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Yoshi-P comments on "Death Penalty" and "Item fix" issue.Follow

#1 Mar 28 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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On official JP forum there are some heat topics lured Yoshi-P's eye.

One is debating death penalty. Some users think the death penalty should become harder in order to make user feel more risk of battle, some disagree.
The other is gear fixing, this is a huge topic because users have many thoughts on the economic system around the wearing and fixing.
So he showed up and commented on the topic last night.

We all know current death penalty is relatively "light" because it only weak for 3 minutes and do nothing except prohibit zombie attack. Yoshi-P also referred the habit of suicide to get a free warp in order to preserve anima as "strange" in previous producer's letter.

He said the death penalty is necessary, and dev team is considering these points:
1. Status down (weak) on resurrection from death. Will recover after some time or pay gil to NPC.
2. Equipment wearing on warp after death, can be recovered by fixing.
3. Currently dev team have no plan to add "exp / sp loss" into death penalty.
4. Concurrent to point 2, the cost of equipment fixing will be lowered.
About "recover by NPC", if really implemented, will come along with some limit to prohibit zombie attack.

BTW the resurrect method is going to change in parallel:
  • "Raise" will be separated into different level zone
  • Raise: Low level, weak after resurrect, no gear wearing.
  • Raise II: Middle level, shorter or lighter weak after resurrect, no gear wearing
  • Raise III: High level, no weak, may have high mana cost or cool-down time to prevent zombie attack.
  • He is considering to lower the anima cost of warp to zero but add 10-20 min cool-down timer.

As a result:
  • No one need to suicide to get a free warp.
  • There is a higher chance to get raise.
  • By helping each other, fighters can avoid gear wearing, but still can feel suitable battle risk.
  • If wearing really happens it will not cost so much (time or money) to get your gears fixed.


If you are interested in original post, I quoted it as following.
Original post: http://goo.gl/3OQak
Quote:
皆さんのスレッドを読ませて頂いた上で、
デスペナルティに関して、今のところの方針をお伝えします。

・デスペナルティは必要と考えています(戦闘への緊張感のため)
・デスペナルティには2種類を想定しています
  ⇒死亡からの復活で必ず発生する「ステータスの一時ダウン」(時間回復orギル支払でNPC回復)
  ⇒死亡後にデジョンした時にのみ発生する「装備品の劣化」(修理で回復)
・修練値/経験値に直接的なロスト発生は現段階で想定していません
・装備品修理のコスト緩和対策も並行して行う

ステータスダウンについては、アタック→死亡→即蘇生→アタック→死亡…と
よくMMOで言われる「ゾンビアタック」を防ぐためにも、ある程度必要と考えています。
NPCによるステータス回復なんかは、このスレッドでも触れていらっしゃる方がいます。

ただし、以下のようにレイズの仕様変更も同時に計画中です。

・レイズへのレベル制導入(レイズI/レイズII/レイズIII *名称は仮)
・レイズI(蘇生後ステータスダウン発生、装備破損無し)
・レイズII(蘇生後弱ステータスダウン、もしくは短時間ステータスダウン、装備品破損無し)
・レイズIII(完全蘇生、ステータスダウン無し *リキャストタイマーもしくはMPコスト高)

つまり死亡しても「レイズ」してくれれば、一時的なステータスダウンだけで済みます。
しかし、レイズがランク38取得では、低ランク帯~中ランクで蘇生が行えないため、
レイズを複数化し、順に習得するようにする必要があると判断しています。

更にこのデスペナルティと引き換えに、デジョンのコストを0にすることを検討中。
(死亡時のデジョンではなく、通常時のデジョンです)
もちろん10-20mins程度のリキャストタイマーは付けるつもりですが、
デジョンのコストを0にすることで…

・アニマ節約のために死にデジョンする必要が無くなる
・死亡時の装備劣化は純粋な「全滅」にのみ適用される
・装備修理の手間を緩和(修理レシピの見直し)することで適正なリスクとなる
・レイズを低/中/高ランクに振り分けることで蘇生頻度が上がる(=全滅が減る/仲間たちのお陰でペナルティ頻度が減る)

辻レイズがもっと行えるようにしたいというのも、吉田の中に強くあります。

このように「デスペナルティ」は周辺バランスが噛み合って始めて、
純粋に「緊張感」として生きてくるものと考えています。
既にコスト精査に突入していますので、極端に先の実装にはならない予定です。

