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some one help me with the element wheelFollow

#1 Mar 21 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
Usually this is pretty simple but im so lost (i think it was the fact that cure doesnt hurt the undead that threw me waaay off o.o) but yea if u are 100% sure please help with bases strength and weakness

Fire- weak against ____ strong against ___
water- weak against ____ strong against ___
Ice- weak against ____ strong against ___
Earth- weak against ____ strong against ___
Lightning- weak against ____ strong against ___
Wind- weak against ____ strong against ___

(weak not being its weakness but what its basically useless against, i would guess water is weak against a water element base but like i said im not sure)

Thank you! ^w^
#2 Mar 21 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Elemental Wheel:
Fire melts ice, but is extinguished by wind.
Water erodes earth, but is boiled by lightning.
Lightning boils water, but is grounded by earth.
Wind extinguishes fire, but is obstructed by ice.
Earth grounds lightning, but is eroded by water.
Ice obstructs wind, but is melted by fire.


Resized


Screenshot
(Click for Full Size Image)

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 11:21pm by SmashingtonWho
#3 Mar 21 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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#4 Mar 21 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/Smiley7890/Element-Wheel-1.jpg

I made this one, It serves me better than the other ones. Your call.
#5 Mar 21 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7aOGPodCoBU/TIn3I3Jka8I/AAAAAAAAANs/8mk0fXB9YBo/s400/Final-Fantasy-XIVelements%20order.jpg

I don't know where I found this one, though. Its just a simple version of Smashington's.

And DoctorMog, its more than just 2 triangles. There is a circular relationship between the elements too. If you consider cluster breaking:

Earth Cluster + Earth Morraine = Earth Crystals
Earth Cluster + Astral Morraine = Ice Crystals (which is the next element clockwise round the circle)
Earth Cluster + Umbral Morraine = Fire Crystals (which is the next element anti-clockwise round the circle)

I am not sure if that has any ties to the Umbral/Astral THM magics, but the elements belong in a circle as well as the 2 triangles of supremacy


Edited, Apr 15th 2011 1:17am by Magnesium02
#6 Mar 21 2011 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I will make things simple.

Fire- weak against __Wind__ strong against _Ice__
water- weak against __Lightning__ strong against _Earth__
Ice- weak against __Fire__ strong against _Wind__
Earth- weak against __Water__ strong against _Lightning__
Lightning- weak against __Earth__ strong against _Water__
Wind- weak against __Ice__ strong against _Fire__

Fire melts ice; Ice blocks wind; Wind extinguishes fire.
Lightning shocks water; Water erodes earth; Earth grounds lightning.

There is also a complex relationship with your holy/dark magic. Although some people say each element has both astral and umberal characteristics, basically follow:

Holy magic = Fire + Wind + Lightning (non-tangible elements)
Dark magic = Earth + Water + Ice (tangible elements)
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#7 Mar 21 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Default
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I disagree with some comments above that the elements and their corresponding weaknesses are depicted by 2 triangular sets. I feel that it should be depicted by a circular relationship instead.

My version and explanation:

Fire is weak to Water (Fire is extinguished by Water)
Water is weak to Lightning (Water is "shocked" by Lightning)
Lightning is weak to Earth (Lightning is "earthed" by Earth)
Earth is weak to Wind (Earth gets blown away by Wind)
Wind is weak to Ice (Wind cannot pass through solid blocks of Ice)
Ice is weak to Fire (Ice is melted by Fire)

Fire < Water < Lightning < Earth < Wind < Ice < Fire

This forms a circular elemental cycle where each elements opposes one element and complements two other elements.

I was searching for a chart but could only find this

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Element

Note that my idea was not taken from that source but I found it coincidental that it matches what I am trying to illustrate.

Using the chart above, we can interpret it this way (using Lightning for example):

Lightning is weak to Earth and strong against Water. It is neutral to Ice and complements Fire and Wind. (When Lightning strikes, Fire may be born. Likewise, strong wind causes friction and static energy which in turn leads to Lightning discharge.)

Edited, Mar 22nd 2011 1:11am by lvh
#8 Mar 22 2011 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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WolfOak wrote:
Holy magic = Fire + Wind + Lightning (non-tangible elements)
Dark magic = Earth + Water + Ice (tangible elements)


lvh wrote:
Fire < Water < Lightning < Earth < Wind < Ice < Fire


You two are pulling that straight from FFXI but it doesn't apply to FFXIV at all.

The chart that Smashing has up in this thread is the most accurate (and in-game) description of the elemental relationships.

Astral and Umbral are not elements but are described as polarizing energy which exists in all elements much like Magnetic North and Magnetic South can co-exist in a single piece of iron. You can confirm this with the Eorzean Calendar you used to choose your character's birthday. Each month combines one of the six elements and either Astral or Umbral polarity for a total of 12 months.

Now, that said, Astral or Umbral energy might have some sort of special relationship of some kind with the two elemental "triangles."

