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There will be an auto-attackFollow

#52 Mar 31 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:

That being said, if SE is wanting to bring the traditional Final Fantasy jobs into the game, they'd have to scrap the old ones.


They don't really. Either the traditional classes specialize from the current classes or they are advanced classes you can branch off to after leveling the current classes. The lore is already in place, as well as several quests fleshing out the classes, so it would not make sense to 'scrap' them. Their backgrounds are unique enough to allow for them to be even part of the specializations if they wanted to do it that way. All they would need to do is make their equipment and abilities stand out (Gladiator to gain "Hercules's Fury", "Zeus's Wrath" and "Caesar's Perseverance" skills for example).


What I was getting at is the idea that our current classes are just combinations of traditional classes. They've just been butchered up and stitched back together.

That being said, if they added... say, Paladin. Gladiator/Sentinel is already in the game, and already has abilities that are unique to Paladins, such as Cover. It wouldn't help the game to have two classes that function in similar manners. We already have more than enough of that. So if they added a Traditional Paladin, they would have to give it Traditional Paladin Skills. But because Gladiator already has some of those skills, it would be redundant to let Gladiators still have them.

The same could be said about the other classes and their traditional variants... Pugilist and Monks... Lancer and Dragoons... To be honest, the only one that comes close to being their traditional counterpart is Archer. But even then, Rangers could still equip melee weapons and guns....

I know there have been a number of posts about wanting to make a talent-tree system, and dress it up like a License Board. But that defeats the purpose behind switching classes around. One of the great things about FFXI, (suck it up, I'm comparing them), is that players could change their jobs very easily. That was one of the major traits that worked out very well for the game. SE even intended that feature even more accessible in this game with the Armory system. Taking into consideration that the Stat/ Action Point Allotment system, (for as absolutely terrible as it was executed), was intended to let players change their play-style quickly and easily. (Though this is not the actual case, that was the intent. I'm sure most of us can recognize that). This said, talent trees are not a good way to implement traditional classes.

That leaves us the option of making the traditional classes actual playable classes, and not specs, or hierarchies. If they implemented the traditional classes, they will have to either take away the original FFXIV classes all together, or revamp their abilities so that they don't over-lap with the traditional classes. Example: A Gladiator is LFG next to a Paladin. The Paladin is the obvious choice, and would completely remove the need for a Gladiator.

Or, there is the horrible nightmare idea that SE could ***** up even the traditional classes, leaving the original FFXIV system more desirable. Example: Who wants to level a Black Mage, and be stuck LFG against all the other unique DD-onry people, when they can play a Conjurer and heal/buff themselves, while having access to Ancient Magic? (Though AM sucks right now).

Granted, that goes against the spirit of MMOs, but there will always be noobs who don't care, and just want to be omni-powerful, with an audience.

So yes... If they're going to add a real Dragoon, they might as well get rid of Lancer, cause no one is going to play it.
#53 Mar 31 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
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A guy who had a bodybuilders body and hands(from playing classic combat games)just recently purchases the new Mortal Kombat. He invites a friend over to have a competitive PvP match. His friend in ecstatic as they begin playing.
The friend asks: How come nothing happens when I push different buttons?

The strong guy: Oh, the game has an improved combat system. All of the basic things like punch, kick, backstep, flip, throw are all automated now. The devs hearing some player feedback decided all the standard setup moves were tedious, so now we just activate special moves on cooldowns..

The friend: Ok, How do I initiate regular combat?

Strong guy: Just target me and select attack.

The battle starts playing out, and both players do their special moves when they become ready. The strong guy starts noticing his friend is not doing any special moves at times during the fight.

Strong guy: Hey! Why are you not fighting back?

Friend: What? Oh sorry, one of my favorite parts of everybody loves raymond was on.

Aynways the night ends and a year goes by. That same friend goes over to visit his strong friend. But the strong guy is no longer buff, he is overweight. The freind glances over at his formerly strong friends hands and notices they are soft.

Friend: Holy crap, your hands look wierd! You could be a hand model for a dishwashing liquid company!

Former strong guy: Shut up....

This scenario is not how I feel imparticular. But to anyone playing an mmo for the first time. It could feel a little wierd to them.

Edited, Mar 31st 2011 9:52pm by sandpark
#54 Mar 31 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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923 posts
sandpark wrote:
A guy who had a bodybuilders body and hands(from playing classic combat games)just recently purchases the new Mortal Kombat. He invites a friend over to have a competitive PvP match. His friend in ecstatic as they begin playing.
The friend asks: How come nothing happens when I push different buttons?

