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#1 Mar 19 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
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So, there's been plenty of threads lately...some of them more useless than others....not naming any names...

But I though I'd touch on this aspect of XIV's future: Physical Levels. So here's my two gil:

I've heard (read?) many different arguements regarding physical levels, the pros and cons for doing away with them, and what the potential backlash for the player-base in general might be. Needless to say, I'm thick-skulled, and didn't pay much attention.

In my mind, it would seem as if the one (see how it's not caps-locked?) thing FFXIV has going for it, is the complete control and manipulation of our character's growth and development. Let me cite an example:

Mistress Theonehio wrote:

I don't find it too flexible only because attributes as a whole is unbalanced currently so I don't truthfully feel the effects or benefits beyond Vit (HP) and Mnd (MP) so auto statup + appropriate gear (like FFXI) I feel would be a lot better. It's nice to pick and choose what to level up, but the fact stats mean so little in this game currently eh..I think if they focus stats on a class by class basis it would do a lot more for you since the flexibility still comes in the form of mixing and matching skills.


I think this is what most all of us are thinking. (And I beg pardon, Mistress, for singling you out. But I think you made my point for me)

And yet, the inherant problem with this line of reasoning is the fact that if they do remove PL, and just adjust the class bonuses accordingly...

...well...

...I won't be able to nuke sh*t as hard.

If they could balance the attributes so that they worked, I would be much more in favor of keeping PL. This way, I could let my diabolical little blm mind go to work on the INT and the PIE. With whatever gear seems appropriate to my class as a magical damage dealer. And if they could manage to fix the attributes (as Yoshi-P has suggested) there would be no reason to remove PL at all, and thus we'd get to keep, and indeed expand upon the fundamental core gameplay that XIV introduced to us: The ability to customize our gameplay to suit our desires.

Specifically, to kill it with fire. Twice. But that might just be me.

Opinions?

Edited, Mar 23rd 2011 12:44pm by Osarion
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#2 Mar 19 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Good
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What is this I don't even...
#3 Mar 19 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Default
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
What is this I don't even...

Did I lose you on that sharp right turn there?

I was making two points. Which is even more amusing, if you know who The Bill from Thanatos Minor is.

Obscure references ftmfw.
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lolgaxe wrote:
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#4 Mar 19 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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So, there's been plenty of threads lately...some of them more useless than others....not naming any names...

Quote:
Not another useless ViK thread...
Just sayin'.
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#5 Mar 20 2011 at 12:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'll bite. I feel like I'm in a damned-if-I-do, damned-if-I-don't situation. I have a R50 Conjurer that I take on NM hunts with the LS buddies. I'm also currently levelling LNC and I am in love with it. At current, this setup is ok because I kinda split my stats with a lot in VIT and the rest more balanced, and since stats don't matter too much anyway it's ok. However, I would like stats to matter, but if they did I wouldn't be able to play both disciplines very effectively under the current system. If they get rid of physical level and make stats more effective then I can switch freely between the disciplines without handicapping either one.

The best way to do this, in my opinion, is to allow class-specific point allotment at every rank up. This way I can have my LNC built for melee and my CON built for magic (plus I'm still assigning the points, therefore my build is still unique). Could they do this without taking out physical levels? Sure they can, but making stat allotment class-specific completely defeats the purpose of physical levels. Why have 2 different measurements for progress when 1 does the job just as well? Also, 2 separate leveling systems is just 1 more system that's more complex than necessary, making the learning curve that much steeper.

I know that for some people physical level 50 is a sign of accomplishment, but honestly, I found it far too simple to reach physical 50, and I really couldn't care less about it.

Edit: 2AM spelling

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 2:40am by bunsisbuns
#6 Mar 20 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
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I also wish they just kept Physical Levels in the game, but wouldn't care too much if they removed it. Like you, I also enjoy maxing out my stats to make me the best tank possible. If this makes me a weaker thm or con on my offdays (days when I'm not playing my main GLA) then so be it, it's the sacrifice I'm willing to make. If I really wanted a well balanced character, I would just balance my stats. Nonono, this wouldn't work because people would complain that my GLA was much better than theirs presuming they had a more balanced stat allocation to make them reasonably good mages.

Why shouldn't I be better at my class if I sacrifice the others? Only answer I can think of: "It's not fair, we should all be the same!"

Unfortunately we are in the living in a time where the masses of people don't want to have to make a choice like this. They want us to generally all be the same, have the same stats, have the same gear that drops with 100% rates, etc. Games are only fun when you're winning attitude.

