Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Take ideas from FFXII!Follow

#1 Mar 25 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
*
182 posts
Ok I posted this on the official forums and I was wondering what you guys thought about it? Here's the link if you want to make comments on the official site too.

Quote:
Yes, I know have posted this before, but since we have these sub-forums I thought this topic would be better off in here.

I think 12's battle system would work perfectly for 14, it's basically an auto-attack system combined with the Active Battle System from the original FF series. Auto-attack is what most people want and it isn't as slow as 11's auto-attack system, which I like, so adding it would a big boost the battle system. Also with the inclusion of target lines and the target circle around the enemy, party leaders can show which enemy they're attacking without using the battle icons. With this addition, the battle system is less complicated and need to go through a bunch of menus is lessened. Of course, there should be an option to toggle this off and on.

In 12 there were battle chains which increase loot drops, but in 14 this could be used for EXP/SP instead. For example for every 10 chains, your EXP/SP rate increases 2 percentage points and this chain would only go up to 100. The EXP/SP chain would grinding more bearable for most people, also people would see this as getting rewarded for playing the game. Also since we're getting instanced dungeons, traps can be added. Traps in 12 added surprise and made gameplay more challenging. These traps could pave the way for more skills to be added in 14, like skills to detect traps or allow for more challenging dungeons for hardcore players to be created.

The Zodiac Job System should be implemented in some form, this system worked in designating specific roles for the characters. For those who don't know what Zodiac Job System is, read about it here. Obviously would we have the choice to switch between jobs unlike the Zodiac Job System, but I think having a system where people can gather points to learn to do something then go to a shop to buy a magic spell or weapon is more challenging and rewarding to players.

To me the music of 12 had a grand MMO feel. I like Uematsu-san's music a lot in 14, but I think Hitoshi Sakimoto's style would fit Eoreza better. In any case I should Sakimoto-san should contribute in some way in the future.

In conclusion, there are other things in 12 that could probably work in 14 that I didn't list here, hopefully other forum users can list those. I wanted you (the developers) to look at another game besides FFXI for ideas. I see 12 as an improvement of the 11 system and I think those improvements should be brought to 14.

Thank you for reading.


Edited, Mar 25th 2011 2:16pm by TerraSonicX
____________________________
?
#2 Mar 25 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
351 posts
TerraSonicX wrote:
I think 12's battle system would work perfectly for 14...


12's battle system was meant for a single player game in which you controlled 3 characters at once. While there are parts of it that might work in an MMO, it's not clear how applicable it would be given that 12 is not a networked game where you're interacting with an online world in which you can't pause the action (like 12 frequently does).

Edited, Mar 25th 2011 2:31pm by ForceOfMeh
#3 Mar 25 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
*
176 posts
Honestly, the only thing FFXII was missing was being online. It made me pine for FFXI the whole time I was playing it. I had hoped when they announced Rapture that it would take place in Ivalice so we could choose from Moogle, Viera, Nu-Mou, Bangaa etc. The way that world is setup it would lend itself very well to a MMO. Not to mention extensive lore from Tactics and VS which they could draw from.

Edited, Mar 25th 2011 12:32pm by superdupernuker
____________________________


#4 Mar 25 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
Back in my XI days I always thought they should have based the battle system on the ZJS.

Good to know others appreciate XII as much as I do. IMO the most refined FF game so far.

TerraSonicX wrote:
Ok I posted this on the official forums and I was wondering what you guys thought about it? Here's the link if you want to make comments on the official site too.

Quote:
Yes, I know have posted this before, but since we have these sub-forums I thought this topic would be better off in here.

I think 12's battle system would work perfectly for 14, it's basically an auto-attack system combined with the Active Battle System from the original FF series. Auto-attack is what most people want and it isn't as slow as 11's auto-attack system, which I like, so adding it would a big boost the battle system. Also with the inclusion of target lines and the target circle around the enemy, party leaders can show which enemy they're attacking without using the battle icons. With this addition, the battle system is less complicated and need to go through a bunch of menus is lessened. Of course, there should be an option to toggle this off and on.

In 12 there were battle chains which increase loot drops, but in 14 this could be used for EXP/SP instead. For example for every 10 chains, your EXP/SP rate increases 2 percentage points and this chain would only go up to 100. The EXP/SP chain would grinding more bearable for most people, also people would see this as getting rewarded for playing the game. Also since we're getting instanced dungeons, traps can be added. Traps in 12 added surprise and made gameplay more challenging. These traps could pave the way for more skills to be added in 14, like skills to detect traps or allow for more challenging dungeons for hardcore players to be created.

The Zodiac Job System should be implemented in some form, this system worked in designating specific roles for the characters. For those who don't know what Zodiac Job System is, read about it here. Obviously would we have the choice to switch between jobs unlike the Zodiac Job System, but I think having a system where people can gather points to learn to do something then go to a shop to buy a magic spell or weapon is more challenging and rewarding to players.