The strong guy: Oh, the game has an improved combat system. All of the basic things like punch, kick, backstep, flip, throw are all automated now. The devs hearing some player feedback decided all the standard setup moves were tedious, so now we just activate special moves on cooldowns..

The friend: Ok, How do I initiate regular combat?

Strong guy: Just target me and select attack.

The battle starts playing out, and both players do their special moves when they become ready. The strong guy starts noticing his friend is not doing any special moves at times during the fight.

Strong guy: Hey! Why are you not fighting back?

Friend: What? Oh sorry, one of my favorite parts of everybody loves raymond was on.

Aynways the night ends and a year goes by. That same friend goes over to visit his strong friend. But the strong guy is no longer buff, he is overweight. The freind glances over at his formerly strong friends hands and notices they are soft.

Friend: Holy crap, your hands look wierd! You could be a hand model for a dishwashing liquid company!

Former strong guy: Shut up....

This scenario is not how I feel imparticular. But to anyone playing an mmo for the first time. It could feel a little wierd to them.

Edited, Mar 31st 2011 9:52pm by sandpark


-10/10
#55 Mar 31 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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XenoKrates wrote:
KaineGestalt wrote:
In my opinion a battle system similar to the one of Lineage 2 would fit FFXIV..

1. Fast/medium auto-attack based on speed of each weapon.. - Yes.. FFXI had an auto-attack too.. but I felt like getting asleep between attacks during a fight with my scythe or greatsword... besides stopping for so long after an attack just looked plain stupid imho..

2. Skills would drain stamina.. - So that there would be no need to get rid of it and people would just not spam skills all the time..

3. Magic would drain MP..
- As usual..

4. Special moves would drain TP.. - As usual..

So this is my idea of a good fighting system.. how about it..?

Edited, Mar 31st 2011 5:28pm by KaineGestalt

I don't see any reason to keep stamina... I think you're right but they'll drop stamina.

its not about having a reason to keep the stamina gauge, i think its incorrect to assume every class is played the same in every game. the rogue class or whatever in WoW uses a stamina gauge just like what we have, but none of the other classes do.
the class Boomkin (magic DD class) or whatever has a moon-sun gauge which shifts (dont know how), but its alignment effects your spells such as damage output and stuff.
i personally think its really awesome if a class has something different about the way it plays such as the above examples. i dont develop games but if every other game in the world has the technology and man power to do things like that, why not SE?

i can imagine the balancing in WoW isnt great either, but of all of my complaints about the game, balance issues wasnt even on the map, it was either hidden well or i had too many other things to do to think about it, either way it worked for me and my friends.

Edited, Apr 1st 2011 1:13am by pixelpop
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#56 Apr 01 2011 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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I would like to see Auto Attack treated like AoE, where it can be turned on and off, and when on, you choose your attack (that is an "Attack", so Guard, Protect, Cure and such would not override your current auto-attack), and that attack triggers at it's normal speed, with it draining your stamina/TP/MP as applicable.

Of course, reduce the amount of stamina that the basic attack uses, as we would now be triggering it more often, and when Auto-Attack is "Off" your basic attack becomes your auto-attack, when it's "On" it's whatever attack you triggered last.

That would add some strategy, and allow for in-combat chatting and being able to say stuff like "<Paralyzed>" without losing a beat in combat, and not needing to be on vent or skype.

It would also allow for the main combat layer to remain "mostly" the same, but at the same time giving the players a much more useful feel to our abilities...

Just a thought. It will be curious to see how they actually do it.
#57 Apr 01 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
I would like to see Auto Attack treated like AoE, where it can be turned on and off, and when on, you choose your attack (that is an "Attack", so Guard, Protect, Cure and such would not override your current auto-attack), and that attack triggers at it's normal speed, with it draining your stamina/TP/MP as applicable.

Of course, reduce the amount of stamina that the basic attack uses, as we would now be triggering it more often, and when Auto-Attack is "Off" your basic attack becomes your auto-attack, when it's "On" it's whatever attack you triggered last.

That would add some strategy, and allow for in-combat chatting and being able to say stuff like "<Paralyzed>" without losing a beat in combat, and not needing to be on vent or skype.

It would also allow for the main combat layer to remain "mostly" the same, but at the same time giving the players a much more useful feel to our abilities...

Just a thought. It will be curious to see how they actually do it.


It would be pretty much impossible to design a battle system to allow a toggling auto attack.
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#58 Apr 01 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:

It would be pretty much impossible to design a battle system to allow a toggling auto attack.