とにかく「ペナルティ食らったし、今日はもうログアウトしよう 」とならないように、
適度な緊張感を、というのが吉田の方針です。
(疲労度はまた別のスレッドにて)


Original post: http://goo.gl/8pcur
He said the moving and the balance of anima, the raise problem, and battle system adjustment / balance will be considered and posted in other topic, so please concentrate on death penalty issue.
Quote:
デジョンに触れたせいでアニマについてまで話題が拡散してしまって恐縮です。

・移動とアニマのバランス
・他クラスのアビリティ/スキル
・バトルのシステム改修とバランス調整

については開発内でも別途重点的に協議/検討していますので、
このスレッドでは、あくまでデスペナルティを中心に据えて頂けると助かります。



Edited, Mar 28th 2011 4:05am by KiichiGotou

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 4:08am by KiichiGotou
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#2 Mar 28 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I love you in a non-creepy way. Thanks for the translated info.
#3 Mar 28 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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I love you in a totally creepy way.

Yay for death penalty! I think the suggested option sounds actually quite nice. =)

#4 Mar 28 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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This is very much appreciated.
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#5 Mar 28 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, not too troublesome right now. But gear being damaged upon death warping really isnt desirable at the moment...
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#6 Mar 28 2011 at 4:37 AM Rating: Default
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Death penalty... do jRPG's have it? Answer no... it's like implementing an instant game over, and telling you to reboot your console to load save game from beginning from the area way back where you saved and travel all the **** again... at last that's how I see any kind of death penalties and i was always ****** on with them. The actual one that ffxiv has atm seems good to me and I'm not ****** at all, but looking at the current propositions i see that i will be ****** badly whenever I'll die and will tell some bad words about the person who implemented it.
#7 Mar 28 2011 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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For some reason I think it would be nice that the gil you have to pay is for a medic NPC in town to fix you back to shape instead of making the punishment only apply to gear. I'm sure clever players would find ways to easily take advantage of gear based weakness state as much of the pre r30 gear is pretty optional.
#8 Mar 28 2011 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
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EmiyaShirou wrote:
Death penalty... do jRPG's have it? Answer no... it's like implementing an instant game over, and telling you to reboot your console to load save game from beginning from the area way back where you saved and travel all the sh*t again... at last that's how I see any kind of death penalties and i was always ****** on with them. The actual one that ffxiv has atm seems good to me and I'm not ****** at all, but looking at the current propositions i see that i will be ****** badly whenever I'll die and will tell some bad words about the person who implemented it.


If you really hate it then this will work as intended, people will actually take care not to die (as it is supposed to be).

Personally I'm not so much into the whole recovering gear upon death thing, don't really get to understand how it would be implemented but would have to assume that every NPC in every camp/city would be able to do so.
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#9 Mar 28 2011 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you really hate it then this will work as intended, people will actually take care not to die (as it is supposed to be).


Dying should be the penalty in itself- you don't win the battle, you lose it. If the battles are so easy that they are pushovers, then a death penalty can make up for it and make the fights more 'intense'- but that is a backwards way of doing it. Battles should be made hard enough that dying itself would be the punishment, and nothing else is needed.

This doesn't sound too bad though. A bit pointless, but the JP's asked for it so masses decide.

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 11:25am by Hyanmen
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#10 Mar 28 2011 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Sounds fine to me as long as the equipment wear isn't exagerated.. like a 20% drop.. that would be too much imho..

Other than that.. if they never bring back exp penalty with level down I'll be fine.. the level down is a real **** off button to me..
By the way.. I always thought that exp penalty was stupid and unreal.. so you get KO'd okay.. and how the **** are you supposed to lose experience..? Unless you hit your head or something while falling.. then I guess in FFXI that had to be taken for granted..

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 7:39am by KaineGestalt
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#11 Mar 28 2011 at 5:42 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If you really hate it then this will work as intended, people will actually take care not to die (as it is supposed to be).


Dying should be the penalty in itself- you don't win the battle, you lose it. If the battles are so easy that they are pushovers, then a death penalty can make up for it and make the fights more 'intense'- but that is a backwards way of doing it. Battles should be made hard enough that dying itself would be the punishment, and nothing else is needed.