To me the music of 12 had a grand MMO feel. I like Uematsu-san's music a lot in 14, but I think Hitoshi Sakimoto's style would fit Eoreza better. In any case I should Sakimoto-san should contribute in some way in the future.

In conclusion, there are other things in 12 that could probably work in 14 that I didn't list here, hopefully other forum users can list those. I wanted you (the developers) to look at another game besides FFXI for ideas. I see 12 as an improvement of the 11 system and I think those improvements should be brought to 14.

Thank you for reading.


Edited, Mar 25th 2011 2:16pm by TerraSonicX

____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#5 Mar 25 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
*
182 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
TerraSonicX wrote:
I think 12's battle system would work perfectly for 14...


12's battle system was meant for a single player game in which you controlled 3 characters at once. While there are parts of it that might work in an MMO, it's not clear how applicable it would be given that 12 is not a networked game where you're interacting with an online world in which you can't pause the action (like 12 frequently does).

Edited, Mar 25th 2011 2:31pm by ForceOfMeh


That's true, I should have made myself more clear. Obviously there wouldn't be any pausing in the version that was placed in XIV and the gambit system wouldn't apply, unless they placed that system in for our companions. Also in XII you could select in between active and wait for the battle system. For the active option, enemies attacked you while you were selecting actions through your menu, which was similar to XI.
____________________________
?
#6 Mar 25 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Yeah, XII really gained a lot of influence from XI. Like someone else stated the battle seemed like an online game.

I know it wasn't a lot of people's favorite, but I liked it enough. I could see it's battle system tweaked and working well in an online game. Conversely, I could see XIII's working in an online game as well.
#7 Mar 25 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
FFXII had one of my favorite battle systems, and automatically going to attack mobs without the need of targeting and switching to active mode manually would be a very nice touch. If they have an auto attack feature, I hope they go down this route.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#8 Mar 25 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
351 posts
To me, the biggest thing that made 12 like an MMO was the fact there was no breakaway combat. You actually fought things real-time just like you would online. But I'm not convinced the mechanics 12 used to be MMO-like would actually translate back to an MMO.

A gambit system, for example, makes sense in 12 to keep controlling 3 characters at once a bit more sane when trying to keep the pace of combat fluid. In 14, it would just be legalized botting. If you think people don't talk to each other now...

12 also doesn't use TP but instead relies on MP completely. The way 12 uses weaponskills just wouldn't work in an interactive online world. Characters can eventually learn every skill and spell and use any of them at any time. This is even more "class-less" than 14 is now, and I believe the trend is to take that in the other direction with more class structure.


Edited, Mar 25th 2011 4:18pm by ForceOfMeh
#9 Mar 25 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#10 Mar 25 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
844 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.

Same here.
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#11 Mar 25 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
I like the idea of removing active time and passive time. You should either be holding or not holding your weapon, and it shouldn't take 2 seconds of standing still to change that.

About FF12 specifically, no, I don't think its better than any other method of open world, auto attacking combat that they could use. Targeting lines would just muddy up the screen, remember this is the crowd who almost rage quit over quest markers and aggro icons. Also I'd argue that unless they were to add gambits to the game, that battle system would run more complex than what we have now.

Edited, Mar 25th 2011 5:15pm by KujaKoF
____________________________


#12 Mar 25 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
568 posts
Lol now I've heard it all. So you'd like to be able to grind in XIV with your left foot like I did in XII?

That is really going for the vegetable award. I don't know which game made me feel more un-necessary at the end of the controller XIII for requiring just watching stuff with endless lives and no risk or control. Or was it XII that manically was a lot of walking around until the game ended. Not to mention XII's battle system was inspired by XI but it didn't have almost any strategy and everything could be automated so that the game played itself.

Well since we're throwing around ideas I want the AoE and focused effect switch like in IX I want AoEs to be selectable for all spells and make AoEs cause less damage per unit and focused non AoEs be more effective. IX's skills to be learned from weapons that made the players care about their gear and motivated sometimes to use non optimal gear for a bit longer would be nice in XIV since the weapon is a pain to take care of. It would be nice if the weapon would give something back like skills so it would feel like worth buying and equipping.

Maybe some character growth system that focuses on selecting your strengths like sphere grid in X?

Summons that can be leveled up via gathering rare materials like Aeons? Totema that can be controlled like in XII (that would have been cool if they were half as useful as summons).

Cutscenes and Fame-system like in XI. (ok now I'm really pushing it)

XII had some really great aspects to it, but generally it's game design streamlines the gameplay out of it in favor of vege-mode.
#13 Mar 25 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
I like the idea of removing active time and passive time. You should either be holding or not holding your weapon, and it shouldn't take 2 seconds of standing still to change that.

