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"Ethical Leeching". A brilliant MMORPG strategy.Follow

#1 Mar 09 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Default
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Politics is a dirty game. No matter how you look at it, people in general are very immoral. We are born to be selfish in this world. It is a trait that we have been given that allows the ability to survive... And yet ironically, our own selfishness and ego are often the ones that bring us down...

Instead of trying to repress your real desires and thoughts, it is best to live with them and actually USE them for good. What matters is how you use them, not what you use them for... And as much as I admit that I myself have done some social manipulation in FFXIV to get my way, I believe that anyone who is successful in game-politics consciously or subconsciously do the same thing.

I am posting this article to describe to everyone a great method to use your inherent amorality to actually GREATLY BENEFIT not just yourself, but other players as well. I call it Ethical Leeching.

I have been playing Guild Wars for a little bit and I must say that it has become my favorite MMORPG so far. I've touched EverQuest II, played LotRO for a few hours, and am playing FFXIV semi-hardcore, and those games do not compare to the enjoyment that I experience in Guild Wars. With all my experience playing all those games, I have learned how to... (gulp)... take advantage of players for my own good.

But it's not just about that. I have noticed that it is not always about you... Becoming someone who leeches off of people requires... not being selfish. It's weird. It's ironic. But it is the TRUTH.

Let us look at it in a very fundamental, no-brainer way. Imagine you are in Eorzea and you are a rank 30 marauder... or conjurer, or archer, whatever. Some rank 10 newbie waved to you, and let's say he did or said something that made you absolutely sure that he is trying to take something away from you (doesn't matter if it is gils, items, or your time to help him on some things.), what exactly would you do?

...

Thought so. There's no way in the world you will bother helping him/er, or at least it will lessen the likelihood of you helping him/her.

On the other hand, if you have someone who is rank 25 (while you're rank 30) and offers to share you his/her leves, you would definitely join him if you have the time. In my experience playing in Eorzea, I rarely have someone tell me that they would rather play solo than deny joining my levequests. It is how I made Eliza very notorious (both spawning HATERS and LOVERS.).

Compare these two sentences:

"Hi. I need help with leves! Help me plz!"

Or...

"Are you interested in joining my levequests? I'm willing to share them with you."

See the difference? Both players wanted the same thing, but the latter's lack of selfishness have made him look like a person of understanding and consideration. Those are the type of people who become LEADERS of the most epic hunt downs of Notorious Monsters and massive-scale-levelinking with fifteen people.

That is how you leech ethically. As much as you are doing something mainly for YOURSELF, you are sharing the benefits with other people.

I have gathered my knowledge and have come up with rules to follow when doing ethical leeching (in no particular order):

1. Keep your words short but full of achievable and genuine promises. Don't make an essay when it comes to searching a party member. People are busy and have no time to read a proposal on why they should join you on your levequests. Instead, say something short and promising like, "Hi. Would you be interested in joining my levequests? It should be fun and it'll give us a nice SP boost." The worst thing you will hear is "No thank you. I'm busy right now." And if they say something rude, you don't need to waste your time on them.

2. Once you get a good party, don't be greedy for more. It is important to realize that once you have acquired what you are looking for, you must stop. Don't annoy people by having them wait for you to search for more members.

3. Be patient. There comes a point where you reach the type of political savvyness to where you can effortlessly form a levelinking party out of nowhere. It does take time, but not forever. You will get there. There are also times when no one seems to want to party with you at that moment. It's okay. It happens to everyone.

4. Know your role. Perfect example... My Eliza Joran is a gladiatress who can't tank to save her life. In fact, her VIT is in teens and she is a rank 39 gladiator. Does this mean she's useless? NO. She's a crazy damage-dealer. As long as there is a decent healer in the group, she has no plans of inhibiting her attacking prowess. Knowing your role enables you to be confident in the group and makes you very active.

(There are probably more that I should add, but this is all I can come up for now.)



Good luck in your adventures.