This doesn't sound too bad though. A bit pointless, but the JP's asked for it so masses decide.

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 11:25am by Hyanmen


The thing is, you don't actually lose the battle, 95%+ of the time you just lose 3 to 5 minutes and get to try again. Even on timed leves you get more than enough time to try once or twice fighting mobs at a certain star rating thendecide to go down 1 star and still you have enough time to finish off the leve with no problem.

If I had the choice between losing 10% or 5% of the current Rank's SP then things would be interesting. As it is even at r50 you have 100k SP i think so even at 10% you would only lose 10K which can be done in a couple of leves. I would personally prefer this with the weakness state to the current way with 3 mins weakness.
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#12 Mar 28 2011 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
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Eh... this doesn't motivate more not to die than the reasons why I fight monsters in the first place (get exp, get items, etc.), if anything it kinda kills the lighthearted mood where you can just take a couple of friends and go fool around or farm and not really care.

Overall good changes.

Quote:
If I had the choice between losing 10% or 5% of the current Rank's SP then things would be interesting. As it is even at r50 you have 100k SP i think so even at 10% you would only lose 10K which can be done in a couple of leves. I would personally prefer this with the weakness state to the current way with 3 mins weakness.

This game needs two kinds of servers.

'omgztehhardcorez' and 'fun'

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 6:49am by Ilean
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#13 Mar 28 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The thing is, you don't actually lose the battle, 95%+ of the time you just lose 3 to 5 minutes and get to try again.


You have to start from the beginning- yes, you do lose.

I can't say I ever felt XIII's way of letting me restart the battle immediately after losing (and making the actual fights harder as the result) was a bad thing. I think they could pretty much do the same thing here. Aside from getting a game over when the main character died, it was a good system.

Hiroshi Minagawa (UI) posted on the forums. Can't translate.

Edited, Mar 28th 2011 12:02pm by Hyanmen
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#14 Mar 28 2011 at 6:11 AM Rating: Decent
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@ Ilean - There have done so, Hardcore is FFXI, "Fun" is WoW.

@ Hyanmen - It appears we'll have to agree to disagree, in FFXII I though that just defeated the purpose of "fighting for your life" feeling.
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#15 Mar 28 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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You shouldn't fight for your life because there's a punishment for not doing so- you should fight for your life because otherwise you won't win.

That's the logic behind it.
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#16 Mar 28 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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In no way am I trying to force my point of view but I think it might be best to clarify why I am oposed to the current system:

As with any other MMO your performance will most likely not only depend on yourself but the people you play with, this is most noticable when you are in a party which although everyone wants to have a good time they will also try and use their time as best as possible, most SP/H or so.

As it is at the moment I feel that people, including myself, don't care much whether they die or not as there isn't much of a draw back to it. By increasing the penalty for dieing the comunity will eventually "force" people to play at their best. Everyone knows the story of Leroy Jenkins (I think) but I bet the people that actually saw it happening first hand actually saw it as a time waste.
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#17 Mar 28 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you sweet sweet yoshi-p for not putting an exp/sp death penalty back on. Never will be too soon if I see a level down again. I actually like the proposed changes. It might even give our healer a reason to Raise a tiny bit, just to avoid a bit of gear damage.
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#18 Mar 28 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I've said it before, but if you need a penalty to 'not care' about dying, that's your problem and not the game's. I'm fine without one because beating the mob, like I'm supposed to do, is plenty motivation already.
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#19 Mar 28 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately for the small percentage of players for whom a death penalty adds a sense of excitement to the game (beyond what is necessary for the basic game mechanics, e.g., preventing zombie zergs), for most players it merely adds frustration, both with the game and other players. It also breeds elitism like rabbits. When one player's weaknesses punishe another player, people tend to be a lot less trusting and tolerant of other players who may merely be average.

I predict that this will do absolutely nothing to help the game. This fixation on the death penalty is a faulty attribution of FFXIV's weaknesses. At the very least, it will bring no one back to the game.
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#20 Mar 28 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
At the very least, it will bring no one back to the game.


You'll either want to play the game because you want to or you won't because you don't want to, a death penalty isn't trying to lure anyone back to the game.
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#21 Mar 28 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Kachi wrote:
At the very least, it will bring no one back to the game.


