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Auto-Attack vs.....diminishing returns?Follow

#1 Apr 02 2011 at 10:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to preface this with a thank you, for those who brave the Lodestone forums and shovel out the gems for us ZAM posters to mull over. And thank you twice for those who have translated said gems.

That said:
Akihiko Matsui wrote:
The objective here is not to lower the battle difficulty. The main objective here, when thinking about battles rich in strategy, pace, and exhilaration, is instead of having to time regular attacks, we will be preparing situations that require proper timing of abilities, magic, and weapon skills. Following this, weaker enemies are a different story, but we will make sure it’s balanced so you can’t win a fight just by using auto-attack.

Bolded the part I have misgivings about.

And it's not that I disagree with an auto-attack. Or agree with it. I'm waiting on the implementation to see how it plays. But...I have misgivings with the bolded. Given what went before, do they mean that you will be able to defeat lesser enemies with auto-attack, and not "bosses"? Or does this include all enemies? The first, I wouldn't mind. But the second?

And how would they implement that? I fear diminishing returns. And I pray I am wrong.

I have no problem being a caster. And whacking things in the face with my staff. Or my scepter. Whichever seems appropriate. But the idea that that minute damage I am able to do with an auto-attack with said weapons will diminish over the course of the battle, ending with joke numbers (Alright. Even more joke numbers) to balance an auto-attack...doesn't sit right.

I'd post a poll about how people feel about this, but alas I am too cheap for premium. So I guess I will end this with asking: "Am I the only one who has this fear?"
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#2 Apr 02 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
I would help you with the poll, but not sure what questions you want asked.

I guess here, I am still new to the MMO genre. I am not sure what everyone means by "auto-attack". Is this where I choose, small, medium, or large based attack, or do I place a combination of moves and the game decides what sequence and or timing to perform.

As a healer, this seems harsh, because sometimes I need to spam healing spells due to our group being creative and trying to beat a really hard monster/mob, knowing we probally would not try if I were not a healer. Will auto-atack diminish this ability? Will it toggle. I am not one that just spams an attack, although I probally could, but this in itself is boring.

If this "auto-attack" were like Ledgend of Legaia whereas I have to choose a combination to equal a large attack, could be interesting. Maybe I am just too new to the scene and don't get it...but then again, I like choice.

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#3 Apr 02 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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River75, Assassin Reject wrote:
I would help you with the poll, but not sure what questions you want asked.

I guess here, I am still new to the MMO genre. I am not sure what everyone means by "auto-attack". Is this where I choose, small, medium, or large based attack, or do I place a combination of moves and the game decides what sequence and or timing to perform.

As a healer, this seems harsh, because sometimes I need to spam healing spells due to our group being creative and trying to beat a really hard monster/mob, knowing we probally would not try if I were not a healer. Will auto-atack diminish this ability? Will it toggle. I am not one that just spams an attack, although I probally could, but this in itself is boring.

If this "auto-attack" were like Ledgend of Legaia whereas I have to choose a combination to equal a large attack, could be interesting. Maybe I am just too new to the scene and don't get it...but then again, I like choice.



In most games "auto-attack" simply means that once you engage an enemy your character starts to automatically swing away with their equipped weapon and you used special abilities or attacks in between. Taking Marauder for example, auto-attack would be kind of equivalent to the game using Light Swing every few seconds while you were free to focus on using other more powerful attacks and abilities whenever you built up the appropriate amount of TP, which if it's anything like FFXI's system, would be gradually built up by your successful auto-attacks.

Of course this is just comparing it to other auto-attack games like FFXI and WoW. FFXIV's system could be wildly different, but if I had to speculate it'll most likely be very close to FFXI's system.
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#4 Apr 02 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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To Wintersage:

Imo he is saying that bosses and stronger monsters will take more strategy to defeat. But for normal mobs it will be easier but not so easy you can just push attack and go afk. I can fight 3 mobs at once on Monk in XI and not need to use any skills to defeat easy prey to decent challenge monsters. How they go about achieving their goal in XIV, I can't say.