Maybe I don't fully understand the argument about removing them?
Either way though, I don't really care.

EDIT: forgot to mention, SE didn't even lock us into stats by the races we selected. O.o I find it hard to complain beyond that,we can pick whatever we want >.> I bet people would be ****** if they took away physical levels, but also assigned different stats for each race/job etc.

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 3:32am by BadJoRed

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 3:38am by BadJoRed
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#7 Mar 20 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wintersage wrote:
If they could balance the attributes so that they worked, I would be much more in favor of keeping PL.
Yeah, that's how I see it too.

I'm really hoping SE doesn't remove one of the key ways to customize my character.

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 1:48am by Kirby
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#8 Mar 20 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
Yeah, I'm going to compare FFXI to FFXIV. Brace yourselves.

Actually, it's a pretty simple thought I had while reading this.

Disregard for a moment whatever influence the physical attributes may have over a character or class. I don't mean "forget that MND helps this and VIT helps that", I mean the extent to which each attribute has an effect.

Starting out in FFXI, for the stats for each race and job didn't stray too far apart. In other words, starting as a Hume, the difference in the INT stat between BLM and WAR was what? Maybe 6 points if that? I used Hume in that example because as of now, in FFXIV there is no difference in the starting stats for any race, and Hume was the most balanced in FFXI.

I'm going to assume for a moment that a lot of people are doing what I did; upon determining what stat(s) have the most positive influence on my chosen class, immediately and disproportionally bumped those stats up. So here I am as a fisher, physical level 42, and my dexterity and piety are both at 90 and everything else is minimal.

This becomes a problem when I want to play something like gladiator. "Sorry, I would tank but my VIT is 20 right now." In FFXI we didn't have that issue because the stats were controlled by the game, obviously. Changing jobs simply meant swapping out gear and eating different food, as it does to an extent already in FFXIV.

When I started at the CE launch I was **** bent on playing Fisher, Alchemist, and Culinary, and that's it. Now I'm seeing the benefits of having all the DoL and DoH raised. (repairs, production, income, being able to process anything I get in the field). One thing I'm going to try when I get back to FFXIV is restructuring my stats so they're pretty balanced across the board. Assuming that they function in some way similar to the elemental attributes (a little goes a long way), then a well balanced set of stats would allow the flexibility of using one or two "reassignments" to adjust appropriately for another class.

Sidebar: I've got all my elemental attributes set evenly now, except for wind, which is 2 or 3 points higher than all the others. When fishing I catch wind almost exclusively.

I forget whether you can reassign stats every 1 or 2 hours. Stop me if I'm wrong, but 20 points redistributed over already somewhat balanced stats, along with food and whatever gear is available at this point, should make enough of a difference to positively influence whatever class you might be working on.

The point of my ramble? Stats in FFXI were governed by the system and were all within reach of one another. Trying to govern our own stats in a similar way may help be more effective over multiple classes.

This is just a little brain **** I had while reading through this thread. I'm wondering if there will be any merit to it and I'm going to try it when we get a chance to play again.

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 10:37am by mattkujata
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#9 Mar 20 2011 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Wintersage wrote:
If they could balance the attributes so that they worked, I would be much more in favor of keeping PL.
Yeah, that's how I see it too.

I'm really hoping SE doesn't remove one of the key ways to customize my character.


Many thanks for your positive feedback. But I need to get through a pair of potatoes before we hit the meat:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Just sayin'.

The obvious doesn't stand a chance, not with you on the lookout.

Apologies. Now, for my meat:
mattkujata wrote:

Disregard for a moment whatever influence the physical attributes may have over a character or class. I don't mean "forget that MND helps this and VIT helps that", I mean the extent to which each attribute has an effect.

Starting out in FFXI, for the stats for each race and job didn't stray too far apart. In other words, starting as a Hume, the difference in the INT stat between BLM and WAR was what? Maybe 6 points if that? I used Hume in that example because as of now, in FFXIV there is no difference in the starting stats for any race, and Hume was the most balanced in FFXI.

I'm going to assume for a moment that a lot of people are doing what I did; upon determining what stat(s) have the most positive influence on my chosen class, immediately and disproportionally bumped those stats up. So here I am as a fisher, physical level 42, and my dexterity and piety are both at 90 and everything else is minimal.

This becomes a problem when I want to play something like gladiator. "Sorry, I would tank but my VIT is 20 right now." In FFXI we didn't have that issue because the stats were controlled by the game, obviously. Changing jobs simply meant swapping out gear and eating different food, as it does to an extent already in FFXIV.


