
Ahhh yes, "it's ok because other companies do it too." The major flaw in that logic is that good developers can hide the fact that they're reusing textures/models. At least, they can add procedural variations to give the illusion of some variety. This saves system resources by needing to only load a relatively small amount of data to produce a large number of variations in landscape. Of course I'm not saying that they should make every tree unique, don't be that purposefully stupid.


Plus, there's a difference between copying a tree versus copying an acre of land. For most caves outside Limsa or most ramps outside Gridania, the physical layout and dimensions are exactly the same. If you look at FFXI, you'll see some good map design; the maps are sprawling, yet they aren't just duplicated areas except where this is intentional by design such as Tu'Lia or Oztroja where symmetry and construction are part of the design.

Conversely in XIV, the map will have entire sections of map that are copied. Do I expect them to hand craft every single rock and tree? No. But seeing the tree and rock in exactly the same place, every single time, gets old really fast.

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 4:36pm by Mikhalia
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#66 Mar 07 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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PeoplesChamp wrote:
What investors do people keep talking about? You mean stockholders? Stockholders don't get to make decisions for the company. Are you talking about the board of directors? Like Yoichi Wada? I'm sure it was his decision to change the development team so I'm confused about these investors that are gonna tell Yoshida to pull the plug.


I am referring to stockholders. And yes, you are correct in the assertion that stockholders can't make decisions for a company. However, stockholders can exert a definite amount of control over the major decisions a company makes.

http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/management/Sc-Str/Shareholders.html

Quote:

SHAREHOLDER CONTROL AND
CORPORATE DECISION MAKING

Since shareholders elect a corporation's directors, they can exert a significant amount of influence on a company and its policies, because directors know that they might be fired if shareholders are not satisfied with their performance and their decisions. Nevertheless, shareholders traditionally have been interested mostly in return on investment and hence they have not played a major role in company operations or governance, which they have left to boards and management. However, in recent decades investors have at times bought stocks to seize control of companies.

The influential shareholders are usually institutional shareholders who own large quantities of a company's stock and wield proportionate power. In contrast, individual investors have much less control and can influence decisions only by rallying large numbers of investors to support their position. Consumer advocate Ralph Nader introduced this process—often called a proxy fight—in 1969 to influence General Motors' policies towards public transportation, women, and minorities. However, the Securities and Exchange Commission issued a ruling in 1983 that helped prevent shareholders buying stocks solely to influence a company's operations. Despite this ruling, the practice of buying stocks to seize control of a company is common. When a company buys a significant share of stock of another company largely to influence its operations against its will, analysts refer to it as a hostile takeover. To prevent hostile takeovers, managers sometimes devote much effort to keeping stock prices high and other defensive tactics, although this strategy has harmed some companies ultimately.

One technique shareholders have used to link top management and shareholder goals has been issuing corporate executives stock options, which allow them to purchase stocks at some point in the future at a pre-determined price. If the stock price rises significantly over time (that is, well beyond the predetermined level), these options can provide a substantial profit opportunity for their holders. Therefore, if stock prices rise, both top managers and shareholders benefit and, in theory, their interests are more closely aligned.


To put this in laymans terms, there have been instances in the past where shareholders in a company that is loosing share value have pooled together and forced a change in leadership when a company is under-performing. Most pertinent though is the fact that shareholders are entitled to vote on major corporate actions, which are then enacted by the Board of Directors. If the shareholders wanted to pull the plug on FFXIV, they could cite poor management and force a change in leadership (which would oust Wada and replace him with someone whose goals would be more in-line with the will of the shareholders) for the sake of increasing shareholder dividends (which is based on company profits) or they could put FFXIV's life to a vote at a shareholders meeting (either the annual meeting or a special meeting that is convened in front of the Board of Directors).

This is all made possible due to Square-Enix being a publicly traded company.
#67 Mar 07 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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To be honest this game really is'nt going no where, while FFXI seem to be going even stronger, I dont even bother with FFXIV hardly anymore it just so plain boring. Realistically the fun factor in this game has drop to a minimum.

I really dont see the point of continuing to hold on to a game that it predecessor is clearly still dominating, and in that aspect getting even better. All the eye candy, updates, patches, etc still does'nt seem to be making any difference.. FFXIV just lacks that special something that makes it just fun to play, while FFXI still has that special something that we all just cant get enough from.
#68 Mar 07 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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If you go to the western coast of thanalan and gaze into the sea, you'll see
a pretty formation of rocks in the water...
facing another pretty formation of rocks in the water which is
facing another pretty formation of rocks in the water which
miraculously looks identical to the other two.

Know what: It's a secret message.
#69 Mar 07 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Default
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SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
What was their initial investment in this game, 30,000,000$? I don't know why that number comes to mind, I must of read something along those lines somewhere. So right now they're keeping servers, paying staff to work on the game, so the hole just keeps getting bigger, not to mention game sales probably earned them 2-3 million at the most. If you figure there will be about 30,000 active users come subscription time, that's 390,000/mth, so per year 4.7mil. Now of course that user base is expected to climb once ps3 see's it's release, so that number could climb quite high, and realistically triple.

Would I be surprised if SE scrapped XIV, very, would I be upset? Not really, I've put more hours into XIV then I do with most other games I paid 70$ for. Either way though, SE's lost a lot of money and needs quite a bit of time to make that money up and make this game profitable. I'm actually quite curious to see what happens with this game over the next year or so. Cause fact is, if it wasn't for the SE name attached to this game, it would have flopped a long time ago.


SE sold 650k boxes @ launch i believe. so at least $32,000,000 in box sales (@ $50.00 a box) , not sure what cut the retailer gets vs SE's share. so maybe SE took home less. So if SE spent 30mil on dev. for FFXIV then they have almost made up the cost already.



@ everyone else:

having a successful MMO doesn't mean having 1million plus subs. Look at CCP and Eve online, it hasn't reached the 1 million sub mark in its life time, but it's a successful MMO. Or Age of Conan, Everyone here can say that game was a flop, hyped, released, buried. It's still kicking it's got people playing it's a successful MMO for funcom, it's making them money. Warhammer online. It's barely alive down to 2 servers I believe but what two years later it's still going. This is what you can expect from SE; they will perceiver.