To River75:
As for Auto-Attack, you don't control any of the setting up of your special attacks. It is automated, gear, weapon delay, tp, and race/gear/spells speed determine how fast you can fire off hotkeys. Some of the playerbase were asking for an extended battle queue or gambit that would work almost similarly to Legend Of Legaia. But the devs decided to go with Auto attack due to some players wanting it.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2011 1:54am by sandpark
#5 Apr 03 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
Thanks for the clear-up of that. I can see now the difference.
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#6 Apr 03 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would welcome a return to more "FFXI like" battle system. auto-attack in FFXI allowed for communication between players in a party/alliance to set up and perform strategies such as SATA , skillchains, magic-bursts, etc. Combat in FFXIV to me so far seems very "arcadey" and "spammy" if I were to describe it - and I think a lot of this is because of the lack of auto-attack. I just don't feel the same satisfying flow and rhythm in FFXIV combat that you get in FFXI - whenever I'm in a behest or doing leves with a group, etc. it just feels like everyone doing their own thing, a bunch of abilities and flashing lights going off and the mob eventually dying from being zerged.

There's honestly nothing in the battle system of FFXIV that I've seen so far that is as satisfying as seeing the big damage from a successful SATA-weaponskill after a good tank/off-tank setup, a well executed skillchain, or a well-timed magic-burst from FFXI. I know people don't necessarily want to see the game turn into FFXI-2 the sequel, but changing something that worked so well before isn't a good thing if the new thing is inferior.
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#7 Apr 03 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Those well timed SATA, skillchains, and magic burst are not confined to auto attack realms though. Unless you typed new text everytime you did those maneuvers? Usually the strategy would be planned before the fighting began. And party chat macros would relay when to start the timing mechanisms on those. That problem can be fixed with more situational timed ablities added regardless of which battle system used.

An extended battle queue would have let basic attacks have more importance and be less spammy or arcadey as you say it is. And the demolishing of monsters in Behest or anywhere else isn't due to the current ATB battle mechanics. That is due to low monster hp or defense, bad implementation of emnity, and not enough skills that make positioning or timing more important. Many other games allow movement while using skills or attacks even without auto attack. Even with the current system they can make the powerful skills uber and ****. They can even implement weapon delay or tp gain in unision with stamina bar.

I suppose it's pretty obvious im anti auto attack. And if anyone prefers it, I can see your point of view. I played XI for seven years. But if any game despite it's genre removes player input and replaces with it automated systems. And attempts to call it more engaging(as in player input/skill), I have to disagree with that. Auto Attack may seem as something not getting bent out of shape over. But I have read on various websites some players pushing for auto attack, harsh death penalties, one click crafting, AH, rigid strict jobs,etc. And I just don't want to be quiet as the game's freedom becomes completely obliterated istead of slighlty tuned. We have a great themepark game in XI and I love it for what it is. But it is still available to play right? So why are some trying to make this game into the same one? If they discontinued XI then I would say ok I understand that.
Yoshi wants to reinstill the spirit of FF? OK, no FF in the history of FF has copied over a battle system from one title to the next. Instilling FF can be done with lore, introducing familiar jobs, chocobos, airships, moogles, the works.


#8 Apr 03 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
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what bothers me, there going to have an auto attack with a UI Bar that's not optimized for it.

the other thing that bothers me is auto attack is still going to be generic and meh.

Core Issues, Character Class Balancing,the you can do Optimization like auto attack, then content. they need to get there game plan going instead of trying to please the masses.
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#9 Apr 03 2011 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
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FelixValmont wrote:
what bothers me, there going to have an auto attack with a UI Bar that's not optimized for it.

the other thing that bothers me is auto attack is still going to be generic and meh.

Core Issues, Character Class Balancing,the you can do Optimization like auto attack, then content. they need to get there game plan going instead of trying to please the masses.


I think the point is, auto-attack is such an integral change to the system (along with the rest of the changes to the battle system) that it needs to come before class balancing and content.

If 'pleasing the masses' means reducing the erosion of 1 and 2 on my keyboard and introduces a wider variety of actions to be used at any time (you can say it as much as you want against it, but right now spamming is certainly one of the strongest thing you can do).