This is pretty much my point. Right here. In a nutshell.

And here we sit, thinking that there's only two ways out of this conundrum: the present way, or Yoshi-P's way. But what if there where a third option?

Granted, if it were up to me, every skill in this game would be questable, every spell a trial (You'll have to forgive me this, but I think XIV would've worked out a lot better with a skill-based/class-less model), but what if instead the team used an overlay scheme instead? And I posit this based on the direction the team seems to want to take...

...what if switching to blm (assuming classes here) gave you a hefty boost to int and slightly less to pie and mnd? In addition to what you already had allocated?

What if the classes gave you benefits to stats on top of what you already had? For instance, what if I switched to GLD (Something I haven't done, and never want to do....but for sake of example...) and with the stat boost I got from switching to the class, I could wind up a...somewhat sub-par GLD? Given that my stats are allocated to be blm friendly.

And should I switch to blm, well all the more better, because I'd be able to nuke far harder, faster, quicker, and with a resilient exo-skeleton made of metal....sorry. Got carried away. But you see my point.

If the class system they introduce comes with a major tweaking of the importance of the stats we assign, and with a boost to certain stats based on the class we've just switched to....win/win?
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#10 Mar 21 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wintersage wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
What is this I don't even...

Did I lose you on that sharp right turn there?

I was making two points. Which is even more amusing, if you know who The Bill from Thanatos Minor is.

Obscure references ftmfw.


It's just that couching a serious discussion on Physical Levels under the auspices of a promiscuous troll is more guile than I'm used to around here. Carry on.
#11 Mar 21 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
mattkujata wrote:
This becomes a problem when I want to play something like gladiator. "Sorry, I would tank but my VIT is 20 right now."


I just wanted to chip in to say that any player who is leaving their VIT at 20 should get used to running back from the Aetheryte often.

The game is allowing you set your own points right now, don't skip on HP. Please?

The most powerful nuker is the one who is still alive to nuke during the last 10% of the battle.

Edited, Mar 21st 2011 5:29pm by SmashingtonWho
#12 Mar 21 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
SmashingtonWho wrote:
mattkujata wrote:
This becomes a problem when I want to play something like gladiator. "Sorry, I would tank but my VIT is 20 right now."


I just wanted to chip in to say that any player who is leaving their VIT at 20 should get used to running back from the Aetheryte often.
[/i]


I tend to exaggerate to make a point. My VIT is actually at 50. Lodestone Profile.
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#13 Mar 21 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Sure, I understand. It's the players that leave their VIT at 20 in Rank 35+ parties that boogle my mind.

You can tell as soon as they join with ~600 HP that they are doomed.
#14 Mar 22 2011 at 12:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
Sure, I understand. It's the players that leave their VIT at 20 in Rank 35+ parties that boogle my mind.

You can tell as soon as they join with ~600 HP that they are doomed.


It's typical Taru BLM mentality from FFXI, or the "glass cannon" if you will. Sad thing is, if somehow lowering your Max HP even further could make you nuke even harder, I'm sure people would do it. :P
#15 Mar 22 2011 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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^ Yeah, that's one way to look at it. Nukers and most DD will have as close to 0 VIT as they can sneak passed their team members, just so long as they can get DEM SCREENSHOTS of the LEET DAMAGESSSSS they do right before they die.

it's sad and funny, but it's true

pls give us our sp penalty for death!
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#16 Mar 22 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
Nukers and most DD will have as close to 0 VIT as they can sneak passed their team members, just so long as they can get DEM SCREENSHOTS of the LEET DAMAGESSSSS they do right before they die.

it's sad and funny, but it's true

pls give us our sp penalty for death!


I don't see why. It never stopped them before, lol.
#17 Mar 22 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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^ lol, so true.
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#18 Mar 22 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with stats is the same problem that we have in the job system already. Obviously, the general population wants to be efficient at their selected role. So if a player decides they want to deal massive amounts of damage, and be a ranged character, they're probably going to go with Archer, (as we don't have Black Mages in the game. We just have gimpy healers).

An Archer will probably choose the best stats for their class, mainly Dex and Str, (why did they get rid of Agility and replace it with Piety? Really frustrating...).

One of the main things that the game was advertised with was the ability to change jobs at the drop of a hat, or in our case, equip of a weapon. Unfortunately, we retain the stats that we have already spent points into, unless we want to make things messy and redistribute them. If one does this, then they have given up their min/max build for their previous job.