SE is a HUGE company, it's not these little studios that bank everything they have on one game and if that game fails then they are done for (APB studio). SE can and has already absorbed the costs of FFXIV. I'm sure they have run a cost analysis for keeping FFXIV active while restructuring the game and have come up with a plan. IF they plan fails then they will probably have another analysis of cost vs earnings of keeping it alive even further.

Again, while fans of post WoW MMO may have written FFXIV off already there is a player base that SE can and will make a profit off of by staying the course and righting FFXIV. It might be hard to realize and come to terms with that a game doesn't have to be main stream and have 100's of thousands and millions of players to be a success. FFXIV could have 3 servers and cater to 30k people and if they find a sustainable balance is that not a success? It's not a grand slam by any means, and no where near SE or players in general want to see this game, but finding that even keel is key to having further development cycles of the game.

Can FFXIV make SE money in the future SE thinks it will. Thats what matters, not the acceptance of the main stream, not millions of gamers approval.

P.S.
Like many others I'm waiting for FFXIV to bloom before I continue to play, I'll follow every update, I'll check these forums daily. And I won't lose hope for FFXIV till SE does.


This is exactly the type of attitude that most FFXIV players should adopt.

Nice post. Rated up.
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#70 Mar 07 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
If you go to the western coast of thanalan and gaze into the sea, you'll see
a pretty formation of rocks in the water...
facing another pretty formation of rocks in the water which is
facing another pretty formation of rocks in the water which
miraculously looks identical to the other two.

Know what: It's a secret message.


...the stone skipped twice.

"Have you seen my friend, Mr Monkey?!"
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#71 Mar 07 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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I think I'd only take the servers off-line if the game was going to comeback drastically different.

And I mean totally new areas and quests and things.

#72 Mar 07 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
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SolidMack wrote:
If someone came up to me and asked me to build them a car but that they'd provide me with the body to work around It would take me a lot less than to build the body myself. This might be a bad example but either way the point being that when you have an almost finished product in your hand, its easier to fix it than to start from point zero.


I agree. It is the efficiency of teamwork. We all know that it takes more than one person to create a high quality video game, especially something very complex like a RPG. With the help of others and one's own contribution, things will be alot quicker and more efficient.
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#73 Mar 07 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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To answer the OP, I couldnt for a second blame SE for scrapping XIV. Word to the wise though: If they indeed try to scrap it, you can bet the farm that we will NOT be seeing another attempt at a Final Fantasy online title. Which is really ashame honestly. I cant think of a bigger slam dunk idea than bringing FF into the mmo genre but somehow weve got what we have now.

There are so many random thoughts running through my head about all that has transpired. I find myself remembering back to the announcement at E3 however many moons ago that was and the fact that all who witnessed the unveiling first hand described pandemonium in the crowd as everyone was clapping and cheering at the images of a new FF. The end of the teaser video had the famous Final Fantasy XIV logo that was met with all the excitement one would expect. That was until the last few seconds when all of the sudden the word Online materialized. Immediately the crowd started booing, hissing, spitting, cussing, laughing, walking away, you get the idea.

How is this relevant you ask? Well my assessment from that initial unveiling, through alpha/beta testing and all the way up until March 7,2011, is that this whole online concept has been nothing but a side project for SE. This whole experience stinks to high heaven of being an under-budgeted, under-respected, understaffed and underdeveloped back burner title. In fact, I dont even blame Tanaka for the state of the game. There is no way on gods green earth that anyone involved thought this was ready to hit store shelves on a world wide stage. Even the state its in right now simply is nowhere close to launch worthy.

What they are finding out is that the die-hard XI players were and still are some of the most passionate fans to ever grace gaming. We did our part being their unpayed advertisers. XIV was set up to be a massive success because of our hard work selling the game to everyone in earshot. I know I did and now im completely embarrassed by the claims and hopes I had and thats really the kicker for me.

Anyways I was shocked to hear of the 30k active subs number. I know many many people on both sides of the fence about XIV and even the players that genuinely routing for its success, 30k isnt just a negative slam. Its a very accurate assessment across the board in fact. Think about it.... 30k for a F2P. The awful truth is becoming more apparent with every passing month. I hope agains hope for a complete 180 but its time, for me at least, to start being realistic as to XIV's future

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 6:49pm by KingRaul
#74 Mar 07 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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wrongfeifong wrote:
Diablo 1 vs diablo 2... what really different there?


- New story spanning 5 acts
- New classes, along with new abilities
- The addition of sockets to items
- The addition of a "Hardcore" mode, aka Permadeath

Quote:
Starcraft 1 vs starcrat 2? What is really different there?


- A new campaign that continues where Brood War left off
- New units and structures, with their own abilities and functions, along with new abilities or rebalancing for old units, leading to different strategies
- Additions to the interface that make it easier to navigate and use
- A revamped ladder system
- Multiplayer matchmaking
- An entirely new game engine, along with a new editor capable of making games in entirely different genres (eg. SC Rally, a kart racer; one of their demo projects was a third-person shooter, another was a shmup that made it into the actual game as a minigame)

Quote:
Halo 1, vs Halo Reach... what is different there?


For real? I haven't played any Halo beyond the first, but just comparing the first two games:

- A continuation of the story shortly after the first game
- New weapons--Beam Rifle, Covenant Carbine, Scoped Battle Rifle, a usable Fuel Rod Gun and Energy Sword...that's all I can recall atm
- A couple of new vehicles, mainly stuff that was available in Halo PC
- The addition of Xbox Live support
- New enemies, enemy variations, and enemy behaviors

Quote:
If FFXIV just add whatever FFXI have, then FFXIV wouldn't be call FFXIV, it should be call FFXI-remake.

Seriously, you expect SE to add "besieged ver.2" or "BCNM ver 2" or "SKY or SEA" to FFXIV? Those are FFXI's unique game play, FFXIV don't need to copy that.


No, the expectation was that they would build upon the **** that worked for them before while either reworking or replacing the **** that didn't, and making a better game as a result. It doesn't translate directly to carbon copies of the game's old events and content, but does translate to more refined implementations of the systems behind said content. The idea isn't to reinvent the wheel, but to just improve on the design of the existing wheel.

Quote:
You were wondering why FFXIII is different from FFI?


Actually, I'd turn the clock back to around the FFX days and ask just what the **** was wrong with the franchise the way it was when IX came out, and why the franchise as it was known back then suddenly had to change when it had been working pretty much without fail since ******* 1987. It was as if SE, not content with the goose laying golden eggs, decided to try for platinum, only to end up with bronze or silver. That's ****** up.