As it's said many, many times before, they're working on the gameplan and fixing core problems right now. The reason auto-attack is something that's been addressed is because there's a massive thread about it on the forum. They commented on male mithras too recently, do you think theyre working to put them in before fixing the battle system too?
#10 Apr 03 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
Pretty sure it means almost anything that gives XP/SP won't be a situation like now where you might be able to 1-1-1-1-1-1 through the fight. I'm optimistic about the whole thing, but we'll see.
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#11 Apr 03 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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why cant they just use a system that already works, who cares if it the same as every other mmorpg.
#12 Apr 03 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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What I'm getting from this is that they're making auto attack be what it was in FFXI: a way to fill up your TP gauge. And in a forum post, they said they weren't planning on having combat be as slow as FFXI, so I'm looking forward to it.
#13 Apr 03 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
And in a forum post, they said they weren't planning on having combat be as slow as FFXI, so I'm looking forward to it.


inb4 the rage, "it's too fast!"
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#14 Apr 03 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Default
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Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
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#15 Apr 03 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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its not talking about diminishing returns, or some other programming code that makes it impossible to kill something with auto attack. It means that if you're fighting something worthwhile, the rate of damage from auto attack will not kill that mob before it kills you, you will need to use specials.
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#16 Apr 03 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Ba1dw1n wrote:
why cant they just use a system that already works, who cares if it the same as every other mmorpg.

If games were developed like this, we would all still be playing Hoop And Stick with our willow switches. Without experimentation, there is no progress. Some experiments will fail, unfortunately, but without progress there is only stagnation. The MMO genre is becoming saturated; thus, only truly revolutionary games will stand out. Square Enix took a gamble and lost. Fortunately for us, it seems like they are willing to buy in again and give it another shot.

Tacky similes aside, if FFXIV plays just like every other MMO out there now - after all it's been through - all that is going to happen is it will slowly bleed players out as they discover they can get the same experience in more established, more well rounded games.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2011 5:25pm by Hulan
#17 Apr 03 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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The MMO genre is becoming saturated; thus, only truly revolutionary games will stand out.

Rift is a WoW-clone, but got a million subscribers in a month by being polished and very playable.

That's not to say that innovation isn't necessary to move the genre along, but it's also obvious that a game can be very successful by taking the usual conventions and doing them right.
#18 Apr 03 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Rift is a WoW-clone, but got a million subscribers in a month by being polished and very playable.


Source.
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#19 Apr 03 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Wintersage wrote:
I have no problem being a caster. And whacking things in the face with my staff. Or my scepter. Whichever seems appropriate. But the idea that that minute damage I am able to do with an auto-attack with said weapons will diminish over the course of the battle, ending with joke numbers (Alright. Even more joke numbers) to balance an auto-attack...doesn't sit right.


I would have agreed with you... in a game that works like FFXI. However, in a game like FFXIV (or WoW, or most others, for that matter), where your MP and HP is constantly healing, then something should be done to disallow the winning of battles through auto-attack.

If they are going to do diminishing returns (and they probably aren't), then they should make it only start diminishing after a certain number of auto-attacks: this way, you could basically auto-attack about ten times and then use one ability (or, heck, even a TP move by then) to prevent diminishing returns. Additionally, the first few hits after diminishing returns begin could be a very light penalty, just to give the player some extra time.

It doesn't seem so bad to me, although I think the far better solution would be to simply double/triple/whatever monsters' HP; I love longer, ponderous battles anyway. :D
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#20 Apr 03 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Rift is a WoW-clone, but got a million subscribers in a month by being polished and very playable.


Source.


The Rift interview (with IGN) that is probably supplying this information specifically comes with two caveats:

1.) They are not individual players but people with some kind of Rift account (I wasn't really sure what they meant by this).
2.) Rift is still in its free month.

It's foolish to judge the success of something upon its release anyway; if we did, Aion would be super popular, Warhammer would be going strong, and Tabula Rasa would show signs of a "creative" MMO idea working well.
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#21 Apr 03 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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In many MMOs, auto attack is balanced by the sheer fact that it's inefficient to use only auto-attack.

Lets take WoW, for example. Even if you're a melee class in WoW, if you just auto attack an enemy down, if you don't die, you're probably going to end up with a lot less health than you would have if you had used skills. This means you must then rest, thus wasting time, or else you might die from the next fight. Casters in WoW are terrible at melee and have horrible armor, thus meaning they would probably die very easily if they just let enemies whack on them while they melee. In WoW, you use skills not because they're more strategic or anything, but because they make your killing much more efficient. If you don't use skills, you're going to waste more time resting (if not out right die) and you're going to kill things at a much slower rate.

This is the same thing for just about every MMO I've played.
#22 Apr 03 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheLufia wrote:
In many MMOs, auto attack is balanced by the sheer fact that it's inefficient to use only auto-attack.