This is even more aggravating when you are moving then stop to pull out your weapon/cast a spell. What's the point? :/
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#14 Mar 25 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
*
182 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
To me, the biggest thing that made 12 like an MMO was the fact there was no breakaway combat. You actually fought things real-time just like you would online. But I'm not convinced the mechanics 12 used to be MMO-like would actually translate back to an MMO.

A gambit system, for example, makes sense in 12 to keep controlling 3 characters at once a bit more sane when trying to keep the pace of combat fluid. In 14, it would just be legalized botting. If you think people don't talk to each other now...

12 also doesn't use TP but instead relies on MP completely. The way 12 uses weaponskills just wouldn't work in an interactive online world. Characters can eventually learn every skill and spell and use any of them at any time. This is even more "class-less" than 14 is now, and I believe the trend is to take that in the other direction with more class structure.


Edited, Mar 25th 2011 4:18pm by ForceOfMeh


Wow, didn't you read anything I wrote? The system in 14 wouldn't use the gambit system, if anything it would be probably used for our NPC companion. In the actual Zodiac Job System when you selected a job for your character, you couldn't change it, so you couldn't learn every skill, spell, or use every weapon. Obviously this would have to be modified for 14 since people would want to change jobs. Just because they may take things from 12 doesn't mean other things that have been in 11 or 14 have to go. Maybe certain skills would use TP instead of MP.
____________________________
?
#15 Mar 25 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.
I'd agree with this, I absolutely loved 12, best so far. So underrated, and I can never understand the logic behind why so many people hate it so much.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#16 Mar 25 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
626 posts
i dont think he meant every detail of the battle system, i think its common sense that the neon lines wouldnt be there if it were online, i mean the game itself gives you the option to turn them off which i did.
the gambit system would work fantastic if we had our "fellow" NPCs like in FFXI.
id even accept the summon system from 12 (but again not to detail, definitely need to be tweeked) if it meant i could have one in 14.
but i too loved FFXII's battle system, Viera would be welcomed in 14 XD
____________________________

#17 Mar 25 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
FFXII is seriously underrated as some already stated, the battle system is leaps and bounds better than FFXIV IMO.

Now what they can sure add, is the missions :) That i would love to see, god i spend so much time doing every single mark and sidequest XD!
____________________________
MUTED
#18 Mar 25 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
*
144 posts
I think even the music from FFXII is ripped directly from FFXI

I beat it like 10 minutes before server reset xD
____________________________
Sir Littlej wrote:
i think i said goodbye, but i might have told him to go die, im not sure


Tera Kalinathon wrote:
i do like... wood o.o



#19 Mar 25 2011 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
bsphil wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.
I'd agree with this, I absolutely loved 12, best so far. So underrated, and I can never understand the logic behind why so many people hate it so much.


Agreed 100%

If FF15 has 12's gameplay with 13's graphics -- best RPG evar.
#20 Mar 25 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
**
401 posts
bsphil wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.
I'd agree with this, I absolutely loved 12, best so far. So underrated, and I can never understand the logic behind why so many people hate it so much.


Absolutely agreed. I think the biggest flak 12 catches is its battle system. People either hate it or love it. I personally loved it, along with the game which was extremely good. Personally I would have to rate 6 > 9 > 12 as my faves, but its all by small margins.

@OP: I think its an interesting idea that could possibly work. Btw i'm really jealous of the Zodiac board the FFXII international release got. My only real complaint with 12 were the identical license boards.



Edited, Mar 25th 2011 10:08pm by Ipwnrice
____________________________
FFXI: Server Ifrit
Licksthekitty - 68THF/41WHM/37NIN/30BLM/20COR Mithra Retired

WoW: Realm Darkspear
Claybosmash - 80 Orc Warrior Retired
Ipwnrice - 70 Undead Rogue Retired


#21 Mar 25 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,120 posts
Ilean wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.

Same here.


Blasphemy...
____________________________

#22 Mar 25 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
676 posts
You know, when they first announced FFXIV, I had recently played FFXII and expected the combat to be very similar when they released their second MMO. Fast-paced combat CAN exist in an RPG, but it has to be delicately crafted to do so. DCUO has an interesting take on combat, and while the system wouldn't mesh well with Final Fantasy's environments, they could learn a little something from its pace.

With so many Final Fantasy games to choose from, each with their unique traits, you'd think they'd have come up with something a lot more impressive than the battle system we ended up with. Good thing Yoshi-P is working on making it a lot easier to use and a lot more enjoyable!
____________________________

FFXI: Siren Server: Seiowan Lvl 99 WHM, SCH, BLM
FFXIV: Ragnarok Server: Lemuria Glitterhands All Classes 50
#23 Mar 26 2011 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
**
952 posts
bsphil wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
for years, 6 was my favorite. 12 dethroned it, and now 12 is my favorite.
I'd agree with this, I absolutely loved 12, best so far. So underrated, and I can never understand the logic behind why so many people hate it so much.