Not in it's simplest form, make 1 start autoattacking, 1 again stops autoattacking (not disengaging).

I'd hate not to be able to, the old unlock and turn on sleeping mobs of XI would have to come back.
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#59 Apr 01 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ilean wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

It would be pretty much impossible to design a battle system to allow a toggling auto attack.

Not in it's simplest form, make 1 start autoattacking, 1 again stops autoattacking (not disengaging).

I'd hate not to be able to, the old unlock and turn on sleeping mobs of XI would have to come back.


I doubt it would, and in fact yoshida said it would not be. Having auto attacking basic attacks doesn't mean the game is going back to FFXI's swing, 5 seconds another swing and using an ability every 90 seconds. What should happen, is auto attacking on a low damage regular attack, and more emphasis on specials, timing abilities, and using the right ability for the situation. More importantly, by separating specials and regular attacks, buttons might actually do what you want them to when you press the button, instead of waiting out the shared global cool down that we have now.
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#60 Apr 01 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Ilean wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

It would be pretty much impossible to design a battle system to allow a toggling auto attack.

Not in it's simplest form, make 1 start autoattacking, 1 again stops autoattacking (not disengaging).

I'd hate not to be able to, the old unlock and turn on sleeping mobs of XI would have to come back.


I doubt it would, and in fact yoshida said it would not be. Having auto attacking basic attacks doesn't mean the game is going back to FFXI's swing, 5 seconds another swing and using an ability every 90 seconds. What should happen, is auto attacking on a low damage regular attack, and more emphasis on specials, timing abilities, and using the right ability for the situation. More importantly, by separating specials and regular attacks, buttons might actually do what you want them to when you press the button, instead of waiting out the shared global cool down that we have now.

I meant that if we have autoattack I hope we can stop attacking without disengaging.
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#61 Apr 01 2011 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Ilean wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Ilean wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

It would be pretty much impossible to design a battle system to allow a toggling auto attack.

Not in it's simplest form, make 1 start autoattacking, 1 again stops autoattacking (not disengaging).

I'd hate not to be able to, the old unlock and turn on sleeping mobs of XI would have to come back.


I doubt it would, and in fact yoshida said it would not be. Having auto attacking basic attacks doesn't mean the game is going back to FFXI's swing, 5 seconds another swing and using an ability every 90 seconds. What should happen, is auto attacking on a low damage regular attack, and more emphasis on specials, timing abilities, and using the right ability for the situation. More importantly, by separating specials and regular attacks, buttons might actually do what you want them to when you press the button, instead of waiting out the shared global cool down that we have now.

I meant that if we have autoattack I hope we can stop attacking without disengaging.


Oh, sorry if I misunderstood. I'm sure they'll have something for that, every other game does these days.
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#62 Apr 01 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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samosamo wrote:
sandpark wrote:
A guy who had a bodybuilders body and hands(from playing classic combat games)just recently purchases the new Mortal Kombat. He invites a friend over to have a competitive PvP match. His friend in ecstatic as they begin playing.
The friend asks: How come nothing happens when I push different buttons?

The strong guy: Oh, the game has an improved combat system. All of the basic things like punch, kick, backstep, flip, throw are all automated now. The devs hearing some player feedback decided all the standard setup moves were tedious, so now we just activate special moves on cooldowns..

The friend: Ok, How do I initiate regular combat?

Strong guy: Just target me and select attack.

The battle starts playing out, and both players do their special moves when they become ready. The strong guy starts noticing his friend is not doing any special moves at times during the fight.

Strong guy: Hey! Why are you not fighting back?

Friend: What? Oh sorry, one of my favorite parts of everybody loves raymond was on.

Aynways the night ends and a year goes by. That same friend goes over to visit his strong friend. But the strong guy is no longer buff, he is overweight. The freind glances over at his formerly strong friends hands and notices they are soft.

Friend: Holy crap, your hands look wierd! You could be a hand model for a dishwashing liquid company!

Former strong guy: Shut up....

This scenario is not how I feel imparticular. But to anyone playing an mmo for the first time. It could feel a little wierd to them.