Quote:
I definitely deserve some rating ...to point out all these :P


You deserve nothing. Everything you posted was ignorant ****, and your constant fanboy ******** of SE makes me wonder what your agenda is.
____________________________
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#75 Mar 07 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I think their smarter bet would be/would have been to shut off most of the servers and take FFXIV back to "closed beta". Fix it up, make it look good, then re-release it.


Not a bad idea but perhaps they should take it a step further and re-release a solid game called FFXV.
#76 Mar 07 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Quanta wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
Diablo 1 vs diablo 2... what really different there?


- New story spanning 5 acts
- New classes, along with new abilities
- The addition of sockets to items
- The addition of a "Hardcore" mode, aka Permadeath

Quote:
Starcraft 1 vs starcrat 2? What is really different there?


- A new campaign that continues where Brood War left off
- New units and structures, with their own abilities and functions, along with new abilities or rebalancing for old units, leading to different strategies
- Additions to the interface that make it easier to navigate and use
- A revamped ladder system
- Multiplayer matchmaking
- An entirely new game engine, along with a new editor capable of making games in entirely different genres (eg. SC Rally, a kart racer; one of their demo projects was a third-person shooter, another was a shmup that made it into the actual game as a minigame)

Quote:
Halo 1, vs Halo Reach... what is different there?


For real? I haven't played any Halo beyond the first, but just comparing the first two games:

- A continuation of the story shortly after the first game
- New weapons--Beam Rifle, Covenant Carbine, Scoped Battle Rifle, a usable Fuel Rod Gun and Energy Sword...that's all I can recall atm
- A couple of new vehicles, mainly stuff that was available in Halo PC
- The addition of Xbox Live support
- New enemies, enemy variations, and enemy behaviors

Quote:
If FFXIV just add whatever FFXI have, then FFXIV wouldn't be call FFXIV, it should be call FFXI-remake.

Seriously, you expect SE to add "besieged ver.2" or "BCNM ver 2" or "SKY or SEA" to FFXIV? Those are FFXI's unique game play, FFXIV don't need to copy that.


No, the expectation was that they would build upon the sh*t that worked for them before while either reworking or replacing the sh*t that didn't, and making a better game as a result. It doesn't translate directly to carbon copies of the game's old events and content, but does translate to more refined implementations of the systems behind said content. The idea isn't to reinvent the wheel, but to just improve on the design of the existing wheel.

Quote:
You were wondering why FFXIII is different from FFI?


Actually, I'd turn the clock back to around the FFX days and ask just what the @#%^ was wrong with the franchise the way it was when IX came out, and why the franchise as it was known back then suddenly had to change when it had been working pretty much without fail since @#%^ing 1987. It was as if SE, not content with the goose laying golden eggs, decided to try for platinum, only to end up with bronze or silver. That's @#%^ed up.

Quote:
I definitely deserve some rating ...to point out all these :P


You deserve nothing. Everything you posted was ignorant sh*t, and your constant fanboy ******** of SE makes me wonder what your agenda is.


I really can not rate you up hard enough. I wanted to make much of the same points on Diablo and Starcraft but haven't played Halo reach to compare it. You've summed it up perfectly.
____________________________
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Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#77 Mar 07 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Back on topic, thinking about it now I would honestly love for SE to take the game offline, rebuild the world, the gameplay, the this and that and then re-launch with something new and fresh because like someone said the people who already hate this game will find it hard to enjoy it no matter what they change down the road.


I don't suppose I really have to point out that you can experience this right now, today, if you really want to.

Simply uninstall FFXIV and pretend like it actually did go offline. Then when the expansion comes out, give it another chance.

It's the perfect "let's not and say we did" scenario. :P
#78 Mar 07 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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230 posts
They should just scrap it. SE has kind of lost their touch over the years. Maybe without big mmo games to worry about they could focus on actually making decent console rpgs like they used to instead of just re-re-re-releasing retro games over and over.
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#79 Mar 07 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
Back on topic, thinking about it now I would honestly love for SE to take the game offline, rebuild the world, the gameplay, the this and that and then re-launch with something new and fresh because like someone said the people who already hate this game will find it hard to enjoy it no matter what they change down the road.


I don't suppose I really have to point out that you can experience this right now, today, if you really want to.

Simply uninstall FFXIV and pretend like it actually did go offline. Then when the expansion comes out, give it another chance.

It's the perfect "let's not and say we did" scenario. :P


Except you still have all the negativity and thrashing going on. I pointed this out in another thread, but I'll repeat it here.

FFXIV already got thrown to the wolves once, in the form of game reviews from "professional game reviewers". Now, the game is getting thrown to the wolves on a daily basis. Every day the servers stay open, that's another day someone else gets fed up with the way things are going and adds his/her/it's voice to the overwhelmingly loud orchestra of negativity. I myself am not exempt, so please don't think I'm pointing fingers.

Fact is, every day the servers stay open, this happens. And every day, that's more toll on S-E (both it's corporate image and it's employees), it's distribution channels (the stores that stock the game), and the consumers. I honestly believe that the game is doing more harm than good for everyone involved by remaining open. By taking the servers down, that would essentially cut the orchestra off. Oh sure, maybe it wouldn't happen overnight... it might take a couple of weeks... but eventually it would die down. And given the fact that we've got some pretty high-profile MMO's coming out this year (supposedly Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars: The Old Republic) and eventually people would forget about FFXIV... or at the very least the daily negativity would cease to exist.

And while the game is off-line, S-E can be doing whatever they feel they have to to fix the game... be it rebuild the game from the ground up content-wise or shelf the whole thing and turn FFXIV into a single-player game. Give it a year or two and your average person won't remember much about what we currently call FFXIV. They might remember it was a pretty bad MMO, but they'd be hard pressed to identify specifics. Which would be great for when they re-launch FFXIV (be it as an MMO or a single-player game). For proof of this, I refer you to APB. It suffered an abysmal launch and was ultimately shut down. It's now re-launched and has been fixed... and people are giving it a second look.