I didn't so much "hate" it but to me the story was lacking. That's not to say it was bad, it just wouldn't be at the top of my list. The battle system was good but not great either.

Now, Final Fantasy XIII I hated. Hated it so much that I never finished it.

As for the topic at hand, sure they could add some things from the battle system if they don't make it exactly like they did in XII, I would totally be for that. The targeting lines would be great, maybe some gambits or macros that would go off when certain conditions were met. I don't want it fully automated though, that's one of the things I didn't like about XII's battle system, it sometimes felt like the game was playing itself.
#24 Mar 26 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
351 posts
TerraSonicX wrote:
Wow, didn't you read anything I wrote?


Sure, I read what you wrote.

But I'm exploring what made 12 work in terms of its combat system to see if any of it can be used in an actual MMO. Really, about the only thing you could take from it is auto-attack, and even then, how its auto-attack worked (TP-less, gambit-driven) is not going to be how 14's auto-attack ought to work.

What it comes down to is that saying 14's combat should be like 12's is meaningless because you have to make exceptions to every aspect of 12's combat system. The concepts behind 12's combat system completely unravel when you think of it in terms of an MMO to the point that you're left with nothing.

You may as well say 14's combat should be like Super Mario Bros. except with no jumping or fireballs.
#25 Mar 26 2011 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
Also, Ivalice's world, with its political intrigue, roman tragedy, satanic religions, murder, etc. and still managing to be magic and impredictable... > ALL
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#26 Mar 26 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Didn't like XII at all myself. The battle and character development systems were extremely unappealing (e.g., there were very few abilities that were tactically useful-- the best being the broken Charge, which was essentially a crappy blackjack mechanic), and pretty much every good thing I could say about the game was something that made it feel like an offline MMO copypasta of FFXI, which was already old gameplay by the time XII was released.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Mar 26 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
523 posts
You could always go play FFXI.

Just sayin
#28 Mar 26 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
*
93 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
TerraSonicX wrote:
Wow, didn't you read anything I wrote?


Sure, I read what you wrote.

But I'm exploring what made 12 work in terms of its combat system to see if any of it can be used in an actual MMO. Really, about the only thing you could take from it is auto-attack, and even then, how its auto-attack worked (TP-less, gambit-driven) is not going to be how 14's auto-attack ought to work.

The gambit system was the best part of the combat, imho. Walking around with perpetual haste, protect, shell, etc..? That's really what made that combat system for me.

I didn't have to worry about the little things. Someone was dead, and it was an automatic raise. Etc.

I don't see it transferring. At least, I don't see it transferring as much in XIV as it did in XI. Since those games seem remarkably similar. Which might be due to the fact that both were designed around the same timeframe, much as XIV and XIII were.

Meanwhile...
DoctorMog wrote:
You could always go play FFXI.

Just sayin


Not only is that not helpful, it's been said repeatedly. Twice. By **** near everyone.

Just sayin'.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
As a forum admin, you... see things. Things that you can never unseen.

I can only apologize so many times for that.
#29 Mar 27 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
**
557 posts
It should have NPCs, multiple cities, interesting quests and be fun, like FFXII.
____________________________


#30 Mar 27 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Default
*
68 posts
Interesting idea.

I must admit that I loved FFXII. It had a system that, (once figured out), was very fluid and made for fast-paced game-play.

I think they should definitely not re-do the license board system. It poses the same problem that XIV currently has, being that given enough time, one could aquire every skill or ability. I absolutely hate the Action Point system. Although I know there are some who enjoy it, I have to be frank when I say that I am hoping whoever thought up such a ****** system dies a miserable, painful death. (In-game, of course. I'm not that mean...)

But I think the thought occured to everyone that if they made FFXII playable with friends, say... in a similar way to Diablo 2 or Magicka? (Hosting a game for the player and a small group of friends). That game could have been even more amazing!

I think the only thing I didn't like about XII was the lack of use for making a purely mage-style class. I know it is logical to attack when you have nothing to do. But my first high level job in XI was White Mage. So I'm used to sitting in the back, casting spells from a safe distance, due to my lack of armor / HP. But for some reason, I could never figure out how to stop my healer from running in and smacking things in the face with a staff. (Granted, some of the Pole weapons kicked ***, as they had damage modifiers off of Magic stats, and they could attack multiple times). But it still bugged me that I couldn't make a pure-nuke/healer. But that was just the style of the game. Eventually, it was silly to even make a distinction between the people in the group. Eventually, my group was a bunch of Paladins with nukes and ridiculous buffs. The only difference between them was what weapons they used. And that changed depending on what I was fighting. But once you got Zodiac Spear and the Masamune, did it really matter?


Anyway, I wish they would bring back the menu-based battle system. Every FF game has had it. (Maybe not the off-shoots, like the Crystal Chronicle series, but I'm referring to the main line of games). It's as iconic as Chocobos, Moogles, and Airships.