Example: Taking stats out of Dexterity and Strength, and putting them into Mind and Piety so an Archer can change into a Conjurer.

They take away their abilities to deal maximum damage as an Archer because they are not, at the time, playing an Archer. If they want to change to one of the DoM classes, then they need more caster-based stats. Unfortunately, we are only given a portion of our stats to reassign. This means that not only will we not be great at our new role, (although better than if we hadn't reassigned), but we also won't be as good when we re-reassign to go back to being an Archer.

It's very frustrating. Most players like to min/max their stats, so they can boast being efficient at their chosen role. But because the game is a shapeless blob that lacks anything resembling definition, we have people running around with stats in everything because they can't reassign enough points into something.

Before the servers went down, I was trying to reassign my points to be a better caster. I had wanted to level Pugilist to get the trait that lets me be healed for 10% more HP. (Seemed useful, considering threat is still random as ****). Unfortunately, I had to reassign my stats to be more Pug friendly. Then when I went to change back, it only took a small portion away from my STR and DEX stats. So now I'm reassigning as many times as I can to get them back to being the bare minimum so I can max my other stats.

Granted, I can still play my THM. But the 40 points in STR does me no justice. I'd rather have those points in Piety so my debuffs will stick.

Yes, it would be a **** of a lot easier if they just went back to the other Final Fantasy MMO system that had individual stats for their jobs. Physical level is a joke, anyway. The only benefit is having more HP when leveling other jobs. And to be honest, I'd rather we didn't have that. I think it makes leveling secondary jobs too easy. I see a rank 1 Gladiator casting Tier 2 Elemental Magic. Way to be a Gladiator....

Again, this game needs some serious definition, and having too many options to mess with what skills/abilities/stats/traits a character has doesn't make the game better. It's what is causing most of these problems in the first place. In almost every other Final Fantasy game, each character had a role, (XII had the Licence Board system. So that would be the one where the player got to choose). Why would anyone think of a Final Fantasy game, and want to play every single job at the same time? Why would they not want their role to be clearly defined? I don't get it!

Physical Level and Job Rank are just silly, to be perfectly honest. Physical level means absolutely nothing, other than having more HP/MP. I don't even really understand why they came up with this idea. What was wrong in saying "I have these jobs at this level?" We still do, but we try to combine them into one class.

To fix most of the problems, it would be fairly simple. (Maybe not as far as coding goes, because it would completely change the way the game worked). Just make classes have their own unique set of skills and stats. Make a few that can be transfered. Or maybe do something similar to FFXI, where you can only have an ability of another class, so long as it is below half the level of your equipped class. That way the higher level abilities would make the job feel more unique, so we don't have just a bunch of Gladiators using Cure 3, Tier 2 Elemental Magic, and every ability under the sun, while being a Gladiator.

Moderation and definition. <Yes please.>
#19 Mar 22 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Heartflame wrote:

Moderation and definition. <Yes please.>

Or you could just go back to XI, since all you are asking is this game to be made exactly like it.



Edit:
Really, I know the game is flawed right now, but there are much better ways to tweak the game than making it XI-2.

Quote:
I see a rank 1 Gladiator casting Tier 2 Elemental Magic. Way to be a Gladiator....


"Live and let <whatever they want>". It's not like he is casting it on you is it? I'll never get people who go thru life getting ****** for stuff that doesn't affect them...

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 6:39pm by Ilean
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#20 Mar 22 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Sure, I understand. It's the players that leave their VIT at 20 in Rank 35+ parties that boogle my mind.

You can tell as soon as they join with ~600 HP that they are doomed.


It's typical Taru BLM mentality from FFXI, or the "glass cannon" if you will. Sad thing is, if somehow lowering your Max HP even further could make you nuke even harder, I'm sure people would do it. :P

That's not entirely fair for two reasons:

First: If you didn't have decent +macc and +matk gear in XI, you weren't going to end-game events on blm. Period. At least, on Ifrit. And the blm gear of choice didn't exactly have +hp on it, either.

Second: The whole "Glass Cannon" archetype is a valid gaming experience.....but SE fubared it in XI. They never managed to balance magical damage vs physical damage, which would be why blm parsed so far below every physical damage dealer in the game. And if that wasn't bad enough, a well-geared pup with the appropriate parts could out-nuke a blm. And not by a little. And by blm I mean a blm equipped with morrigans, etc.