Lets take WoW, for example. Even if you're a melee class in WoW, if you just auto attack an enemy down, if you don't die, you're probably going to end up with a lot less health than you would have if you had used skills. This means you must then rest, thus wasting time, or else you might die from the next fight. Casters in WoW are terrible at melee and have horrible armor, thus meaning they would probably die very easily if they just let enemies whack on them while they melee. In WoW, you use skills not because they're more strategic or anything, but because they make your killing much more efficient. If you don't use skills, you're going to waste more time resting (if not out right die) and you're going to kill things at a much slower rate.

This is the same thing for just about every MMO I've played.


Yeah, this is essentially what I was talking about, too. Is there really any way SE can't understand such a simple principal? I think they must... but then when I read the words about "concerns over balance of auto-attack," my mind starts to collapse. XD

"Well, we want to implement auto-attack as soon as possible, but early testing shows that it would kill things far too quickly! Look how powerful and fast it is! Look how much damage it does and how it's more efficient than using skills! I just can't fathom a solution to these quandaries and quagmires!"
(Like most of my posts, it helps if you read that quote in the voice of Disney's animated Mad Hatter.)
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#23 Apr 03 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
TheLufia wrote:
In many MMOs, auto attack is balanced by the sheer fact that it's inefficient to use only auto-attack.

Lets take WoW, for example. Even if you're a melee class in WoW, if you just auto attack an enemy down, if you don't die, you're probably going to end up with a lot less health than you would have if you had used skills. This means you must then rest, thus wasting time, or else you might die from the next fight. Casters in WoW are terrible at melee and have horrible armor, thus meaning they would probably die very easily if they just let enemies whack on them while they melee. In WoW, you use skills not because they're more strategic or anything, but because they make your killing much more efficient. If you don't use skills, you're going to waste more time resting (if not out right die) and you're going to kill things at a much slower rate.

This is the same thing for just about every MMO I've played.


Yeah, this is essentially what I was talking about, too. Is there really any way SE can't understand such a simple principal? I think they must... but then when I read the words about "concerns over balance of auto-attack," my mind starts to collapse. XD

"Well, we want to implement auto-attack as soon as possible, but early testing shows that it would kill things far too quickly! Look how powerful and fast it is! Look how much damage it does and how it's more efficient than using skills! I just can't fathom a solution to these quandaries and quagmires!"
(Like most of my posts, it helps if you read that quote in the voice of Disney's animated Mad Hatter.)

QFT
exactly what FFXIV needs, it will require a stat calculation overhaul, but it will bring in alot more players aswell as make the battle system more active.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2011 6:41pm by pixelpop
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#24 Apr 03 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
The MMO genre is becoming saturated; thus, only truly revolutionary games will stand out.

Rift is a WoW-clone, but got a million subscribers in a month by being polished and very playable.


First of all, it has never sold a million copies or ever had a million subs. There are a million Trion accounts, which do not require you to purchase a game, but were required in order to sign up for beta. Many people like myself created multiple accounts to increase our odds of getting into beta (it's tied to an email account, so you can make as many Trion accounts as you have email accounts, and thanks to gmail you can make as many email accounts as you like.) I'd be shocked if there are even half a million active accounts with CD Keys associated to the account.

Bottom line, from some one who is playing Rift (just got done playing about a half hour ago) is that it's a well made WoW clone that probably has little or no staying power. Half of my Rift guild left at or before the end of the first month, and although the ones that stayed probably aren't going to quit any time soon, not many of them are committed to it for the long haul. Once people have all four callings at max level and they've had a chance to fully explore the Soul System to their heart's content, there's not much left to look forward to except a gear grind that's almost identical to WoW.

Quote:
That's not to say that innovation isn't necessary to move the genre along, but it's also obvious that a game can be very successful by taking the usual conventions and doing them right.


Let's wait a few months and see how "successful" RIFT really is before we start drawing conclusions. All we can really conclude so far is that there's such a hunger for something new that people will rush out to buy a game that's not remarkably innovative. That doesn't mean they'll keep playing it long term.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2011 7:00pm by KarlHungis
#25 Apr 03 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a little concerned about how they are going to adjust for things that you need to not be auto-attacking for.
Abilities that can only be used after certain conditions are usually reset if you hit the mob with a normal attack before activating said ability. Auto attack would make that virtually impossible unless they adjust the parameters for the window of opportunity.
I'm hoping they really run this new battle system through exhaustive testing, and not just the usual "no bugs, so let's release and let the players test it for function" we seem to get a lot of in this game.
******** this up could be a very costly mistake at this juncture. /fingerscrossed this Dev team has come to learn the importance of real testing.
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#26 Apr 04 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?