To be honest, the Hot-Bar system is so over used in MMOs that I'm confused why they would use it. If their goal was to be unique from the market, they should have just stuck with what made Final Fantasy games good in the first place.


But I'd like to thank you, Terra. This is one of the first posts I've read on here that gave a very unique idea that wasn't complete just silly, or otherwise hog-wash. Kudos.
#31 Mar 27 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
844 posts
Heartflame wrote:
Anyway, I wish they would bring back the menu-based battle system. Every FF game has had it.

To be honest, the Hot-Bar system is so over used in MMOs that I'm confused why they would use it. If their goal was to be unique from the market, they should have just stuck with what made Final Fantasy games good in the first place.

Yeah I agree.

Having 10 action slots on screen to have our battle abilities at the touch of a single button and at the same time see how long until we can use them again is retarded!

And man, every MMO has animate beings for races, if SE wanted to be unique they should have let us be rocks, or chairs, or the coolest class, a CLOUD!!! This game is so mainstream!

/sarcasm off


Really, I used to think we just had different opinions, now I simply think you are retarded, on drugs or plain trolling.

____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#32 Mar 27 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
351 posts
Ilean wrote:
And man, every MMO has animate beings for races, if SE wanted to be unique they should have let us be rocks, or chairs, or the coolest class, a CLOUD!!!


I'd play an MMO where you got to be a cloud. Level up and learn abilities like Lightning Bolt, Tornado, and the ultimate technique Hurricane! :D
#33 Mar 27 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Ilean wrote:
And man, every MMO has animate beings for races, if SE wanted to be unique they should have let us be rocks, or chairs, or the coolest class, a CLOUD!!!


I'd play an MMO where you got to be a cloud. Level up and learn abilities like Lightning Bolt, Tornado, and the ultimate technique Hurricane! :D

Too mainstream!!!!!1111111

http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/102010/hipster_cat_of_the_day.jpg

All a cloud would do is be dragged by the wind. Your 2 hours is raining on Sephirot but then you die and have to make another character.

Edited, Mar 27th 2011 5:05pm by Ilean
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#34 Mar 27 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
*
68 posts
Ilean,

Sorry that you feel that way, though it doesn't really bother me. Maybe it just comes from my opinions of FFXI. (And yes, I would probably go back to it if I had the time). Regardless, my point was valid. The Action Point system is pretty clunky and is a major contributer to the problem of bland game-play.

The hot-bar system is a very common UI system for MMOs. They've had these since EQ2. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but I feel that FFXI proved that the menu system, while uncommon (and distinctive of the Final Fantasy franchise), was not a bad system. For spell-casters, (which is what I tend to play, mostly), they have a lot of spells and abilities. Particularly with elemental magic, we might not want to have eight slots assigned to basic nuke spells. We also have utility spells, debuffs, and lord-forbid a heal spell. The menu system was a good compromise. It let us have easy access to every ability we had, without forcing us to choose only 10 or so to have actively. (I realize you get more later on, but who really enjoys having to remember which bar an important spell is on when they're getting wailed on?)

Macros were very easy to make, (even easier now), and would allow players to have a pretty good-sized amount of abilities set up with just a push of a button, (ctrl/alt + 1-0). It wasn't a part of the static UI, and only showed up when you pressed alt or ctrl.

In this way, the common spells one might use were very easily accessible through macros, such as Cure for a White Mage. But for situations that require diversity, it didn't take more than a few seconds to open the ol'e bag-o-tricks and select something to use. This was particularly helpful for Black Mages, as some mobs are weak to certain elements, and it allowed them to be more precise in spell casting.

But then, I just don't enjoy selecting one or two elements to cast, and hope that I don't encounter mobs that aren't particularly phased by either.

Being that SE isn't big on letting players mod their UI, I'd prefer to have a much different set up. The hot-bar/action point system is both very limiting, and infinitely bland.

Just my 2-gil. Think of it what you want.
#35 Mar 27 2011 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
You sound reasonable again, once you stop saying that dropping stuff that works for the sake of being different is the way to go.

Now, I agree that the menu system worked ok for XI when SE designed it for the PS2 and thought that most people would play it with a PS2 controller mainly, but this game is much faster paced and active, I seriously wouldn't want to play it if I had to press 3-4 keys each time I want to use an abilty/spell/ws.

I couldn't agree more though, that limiting us to 10 abilities is stupid, that's why pretty much any modern MMORPG has at least 20 ability slots available.

It was stupid from SE to implement macros as a workaround to only having 10 action slots instead of simply giving us more slots, macros don't show recast timers. Macros were needed back in XI when because of the menu based interface + PS2 controller every ability was several button presses away, it made sense having macros there.

It's not that I don't want macros in the game, I just want the hot bar fixed so that they are a commodity, not a workaround for poor UI design.