(Disclaimer: That was all based on cap-75 XI. As I retired when the cap raised, I can't talk about what happened afterwards, except quoting heresay)

Heartflame wrote:
It's very frustrating. Most players like to min/max their stats, so they can boast being efficient at their chosen role. But because the game is a shapeless blob that lacks anything resembling definition, we have people running around with stats in everything because they can't reassign enough points into something.

Nobody min/maxes to be merely efficient. They min/max to be the best at their chosen profession. And as far as the stats being as meaningful as a shapeless blob, I would have to agree, but I don't think that introducing a restrictive class-based system onry is the way to go. But I touched on that in a previous post in this thread.
Heartflame wrote:
Physical Level and Job Rank are just silly, to be perfectly honest. Physical level means absolutely nothing, other than having more HP/MP. I don't even really understand why they came up with this idea.

You are confusing two different problems, imho. The fact that the stats we can assign to our characters based on physical don't mean squat, and the fact that the jobs aren't as well-defined as they could(should) be are seperate issues in my mind.

To reiterate:
Sometard wrote:
If the class system they introduce comes with a major tweaking of the importance of the stats we assign, and with a boost to certain stats based on the class we've just switched to....win/win?


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#21 Mar 22 2011 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Or you could just go back to XI, since all you are asking is this game to be made exactly like it.


So very constructive. Bravo. Truly, you are a master at expressing thought. Your pragmatic wisdom and excellence will echo through the ages as the most articulate utterance of thought to ever be written.



Point being, we have no class definition, or any reason to choose one class over another.

I used to say that I want the game to be different, as I have experienced most of what I feel Vana'diel can give me. But the more I think about it, the more I understand why the game mechanics were set up the way they were.

The reason FFXI works so much better than FFXIV is because it is an online Final Fantasy game. Meaning that it uses UI, classes, and basic battle mechanics to turn an online experience into something worthy of the Final Fantasy franchise name. FFXIV, however, has very little of this quality. This is a bad thing. If the target audience is for people who enjoyed other Final Fantasy games, then they should know we expect certain features of a Final Fantasy game. Unique, and well defined classes that are different from other jobs is a particularly strong case. It is sorely lacking here.

Final Fantasy games have always been about each character adding something to a party. This is true for all, save 12 and maybe even 13. But the more I read, I get a feeling that the general consensus is that Final Fantasy games have started to drop off since FFX.

From the way the game was advertised, they wanted FFXIV to solve all of the problems that FFXI had. The biggest one seemed to be that most people didn't have the time it took to get things done. So they wanted to make the game more casual. They wanted every job to be able to solo effectively, so that any player could reach end game at their own pace. This sounds much better than a system in which we had to find five other like-minded people. Unfortunately, this wasn't executed well. Instead of making each job viable to solo with, they just made it so everyone can take the utility of each job. They disguised this as "customization" and "uniqueness." But the truth is that these features make the game less fun. There is very little difference between classes, if any. It only really gets different if we compare DoW and DoM as sets. But even then, the casters in this game are stuck using a system that was designed for melee combatants.

Anyone one who has played a caster in FFXI will understand what I mean.

So to clarify, for others who are ever so brilliant and articulate, the reason people are wanting features that were found in FFXI is because they were features of the entire Final Fantasy series. With so many people complaining about the UI, and the lack of class uniqueness, and all the other problems that this game has... most of them seem to stem from SE's goal of trying to make FFXIV as different as possible. Sometimes innovation is a good thing. But the wheel is round for a reason, and I think if they had examined why certain characteristics were in place, then the game would have been better polished. Certain things that sound like a good idea often aren't. (Fatigue?) So instead of saying "well, if FFXI had it, then we don't want it." I think we should ask, "What was the purpose of this mechanic? Why was it needed? How did it function? What were the results? Can we improve upon it?"

Or, as our articulate friend has said, "If you don't like it, then get out."

Conclusion:
Do I want FFXIV different from other MMOs? Yes!
Do I want Final Fantasy XIV to be an online Final Fantasy game? Even more yes!
#22 Mar 22 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Heartflame wrote:
Again, this game needs some serious definition, and having too many options to mess with what skills/abilities/stats/traits a character has doesn't make the game better. It's what is causing most of these problems in the first place. In almost every other Final Fantasy game, each character had a role, (XII had the Licence Board system. So that would be the one where the player got to choose). Why would anyone think of a Final Fantasy game, and want to play every single job at the same time? Why would they not want their role to be clearly defined? I don't get