You'll either want to play the game because you want to or you won't because you don't want to, a death penalty isn't trying to lure anyone back to the game.


Well this game is certainly doomed if they're not using this precious time to make people want to give the game another chance, and instead squander it on... frustrating the existing playerbase? My point is, this is a lateral move at best, and when you're fighting against the tide of failure you can't afford to swim any way but forward.
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#22 Mar 28 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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KiichiGotou wrote:
]By helping each other, fighters can avoid gear wearing, but still can feel suitable battle risk.[/li]
  • If wearing really happens it will not cost so much (time or money) to get your gears fixed.


  • Funny how those two statements are rather opposed to each other. "I want to actually feel some sort of risk, but I don't want to actually risk anything."
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    #23 Mar 28 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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    KaneKitty wrote:
    KiichiGotou wrote:
    ]By helping each other, fighters can avoid gear wearing, but still can feel suitable battle risk.[/li]
  • If wearing really happens it will not cost so much (time or money) to get your gears fixed.


  • Funny how those two statements are rather opposed to each other. "I want to actually feel some sort of risk, but I don't want to actually risk anything."


    I may just be picky, but looking at the Japanese vs. the English of those last bullet points, it seems a little off.

    Quote:
    ・アニマ節約のために死にデジョンする必要が無くなる

    By lowering the Anima cost, there will be less need for death waping.

    Quote:
    ・死亡時の装備劣化は純粋な「全滅」にのみ適用される

    Gear deterioration will only occur if you're "completely defeated" (I believe this refers to warping back to town without a raise)

    Quote:
    ・装備修理の手間を緩和(修理レシピの見直し)することで適正なリスクとなる

    By alleviating the labor of equipment repairs (re-evaluating repair recipes), death will become a reasonable risk.

    Quote:
    ・レイズを低/中/高ランクに振り分けることで蘇生頻度が上がる(=全滅が減る/仲間たちのお陰でペナルティ頻度が減る)

    By separating Raise into a lower, medium, and higher version, the frequency of reviving team mates will increase (= reduce the amount of "complete deaths"(warping back to town) / through cooperation with your team mates, the frequency of experiencing the death penalty will decrease)


    Not sure if that makes a difference for you KaneKitty, and certainly no discourtesy to the original post by taking a crack at re-translating. Just the way I understood reading the Japanese version.


    Edited, Mar 28th 2011 11:36am by ThePacster
    #24 Mar 28 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    Not sure if that makes a difference for you KaneKitty, and certainly no discourtesy to the original post for taking a crack at it. Just the way I understood reading the Japanese version.


    Could you translate Minagawa's text while you're at it? It's this one:

    Quote:
    XIVプレイヤーの皆様、はじめまして。UI担当の皆川と申します。
    アクティブモンスターの見分けアイコンの調整 概要をお知らせします。

    パッチ1.16から、キャラクターの頭上に表示されている「ネームプレート」にアクティブなモンスターを識別するアイコンが表示されるようになりましたが、非常に多くの「不要」というご意見を頂きました。一方で、このまま表示はでき て欲しいというご意見もいただいておりますので、アクティブモンスター識別アイコンの表示をプレ イヤーが任意設定できるように対応中です。

    また「赤いアイコンが目立ちすぎて画面の 雰囲気を壊している!」という点につきましても、次回パッチ1.17で追加検討中の敵のレベル表示と組み合わせたデザインで、アイコンを小さく調整中です。当初この2つの情報をセットでリリースする予定でしたが、敵レベルの表示が前回の パッチリリースに間に合わずアクティブアイコンだけ先行リリースとなっていました。

    実際の画面はパッチ1.17のアップデート告知(近日中)でお知らせしますでの、今暫くお待ち下さい。


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    #25 Mar 28 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Default
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    Death Penalty being more harsh just for the sake of it is not a good concept. Dying in itself is penalty enough as Hyanmen said. They should beef up content difficulty to make the game challenging, and not beef up death penalty. If they start making guildleves that actually take 30 minutes with challenging content. The current death penalty is going to be more harsh than any monetary penalty. You are going to lose. If they add timed Bcnms or dungeons like KS or Nyzule or boss fights. The current death penalty is sufficient. Rage timers on NM will make the current death timers more meaningful. Remember Dienamis? Yea, multiple deaths could mean your group failed. Going out and trying to regain levels or farm gil for gear repairs had no bearing on those events. Well sometimes it did, due to players not trying to earn levels or buffer back lol.