Heartflame wrote:
Ilean,

Sorry that you feel that way, though it doesn't really bother me. Maybe it just comes from my opinions of FFXI. (And yes, I would probably go back to it if I had the time). Regardless, my point was valid. The Action Point system is pretty clunky and is a major contributer to the problem of bland game-play.

The hot-bar system is a very common UI system for MMOs. They've had these since EQ2. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but I feel that FFXI proved that the menu system, while uncommon (and distinctive of the Final Fantasy franchise), was not a bad system. For spell-casters, (which is what I tend to play, mostly), they have a lot of spells and abilities. Particularly with elemental magic, we might not want to have eight slots assigned to basic nuke spells. We also have utility spells, debuffs, and lord-forbid a heal spell. The menu system was a good compromise. It let us have easy access to every ability we had, without forcing us to choose only 10 or so to have actively. (I realize you get more later on, but who really enjoys having to remember which bar an important spell is on when they're getting wailed on?)

Macros were very easy to make, (even easier now), and would allow players to have a pretty good-sized amount of abilities set up with just a push of a button, (ctrl/alt + 1-0). It wasn't a part of the static UI, and only showed up when you pressed alt or ctrl.

In this way, the common spells one might use were very easily accessible through macros, such as Cure for a White Mage. But for situations that require diversity, it didn't take more than a few seconds to open the ol'e bag-o-tricks and select something to use. This was particularly helpful for Black Mages, as some mobs are weak to certain elements, and it allowed them to be more precise in spell casting.

But then, I just don't enjoy selecting one or two elements to cast, and hope that I don't encounter mobs that aren't particularly phased by either.

Being that SE isn't big on letting players mod their UI, I'd prefer to have a much different set up. The hot-bar/action point system is both very limiting, and infinitely bland.

Just my 2-gil. Think of it what you want.




Edited, Mar 27th 2011 6:57pm by Ilean
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#36 Mar 27 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
*
68 posts
Quote:
You sound reasonable again


I've never tried to be anything but.

I think the major reason I dislike the hot-bar system is for how limiting it is. We need classes with rich and diverse abilities. Players want to feel like their character is amazing and special, but the current system, both Action Points and UI, limits this possibility.

For example, say we couldn't cross class abilities, (just as a hypothetical). Isn't is silly that a Thaumaturge can't cast all of the spells that they know because they don't have enough ability points? If a Conjurer is a master of Elements, shouldn't they be able to cast every single element? I understand that the Action Point system is meant to limit us so we don't equip entire class sets, (because a Gladiator just needs to be a caster), but I could really go without the entire system.

And I'm glad you brought up the PS2 issue. I meant to touch on that. PS3 launch is what many people seem to think is going to mark the possible revival of FFXIV. I really felt the menu system was a good compromise between platforms. It worked swimmingly on the PS2. Even when I transitioned to PC, it was pretty fluid.

I can understand not liking multiple key-strokes to get one ability. But I felt like the Macro system was a very fair fix to this. Most of the time, we don't need to use every single ability. So it was nice to be able to have quick access to a set of more commonly used ones. But for the ones we didn't use that often, I felt like the menu wasn't that bad.

But to be fair, FFXI was a much more laid-back battle system. Everyone wants quick reflex battle system. That's not bad either. But one of the appeals in the FFXI vs EQ2 style games was it felt more like playing Chess than Checkers. (Dunno if that makes sense to you).

Oh well. We're just going to have to wait and see.

Speaking of which, does anyone know what's with the maintenance tomorrow? I doubt it is what I hope it is, but the announcement was a little ambiguous. I don't want to get my hopes up. But if this was one of those looming over-hauls, (again, unlikely as it's what, two-hour maintenance?), I think I'd crap myself. Even if it was just a little something that made the game more bearable to play...
#37 Mar 27 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I love the ability point system-- it's just horribly, horribly done in FFXIV. In a good ability point system, for starters, cross-class abilities aren't gimped from the get-go. Abilities don't all cost the same amount of points. The amount of points an ability does cost relates to how useful the ability is. The abilities themselves are all reasonably useful. The abilities you select allow you to set up complex combinations and strategies (i.e., there's a lot more to it than just picking the most useful individual abilities).

None of those things can be said about the ability point system in FFXIV.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Mar 27 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
*
68 posts
Quote:
None of those things can be said about the ability point system in FFXIV.


So... were you being sarcastic? I'm sorry. I'm not good at reading sarcasm in text. (Situational intonation tends to be how we distinguish it, and that requires audio transmission).

But from the beginning, I get the feeling that you're saying "I like the idea, not how they did it."

To be honest, the idea of the Action Point system frustrates me. I like the aspect of mixing abilities, but the range at which we can do it is so vague that we lack any sense of definition, or ability to distinguish something that is notable about a particular class.