I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically. If you got sleepy with FFXI combat you probably were doing a crappy job. Part of the reason I dislike most MMO combat is because you're constantly doing attacks and it's exhausting. I end up not playing for nearly as long because I'm expending so much effort relative to how much exp I'm getting and wind up getting sick of it much quicker. FFXIV at least tries to fix this by making regular attacks more valuable compared to most MMOs where after the first 10 minutes you mainly just use nothing but skills, but if you want to make regular attacks valuable, why deviate from the already winning formula of doing those attacks automatically and then allowing interruptions with stronger skills when the correct conditions are met?
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#27 Apr 04 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Apologies. I haven't had much time the last day or so to make replies. But that rl tends to sneak up on a person, and stealth-kill.
PerrinofSylph wrote:
Pretty sure it means almost anything that gives XP/SP won't be a situation like now where you might be able to 1-1-1-1-1-1 through the fight. I'm optimistic about the whole thing, but we'll see.

With what you are stating, that is most of the critters some of us might hunt for easy xp/sp. And as I said in OP, I'm not sure how I feel about auto-attack. Specifically, as an answer to those people who say they were upset about the whole "1-1-1-1-1" fight. As you said, we'll see. I'm just less than optimistic. SE needs to deliver on this, as the first major improvement to the systems of XIV since the game came out. But my less-than-optimism outlook stems from what they've shown thus far in regards to player expectations vs. final delivery.
KujaKoF wrote:
its not talking about diminishing returns, or some other programming code that makes it impossible to kill something with auto attack. It means that if you're fighting something worthwhile, the rate of damage from auto attack will not kill that mob before it kills you, you will need to use specials.

Honestly, this is my best-case scenario. And I pray you are right. This, I could live with. I could kill weaker mobs with a scepter to the forehead, but stronger mobs might need some carefully planted fire spells in the ****. This is really what I hope they mean with the vaguely worded description we've gotten thus far.
KaneKitty wrote:
I would have agreed with you... in a game that works like FFXI. However, in a game like FFXIV (or WoW, or most others, for that matter), where your MP and HP is constantly healing, then something should be done to disallow the winning of battles through auto-attack.

At this point, mp and hp aren't "constantly healing" whilst in active mode, and this is a problem. Especially for mages. Mostly because at this point, mp doesn't heal in passive mode, either.
KaneKitty wrote:
If they are going to do diminishing returns (and they probably aren't), then they should make it only start diminishing after a certain number of auto-attacks: this way, you could basically auto-attack about ten times and then use one ability (or, heck, even a TP move by then) to prevent diminishing returns. Additionally, the first few hits after diminishing returns begin could be a very light penalty, just to give the player some extra time.

Because SE isn't known for diminishing returns? But to be perfectly honest, I would even be happy with this. It's reasonable. :D
pixelpop wrote:
exactly what FFXIV needs, it will require a stat calculation overhaul, but it will bring in alot more players aswell as make the battle system more active.

I agree with this as well. I have always been firmly of the opinion that if the stats actually had some heft to them, we would be far more judicial with our allocation. And it's honestly, in my mind, one of the greatest fail attempts in XIV. We have the ability to allocate our characters the numbers we want them to have....it's just too bad they have no significance.
bsphil wrote:
I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically.

Yeah. And I'm still jealous, to this day, about how over-powered a competent pup could be.

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you. I'm just bitter. :D
KaneKitty wrote:
(Like most of my posts, it helps if you read that quote in the voice of Disney's animated Mad Hatter.)

Now this is just cruel. It's like the song I can't get out of my head. Now I can't read any post in a thread without thinking upon this.

You suck. :(
Edit: t's aren't r's. That'll teach me to type in the dark.

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 1:03am by Wintersage
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#28 Apr 05 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?
Try playing DRK..
bsphil wrote:

I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically. If you got sleepy with FFXI combat you probably were doing a crappy job. Part of the reason I dislike most MMO combat is because you're constantly doing attacks and it's exhausting. I end up not playing for nearly as long because I'm expending so much effort relative to how much exp I'm getting and wind up getting sick of it much quicker. FFXIV at least tries to fix this by making regular attacks more valuable compared to most MMOs where after the first 10 minutes you mainly just use nothing but skills, but if you want to make regular attacks valuable, why deviate from the already winning formula of doing those attacks automatically and then allowing interruptions with stronger skills when the correct conditions are met?