I played V, with a party of four Samurai Gil Tossing. Went broke pretty fast.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 10:49pm by Khornette
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#23 Mar 22 2011 at 9:19 PM Rating: Default
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Khornette wrote:
Heartflame wrote:
Again, this game needs some serious definition, and having too many options to mess with what skills/abilities/stats/traits a character has doesn't make the game better. It's what is causing most of these problems in the first place. In almost every other Final Fantasy game, each character had a role, (XII had the Licence Board system. So that would be the one where the player got to choose). Why would anyone think of a Final Fantasy game, and want to play every single job at the same time? Why would they not want their role to be clearly defined? I don't get


I played V, with a party of four Samurai Gil Tossing. Went broke pretty fast.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 10:49pm by Khornette


I enjoyed that game. That Samurai gil toss is the best attack against Exdeath.

It's weird though... So you toss money to someone and they get a 9999 damage?



EDIT: I AM SO POPULAR!

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 11:20pm by ViKtoricus
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#24 Mar 22 2011 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Heartflame wrote:


It's very frustrating. Most players like to min/max their stats, so they can boast being efficient at their chosen role. But because the game is a shapeless blob that lacks anything resembling definition, we have people running around with stats in everything because they can't reassign enough points into something.
Again, this game needs some serious definition<Yes please.>...



I agree with you. Just thought of something kind of odd.
I'm not trying to argue my point at all, just thought of an interesting way to look at things regarding stats alone.

One way to look at stats: We say the stats lack giving us definition because we can change them. I just thought about this and find it ironic, because just about every player wants to min/max stats for efficiency, these same players have in fact chosen a clear defined role via the min/maxing. Thinking in terms of this denies us saying the stats lack giving our characters definition.

I have chosen to clearly define my stats to be a Gladiator. And I don't have a problem sacrificing the others.

This only applies to the stats. I also agree the abilities are a train wreck.
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#25 Mar 22 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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#26 Mar 22 2011 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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BadJoRed wrote:
One way to look at stats: We say the stats lack giving us definition because we can change them.

Again, disagree. I think the major reason the players of XIV think the stats lack definition is because of the lack of impact those stats have on the skills/spells we use. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the skills would seem to be like the area maps. Cut/paste.

When boiled down, given the comparative threads I've read, the only real stats that matter are mnd and vit. For obvious reasons. And those were nerfed early on for the same reasons.

...meanwhile...

ViKtoricus wrote:
EDIT: I AM SO POPULAR!

I was wondering how long it would take.
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#27 Mar 22 2011 at 11:14 PM Rating: Good
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^ Also true, I don't dispute that.
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#28 Mar 22 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Interesting point, JoeRed.

It is true that everyone wants to min/max. It's just the nature of the beast. But without there being any reason to use stats at all... (they have very little impact on how the classes are played anyway). I've just been putting them into what I hope will eventually help. They don't have a large impact, but they still count for something. Even if it were just a small chance that it would help....

But at least with min/maxing in this way, people are choosing more defined roles. As is, stats don't mean a thing, so a Gladiator can cast elemental magic with about the same efficiency as a Conjurer. It is a little lower, but still... Tank being able to heal himself to full and nuke? Why didn't I just play Conjurer with a sword and shield?
#29 Mar 23 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
Heartflame wrote:
It is true that everyone wants to min/max.


No so. I will admit I like to see BIG NUMBERS woohoo!

But years of playing RPGs have taught me the importance of a well rounded character.

The relevant Lodestone page is here:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=92e2a2ee13f174b5a6f5f658135e1bf4ab725f29

Quote:
The effects for each available stat are listed below:

Strength (STR)
Increases damage dealt by physical attacks
Increases damage prevented when blocking attacks with a shield

Vitality (VIT)
Reduces damage taken from physical attacks
Increases maximum HP

Dexterity (DEX)
Increases accuracy of physical attacks
Increases chances of evading physical attacks
Increases critical hit rate of physical attacks and resulting damage
Increases parry rate for certain weapons

Intelligence (INT)
Increases damage dealt by magic attacks

Mind (MND)
Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
Increases maximum MP

Piety (PIE)
Reduces chances of your magic attacks being resisted
Increases your chance of resisting magic attacks of others

Elements
Increases damage dealt by attacks of that element
Reduces damage taken from attacks of the opposing element


When you are dead your DPS drops off sharply.

So any class needs:
VIT - Reduces damage taken from physical attacks
MND - Reduces damage taken from magic attacks
PIE - Increases your chance of resisting magic attacks of others

You get to endgame and the Uberest of all Mages dies after getting off his 1st super-nuke for 1500+. The other handful of mages fight in the entire battle and don't require a WHM to raise them. They land x5 Nukes for ~800 damage = 4000. (Insert your own conclusion here.)