Edited, Mar 9th 2011 8:53am by ViKtoricus
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#2 Mar 09 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Default
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5. Learn proper timing. You must be on the right place at the right time before even trying to make people join you. If you want to do a behest, it's best to find people who are in the actual Camp in which you are planning to join the behest on. It takes both experience and common sense in order to do this properly.
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#3 Mar 09 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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I kept waiting for the payoff but it never came. :(
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#4ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 8:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What do you mean?
#5 Mar 09 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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ViKtoricus wrote:
Eliza Joran is a gladiatress who can't tank to save her life. In fact, her VIT is in teens and she is a rank 39 gladiator. Does this mean she's useless? NO. She's a crazy damage-dealer. As long as there is a decent healer in the group, she has no plans of inhibiting her attacking prowess. Edited, Mar 9th 2011 8:53am by ViKtoricus


Lovely and eloquent as this is, I'm fairly sure you can have the best of both worlds considering the incredibly minor effect all stats bar VIT seem to have at this point. Buffing up your strength at the loss of HP is probably an unwise bit of advice, at least until stats are re-tooled. I'm fairly skeptical you're a 'crazy damage-dealer' compared to anyone else unless gear is a factor.

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It is how I made Eliza very notorious


I think this is for you.

I should add, there are some nice tips here. Good grammar and spelling go a long way to making people not think you're a total ***, as well as the fact that I and so many others have very little respect or time for people who stumble up to you and beg for shinies.

Edited, Mar 9th 2011 9:37am by Dlaqev
#6ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 8:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) She is only level 37 in physical and I plan on maxing out STR and DEX before even bothering on any other attribute.
#7 Mar 09 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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ViKtoricus wrote:

4. Know your role. Perfect example... My Eliza Joran is a gladiatress who can't tank to save her life. In fact, her VIT is in teens and she is a rank 39 gladiator. Does this mean she's useless? NO. She's a crazy damage-dealer. As long as there is a decent healer in the group, she has no plans of inhibiting her attacking prowess. Knowing your role enables you to be confident in the group and makes you very active.


As a rank 48 Gladiator, I have gotten far enough to know that I will never out DPS most other classes. Getting that far I have learned that the Gladiator will tank much better than being the lead attacker. I don't believe that you can do better when the stat attributes really aren't very effective as it is.
#8 Mar 09 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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This thread could basically be called "common sense" or, "what not to do, noob". You basically wrote a short essay - albeit an eloquent and moderately entertaining one - detailing the difference between begging for help to get what you want and suggesting cooperation to get what you want; maybe some people who are new to the MMO genre will find it useful, but I would imagine anyone whose played their share of MMO... or had enough life experience, will already know that begging/aggressively implying that you could use a favor rarely gets you what you want and that suggesting cooperative teamwork, or a tradeoff, is a much more likely way to reach your goal.

In that past, whenever someone in FFXI would /check me on one of my level 75 jobs (pre-cap increase) and start drooling over every piece of gear and saying things like "whoa!! holy! you have a hagun, haubergeon (NQ) and peacock charm (ex version, mind you) you must be super mega rich! Yeah... I've only got like, 2,310 gil to my name - the most I ever had was 5,000 gil" it made two things seem blatantly obvious - one, whether they were saying it outright or not, they were probably looking for a hand out, and two, they were probably a teenager.

The general gist of this thread is correct, but it seems like something a veteran MMO player should have figured out on their own, and new MMO players should learn, rather than think they've found some secret method of manipulating higher levels into helping them. It's not ABOUT manipulating - it's about community (as all MMOs are). If you think of it solely as a method of manipulating the players around you into getting what YOU want than you're missing the entire point of WHY it works. MMOs are made for people to play together, but not many people want to take the time to help a stranger unless their can be some mutual benefit - don't think of it as manipulating players; think of it as targeting players who have similar goals/desires as you.
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#9 Mar 09 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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I find the OP quite ironic, Your saying to do this negative thing with a positive spin yet selling it to us in a negative fasion.

Appealing to our 'naughty' side to appear 'great' in the eyes of others or achieve self gain. In terms of 'ethical' leeching I would say this kind of attitude is just as bad as not bothering. A Pig with lipstick is still a pig. Why not actually do it for other people and not just with the selfish intentions, we're sat behind a screen and most likely never to see the other people in real life, but there are real people behind it. Do something nice for someone, **** I nearly bought a bunch of gear for someone to help them out, I have a ton of Gil I dont need it, why not make his day...
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#10 Mar 09 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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MCraine wrote:
It's not ABOUT manipulating - it's about community (as all MMOs are). If you think of it solely as a method of manipulating the players around you into getting what YOU want than you're missing the entire point of WHY it works. MMOs are made for people to play together, but not many people want to take the time to help a stranger unless their can be some mutual benefit - don't think of it as manipulating players; think of it as targeting players who have similar goals/desires as you.