That's something I wish not see ever again in my life.. can you imagine that in reality..? *Battling a giant dragon* "Oh wait.. gotta change my clothes before doing this move..!" "Sure..."

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 3:24pm by KaineGestalt
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#29 Apr 05 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?

I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically. If you got sleepy with FFXI combat you probably were doing a crappy job. Part of the reason I dislike most MMO combat is because you're constantly doing attacks and it's exhausting. I end up not playing for nearly as long because I'm expending so much effort relative to how much exp I'm getting and wind up getting sick of it much quicker. FFXIV at least tries to fix this by making regular attacks more valuable compared to most MMOs where after the first 10 minutes you mainly just use nothing but skills, but if you want to make regular attacks valuable, why deviate from the already winning formula of doing those attacks automatically and then allowing interruptions with stronger skills when the correct conditions are met?


How? it was boring, just stand there, auto attack and spam skills when you had TP, that was boring, there where no real mechanics or gimmicks to fights(Most i know some did had some) you can randomly look in YT a video of a party of lvl 5 fighting some red con mob and it would look the same as a party of lvl 500 fighting a boss, just stand in place, cast cast cast profit.

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#30 Apr 05 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Wintersage wrote:
And how would they implement that? I fear diminishing returns. And I pray I am wrong.


I realize scaremongering strums up the conversation, but if they implement diminishing returns on auto-attack, I'll eat a toxic FFXIV collector's mug. That's just reading it way too literally.

What the developer is trying to convey is that the system will be engaging, that you can't just switch on auto-attack and "phone it in." That was the idea with the current combat system, and they are planning to preserve the concept even with an auto-attack implementation.
#31 Apr 06 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
At this point, mp and hp aren't "constantly healing" whilst in active mode, and this is a problem. Especially for mages. Mostly because at this point, mp doesn't heal in passive mode, either.


If yo had played the game recently you would know that MP does recharge in passive mode now.
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#32 Apr 06 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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KaineGestalt wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?
Try playing DRK..
I did. Thanks for assuming I didn't though. If you're getting bored playing DRK you're doing a sh*tty job.

Ostia wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?

I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically. If you got sleepy with FFXI combat you probably were doing a crappy job. Part of the reason I dislike most MMO combat is because you're constantly doing attacks and it's exhausting. I end up not playing for nearly as long because I'm expending so much effort relative to how much exp I'm getting and wind up getting sick of it much quicker. FFXIV at least tries to fix this by making regular attacks more valuable compared to most MMOs where after the first 10 minutes you mainly just use nothing but skills, but if you want to make regular attacks valuable, why deviate from the already winning formula of doing those attacks automatically and then allowing interruptions with stronger skills when the correct conditions are met?


How? it was boring, just stand there, auto attack and spam skills when you had TP, that was boring, there where no real mechanics or gimmicks to fights(Most i know some did had some) you can randomly look in YT a video of a party of lvl 5 fighting some red con mob and it would look the same as a party of lvl 500 fighting a boss, just stand in place, cast cast cast profit.
Once again, it sounds like you were just a ****** player. Don't blame the game for that though. That was all your fault for not keeping up with your duties.



Edited, Apr 6th 2011 4:56pm by bsphil
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#33 Apr 06 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
KaineGestalt wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?
Try playing DRK..
I did. Thanks for assuming I didn't though. If you're getting bored playing DRK you're doing a sh*tty job.

Ostia wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Anything but FFXI Battle system, that system made me sleepy <.<
How?

I got exhausted from playing PUP just because there was TOO much to do, and that's even using Windower and SpellCast to handle all of the gear swapping automatically. If you got sleepy with FFXI combat you probably were doing a crappy job. Part of the reason I dislike most MMO combat is because you're constantly doing attacks and it's exhausting. I end up not playing for nearly as long because I'm expending so much effort relative to how much exp I'm getting and wind up getting sick of it much quicker. FFXIV at least tries to fix this by making regular attacks more valuable compared to most MMOs where after the first 10 minutes you mainly just use nothing but skills, but if you want to make regular attacks valuable, why deviate from the already winning formula of doing those attacks automatically and then allowing interruptions with stronger skills when the correct conditions are met?