    The blood warp thing is real easy to fix. All you do is make the cost of blood warp actually costs the player what they are trying to save. In this case anima? Defeat the purpose of trying to abuse mechanics and the problem stops. But then that will probably start a rage fit among some players in itself.

    Player: Woot! ***** paying anima fees, I am going to blood warp every chance I get.
    Goes and blood warps alot.
    Player B: Um you do know blood warp cost anima now?
    Player: What? Oh no, all my anima is gone! Now I have to walk everywhere!
    Player B: LMAO
    Player: F$%#
    /rage quits.
    #26 Mar 28 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Hyanmen wrote:
    Quote:
    Not sure if that makes a difference for you KaneKitty, and certainly no discourtesy to the original post for taking a crack at it. Just the way I understood reading the Japanese version.


    Could you translate Minagawa's text while you're at it? It's this one:

    Quote:
    XIVプレイヤーの皆様、はじめまして。UI担当の皆川と申します。
    アクティブモンスターの見分けアイコンの調整 概要をお知らせします。

    パッチ1.16から、キャラクターの頭上に表示されている「ネームプレート」にアクティブなモンスターを識別するアイコンが表示されるようになりましたが、非常に多くの「不要」というご意見を頂きました。一方で、このまま表示はでき て欲しいというご意見もいただいておりますので、アクティブモンスター識別アイコンの表示をプレ イヤーが任意設定できるように対応中です。

    また「赤いアイコンが目立ちすぎて画面の 雰囲気を壊している!」という点につきましても、次回パッチ1.17で追加検討中の敵のレベル表示と組み合わせたデザインで、アイコンを小さく調整中です。当初この2つの情報をセットでリリースする予定でしたが、敵レベルの表示が前回の パッチリリースに間に合わずアクティブアイコンだけ先行リリースとなっていました。

    実際の画面はパッチ1.17のアップデート告知(近日中)でお知らせしますでの、今暫くお待ち下さい。




    Players of XIV, nice to meet you. I am Minagawa in charge of the UI.

    I'm here to give you a summary of the Active Monster icon adjustments.

    Starting from patch 1.16, although monsters have been given an icon next to their name plate to indicate that they are aggressive, we have received a great deal of feedback stating these icons are unnecessary. On the other hand, because we have also received feedback stating players want these icons left as they are, we are currently making adjustments so that players can voluntarily turn off these icons.

    Also, because we have received a lot of feed back stating "the red icons stand out too much ruining the atmosphere of the game!", for patch 1.17, we are pending additional review for a design to indicate enemy level, and adjusting to make the icon smaller. Although we planned to release these two features together, regardless of whether or not enemy level indications are ready for the patch release, active icon adjustments will be released first.

    As an actual picture will be presented in the Patch 1.17 notes (in a few days), we ask that you be patient a while longer.


    I hope that's ok, I was a little fuzzy on the underlined bit.

    Edit: typo

    Edited, Mar 28th 2011 12:16pm by ThePacster
    #27 Mar 28 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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    Thanks for the translation. Looks like 1.17 coming next week.
    #28 Mar 28 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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    Hm, so it sounds like they're actually reducing the death penalty?
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    #29 Mar 28 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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    i would be fine with a death penalty...However i'm not fine with being forced into it...if your not in a group no one can raise you. if you don't have(or know a a lvl 38 conjurer) your **** out of luck. im sure even if you did there not going to hike there happy *** from there r40 zone and stop doing there 30 minute timered leve's, Waste 4~6 Anima just to come raise your ***.