That is what needs to happen with FFXIV. I just don't see how keeping the servers up is doing any kind of good for S-E. I imagine morale over in the S-E offices is pretty low right now, and low morale is bad for performance. It's also not doing any good for the distribution channels because most gamers like to talk to other gamers while they shop. I used to be an assistant manager for a Game Crazy (before the company went belly-up) and games that had a bad rap did not sell... either because of employee discouragement or because of customer discouragement. I don't think I sold more than 3 copies of Two Worlds for XBOX 360... and that was due to customers actively discouraging other customers from buying the game. I myself discouraged people from buying it if they didn't have an internet connection so as to download the patch that makes the game semi-playable. It's also not doing any good for the consumer because with all this negativity going around and getting renewed every day, that impacts consumer adoption. You can't goto Amazon's page for FFXIV and not see thrash after thrash... and more thrashes get added rather frequently. Not to mention the word-of-mouth factor... none of my RL friends or colleagues will touch FFXIV based on my word-of-mouth. There's a pretty good chance their friends and colleagues won't touch FFXIV either... it's a vicious cycle and it all equals launch day... only now it's every day is launch day. Just like all those negative reviews on IGN, GameSpot, etc hurt the game when the game launched, now it's the continued existence of the game that hurts the game.

It just needs to go away for a while... at least until it's fixed. Give the poor employees at S-E a chance to get their morale up so they can start making good products again. Give people time to move on and fixate on something else so the bitter taste of FFXIV can finally be washed away.
#80 Mar 07 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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237 posts
Ostia wrote:
When a self proclaimed NEXT-GENERATION MMO! Launches and does not even brake's the 1 million mark of box sold, that on itself is a FAILURE!! WAR sold a million units, so did AOC, So will Rift(The only next generation MMO besides FFXIV in the market now) fact is, that FFXIV has not sold the units they SHIPPED Yet!

So there is a measurement we can use to know when a MMO has either failed or bombed, now sure a game can survive for X amount of time, with just a base number of users, but this is 2011, we know there are atleast 13 million people who play MMO's, and if you only have 30k well thats fail :)



There is absolutely nothing next gen about Rift. If you think FFXIV has copy pasta all over the place. Rift should be called RIFT: Copy Pasta Planes of World of Warhammercraft. I've been playing Rift and the game has failed to capture my excitement and utter attention. But it also hasn't turned me away I play a little here and there, but it does not a single thing original not one.
Rift is a play it safe MMO
FFXIV didn't.
I'm not saying what FFXIV did is a good thing, but it's more of a next gen title than rift can declare. FFXIV had the gumption to at least try a different approach battle and questing hubs in a different fashion. Even Character development. SE took a gamble and failed. Now It seems they will be headed in a direction closer to last gen MMOs.

There are 13 million people who like to play Warcraft out there. Not 13 million people who like MMO's.

I like Mario Bros. So does that mean I'll like Sonic the hedge hog?
Same genre, different games. I don't like Sonic.
____________________________
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#81 Mar 07 2011 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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oberonqa wrote:
Now, the game is getting thrown to the wolves on a daily basis. Every day the servers stay open, that's another day someone else gets fed up with the way things are going and adds his/her/it's voice to the overwhelmingly loud orchestra of negativity.

...

Fact is, every day the servers stay open, this happens. And every day, that's more toll on S-E (both it's corporate image and it's employees), it's distribution channels (the stores that stock the game), and the consumers.


The damage is done as far as negativity is concerned. Even if you shut down the servers today, any mere mention of FFXIV in the future will invoke knee-jerk "that game sucked balls" responses from anyone who remembered it. It makes little difference if the servers are actually still running or not.

Fact is, people have moved on, and it's only us die-hards that are left. We can be as negative as we want because no one else is paying attention, anyway. As I said, those that have heard of FFXIV already have the knee-jerk "that game sucked balls" mentality and have left it at that.

Keeping the servers open maintains a sliver of hope that, if things actually get pretty **** good, those that are left can work to change the minds of those who have written off FFXIV as that game that sucked balls. There's really nowhere to go but up as far as public opinion is concerned.
#82 Mar 07 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
oberonqa wrote:
Now, the game is getting thrown to the wolves on a daily basis. Every day the servers stay open, that's another day someone else gets fed up with the way things are going and adds his/her/it's voice to the overwhelmingly loud orchestra of negativity.

...

Fact is, every day the servers stay open, this happens. And every day, that's more toll on S-E (both it's corporate image and it's employees), it's distribution channels (the stores that stock the game), and the consumers.


The damage is done as far as negativity is concerned. Even if you shut down the servers today, any mere mention of FFXIV in the future will invoke knee-jerk "that game sucked balls" responses from anyone who remembered it. It makes little difference if the servers are actually still running or not.

Fact is, people have moved on, and it's only us die-hards that are left. We can be as negative as we want because no one else is paying attention, anyway. As I said, those that have heard of FFXIV already have the knee-jerk "that game sucked balls" mentality and have left it at that.

Keeping the servers open maintains a sliver of hope that, if things actually get pretty **** good, those that are left can work to change the minds of those who have written off FFXIV as that game that sucked balls. There's really nowhere to go but up as far as public opinion is concerned.


Then how do you explain APB doing so well after it's re-launch? Sure there are people who still remember APB's first launch, but the game is doing rather well despite having such an abysmal launch the first time around.

As far as public opinion.... it never will go up as long as people keep on going on and on about it. Every day there's more negative word-of-mouth and negativity spread across all consumer channels. Stores can't move any copies of FFXIV because no one in their right mind is going to pick up a game that has a 1 star rating on Amazon... and no one in their right mind is going to pick up a copy of the game when they get scared away from it the moment they ask the clerk at their game store of choice to see the back of the box.

To say nothing of the morale issue over at S-E central. Creativity requires a lot of self-confidence. How on earth can the artists over at S-E create anything truly remarkable when they are getting grilled at regular intervals by management about how poorly FFXIV has been received and how this is simply NOT acceptable? For that matter, how can the programmers do any kind of serious coding when they are being forced to sit through mindless meetings about how much people hate the game as it currently stands and how this is simply NOT acceptable?

I imagine for the employees over at S-E, they are probably fearing for their jobs and doing what they can to keep their heads down and out of the line of fire. That is not an atmosphere that encourages creativity. Quite the opposite... that is a crunch atmosphere. 15 hour days, seven days a week... all so the team can reach a milestone so they don't get fired. Games are not created in a crunch atmosphere.... nor are they fixed. Games are only finished in a crunch atmosphere (when 90% of the game is already completed and all that's left is assorted odds and ends).