How? it was boring, just stand there, auto attack and spam skills when you had TP, that was boring, there where no real mechanics or gimmicks to fights(Most i know some did had some) you can randomly look in YT a video of a party of lvl 5 fighting some red con mob and it would look the same as a party of lvl 500 fighting a boss, just stand in place, cast cast cast profit.
Once again, it sounds like you were just a sh*tty player. Don't blame the game for that though. That was all your fault for not keeping up with your duties.


Well, to be fair, it's not like DRK has access job abilities, absorb-spells, dark magic, and a sub-job.
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#34 Apr 06 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Even if you did use your abilities wisely in XI, that didn't change the fact that the WAY you used your abilities was mundane. The personal strategy for killing one monster was virtually identical to the strategy for killing any other.
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#35 Apr 06 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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BlackstarrStrife wrote:
Quote:
At this point, mp and hp aren't "constantly healing" whilst in active mode, and this is a problem. Especially for mages. Mostly because at this point, mp doesn't heal in passive mode, either.


If yo had played the game recently you would know that MP does recharge in passive mode now.

Alright. Going to have to admit that I am covered with /blush on this one. I should have remembered that, as it made quite a stir when it was implemented. It's just that my woman, who still plays on a daily basis, tends to prefer jobs like PUG so I tend to be a bit biased when it comes to more recent info. My apologies.
Forceofmeh wrote:
Wintersage wrote:
And how would they implement that? I fear diminishing returns. And I pray I am wrong.

I realize scaremongering strums up the conversation, but if they implement diminishing returns on auto-attack, I'll eat a toxic FFXIV collector's mug. That's just reading it way too literally.

Scaremongering is it? That's what you think I started a thread about? Ok. Perhaps you will correct my ignorance, but exactly which system has been implemented since last september that actually meets player approval? No, let's make it easier. Which system have they introduced that's even in the right ball-park?

I honestly feel that SE has certainly earned my skepticism regarding future systems. Especially when they append them with things like:
Quote:
but we will make sure it’s balanced so you can’t win a fight just by using auto-attack.

But, if on the horrid chance that I am right, you'll post pics of deep-throating the CE mug, right? :D
Forceofmeh wrote:
What the developer is trying to convey is that the system will be engaging, that you can't just switch on auto-attack and "phone it in." That was the idea with the current combat system, and they are planning to preserve the concept even with an auto-attack implementation.

And again, I respond with "I pray you are right". It's just that I see so much room for one of the most basic core gameplay systems to be FUBARED, that the quasi-reassuring statements we've read thus-far aren't by any means reassuring to me. But a lot of that stems from the lack of detail that has been released.
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#36Ostia, Posted: Apr 06 2011 at 11:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That was my point more or less, to me combat was boring in FFXI, as opposed to how combat was in WOW for example, the way a raid would beat myrmidon was totally different than the way you would beat hodir, or thodir, or freya <.<
#37 Apr 07 2011 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Even if you did use your abilities wisely in XI, that didn't change the fact that the WAY you used your abilities was mundane. The personal strategy for killing one monster was virtually identical to the strategy for killing any other.


That was my point more or less, to me combat was boring in FFXI, as opposed to how combat was in WOW for example, the way a raid would beat myrmidon was totally different than the way you would beat hodir, or thodir, or freya <.<


I honestly can't compare endgame or instanced fights in FFXI to WOW, but there were many of the "big" battles of FFXI that required innovative group and personal strategies. The problem is that many of them were rarely attempted (e.g., BCNMs that didn't scale rewards to the cost of the attempt), and often the group strategy was more important than personal strategy. That adds some noteworthy challenge to the party leader's role, but doesn't do much for the others who have to basically follow orders with minimal thought.

However, overall FFXI did a really good job with the "important" fights-- there was just potential to do much better. For example, COP had some fantastic battle designs.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Apr 07 2011 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Well the 4 Salvage areas required a lot of strategy and coordination. Each zone had a mega boss that had to be handled differently, as well as a multitude of NMs that required careful planning.

but yeah aside from that, everything was either kite/nuke or straight tank with the only real tactics being "stun X spell/TP move". on the other hand, i felt like HNMs had enough variance in behavior to make most fights feel different.

there's some more strategy involved with abyssea now, but its sort of all beside the point, FFXI is just an epilogue now.
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