Quote:
i.e., there's a lot more to it than just picking the most useful individual abilities


I'm guessing this is the sarcastic part, because this is exactly the problem with the system. There is no reason to pick anything but the best abilities available, because there is very little penalty for choosing abilities of other classes. I could effectively max out Conjurer, and turn around and level any DoW class using my high-level Conjurer abilities.


Lack of definition aside: I absolutely hate how long it takes me to reset my **** action bar. For a system that is supposed to be "switching classes on the fly," why do I have to take the time to set up my provoke / defender / whatever obvious melee abilities I'd want to use when I put on a sword. Some of these should be obvious.

Then again, if they added a drag'n'drop system for the Action Point bars, then it would be a **** of a lot faster....

Regardless, I hate the Action Point system any way you want to slice it. It was cool for Blue Mages in FFXI. It is not cool for an entire game.
#39 Mar 27 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Er, try reading it again. I wasn't being sarcastic, but you did misunderstand me.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Mar 28 2011 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
*
93 posts
Kachi wrote:
I love the ability point system-- it's just horribly, horribly done in FFXIV. In a good ability point system, for starters, cross-class abilities aren't gimped from the get-go. Abilities don't all cost the same amount of points. The amount of points an ability does cost relates to how useful the ability is. The abilities themselves are all reasonably useful. The abilities you select allow you to set up complex combinations and strategies (i.e., there's a lot more to it than just picking the most useful individual abilities).

None of those things can be said about the ability point system in FFXIV.

^ QFT. This is the summation of one the major problems confronting the balancing of the current system. At least, in my opinion.
Forgive me Kachi, if I steal your thunder. But this is the current system in a nutshell. FF MMO has always been about diminishing returns to balance freedoms of choice. Not so much so for the single-player FF, but that's a different topic.
Now I will address, with your words, Heartflame's post:
Heartflame wrote:
To be honest, the idea of the Action Point system frustrates me. I like the aspect of mixing abilities, but the range at which we can do it is so vague that we lack any sense of definition, or ability to distinguish something that is notable about a particular class.

I'm guessing this is the sarcastic part, because this is exactly the problem with the system. There is no reason to pick anything but the best abilities available, because there is very little penalty for choosing abilities of other classes. I could effectively max out Conjurer, and turn around and level any DoW class using my high-level Conjurer abilities.

Now, allow me to re-quote Kachi:
Kachi wrote:
I love the ability point system-- it's just horribly, horribly done in FFXIV. In a good ability point system, for starters, cross-class abilities aren't gimped from the get-go. Abilities don't all cost the same amount of points. The amount of points an ability does cost relates to how useful the ability is. The abilities themselves are all reasonably useful.

The simple fact of that matter is, from my perspective, that you are both saying the same thing: That the cost of assigning abilities does not reflect the strength of those abilities. And it rightfully should. Moreover, Kachi states that the abilities themselves should be useful. Which I don't think many in these forums would disagree when I say that they tend to be more along the lines of cut-and-paste, rather than unique.
Heartflame wrote:
Lack of definition aside: I absolutely hate how long it takes me to reset my **** action bar.

Gonna have to agree with this. And your sentiment that the action bar is useless. For the simple reason that anyone who plays specific classes often enough probably have the actions macroed in anyways. Which would be all well and good if we had the freedom of having plenty of macros....say like in XI. But instead we are vastly more limited in macro space. This is a problem.
Ilean wrote:
It was stupid from SE to implement macros as a workaround to only having 10 action slots instead of simply giving us more slots, macros don't show recast timers. Macros were needed back in XI when because of the menu based interface + PS2 controller every ability was several button presses away, it made sense having macros there.

Thus, having the limited macros we have in XIV sucks balls. Moreover, it was why a lot of PC players used windower. Especially the casters. To see recast timers and how long we had left on protect/shell/regen/reraise. It would appear that SE has learned at least one of these lessons (When spells effects are due to turn into pumpkins and vanish) but it would've been better to learn to have learned both with no action bar to begin with. Perhaps a screen where we simply asssigned abilities in the menu, and then progress to a more natural interaction...

...which in my mind would've had the ability to specify macros to call other macros...but again. That's another thread.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
As a forum admin, you... see things. Things that you can never unseen.

I can only apologize so many times for that.
#41 Mar 28 2011 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
844 posts
Well I am late, you 3 all have very valid points so I guess there's mot much for me to add.


The only reason I ever wanted to call a macro from within a macro in XI was for full gear swaps, but windower macros solved that lol...

And...

Last time I checked there was no dev tag for general GUI issues on the official boards, either they already have an awesome GUI cooking or they are sticking us with the crappy current one.