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 5:39pm by oberonqa
#83 Mar 07 2011 at 7:39 PM Rating: Default
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219 posts
Quanta wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:
Diablo 1 vs diablo 2... what really different there?


- New story spanning 5 acts
- New classes, along with new abilities
- The addition of sockets to items
- The addition of a "Hardcore" mode, aka Permadeath

Quote:
Starcraft 1 vs starcrat 2? What is really different there?


- A new campaign that continues where Brood War left off
- New units and structures, with their own abilities and functions, along with new abilities or rebalancing for old units, leading to different strategies
- Additions to the interface that make it easier to navigate and use
- A revamped ladder system
- Multiplayer matchmaking
- An entirely new game engine, along with a new editor capable of making games in entirely different genres (eg. SC Rally, a kart racer; one of their demo projects was a third-person shooter, another was a shmup that made it into the actual game as a minigame)

Quote:
Halo 1, vs Halo Reach... what is different there?


For real? I haven't played any Halo beyond the first, but just comparing the first two games:

- A continuation of the story shortly after the first game
- New weapons--Beam Rifle, Covenant Carbine, Scoped Battle Rifle, a usable Fuel Rod Gun and Energy Sword...that's all I can recall atm
- A couple of new vehicles, mainly stuff that was available in Halo PC
- The addition of Xbox Live support
- New enemies, enemy variations, and enemy behaviors

Quote:
If FFXIV just add whatever FFXI have, then FFXIV wouldn't be call FFXIV, it should be call FFXI-remake.

Seriously, you expect SE to add "besieged ver.2" or "BCNM ver 2" or "SKY or SEA" to FFXIV? Those are FFXI's unique game play, FFXIV don't need to copy that.


No, the expectation was that they would build upon the sh*t that worked for them before while either reworking or replacing the sh*t that didn't, and making a better game as a result. It doesn't translate directly to carbon copies of the game's old events and content, but does translate to more refined implementations of the systems behind said content. The idea isn't to reinvent the wheel, but to just improve on the design of the existing wheel.

Quote:
You were wondering why FFXIII is different from FFI?


Actually, I'd turn the clock back to around the FFX days and ask just what the @#%^ was wrong with the franchise the way it was when IX came out, and why the franchise as it was known back then suddenly had to change when it had been working pretty much without fail since @#%^ing 1987. It was as if SE, not content with the goose laying golden eggs, decided to try for platinum, only to end up with bronze or silver. That's @#%^ed up.

Quote:
I definitely deserve some rating ...to point out all these :P


You deserve nothing. Everything you posted was ignorant sh*t, and your constant fanboy ******** of SE makes me wonder what your agenda is.



I don't see you just continue to play FFXI instead of FFXIV.

If you feel there is absolute change in diablo 1 to 2 or even starcraft 1 to 2, i am pretty sure you are just better off with a FFXI expansion because what a FFXI expansion normally add is the following

1. 1-2 new job
2. a whole new line of story
3. New campaigns games (like besieged for taou or campaign for WOTF)
4. revamp some system and improve stability.
5. add something to the old.

great job SE, you just made diablo 1 to 2 look bad and starcrat 1 to 2 look bad because that upgrade takes SE roughly 1-2 year while it takes them 5-10 years.

I was seriously disappointed at starcraft 2 because campaign is something i already expect, there is no new game play, no new WAY of playing Multiplayers, No improvement on graphic (i mean intensive), no improvement on controls or UI.

starcraft 2 is like some random fan mod starcraft 1 in the end.

even final fantasy have been changing its game play FFXI is online game, FFXII introduced a new complete system (RTS-like), FFXIII is already something different from a RPG.


And yes, i am a SE fanboi, however, i believe my comments are a lot better then the whole lot of you people who

1. Don't appreciate people's work, you can post something like "scrap" this and that when these people spent 2-3 years of their life in working keeping in mind to provide the best quality they can different from FFXI.

2. You don't take consideration of how the real world works. FFXIV can be in BETA for long time, but that will damage their image of releasing FF series on a continuous basis. They can't release FFXV ahead of a FFXIV. If they decide to NOT using FFXIV and making a new MMORPG, they understand that their sales might not even as good. Players are playing this game because of its franchise and NAME, Look at the pre-order numbers.

3. As side from all that, you want them to LOSE money, when they are doing their best at a come back. Instead of encourage them and player's EFFORT into getting to level 50, you people want to scrap a game where players spent hours of time on this game already.

4. Time constraint.

You know what? you can rate me down all i care, because i am very disgusted by people like you, and most of the reader in this post. Ignore me all you like, i don't want to continue brother argue with ignorants kids who have no idea how the real world works.

These people need to feed their families too, you want them to lose their job for something "less enjoyable" and you want them "dead" when they are constantly battle to survive the market. You people disgust me for your own selfishness to no end.

If you don't like the game, DON'T play it then, who care about what you think? everyone of us in the world have a different taste. That is why i can tell differences between one game while you can't. That is why i am a fanboy of SE and you aren't

I will keep rooting for FFXIV because i believe in them. Because they have show me the MAGIC of FFXI, i will continue to believe in them as long they have potential to show me the same magic.

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 8:43pm by wrongfeifong
#84 Mar 07 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Wow.
#85 Mar 07 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
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oberonqa wrote:
And people also seem to forget that the first Closed Beta for FFXIV started in April 2010. Those same people also seem to forget that for the most part, the game we're playing today (March 2011) is the same game we were given to play around with in April 2010. Oh sure we've got some bug fixes and a few new features, but overall it's the same exact game.


F A L S E.

# The Beta Test begins tomorrow! Have you already installed the client software? If not, get to it! 4:55 AM Jul 9th, 2010 via web 
 
# The Beta Test begins on Saturday, July 10 ! https://dev-na.ffxiv.com/ https://dev-eu.ffxiv.com/ 1:12 AM Jul 8th, 2010 via web 


This is taken from SE's own Twitter site. The closed *ALPHA* only started three weeks before this.

Where do you people start getting this April date from? Closed beta started on July 10th, 2010. *NOT* in April. Stop trying to make it seem like this game had more testing than it actually did.

oberonqa wrote:
But you know what.... almost a year after the first Closed Beta started and still looking at what is essentially the same game has jaded me. And what's worse? I'm having the time of my life playing FFXI again... a game that is nine years old. A shame S-E didn't learn anything from it's nine year old workhorse.