    So no right now im not fine with the Death Penalty, fix the game first then we can talk gimping features.
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    #30 Mar 28 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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    Quote:
    if you don't have(or know a a lvl 38 conjurer) your sh*t out of luck. im sure even if you did there not going to hike there happy *** from there r40 zone and stop doing there 30 minute timered leve's


    Keep in mind this is pure speculation, but I think one motive behind breaking up Raise into a 3 versions is to have raise available at 3 separate levels, with the best one perhaps being the level 38 version.
    #31 Mar 28 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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    Hugus wrote:
    @ Ilean - There have done so, Hardcore is FFXI, "Fun" is WoW.

    lol!
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    #32 Mar 28 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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    To all the people who don't believe in death penalty. The winning strat that was over-used for the CoP mission with Ultima and Omega are the perfect example of why a death penalty is needed. I knew so many people making a fortune and totally abusing the system by zombie nuking the weapons to win. 5 blms and a tourist would basically be use RR2 item, everyone nuke, wipe, reraise, reset RR2, and nuke, wipe, rinse and repeat until mob was dead. It was a sad and pathetic exploit to basically do what it takes to win, and seriously broke the whole purpose of the fight.

    And while people believe that winning is winning, simply throwing everything at a mob is just meaningless gameplay... Maybe I am just jaded.

    On a side note, I didn't see anyone else post it, but gear wear to prevent death-warps will not work, for the same reason that people were able to death warp and avoid the exp loss in 11. If you need to death warp, keep a weapon for a low level job that can die easily in the area, and just remove all equipment, get deaded, and warp, your worthless weapon takes damage, but you don't actually care because you are not actually using it. Basically the same as switching to a level 1 job and dying in 11, but more convenient, since you can just switch in the field now.
    #33 Mar 28 2011 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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    So in a game with death penalty people were still using zombie tactics?

    Isn't it stupid to use death penalty to stop people from throwing bodies on a few fights, instead of directly adding mechanics to prevent it?

    Because clearly, for some fights people will still do it even with a death penalty implemented, and you would be penalizing people dying for any reason, even on silly yellow mob fights where raising and nuking would only get you the awesome amount of 250 sp.

    rfolkker wrote:
    To all the people who don't believe in death penalty. The winning strat that was over-used for the CoP mission with Ultima and Omega are the perfect example of why a death penalty is needed. I knew so many people making a fortune and totally abusing the system by zombie nuking the weapons to win. 5 blms and a tourist would basically be use RR2 item, everyone nuke, wipe, reraise, reset RR2, and nuke, wipe, rinse and repeat until mob was dead. It was a sad and pathetic exploit to basically do what it takes to win, and seriously broke the whole purpose of the fight.

    And while people believe that winning is winning, simply throwing everything at a mob is just meaningless gameplay... Maybe I am just jaded.

    On a side note, I didn't see anyone else post it, but gear wear to prevent death-warps will not work, for the same reason that people were able to death warp and avoid the exp loss in 11. If you need to death warp, keep a weapon for a low level job that can die easily in the area, and just remove all equipment, get deaded, and warp, your worthless weapon takes damage, but you don't actually care because you are not actually using it. Basically the same as switching to a level 1 job and dying in 11, but more convenient, since you can just switch in the field now.

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    #34 Mar 28 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    You shouldn't fight for your life because there's a punishment for not doing so- you should fight for your life because otherwise you won't win.

    If there were a consequence to "not winning," I would agree with you, but 99% of the time there isn't. And, of course, in a group activity, dying doesn't even necessarily mean that you don't win. If you're rotating two tanks, for example, then a tank dying can have literally no consequence. A DD dying is even less consequential than a tank: "Oh, Bill died. I guess we'll kill it slightly more slowly while he gets back up."

    If "not winning" meant "you can't try again," then THAT would be an actual punishment. But, it almost never does.

    It's all a matter of personal taste, of course, but I personally like being attached enough to my character that bad things happening to him mean something more to me than "I guess I'll just stand over here until I'm ready to rejoin the fight." It meaningfully lowers my level of investment in when I'm not the least bit afraid of dying. It feels like playing an arcade game with unlimited quarters, which sounds awesome in principle but gets boring quickly.
    #35 Mar 28 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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    Adding mechanics to prevent death is the infamous "easy button/mode" that people hate to see done to MMORPGs. What you do, is come up with a strategy that will minimize or negate death all together.

    When you can die with no repercussion, you don't bother coming up with a strategy.
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    #36 Mar 28 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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    Excellent news! Thank you for the translation. Finally, my Raise/Resurrect abilities will have a purpose!
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    #37 Mar 28 2011 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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    Mistress Theonehio wrote:

    When you can die with no repercussion, you don't bother coming up with a strategy.