Edited, Mar 31st 2011 9:52pm by sandpark


-10/10

people seem to forget, even FFXI had auto attack, FFXI, Rift, WoW, Aion, im pretty sure blade and soul will have auto attack, and a handful of crappy trying to make it MMOs have auto attack.
so just fyi, auto attack is never enough to kill enemies that are worth experience, and the developers made sure in this statement that they will make it to where auto attack will not be enough to kill any mobs in this game, and with SEs history of being sadists, i can guarentee that auto attack in FFXIV will not allow you to turn your head for more than a second.
plus, since your spells/abilities are what are needed to down the enemy, they usually dont have massive cooldowns allowing you to keep your fingers busy the entire fight. thats just how its supposed to work.


Quote:
I meant that if we have autoattack I hope we can stop attacking without disengaging.

in FFXI you turned around asap (usually for when mobs need to be slept)

Edited, Apr 1st 2011 4:58pm by pixelpop
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#63 Apr 01 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
by separating specials and regular attacks, buttons might actually do what you want them to when you press the button, instead of waiting out the shared global cool down that we have now.


huh? not disagreeing, just dont know what your talking about lol, i know we have a terrible delay in any button pushing, but whats this global delay and stuff?
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#64 Apr 01 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:
by separating specials and regular attacks, buttons might actually do what you want them to when you press the button, instead of waiting out the shared global cool down that we have now.


huh? not disagreeing, just dont know what your talking about lol, i know we have a terrible delay in any button pushing, but whats this global delay and stuff?


There is an amount of time, after performing an action, that you cannot use another action, you kinda queue it up. Its the reason that you cannot hit Light thrust 4 times in one second and have it happen 4 times draining all your stamina. basically, from what I've seen, the game is programed to allow actions every X seconds (feels like 1.5-2seconds, but I'm just pulling that off the top of my head). When you press a button, it'll queue that attack until the next time the action timer allows you to actually perform it. Either way, even if my theory why is completely wrong, the problem is still there. there is often an annoying delay between when you press a button, and when it occurs.
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#65 Apr 01 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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pixelpop wrote:


Quote:
I meant that if we have autoattack I hope we can stop attacking without disengaging.

in FFXI you turned around asap (usually for when mobs need to be slept)

Edited, Apr 1st 2011 4:58pm by pixelpop

lol that's exactly what I said a couple of posts above, I rather have a way to stop autoattacking without disengaging than the old unlock and turn


Also, yes you can queue 1 command max right now and it sucks that we can not overide it with another, not a big deal and you can go work around it but I hope it's addressed.




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#66 Apr 01 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
KujaKoF wrote:
.. to allow actions every X seconds (feels like 1.5-2seconds...


I think it is simply allowing you to que one action at a time. Therefore, the time before it will allow you to que a second action is defined by the casting/attack speed of the first ability you use.
#67 Apr 01 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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I know alot of games use auto attack. My point is, I don't wanna be able to go from game to game and they all have the same UI, same hotkey cooldowns, same targeting systems, same trinity setup, same economies, same whatever. When you have played any FF before now, they all took some of the lore or other small things. But they never used the same exact battle system sped up or not. If it is similar to speed to XI it's not different. And if it is sped up it becomes a button spam fest just as some complained about basic attacks. If setting up your stronger skills is not important, then why even have tp?

Let's say you played FF7(this or 3 is my favorite)for 10 years straight. Then FF9 came out and used the same races(I know 14 uses different lore, adds tails,etc. ), same battle system sped up or not, same etc,etc,etc. Could you play that day in and day out for another 10 years and never question if it feels fresh? They could stick a tail on Cloud and call him elf, but would you really see him as a new unique character?

I actually would have prefered the alpha system tuned up to be faster and have more meaning such as precise controls over parameters such as Potency, AoE range, Archer bow tension, accuracy, power, spell tier selection, mp consumption, etc. Instead due to low understanding or inefficient tuning we were left with the atb system. Which if tuned and expanded on could have been more well oiled.

Instead of fine tuning the freedom we were giving at launch and making it more streamlined and enough restrictions to make it viable. Entire systems are being stripped down to move towards old basic rehashed systems. Auto Attack is putting combat on rails, and making gear play too prevalent a role in combat.Go to any mmo forums other than here.
And you will see other fanbases crying why certain systems are on rails. TOR space combat is a tunnel shooter, it removes some of the player skill and makes gameplay easier.
Tera fans almost went crazy when there was a rumor of free targeting being removed and replaced with hard targeting. Players are finally growing tired off text based lore,hub to hub repetitive quest. Go figure? People get exhausted repeating old styles of gameplay.

If you think that auto attack or copying other mmos is going to be the saving grace for XIV. I think you are wrong. Rift copied down almost all of WoW and while it had a strong launch. Many players have returned to their old games like WoW,etc. Why? Because why play a game that is similar to older games, when they can play the older ones with old friends, 100x the content, and light pc requirements?