I agree that the game right now is a steaming pile, but you're barely past the half year mark for the *ALPHA* phase. Don't pull out that year disclaimer just yet.
#86 Mar 07 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
oberonqa wrote:
And people also seem to forget that the first Closed Beta for FFXIV started in April 2010. Those same people also seem to forget that for the most part, the game we're playing today (March 2011) is the same game we were given to play around with in April 2010. Oh sure we've got some bug fixes and a few new features, but overall it's the same exact game.


F A L S E.

# The Beta Test begins tomorrow! Have you already installed the client software? If not, get to it! 4:55 AM Jul 9th, 2010 via web 
 
# The Beta Test begins on Saturday, July 10 ! https://dev-na.ffxiv.com/ https://dev-eu.ffxiv.com/ 1:12 AM Jul 8th, 2010 via web 


This is taken from SE's own Twitter site. The closed *ALPHA* only started three weeks before this.

Where do you people start getting this April date from? Closed beta started on July 10th, 2010. *NOT* in April. Stop trying to make it seem like this game had more testing than it actually did.


Ok you got me there... I was referring to the ALPHA tests that started in April... which also included the invitation-only test phase for random people who registered their copy of the PS3 version of Final Fantasy XIII.

Quote:
I agree that the game right now is a steaming pile, but you're barely past the half year mark for the *ALPHA* phase. Don't pull out that year disclaimer just yet.


I can and will assert the year disclaimer, since it's been almost a year since Final Fantasy XIV was opened to testing by individuals outside of Square-Enix QA. And you know what... the game hasn't changed all that much from when I got into that first test-phase after being randomly selected.

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 6:19pm by oberonqa
#87 Mar 07 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
This is taken from SE's own Twitter site. The closed *ALPHA* only started three weeks before this.

Where do you people start getting this April date from? Closed beta started on July 10th, 2010. *NOT* in April. Stop trying to make it seem like this game had more testing than it actually did.


LOL

That "Alpha" nonsense was just semantics. Real beta testing begins when you start letting the outside world test your software. They may have called it "Alpha" in April but that's not how the software industry at large uses the term. Really, SE doesn't need apologists for FFXIV. There's nothing but a smoldering ruin to defend, here. It's not worth your time.
#88 Mar 07 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Default
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Close. Alpha, from the Greek word for the number 1, is literally the first stage of testing. If they happened to allow said testing to be done by more than just employees, so be it. Beta is stage 2, also from the Greek word for said number. It's not schematics at all. It's simple numbers.
#89 Mar 07 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
Close. Alpha, from the Greek word for the number 1, is literally the first stage of testing. If they happened to allow said testing to be done by more than just employees, so be it. Beta is stage 2, also from the Greek word for said number. It's not schematics at all. It's simple numbers.


Or you could just look it up to see how people in the industry actually use the term. Facts are so much more relevant when you know what you're talking about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_testing#Alpha_testing
#90 Mar 07 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing.

In short, it is the first stage of semi-operational to operational testing.

As you can plainly see, even in the somewhat unreliable wikipedia article you used for your quoting, alpha testing can be done by the consumer.

Funniest part is the testing stages aren't even listed in the proper order.



Edited, Mar 8th 2011 8:36am by Uryuu
#91 Mar 07 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing.

In short, it is the first stage of semi-operational to operational testing.

As you can plainly see, even in the somewhat unreliable wikipedia article you uses for your quoting, alpha testing can be done by the consumer.

Funniest part is the testing stages aren't even listed in the proper order.

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 9:21pm by Uryuu


Sadly... you seem to be suffering from a lack of understanding of the test process. Alpha refers to a build that is feature-incomplete. It's generally applied to a working prototype that has defining features, but isn't yet ready to be previewed by anyone outside of the company. Alpha is also used to display proof-of-concept for designs in progress... a working model if you will. Testing in this phase revolves around testing the features that are present as well as providing feedback on how those features are implemented. Alpha software rarely resembles a finished product.

Beta refers to a built that is feature-complete. It's generally applied to software that is considered to be ready for general testing. Generally, no major features are added to software that has a beta tag and software testing revolves around the identification and resolution of bugs. Software at this point and beyond is generally considered to be ready to be previewed by people outside the company, and is generally shown off at trade-shows (such as E3).

After beta is the Release Candidate, which is generally applied to software that is considered to be ready for publication. Generally, most major bugs have been identified and resolved at this point and testing revolves around configuration-specific testing to identify compatibility issues.

After the Release Candidate is the Gold Master, which is generally applied to software that has reached the point where most major bugs have been identified and resolved and most configuration-related issues have been identified and resolved. Gold Master software is what is sent to the production and distribution centers to be boxed/shipped and sold.

This is the test cycle for your standard software QA department. To apply this to FFXIV, the Alpha testing was in April-June. Beta testing was the Closed Beta in July. Release Candidate testing was the Open Beta in August-September. Gold Master was the Release Candidate. It should be noted that the game is now effectively back in the Alpha phase, as new features are being added to the game and therefore can no longer be considered "feature-complete".

Edited, Mar 7th 2011 7:41pm by oberonqa
#92 Mar 07 2011 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
Alpha testing is simulated or actual operational testing by potential users/customers or an independent test team at the developers' site. Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing.


Now, at least, you wish to argue in terms of the definition, and that's so much better for everyone involved.

However, your emphasis missed the most important part which is this:

"Alpha testing is often employed for off-the-shelf software as a form of internal acceptance testing, before the software goes to beta testing."

Alpha testing is done internally. Yes, it may involve letting a few future customers test it, but it's done in a close-to-the-vest manner with your most trusted customers.

The fact we had public sign-ups and people like Pookiepoo leaking so-called "alpha footage" belies the fact this wasn't really an alpha test in the slightest. Only a very select, elite, trustworthy, and lawsuit-vulnerable few would ever be allowed at a real alpha test table.
#93 Mar 07 2011 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Ostia wrote:
When a self proclaimed NEXT-GENERATION MMO! Launches and does not even brake's the 1 million mark of box sold, that on itself is a FAILURE!! WAR sold a million units, so did AOC, So will Rift(The only next generation MMO besides FFXIV in the market now) fact is, that FFXIV has not sold the units they SHIPPED Yet!