Fire, Ice, and Wind form the "Three Submissions"
Earth, Water, and Lightning form the "Three Conquests"

In Asian culture, there's the concept of Yin and Yang (Light and Dark). Dark is associated with submissiveness while Light is associated with conquest. It may imply some special affinity with Astral and Umbral energy somehow though it's not clear in what way, or if it has any effect on the game.
#9 Mar 22 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Decent
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lvh wrote:
I disagree with some comments above that the elements and their corresponding weaknesses are depicted by 2 triangular sets. I feel that it should be depicted by a circular relationship instead.

My version and explanation:

Fire is weak to Water (Fire is extinguished by Water)
Water is weak to Lightning (Water is "shocked" by Lightning)
Lightning is weak to Earth (Lightning is "earthed" by Earth)
Earth is weak to Wind (Earth gets blown away by Wind)
Wind is weak to Ice (Wind cannot pass through solid blocks of Ice)
Ice is weak to Fire (Ice is melted by Fire)

Fire < Water < Lightning < Earth < Wind < Ice < Fire

This forms a circular elemental cycle where each elements opposes one element and complements two other elements.

I was searching for a chart but could only find this

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Element

Note that my idea was not taken from that source but I found it coincidental that it matches what I am trying to illustrate.

Using the chart above, we can interpret it this way (using Lightning for example):

Lightning is weak to Earth and strong against Water. It is neutral to Ice and complements Fire and Wind. (When Lightning strikes, Fire may be born. Likewise, strong wind causes friction and static energy which in turn leads to Lightning discharge.)


Wrong game.
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#10 Mar 23 2011 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
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WolfOak wrote:
I will make things simple.

Fire- weak against __Wind__ strong against _Ice__
water- weak against __Lightning__ strong against _Earth__
Ice- weak against __Fire__ strong against _Wind__
Earth- weak against __Water__ strong against _Lightning__
Lightning- weak against __Earth__ strong against _Water__
Wind- weak against __Ice__ strong against _Fire__

Fire melts ice; Ice blocks wind; Wind extinguishes fire.
Lightning shocks water; Water erodes earth; Earth grounds lightning.

There is also a complex relationship with your holy/dark magic. Although some people say each element has both astral and umberal characteristics, basically follow:

Holy magic = Fire + Wind + Lightning (non-tangible elements)
Dark magic = Earth + Water + Ice (tangible elements)


The top six elements and weaknesses are defined in game in the adventurer's book. The diven and dark are based from spells such as sleep.
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#11 Mar 23 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Whoever dreamed up this new elemental wheel was on some fine-@$$ drugs.
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#12 Mar 24 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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just a wild guess, could magic atk and def be based off of strengths and origin rather than strengths and weaknesses? cos the triangular cycles are aggressive in nature, as in, what beats what, while the circular cycle explains the origin of each.

so, for example, if you want to do more dmg to something that is fire-based, you use wind cos it extinguishes it, while if you want to increase your def against fire, you would use lightning cos it creates it.

this also somewhat ties with the yin-yang analogy, and how SE stated that to up magic def against a certain element, you up the attribute of the corresponding element, in which case would be from the opposite polarity. so for instance, wind's (umbral) corresponding element would be water (astral). then you get the intertwining effect between "yin-yang"". also if you notice the circular cycle, astral and umbral elements alternate, resembling:

"the concept of yin yang is used to describe how polar or seemingly contrary forces are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, and how they give rise to each other in turn. Opposites thus only exist in relation to each other" [from wikipedia]



Edited, Mar 24th 2011 10:26am by hiyohiyo
#13 Mar 24 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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hiyohiyo wrote:
so, for example, if you want to do more dmg to something that is fire-based, you use wind cos it extinguishes it, while if you want to increase your def against fire, you would use lightning cos it creates it.


You'd probably have to ask a real "for serious" conjurer to be sure, but from what little I've seen, I don't believe using using wind causes more damage against a fire-based creature. It least, not normal damage. It may do things like improve accuracy or increase the number of critical hits (I don't know), but ordinary damage stays the same as any other element but fire.

If you were to cast a fire-based spell against a fire-based creature, however, your spell damage would be reduced. So if you want to protect yourself against fire damage, you'd put element points in fire, not lightning.

Edited, Mar 24th 2011 11:20am by ForceOfMeh
#14 Mar 24 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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From what I've observed, elemental affinities do not change the damage directly. What you will notice is that attacking an wind based enemy with Fire will result in much higher partail and full resists. I suspect a higher critical hit chance when attacking a fire based enemy with Wind, but regular and critical damage stays the same (based off of your element stat points.) I am not 100% sure of all this - but correct me if I'm wrong.

I also somewhat buy into the yin-yang thing. A wind enemy for example might be 70% weak to Ice and 30% weak to Earth. If this was true, then perhaps the complex astra/umberal affinities work via direct/indirect weaknesses. This kind of system might explain why there are so many varying opinions of the astral/umberal rules.



Edited, Mar 25th 2011 4:58pm by WolfOak
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#15 Mar 24 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Nice chart Dr. Mog, I have a bookmark to something similar.

It's easiest to think about it as two (2) separate triangles / circles / elemental wheels.

For any and every practical purposes in game that I can possibly imagine, you just need to be able to look at element X and determine what it's strong against / weak against. That's three (3) elements you need to consider in any analysis, and Dr. Mogs chart does exactly that.
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