This game will gain more subs whether it uses a unique class or combat system or reverts to old systems. But copying or rehashing old systems will limit the game from becoming anything but niche. Harsh penalties, severe restictions, and the like will result in players looking for fun rather than jumping in and finding the fun slap you in the face. And if you want the game to remain niche just because your nostalgia with XI. Then you are doing a disservice to SE by limiting innovation. And btw XI still is there and will remain there as long as you want it. Playing XI or WoW or whatever with a couple of refinements. Will not justify purchasing an expensive computer for the masses. As for the PS3, they are going to have look into either not charging for play, or having reduced prices. Many console users who are plus subscribers will not take well to paying for internet, their plus subscription, in addition to full price for play.

Edited, Apr 1st 2011 5:55pm by sandpark
#68 Apr 01 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
I know alot of games use auto attack. My point is, I don't wanna be able to go from game to game and they all have the same UI, same hotkey cooldowns, same targeting systems, same trinity setup, same economies, same whatever. When you have played any FF before now, they all took some of the lore or other small things. But they never used the same exact battle system sped up or not. If it is similar to speed to XI it's not different. And if it is sped up it becomes a button spam fest just as some complained about basic attacks. If setting up your stronger skills is not important, then why even have tp?

Let's say you played FF7(this or 3 is my favorite)for 10 years straight. Then FF9 came out and used the same races(I know 14 uses different lore, adds tails,etc. ), same battle system sped up or not, same etc,etc,etc. Could you play that day in and day out for another 10 years and never question if it feels fresh? They could stick a tail on Cloud and call him elf, but would you really see him as a new unique character?

I actually would have prefered the alpha system tuned up to be faster and have more meaning such as precise controls over parameters such as Potency, AoE range, Archer bow tension, accuracy, power, spell tier selection, mp consumption, etc. Instead due to low understanding or inefficient tuning we were left with the atb system. Which if tuned and expanded on could have been more well oiled.

Instead of fine tuning the freedom we were giving at launch and making it more streamlined and enough restrictions to make it viable. Entire systems are being stripped down to move towards old basic rehashed systems. Auto Attack is putting combat on rails, and making gear play too prevalent a role in combat.Go to any mmo forums other than here.
And you will see other fanbases crying why certain systems are on rails. TOR space combat is a tunnel shooter, it removes some of the player skill and makes gameplay easier.
Tera fans almost went crazy when there was a rumor of free targeting being removed and replaced with hard targeting. Players are finally growing tired off text based lore,hub to hub repetitive quest. Go figure? People get exhausted repeating old styles of gameplay.

If you think that auto attack or copying other mmos is going to be the saving grace for XIV. I think you are wrong. Rift copied down almost all of WoW and while it had a strong launch. Many players have returned to their old games like WoW,etc. Why? Because why play a game that is similar to older games, when they can play the older ones with old friends, 100x the content, and light pc requirements?

This game will gain more subs whether it uses a unique class or combat system or reverts to old systems. But copying or rehashing old systems will limit the game from becoming anything but niche. Harsh penalties, severe restictions, and the like will result in players looking for fun rather than jumping in and finding the fun slap you in the face. And if you want the game to remain niche just because your nostalgia with XI. Then you are doing a disservice to SE by limiting innovation. And btw XI still is there and will remain there as long as you want it. Playing XI or WoW or whatever with a couple of refinements. Will not justify purchasing an expensive computer for the masses. As for the PS3, they are going to have look into either not charging for play, or having reduced prices. Many console users who are plus subscribers will not take well to paying for internet, their plus subscription, in addition to full price for play.

Edited, Apr 1st 2011 5:55pm by sandpark


I'm not saying copy another battle system with auto attack involved. However I cannot see how a new battle system with an auto attack could be worse than this one. Its awful. If they want us pushing buttons for every attack, give us a fast paced combo system like DCU has, right now it feels I'm micromanaging crap that is automated in every other game, and its actually reducing the little strategy this game has by forcing me to stop attacking to talk or use items or move.

Quote:

I think it is simply allowing you to que one action at a time. Therefore, the time before it will allow you to que a second action is defined by the casting/attack speed of the first ability you use.


You could very well be right, I was basing my theory on that quite often I feel a delay in response time when I first attack. I would chalk it up to lag, but its literally the only thing that causes lag for me. Made me think that basically a game wide "turn" happened every X seconds and it only triggered stuff then.
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