So there is a measurement we can use to know when a MMO has either failed or bombed, now sure a game can survive for X amount of time, with just a base number of users, but this is 2011, we know there are atleast 13 million people who play MMO's, and if you only have 30k well thats fail :)



There is absolutely nothing next gen about Rift. If you think FFXIV has copy pasta all over the place. Rift should be called RIFT: Copy Pasta Planes of World of Warhammercraft. I've been playing Rift and the game has failed to capture my excitement and utter attention. But it also hasn't turned me away I play a little here and there, but it does not a single thing original not one.
Rift is a play it safe MMO
FFXIV didn't.
I'm not saying what FFXIV did is a good thing, but it's more of a next gen title than rift can declare. FFXIV had the gumption to at least try a different approach battle and questing hubs in a different fashion. Even Character development. SE took a gamble and failed. Now It seems they will be headed in a direction closer to last gen MMOs.

There are 13 million people who like to play Warcraft out there. Not 13 million people who like MMO's.

I like Mario Bros. So does that mean I'll like Sonic the hedge hog?
Same genre, different games. I don't like Sonic.


By next gen they do not mean by any means "Graphics" wish is what most FF fans seem to care about next gen anyways, they mean that the game at launch will be as smooth as a game that has already been released, that it will launch with a surplus of content, and features, not the FFXIV way, where they released a skeleton of a game and are hoping people stick around until they add something of value. In rift from the get go, you are bombarded with quests and things to do, as you progress you get access to dungeons, rift raids, etc etc. There is a vast array of things to do besides grinding endlessly.
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#94 Mar 08 2011 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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At this point, I think FFXIV's best hope is that it some day, years from now, is a good game to play (not unlike FFXI, despite XI's shrinking subscription base-- just because the game is better doesn't mean people will start to play it, unfortunately). At the very least, it has the basic foundation to allow for that.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#95 Mar 08 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
You may be surprised yet what a good full sized expansion could do for FFXIV.
#96 Mar 08 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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237 posts
Ostia wrote:
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Ostia wrote:
When a self proclaimed NEXT-GENERATION MMO! Launches and does not even brake's the 1 million mark of box sold, that on itself is a FAILURE!! WAR sold a million units, so did AOC, So will Rift(The only next generation MMO besides FFXIV in the market now) fact is, that FFXIV has not sold the units they SHIPPED Yet!

So there is a measurement we can use to know when a MMO has either failed or bombed, now sure a game can survive for X amount of time, with just a base number of users, but this is 2011, we know there are atleast 13 million people who play MMO's, and if you only have 30k well thats fail :)



There is absolutely nothing next gen about Rift. If you think FFXIV has copy pasta all over the place. Rift should be called RIFT: Copy Pasta Planes of World of Warhammercraft. I've been playing Rift and the game has failed to capture my excitement and utter attention. But it also hasn't turned me away I play a little here and there, but it does not a single thing original not one.
Rift is a play it safe MMO
FFXIV didn't.
I'm not saying what FFXIV did is a good thing, but it's more of a next gen title than rift can declare. FFXIV had the gumption to at least try a different approach battle and questing hubs in a different fashion. Even Character development. SE took a gamble and failed. Now It seems they will be headed in a direction closer to last gen MMOs.

There are 13 million people who like to play Warcraft out there. Not 13 million people who like MMO's.

I like Mario Bros. So does that mean I'll like Sonic the hedge hog?
Same genre, different games. I don't like Sonic.


By next gen they do not mean by any means "Graphics" wish is what most FF fans seem to care about next gen anyways, they mean that the game at launch will be as smooth as a game that has already been released, that it will launch with a surplus of content, and features, not the FFXIV way, where they released a skeleton of a game and are hoping people stick around until they add something of value. In rift from the get go, you are bombarded with quests and things to do, as you progress you get access to dungeons, rift raids, etc etc. There is a vast array of things to do besides grinding endlessly.


I don't think next gen means complete and I never once mentioned graphics. Next gen means (to me) new concepts, new gameplay, new technology. Rift does none of those. It copied everything from "last gen" and did it again, not even with a huge twist, Which makes it last gen. FFXIV on the other hand created an "action" based battle system, player defined classes, central quest locations (guildleves) and built a game engine from the ground up. None of those things are popular with current games, because they were implemented half realized or just poorly. But it's more new concepts for gaming than anything Rift does.
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#97 Mar 08 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think far too many games are trying to use the words "next gen" to imply some sort of inherent indescribable awesomeness.
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#98 Mar 08 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is another reason why SE does not want to give up on FFXIV: it is a numbered entry into the Final Fantasy series. A FF game failing to the point where SE pulls the plug, admitting the game was not good will forever cheapen their flagship series. Of course that's the risk they took making XI and XIV part of the series. On one hand, it will sell more copies. I originally heard Square claim they estimated 25% higher sales by naming it Final Fantasy XI over Final Fantasy Online. But, on the other hand, a failed MMO, means a forever black mark on the Final Fantasy franchise tag.
#99 Mar 08 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Ostia wrote:
SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Ostia wrote:
When a self proclaimed NEXT-GENERATION MMO! Launches and does not even brake's the 1 million mark of box sold, that on itself is a FAILURE!! WAR sold a million units, so did AOC, So will Rift(The only next generation MMO besides FFXIV in the market now) fact is, that FFXIV has not sold the units they SHIPPED Yet!

So there is a measurement we can use to know when a MMO has either failed or bombed, now sure a game can survive for X amount of time, with just a base number of users, but this is 2011, we know there are atleast 13 million people who play MMO's, and if you only have 30k well thats fail :)



There is absolutely nothing next gen about Rift. If you think FFXIV has copy pasta all over the place. Rift should be called RIFT: Copy Pasta Planes of World of Warhammercraft. I've been playing Rift and the game has failed to capture my excitement and utter attention. But it also hasn't turned me away I play a little here and there, but it does not a single thing original not one.
Rift is a play it safe MMO
FFXIV didn't.
I'm not saying what FFXIV did is a good thing, but it's more of a next gen title than rift can declare. FFXIV had the gumption to at least try a different approach battle and questing hubs in a different fashion. Even Character development. SE took a gamble and failed. Now It seems they will be headed in a direction closer to last gen MMOs.

There are 13 million people who like to play Warcraft out there. Not 13 million people who like MMO's.

I like Mario Bros. So does that mean I'll like Sonic the hedge hog?
Same genre, different games. I don't like Sonic.