:(
____________________________
See your face upon the clear water. How dirty! Come! Wash your face!
#42 Mar 28 2011 at 12:03 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
FFXII is at the bottom of my favorite FF. I did like Balthier and Fran and gran kiltas. To me it is on the complete opposite spectrum of XIII. XII is open to the point of almost mmo open but not quite. While XIII is so streamlined and focused, you almost have to pinch yourself to acknowledge that your playing a jrpg. Gambits were a very good concept for companions. But the AI and gambit macros were not fleshed out enough or offer enough options. Vaan always gave me the vibe he was either a pedo or ***, **** he looked sort of like a truly white Micheal Jackson. Grinding endgame xp was tedious because the mobs scaled to your level. Theres a few other flaws that I am not going to go into detail on.

XIII on the other hand was beautiful and had very good pacing. If it had a few features included this could have been my 2nd favorite ff next to 6 and 7.

1.Optional Sidequest from early levels to end.
2.At least 1-2 towns.
3.No auto option or at least offer a customizable queue.
4.A sphere grid or crystarium that is non linear.
5.Backtrack! Didn't like I couldn't travel back to existing areas freely for the most part.
6.No true bad guy, and I mean one you love to hate with a passion.
7.The questing of ultimate weapons like FF2,3,7,10, then the current system could have been used for min/maxers +1,+2,+3.
8. No requirement to beat final boss before ultimate gear questing.
9. An online new game plus with DLC similar to how WKC did. But with an FF flavor.
#43 Mar 28 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Good
*
182 posts
sandpark wrote:
FFXII is at the bottom of my favorite FF. I did like Balthier and Fran and gran kiltas. To me it is on the complete opposite spectrum of XIII. XII is open to the point of almost mmo open but not quite. While XIII is so streamlined and focused, you almost have to pinch yourself to acknowledge that your playing a jrpg. Gambits were a very good concept for companions. But the AI and gambit macros were not fleshed out enough or offer enough options. Vaan always gave me the vibe he was either a @#%^ or ***, **** he looked sort of like a truly white Micheal Jackson. Grinding endgame xp was tedious because the mobs scaled to your level. Theres a few other flaws that I am not going to go into detail on.

XIII on the other hand was beautiful and had very good pacing. If it had a few features included this could have been my 2nd favorite ff next to 6 and 7.

1.Optional Sidequest from early levels to end.
2.At least 1-2 towns.
3.No auto option or at least offer a customizable queue.
4.A sphere grid or crystarium that is non linear.
5.Backtrack! Didn't like I couldn't travel back to existing areas freely for the most part.
6.No true bad guy, and I mean one you love to hate with a passion.
7.The questing of ultimate weapons like FF2,3,7,10, then the current system could have been used for min/maxers +1,+2,+3.
8. No requirement to beat final boss before ultimate gear questing.
9. An online new game plus with DLC similar to how WKC did. But with an FF flavor.


Hmmm so you dislike 12 more because of its characters and gambit system, but love 13's graphics and pacing? I know this is your opinion but 12 has way more gameplay than 13 does. 13 may be beautiful and 12's story may be confusing, but at least I wanted to finish 12 whereas with 13 I quit playing when I got to chapter 11.
____________________________
?
#44 Mar 28 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
970 posts
Yea to each their own I guess. I didn't want to finish XII. Too much dragging along at every turn. I did enjoy one playthrough very much in XIII. But due those missing features I listed. It doesn't have the replayability. Part of the big reason why many people's favorites are 2,3,7, and 10 is due to a focused story and pacing, which XIII also had. But those games also had a very good pacing at endgame and reward of questing the ultimate powers and sidequest. For the record yea I do love XIII graphics, but I love all of Square graphics on every FF title. They always deliver in the graphics department. Versus seems to be matching XIII in graphics but also bringing some of the magic back from titles before 10. I can't wait to get my sweaty hands on it.
#45 Mar 29 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
353 posts
Perhaps it just feels dated now, but I've been playing FFXII again recently and actually have been finding it kind of boring. In the first half at least, theres no challenge. Set one up to heal and toss out potions and raise and you can pretty much auto-attack through it (and with the international zodiac system at least, theres little more than auto-attacking to do for a LONG time).
I love the art style of FF12 but I think after being spoilt by the challenge of some of FF13 (It was fairly unforgiving after you got past that crazy-long tutorial period).

Anyways, this isn't about FF12 vs. 13. I think there are bits that could be taken from all the different final fantasies to really make it feel like you're playing one of the numbered series with your friends. At this point (and this is also something I had a gripe with in FFXI) it doesnt FEEL like a final fantasy world, I think perhaps it's the style of the dev team they use, but they seem to prefer the world you're in to look very realistic and like it could be real as opposed to the higher fantasy style that we see in other entries.
I think adding in some more exotic locales and magic would make it feel like the previous games a lot more (even FF12 in its semi-realistic setting albeit filled with airships and magic had sky cities and alike). FF13 of course goes crazy with futuristic settings and magic which I really enjoyed.
#46 Mar 29 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
23 posts
I could not agree with the OP more. ****, this game would be so much better if it was set in Ivalice.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)