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.













#30 Mar 23 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Ilean wrote:
Heartflame wrote:

Moderation and definition. <Yes please.>

Or you could just go back to XI, since all you are asking is this game to be made exactly like it.



Edit:
Really, I know the game is flawed right now, but there are much better ways to tweak the game than making it XI-2.


They don't have to make it XI-2, but they can borrow from it and even recreate certain things.

Didn't stop WoW from doing it in 2004 and it sure as **** didn't stop Rift from doing it in 2011.
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#31 Mar 23 2011 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:

They don't have to make it XI-2, but they can borrow from it and even recreate certain things.

Didn't stop WoW from doing it in 2004 and it sure as **** didn't stop Rift from doing it in 2011.

I understand what you are saying but I think that the abilities system is one area where XI got it wrong, perhaps not in concept but the implementation was horribly flawed. I really don't think XI is where SE should draw inspiration from for an ability system revamp, there are many MMORPGs who got it better by now.

And no I am not gonna name them lol
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#32 Mar 25 2011 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ilean wrote:
Mistress Theonehio wrote:

They don't have to make it XI-2, but they can borrow from it and even recreate certain things.

Didn't stop WoW from doing it in 2004 and it sure as **** didn't stop Rift from doing it in 2011.

I understand what you are saying but I think that the abilities system is one area where XI got it wrong, perhaps not in concept but the implementation was horribly flawed. I really don't think XI is where SE should draw inspiration from for an ability system revamp, there are many MMORPGs who got it better by now.

And no I am not gonna name them lol


I agree that some of the ability system in XI was a little shaky. For example, the lack of job abilities that Melee classes had. They were admittedly fairly bland. SE used weapon skills to try and supplement this, but I think that simply reexamining the ridiculously long list of Final Fantasy abilities, they could easily form a better way to handle them. But in FFXIV, we use weapon skills like they're nothing, and the battle regimen system is not nearly as fluid as the Skill Chain system. There was something to the communication skills, and even random chance of getting extra damage from Skill Chains that made them more flexible and fun. Though I do like some of the ideas SE had. Particularly flipping giant toads. Lots of fun, but Battle Regimens are still too clunky to be used the way I think people want to use them. It puts the battle on pause, and that's enough to get someone killed.

But as far as each class having a specific set of abilities that they always had access to, I liked that. It's not to say that we can't mix and match some things here or there. But what we have now is so flexible that there is no shape. It doesn't mean specializing into anything. It's too flexible. And before anyone whines that I can't deal with innovation, I like diversity. But this system doesn't encourage diversity. It encourages that we level every class and mash together the most beneficial abilities. What makes RPGs interesting is the idea that each party member brings something unique to the group.

Imagine a static party meeting together to level as a party normally would. Tank, healer, and some damage classes, (also known as well defined roles). Then imagine that after they get so far, they all decide to level alt/sub jobs to supplement their character, (at this point, it's still pretty neat). They are still fairly different. But if this process continues long enough, they will eventually get to the point where they all have the same set of abilities to choose from. There will be nothing unique or interesting about them, simply because they can all perform the same move-set that the others can. Without making necessary limits, we lose what makes a group fun to play with in the first place.

That being said, the ability system we have now needs to change. I don't mind mixing up abilities. But the extent we have been given makes it so we don't even have to think about it. Eventually we'll all be able to tank/heal/nuke/debuff/buff at the same time. It kind of sucks the fun out of the game.

As far as what I can say about FFXI's system, I liked the definition, and the fact that some abilities could be cross-classed, and others couldn't. It allowed for the main job to retain it's function, and the sub job just added a small twist into the method of how the role was performed.

What I didn't like was purchasing spells for my magic classes. I felt a little cheated that every warrior just instinctively knew Berserk, but a White Mage doesn't know how to cast Cure 3? On top of that, NPCs didn't sell every spell you needed to know. There were some particular spells that only dropped out of BCNMs, and you had to do them before you could get into another leveling party, (unless you don't mind being gimped. Healers can sometimes get by with that, but I hate being gimp. Particularly in a group that wants me to be efficient).

Job traits were neat, but not nearly as beneficial as they could have been.