By next gen they do not mean by any means "Graphics" wish is what most FF fans seem to care about next gen anyways, they mean that the game at launch will be as smooth as a game that has already been released, that it will launch with a surplus of content, and features, not the FFXIV way, where they released a skeleton of a game and are hoping people stick around until they add something of value. In rift from the get go, you are bombarded with quests and things to do, as you progress you get access to dungeons, rift raids, etc etc. There is a vast array of things to do besides grinding endlessly.


I don't think next gen means complete and I never once mentioned graphics. Next gen means (to me) new concepts, new gameplay, new technology. Rift does none of those. It copied everything from "last gen" and did it again, not even with a huge twist, Which makes it last gen. FFXIV on the other hand created an "action" based battle system, player defined classes, central quest locations (guildleves) and built a game engine from the ground up. None of those things are popular with current games, because they were implemented half realized or just poorly. But it's more new concepts for gaming than anything Rift does.


Lmao! Really the battle system is new and unique ? REALLY ? central quest locations ? You mean wow dailies ? Player defined classes ? you mean alo rift a lo FF10-12-13 ? and creating an engine from the ground up, yup aion dint do that, wow dint do that, rift dint do that nope nope, sorry i tend to forget they all use unreal engine sorry about that LOL
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#100 Mar 08 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
Close. Alpha, from the Greek word for the number 1, is literally the first stage of testing. If they happened to allow said testing to be done by more than just employees, so be it. Beta is stage 2, also from the Greek word for said number. It's not schematics at all. It's simple numbers.



Ooh, so close and yet so far.

Alpha and beta are the first two letters of the Greek alphabet - in fact, they are the source of the word "alphabet" to begin with.

"1" and "2" in Greek are "ena" and "duo".

SevenLittleChipmunks wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
What was their initial investment in this game, 30,000,000$? I don't know why that number comes to mind, I must of read something along those lines somewhere. So right now they're keeping servers, paying staff to work on the game, so the hole just keeps getting bigger, not to mention game sales probably earned them 2-3 million at the most. If you figure there will be about 30,000 active users come subscription time, that's 390,000/mth, so per year 4.7mil. Now of course that user base is expected to climb once ps3 see's it's release, so that number could climb quite high, and realistically triple.

Would I be surprised if SE scrapped XIV, very, would I be upset? Not really, I've put more hours into XIV then I do with most other games I paid 70$ for. Either way though, SE's lost a lot of money and needs quite a bit of time to make that money up and make this game profitable. I'm actually quite curious to see what happens with this game over the next year or so. Cause fact is, if it wasn't for the SE name attached to this game, it would have flopped a long time ago.


SE sold 650k boxes @ launch i believe. so at least $32,000,000 in box sales (@ $50.00 a box) , not sure what cut the retailer gets vs SE's share. so maybe SE took home less. So if SE spent 30mil on dev. for FFXIV then they have almost made up the cost already.


The estimates I've seen put the development budget of FFXIV somewhere around $30,000,000 to $50,000,000. The publisher only gets about 50% of the retail price, so assuming 650,000 copies at $50 each is roughly $16,000,000 of revenue, still leaving them $14,000,000 to $34,000,000 in the hole. Plus ongoing operating expenses.

Quote:
having a successful MMO doesn't mean having 1million plus subs. Look at CCP and Eve online, it hasn't reached the 1 million sub mark in its life time, but it's a successful MMO. Or Age of Conan, Everyone here can say that game was a flop, hyped, released, buried. It's still kicking it's got people playing it's a successful MMO for funcom, it's making them money. Warhammer online. It's barely alive down to 2 servers I believe but what two years later it's still going. This is what you can expect from SE; they will perceiver.


"Successful" in this context means, in short, profitable. CCP made EVE Online knowing full well that they were targeting a smaller demographic, and so kept their development expenses low. Their development budget was a mere $2.4 million - for comparison, they now pull in more than that every month in subscription fees.

Age of Conan and Warhammer Online both pulled in enough revenue just from initial box sales that they made a profit before they even started collecting subscription fees - thus, both games have essentially been profitable from day one, and will continue to be profitable as long as their player bases are large enough to cover the cost of maintaining at least one server.

As mentioned above, FFXIV is still in the red, and every additional day of operation right now is making that debt grow larger.

Uryuu wrote:
Realistically, they can keep the servers running forever. You're forgetting that SE isn't some one-hit wonder like many of the smaller game companies, and in addition to making their own wildly popular games, publishes for smaller studios. It takes less than a million a year to run fifty separate worlds with full pay for the staff, so they can easily afford to take a little profit hit to keep up their PR and eventually rake in more cash once they finish fixing the game up.


Less than $1 million a year? Please be serious.

Back when FFXI had 32 servers, it was costing SE $2 million a month to run them.

And, realistically, they CAN'T keep the FFXIV servers running forever. Sure, they have the cash flow to make it feasible, but they're a business, and businesses exist to make profit. The servers are only staying up for now because the execs believe FFXIV can be made into something profitable in the near future.

The only other reason to keep the servers up and running is to maintain the goodwill and brand loyalty of the current player base. If the player base is small (as FFXIV's is) and/or has a low overall attach rate (i.e. doesn't spend very much on other SE products), this is likely to not outweigh the cost of keeping the servers up.

If it looks to the owners (i.e. shareholders) that FFXIV will never be profitable, or will cost too much to get into a profitable state (i.e. has too low a return-on-investment), then one of two things will happen: 1) FFXIV is shutdown, or 2) several executives and FFXIV developers lose their jobs and FFXIV is shutdown.

OK, theoretically there's a third option - cutting their losses by selling the game to a different developer - but I don't think that is particularly likely, and that requires finding someone who's willing to buy it. And a fourth option - having FFXIV operation subsidized by the Japanese government - but that's about as likely to happen as there being an invisible pink unicorn hiding in my liver.
#101 Mar 08 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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BastokFL wrote:
Uryuu wrote:
Close. Alpha, from the Greek word for the number 1, is literally the first stage of testing. If they happened to allow said testing to be done by more than just employees, so be it. Beta is stage 2, also from the Greek word for said number. It's not schematics at all. It's simple numbers.



Ooh, so close and yet so far.

Alpha and beta are the first two letters of the Greek alphabet - in fact, they are the source of the word "alphabet" to begin with.

"1" and "2" in Greek are "ena" and "duo".


The alpha character stood for 1, beta for 2 , ... and so on back in ancient Greek they are called Ionian numerals. He should have said ancient Greek instead of Greek.

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