likes this
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#11 Mar 09 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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ViKtoricus wrote:
It is how I made Eliza very notorious (both spawning HATERS and LOVERS.).


got to here and just started loling. you're a newb. sorry, but that's the truth. and it's nicer than the word i was going to use. nothing you said even approaches being as revolutionary as you make it out to be.

this isn't politics. it's an mmo. you need someone for a group, you invite people. it goes without saying that when you interact with players in an mmo, especially when you are inviting them to your group, you should do so in a respectful and diplomatic manner. no one likes a whiner or a beggar.

you haven't played many mmos, it is clear, by your your extreme over-analyzation of one of the most pedestrian of mmo scenarios, the party invite. i can't really fault you for inexperience, but i can fault you for delusionary thinking. btw, your character Eliza is not "very notorious". you're on an underpopulated server in a failure of a game. think about it. no one really cares.

are there political aspects to an mmo? sure, when you're in a real guild that actually does events over a long period of time. And by events, i dont mean behest and leve linking. When you start dealing with the same people every day in your guild (yes, linkshell, w/e) then politics can come into play to some extent. hopefully not, since im here to play a game, not **** around trying to manipulate people. ethically or not.
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#12 Mar 09 2011 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
Is it still ethical leeching when the guy joins behest with his 2 alts on auto follow? Just wondering...

As to how you phrase things, yes it makes all the difference.
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#13 Mar 09 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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So tl;dr: "If you're gonna be a mooch, at least be polite about it"?

True words, I guess. True IRL too.
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#14 Mar 09 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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This is written in such a bizarre way.
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#15 Mar 09 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Decent
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there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.

back when i used to play XI the only form of leeching i accepted was if the leecher had a PL with him, or he was the PL.
#16 Mar 09 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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its written in a bizarre way because, from what i can see, the poster is actually intelligent (or at least well read), just confused and naive.
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#17ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 3:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The funny thing about it is that if I actually (or if SOMEONE) decides to ethically leech on you, you wouldn't even know it until it was too late... In fact, you probably would never realize it unless the leecher rubs it in your face, which is rare. (Most likely he or she will just thank you for helping out, say goodbye, and then add you to his or her friend list. Whether he/she decides to leech on you again is almost her power and control and you will most likely just become a puppet.).
#18ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 3:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. Because that would violate rule number five.
#19 Mar 09 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
Keysofgaruda wrote:
there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.


1st part, you're wrong... look up Symbiosis (coulda spelled it wrong, but it should be easy to find what I mean)

2nd part... I've been told multiple times that I shouldn't create parties in Behest because I kick leeches. I don't mind if people want to leech in certain Behests (ie not the ones where 30+ people try to join and 15+ walk away sad) but even then only if they ask... if you say "Hey we don't have a full 15, do you mind if I have my alt join as well... sure it'll be on auto follow but it should increase the mob count... win win and all that" (like how I kinda brought it back on topic? ^.^)

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#20ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 3:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Agreed.
#21 Mar 09 2011 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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ViKtoricus wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.

back when i used to play XI the only form of leeching i accepted was if the leecher had a PL with him, or he was the PL.


The funny thing about it is that if I actually (or if SOMEONE) decides to ethically leech on you, you wouldn't even know it until it was too late... In fact, you probably would never realize it unless the leecher rubs it in your face, which is rare. (Most likely he or she will just thank you for helping out, say goodbye, and then add you to his or her friend list. Whether he/she decides to leech on you again is almost her power and control and you will most likely just become a puppet.).



See, in most MMOs this is called making a friend/buddy. You worked together towards a mutual benefit - sure, one person may have benefited a little more if they're too weak to have achieved it without the other's help, but you both got something you wanted, be it EXP, completion of a quest, etc. - and added eachother as friends so you could maybe work together in the future again. You're severely devaluing the whole "friendship" aspects of MMOs... I actually wonder what it might be like to be your friend in real life; do you chuckle to yourself and think "thanks for letting me use your xbox all day, sucker" after you leave your friends house? I'm not really sure how this is leeching if it "usually" ends in saying "hey, thanks for the help, let me add you as a friend, maybe we can play again some day".
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#22 Mar 09 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
...