    We plan our strategies to win the fight, not to avoid death, and yet people dying means increased risk of wiping, aka losing the fight. Repercussion in the context of increasing the odds of failure in an important fight seems enough motivation to me.

    If not dying was the goal we would simply stay in town forever.

    Again, there are simple and straightforward ways that can further prevent people from using zombie tactics. Although honestly. Having your HP halved, your spell cast and recast times doubled and your stamina recover slowed to a crawl, I don't really see how zombie tactics could be effective in this game at all.


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    #38 Mar 28 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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    This is how I like to look at the death penalty debate:

    Having a (reasonable) death penalty in an MMO is like a horror game actually being scary. When the risk of death goes up, you'll start feeling nervous and if you die, you might even get mad, especially if you died because of a stupid, completely avoidable, mistake. I can relate to that and I don't like being annoyed, either, however, if you take the death penalty away, if you strip the horror from a horror game, you're left with nothing but a shell. If the horror game isn't scary, why are you playing it? Didn't you get into it because you wanted to be scared?

    It's like the debate of whether having choices is good or bad (and I'm not talking about abortion here): The pro-choice crowd will say the players always benefit from being able to choose, I think that's false. If a player playing a horror game would always get to choose how the game progresses, he'd always choose for nothing scary to happen. The excitement comes from the knowledge that you're constrained, even helpless, in front of what the game throws at you.

    Another point that I've noticed at least in myself is that when the penalty for failure is low, I become less involved and as a result become sloppy. Sloppiness increases my rate of failure and then I get frustrated at myself for playing so poorly. It's like the the lower the annoyance from the actual effects of failure is, the more I compensate by being annoyed with myself.

    Also, look at Diablo 2 and how hugely popular the Hardcore ladder has been through the years. Even with permanent death, the harshest punishment implemented in an Internet game, hardcore mode never seems to run out of thrill seekers.

    Edited, Mar 28th 2011 3:55pm by Omena
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    #39 Mar 28 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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    I don't see anything wrong with the ideas for the death penalty. The current penalty isn't much of a penalty to begin with and raise has little to no use right now unless the player is bound to a place far away. Make the penalty harsher, but give players more options to reduce it depending on their actions or set up; and it should aid the game rather then detract from it. Players will want to group up more for exploring, people will want to avoid full wipes constantly and also protect the healers even more so that they can be raised with less penalties and little repercussion. Healers will get more utility in the game, crafters will become more needed for repairs, people will learn to become cautious of death rather then just see it an annoying obstacle. I'm sorry, death in this game is a joke. It isn't really even a penalty other then try and kill full on zombie tactics, and its very hard to balance a game with an army of undead soldiers whose only penalty is a short amount of time.

    As for durability... can't say I'm ****** at it. Almost every game on the market that has durability in the game has even harsher penalties for people dying. In WoW people get like a 5% immediate durability penalty upon death, and an even harsher one if they don't bother getting their corpse. Furthermore the 'weakness' in WoW can't be taken off if you raise from spirit healer and lasts as much as 10 minutes, a lot longer compared to the miniscule 3 minutes we have now, which they are thinking about further reducing through raises.
    #40 Mar 28 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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    Omena wrote:
    This is how I like to look at the death penalty debate:

    Having a (reasonable) death penalty in an MMO is like a horror game actually being scary.


    So in other words:

    Death Penalty = Dead Space/2
    No Death Penalty = Resident Evil 4/5/everything after?

    Smiley: grin
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    #41sandpark, Posted: Mar 28 2011 at 2:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Where does this idea come from that dying in mmos with death penalties make everyone scared? The only thing monetary or xp penalties do is keep people from enjoying other content after dying on a certain event the night before. It is kind of funny, you hear people complaining about crappy SP or the fatigue system. But then they turn around and beg for harsh death penalties. The only people harhser penalties hurt are casuals. Any player with more playing time is going to always keep buffers capped or their pockets fat enough so the harsher penalties don't affect them or view death as scary. You say the guildleves and market systems hurt casuals. Well do you think it's fair to make them grind experience or gil to pay for something like death, that may or may not be their fault in all cases?
    #42sandpark, Posted: Mar 28 2011 at 2:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Where does this idea come from that dying in mmos with death penalties make everyone scared? The only thing monetary or xp penalties do is keep people from enjoying other content after dying on a certain event the night before. It is kind of funny, you hear people complaining about crappy SP or the fatigue system. But then they turn around and beg for harsh death penalties. The only people harhser penalties hurt are casuals. Any player with more playing time is going to always keep buffers capped or their pockets fat enough so the harsher penalties don't affect them or view death as scary. You say the guildleves and market systems hurt casuals. Well do you think it's fair to make them grind experience or gil to pay for something like death, that may or may not be their fault in all cases?
    #43 Mar 28 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
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    Double post oopsies. Sorry.
    #44 Mar 28 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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    sorry but what is considered "zombie" attacks? or attack? never heard this before. is it fighting when your weakened?
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    #45 Mar 28 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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    SplatterPattern wrote:
    sorry but what is considered "zombie" attacks? or attack? never heard this before. is it fighting when your weakened?