But if you're talking about the Battle Menu, I think it's loads better than the Action Point system. Action Points are basically the system they used for Blue Mages in FFXI. I happen to recall a few LS mates leveling Blue Mage, and they would constantly grumble about how they needed to stop and reset their spells. (Obviously they would be severely over-powered if they could cast every spell that they knew. But Blue Mage was the only mage that had that issue). I was surprised, (and very disappointed) when I saw that was the system they made for XIV. I could understand if they made it that way for using skills from other jobs. But the fact that I have to choose what abilities I know from my main job... I still don't get it, or like it. If I'm a Conjurer, shouldn't I be able to cast every elemental spell I know? Black mages can.

Granted, the battle system is broken still. It would be over powered if a conjurer could equip every spell, because they are almost-instant cast. So they would just go down the line and the mob would be dead in a matter of seconds. Maybe if we added an actual cast time to spells, and made mages need to actually sit and cast it, instead of just running around like chanting an arcane ritual was as challenging as chewing bubble gum....

At least with FFXI's battle menus, (which were also good on both PC and PS2), we could set up macros for the abilities we wanted to use often, like Cure or Provoke, or even weapon skills. If there was a spell we needed to use but didn't macro it, such as Warp or Raise, (if you have to macro Raise, then something isn't right), the menu wasn't too difficult or cumbersome to use. On top of that, it also added a little touch of Final Fantasy nostalgia to the game. The hot-bar system we have now is annoying to say the least. Rearranging my spell/ability set every time I change class is annoying. It would be like going from a Black Mage to being a Warrior and wondering why I had to take off Aero so I could equip Provoke. I'm a Warrior. Shouldn't I know how to use Provoke?

The sad thing is that most of these problems are all connected together. It's impossible to separate some of these problems, because of how finely woven together they are.

All in all, I agree that FFXI had some flaws in the abilities department. But it was still better than all this button mashing mess we have. For a game that wanted to be so different, why did they decide to go with a hot-bar?

Oh well. Servers are back up, and soon we will hear what is to be done about all this. Lets hope for the best.
#33 Mar 25 2011 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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Heartflame wrote:
I agree that some of the ability system in XI was a little shaky. For example, the lack of job abilities that Melee classes had. They were admittedly fairly bland. SE used weapon skills to try and supplement this, but I think that simply reexamining the ridiculously long list of Final Fantasy abilities, they could easily form a better way to handle them. But in FFXIV, we use weapon skills like they're nothing, and the battle regimen system is not nearly as fluid as the Skill Chain system. There was something to the communication skills, and even random chance of getting extra damage from Skill Chains that made them more flexible and fun. Though I do like some of the ideas SE had. Particularly flipping giant toads. Lots of fun, but Battle Regimens are still too clunky to be used the way I think people want to use them. It puts the battle on pause, and that's enough to get someone killed.

I could argue, but won't since I agree with most everything you said. Again, it's one of those "Let's hope the Dev team gets us out of this quandary somehow" scenarios.
Heartflame wrote:
Oh well. Servers are back up, and soon we will hear what is to be done about all this. Lets hope for the best.

Agreed. Game on. But I have to wonder, given the circumstances, how many people will flock to the XIV standard, or choose to return to XI's banner. And what message will that send?
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#34 Mar 25 2011 at 1:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Agreed. Game on. But I have to wonder, given the circumstances, how many people will flock to the XIV standard, or choose to return to XI's banner. And what message will that send?


I imagine it would send the same message they got at launch when people stopped playing FFXIV, and either went back to their previous MMOs or waited for new ones to be released.

Either the devs will figure it out, or they won't. All we can do is hope for the best, and enjoy the (semi)free game-time we get. I can at least stick around until they ask for subscriptions. But the game had better be much, much better before they even think about announcing a date for that.

Till then, all we can do is play, and try to send SE some helpful nudges, hoping they might actually listen to their player base for once.
#35 Mar 25 2011 at 5:30 AM Rating: Good
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What about just allocating stats per job instead of per character?
Each job could still have their designated starting stats, but you could control where to put things. Almost as if each job had its own physical level.

That way, we could still have control over playing how we want to play for each job, but we wouldn't be stuck when we switched.

For instance, if I wanted to, I could first level up Archer and pump everything into gaining magic defense, accuracy, and strength...
But then if I decided to switch to a nuker, I could start from scratch and do an INT build.

The downside is that it sort of takes away from the realism... but its hard to really draw a line on that for a game.
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#36 Mar 25 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Autumnfire wrote:

The downside is that it sort of takes away from the realism... but its hard to really draw a line on that for a game.

Yup, I think gameplay should be king. Realism should never take precedence.
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