Also,
Quote:
gladiator

Quote:
crazy damage-dealer

I don't think we should listen to this person.

On second thought, it is pretty funny.

OK--I don't think we should take this person seriously.

Edited, Mar 10th 2011 12:21am by Almalexia
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#23 Mar 10 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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ViKtoricus wrote:
PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.


1st part, you're wrong... look up Symbiosis (coulda spelled it wrong, but it should be easy to find what I mean)

2nd part... I've been told multiple times that I shouldn't create parties in Behest because I kick leeches. I don't mind if people want to leech in certain Behests (ie not the ones where 30+ people try to join and 15+ walk away sad) but even then only if they ask... if you say "Hey we don't have a full 15, do you mind if I have my alt join as well... sure it'll be on auto follow but it should increase the mob count... win win and all that" (like how I kinda brought it back on topic? ^.^)



Agreed.

Let us just put it this way. Who in here did NOT use their parents to help themselves survive? Who in here decided to kill themselves because they were thinking "Hey... I'm better off dead so that my dad doesn't have to keep his 2 full time jobs just to have an extra mouth to feed."

I was once roleplaying with a friend and I sat down with him to get some advice on how to manage my roleplaying linkshell... Here are his exact words.

People are self obssessed and egotistic, so it helps to have events that benefit their game, like ranking up together, or events that reward with items.

I am a selfish jerk. I enjoy joining behests or levequests (whether being the party leader or not) for my OWN personal gains. I care more about my own gains more than the gains of the other players, even though I may or may not feel guilty about it... And so are you. So is everyone of you. It is how you deal with your own devils that count.



listen, whatever crisis of the self you are going through IRL, leave it there. XIV is a game. it'd be better for everyone, including yourself, it you treated it that way.
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#24 Mar 10 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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ViKtoricus wrote:
PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.


1st part, you're wrong... look up Symbiosis (coulda spelled it wrong, but it should be easy to find what I mean)

2nd part... I've been told multiple times that I shouldn't create parties in Behest because I kick leeches. I don't mind if people want to leech in certain Behests (ie not the ones where 30+ people try to join and 15+ walk away sad) but even then only if they ask... if you say "Hey we don't have a full 15, do you mind if I have my alt join as well... sure it'll be on auto follow but it should increase the mob count... win win and all that" (like how I kinda brought it back on topic? ^.^)



Agreed.

Let us just put it this way. Who in here did NOT use their parents to help themselves survive? Who in here decided to kill themselves because they were thinking "Hey... I'm better off dead so that my dad doesn't have to keep his 2 full time jobs just to have an extra mouth to feed."

I was once roleplaying with a friend and I sat down with him to get some advice on how to manage my roleplaying linkshell... Here are his exact words.

People are self obssessed and egotistic, so it helps to have events that benefit their game, like ranking up together, or events that reward with items.

I am a selfish jerk. I enjoy joining behests or levequests (whether being the party leader or not) for my OWN personal gains. I care more about my own gains more than the gains of the other players, even though I may or may not feel guilty about it... And so are you. So is everyone of you. It is how you deal with your own devils that count.



I hate to say this, but I am actually glad to have people like you playing this game.

I encourage any new players to FFXIV to join a party that someone of your caliber will be in, simply so that they learn at a much faster place what not to do. Thank you for being around to help others grow, and leech off of your selfishness.
#25 Mar 10 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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My God the OP is a self-righteous prick. I love the holier-than-thou, condescending BS spewing from every post trying to explain the immorality of people. As was already mentioned, not all leeching is bad, symbiosis (you actually DID spell it right) occurs all the time and is mutually beneficial. ****, it occurs all the time IN-GAME. Instead of 2 people soloing their leves, they join up, kill mobs faster, leve-link when applicable, and benefit. Even if 1 of the players has less leves than the other, it's not a bad thing. Both players recieve more than they would have solo, so it's mutually beneficial.

Now, if you're going to join a group and contribute NO leves, you can just crawl right back into that hole you came out of. Being that kind of leech, even if you're polite about it, is being an ******* and a quick way to make my blist.
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#26 Mar 10 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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I'm wondering if the OP attends Westboro Baptist Church.
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#27 Mar 10 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'm wondering if the OP attends Westboro Baptist Church.