    I would guess its some translation or Japanese slang for zerging, attacking while still weak.
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    #46 Mar 28 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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    KujaKoF wrote:
    SplatterPattern wrote:
    sorry but what is considered "zombie" attacks? or attack? never heard this before. is it fighting when your weakened?


    I would guess its some translation or Japanese slang for zerging, attacking while still weak.


    Yup, it's attacking while weakened. In 11 it was the reason why the introduced double weakness. They were desperately trying to not nerf BLMs, but stop the BLM exploit of nuke/die/rr. Literally every mob (and most of the videos I saw of AV in the beginning that were "successes" involved the BLM strategy at some point. Historically speaking (at least from 11, and so far in 14) the lower the penalty, the less the strategy... while zerging may be a strategy, it should not be a one size zerg fits all.
    #47 Mar 28 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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    At the end positive motivation works better than negative. Perhaps they could have mobs start a fight with a bonus to drops, or exp. Each time the mob kills a party member the bonus is lowered and after n victims (depending on the mob) the bonus is gone.

    There's a good reason not to throw bodies on important fights that doesn't feel like we are being made take a bite out of the pickle and reinsert it again and again.
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    #48 Mar 28 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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    when my friends played endgame in WoW, i noticed there was no double weakness or anything like that, however they required vent, talking was not allowed unless the group was standing around, constant communication (about abilities/spells/mob position) etc. basically, absolute perfect strategy was needed for them even though they didnt experience much of a penalty on death.
    im no pro at WoW, but it seems to me like a strict death penalty shouldnt have to force people to use strategies in game.
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    #49 Mar 28 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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    That's my line of thought Ilean.
    Death Penalties should be like a mother's scorn:
    1st time: Pat on the wrist, don't do that again.
    2nd time: A little harsher and a warning last chance.
    3rd time: Go sit in the corner your a bad boy.

    Rewards for no deaths should be like a mother's love:
    Nurture, reward, and guide you through life.
    Gamewise it would go like this:
    No deaths= Maximum bonus
    Few casualties= Bonuses drop some.
    Deathfest= Drop rates or xp rates go horribad.
    Battle regiments used 10 per 30 minutes= Increased xp rates.
    Incapacitations used 5 per mob= Increased drop rates.
    Content completion time= Monetary and reputation bonus.

    This type of system rewards group play for the content at hand. People always want to improve themselves for the betterment of themselves. And this system doesn't punish you make you do other activities you may not feel like doing. They can expand on this hundred fold.

    Edited, Mar 28th 2011 5:07pm by sandpark
    #50 Mar 28 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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    pixelpop wrote:
    when my friends played endgame in WoW... basically, absolute perfect strategy was needed for them


    Is this a joke? Were your friends, perhaps, wearing oven mitts to enhance the risk involved? Either way, this made me lol.
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    #51 Mar 28 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
    KaneKitty wrote:
    pixelpop wrote:
    when my friends played endgame in WoW... basically, absolute perfect strategy was needed for them


    Is this a joke? Were your friends, perhaps, wearing oven mitts to enhance the risk involved? Either way, this made me lol.



    A lot of people don't see it, but if you're doing heroic mode raiding in WoW when it is level appropriate, it really does take a high level of coordination and strategy. It's just that WoW really kills that sense of achievement because of its hamster wheel progression. Wait a month and everyone will have done it with half the skill and half the strategy needed. You're either World First zomg!!! or you're the rabble. Not a great balance for giving a sense of achievement in my book.
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