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#28 Mar 10 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
there really isn't any good form of leeching. even if the leecher is being polite. if i'm the party leader and your leeching, you get kicked.


1st part, you're wrong... look up Symbiosis (coulda spelled it wrong, but it should be easy to find what I mean)

2nd part... I've been told multiple times that I shouldn't create parties in Behest because I kick leeches. I don't mind if people want to leech in certain Behests (ie not the ones where 30+ people try to join and 15+ walk away sad) but even then only if they ask... if you say "Hey we don't have a full 15, do you mind if I have my alt join as well... sure it'll be on auto follow but it should increase the mob count... win win and all that" (like how I kinda brought it back on topic? ^.^)



symbiosis has nothing to do with this game at all, so that point is irrelevant.

as i stated in my original post, i only accept certain kinds of leeching, that will benefit me or my party. if your getting a leech for behest because it increases the mob count, awesome, he is helping in some way.

i'm not sure if i made it clear enough in my original, but as long as the leech benefits the party in such a way that having him is better than having no one, then i'll let the leech stay. that or as long as it isn't giving a negative effect on the party.

a leech usually is a person who is getting something, without having to do much, if anything. it's these kind of leeches i don't like. it's a different story if he asks to leech and you say yes, because you agreed to it. but if a guy joins my party and goes afk 10 minutes later forever, or comes to kill a NM and just sits there waiting for loot distribution, then he is going to get kicked and replaced.
#29ViKtoricus, Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Me too. And so does everyone else.
#30 Mar 10 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
Keysofgaruda wrote:
symbiosis has nothing to do with this game at all, so that point is irrelevant.


I wasn't trying to be an *** to you, I was just being a smart ***. I know what you were refering to and agree, thus point 2 ^.^ Sorry if I came across wrong.
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#31 Mar 10 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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So all you are telling us is that even when we are being nice to each other we are really only doing it for selfish reasons, whether we realize it or not.

To which my response is, so the **** what!? This is how the world works and as long as people like you shut up and play along, no one gets hurt.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here anyway? You want everyone to see you as some cool azshole but don't want to be alienated like an azshole. So here you are trying to make sure everyone knows you are an azshole just in case we were fooled by your in-game "niceness".

Oddest thread ever.


#32 Mar 10 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Mithsavvy wrote:
So all you are telling us is that even when we are being nice to each other we are really only doing it for selfish reasons, whether we realize it or not.

To which my response is, so the @#%^ what!? This is how the world works and as long as people like you shut up and play along, no one gets hurt.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here anyway? You want everyone to see you as some cool azshole but don't want to be alienated like an azshole. So here you are trying to make sure everyone knows you are an azshole just in case we were fooled by your in-game "niceness".

Oddest thread ever.




LOL... maybe one of the next times he logs in:


OP: "Are you interested in joining my levequests? I'm willing to share them with you."

Random Adventurer: "Sure, I don't see why n... waaaiit a minute. You're that *** hat from the zam forums. Nah, I'd rather not let you leech off me."

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#33 Mar 10 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
rikkuotaku wrote:
I kept waiting for the payoff but it never came. :(


I was thinking this thread would be more about borrowing concepts from other MMOs. I was wrong Smiley: tongue
#34 Mar 11 2011 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
symbiosis has nothing to do with this game at all, so that point is irrelevant.


I wasn't trying to be an *** to you, I was just being a smart ***. I know what you were refering to and agree, thus point 2 ^.^ Sorry if I came across wrong.


no it's my bad, i haven't been having a great week. but ya i can take a joke so don't worry about it in the future :)
#35 Mar 14 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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lol seriously you don't have to be a MMO veteran to know all that even before beginning a game.

It's hilarious how the writer thinks he's struck gold by some very basic "How to play with other people 101"

So much bs that I need a shower after wading through that =D
#36 Mar 14 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Very funny thread, made me lulz. I agree with the person that said this should be called the common sense thread.
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#37 Mar 19 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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How is this NOT in the game manual?????
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"Don't take it personally man, white knights would eat a can of **** if the label said SE on it. If anyone dared mention that it was not a good product, they'd just argue if someone can't appreciate the subtle nuances in the ****, they should just go back to eating lolrealfood, cuz the devs prolly know more about canning food than they do."
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