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The new Aggro-IconFollow

#1 Apr 06 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Check it out
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/attachment.php?attachmentid=43&d=1302071823

It was posted here by Foxclon, a Japanese community rep.

I think it looks better and helpful with the mob level there.

What do you guys think?

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 4:25am by TerraSonicX
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#2 Apr 06 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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is it just me or does the agro icon also have the mobs rank by it, like an actual NUMBER!!??
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#3 Apr 06 2011 at 2:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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tpgsoldier wrote:
is it just me or does the agro icon also have the mobs rank by it, like an actual NUMBER!!??


Yep, the Devs said they were going to implement that.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 4:34am by TerraSonicX
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#4 Apr 06 2011 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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TerraSonicX wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
is it just me or does the agro icon also have the mobs rank by it, like an actual NUMBER!!??


Yep, the Devs said they were going to implement that.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 4:34am by TerraSonicX


That makes me very happy in da pants!
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#5 Apr 06 2011 at 3:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Just let me turn the icons/numbers off when I don't care to know or already know this information, it's not too much to ask. I know they've said they will let us toggle the aggro icon, but now they've added to it..

It's not encouraging that they couldn't bother to come up with something that looked more professional (they just made it smaller), but as long as I can get it off my damned screen that'll work for me.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 5:06am by Coyohma
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#6 Apr 06 2011 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
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Coyohma wrote:
Just let me turn the icons/numbers off when I don't care to know or already know this information, it's not too much to ask. I know they've said they will let us toggle the aggro icon, but now they've added to it..

It's not encouraging that they couldn't bother to come up with something that looked more professional (they just made it smaller), but as long as I can get it off my damned screen that'll work for me.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 5:06am by Coyohma


Your logic is pretty flawed here. Just because they're adding to and improving it doesn't mean it's not going to be toggleable. I think it looks much better personally.

However, I do hope they'll let me remove the icon next to the name and just keep it on the thing that appears when targetting, that'd be perfect for me.
#7 Apr 06 2011 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
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Aggro mobs still on bargain sale!
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#8 Apr 06 2011 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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Dlaqev wrote:
Your logic is pretty flawed here. Just because they're adding to and improving it doesn't mean it's not going to be toggleable. I think it looks much better personally.

However, I do hope they'll let me remove the icon next to the name and just keep it on the thing that appears when targetting, that'd be perfect for me.

I actually am assuming we will be able to toggle it all off, but assuming logic with SE and this game... Perilous!
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#9 Apr 06 2011 at 4:17 AM Rating: Default
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Dlaqev wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
Just let me turn the icons/numbers off when I don't care to know or already know this information, it's not too much to ask. I know they've said they will let us toggle the aggro icon, but now they've added to it..

It's not encouraging that they couldn't bother to come up with something that looked more professional (they just made it smaller), but as long as I can get it off my damned screen that'll work for me.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 5:06am by Coyohma


Your logic is pretty flawed here. Just because they're adding to and improving it doesn't mean it's not going to be toggleable. I think it looks much better personally.

However, I do hope they'll let me remove the icon next to the name and just keep it on the thing that appears when targetting, that'd be perfect for me.


If the little ball is such an eye sore then there is an easy way to remove it, just toggle off the mob name and it should all disapear.
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#10 Apr 06 2011 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Looks great!
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#11 Apr 06 2011 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
I like! Much less IN YO FACE!!!11!1

I suppose it's probably inconsequential that the aggro icon seems to overwrite the mobs con color if it's aggro, given that it now shows the actual level.
#12 Apr 06 2011 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
Dlaqev wrote:
Coyohma wrote:
Just let me turn the icons/numbers off when I don't care to know or already know this information, it's not too much to ask. I know they've said they will let us toggle the aggro icon, but now they've added to it..

It's not encouraging that they couldn't bother to come up with something that looked more professional (they just made it smaller), but as long as I can get it off my damned screen that'll work for me.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 5:06am by Coyohma


Your logic is pretty flawed here. Just because they're adding to and improving it doesn't mean it's not going to be toggleable. I think it looks much better personally.

However, I do hope they'll let me remove the icon next to the name and just keep it on the thing that appears when targetting, that'd be perfect for me.


If the little ball is such an eye sore then there is an easy way to remove it, just toggle off the mob name and it should all disapear.


I wouldn't say it was an eye-sore and I certainly prefer it to the last one (even then I didn't find that to be THAT bad), it's just personal preference.
#13 Apr 06 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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I inlcuded your post on the quote because I was just reinforcing your point of view.

In my opinion the OP is just QQing, there are much more important things in the game than the way an icon is presented.

For the first time since CE release I'm having second thoughs about the game and not because of the quality (although theis influences the reason why) but because of the ammount og people populating the servers. This has been much more noticable since the game came back up after the 2 weeks down.
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#14 Apr 06 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh really? Perhaps I'll log on and have a looksy then too!
#15 Apr 06 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriously what difference does this make?
They're tweaking something that still looks bad and nobody wanted to see in the first place.
#16 Apr 06 2011 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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seiferdincht wrote:
Seriously what difference does this make?
They're tweaking something that still looks bad and nobody wanted to see in the first place.

I wanted to see it.

And I don't think it looks bad.


But yes, I hope they hurry up and bring the important changes soon, this wait is getting retarded and Uldah is getting emptier every day.
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#17 Apr 06 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Looks much better. Still, I'm glad we will be able to toggle it ON/OFF
#18 Apr 06 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok so they shrank the icon and added mob ranks to them. I dont really care about that and think that there are more important things to focus on in the game. Furthermore, doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.
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#19 Apr 06 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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moemoe wrote:
Ok so they shrank the icon and added mob ranks to them. I dont really care about that and think that there are more important things to focus on in the game. Furthermore, doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.
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#20 Apr 06 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Ilean wrote:
moemoe wrote:
Ok so they shrank the icon and added mob ranks to them. I dont really care about that and think that there are more important things to focus on in the game. Furthermore, doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.


Different strokes for different folks I guess. If they give us the option to toggle the icons on/off then I will have no real complaints. However, I do still feel that this game is getting easier with successive patches and I find myself missing the challenges of FFXI. This doesn't mean that I do not like the game though. I have enjoyed the game since CE release and have appreciated most of the tweaks that they've added. I am just hoping that they don't go so far as to take away the challenging aspects of the game.
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#21 Apr 06 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Ilean wrote:
moemoe wrote:
doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.


So telling monsters' behaviour and level at a glance isn't easier? What about telling their weaknesses as well? What about highlighting which set abilities the player uses are most effective? What about pointing in the direction of the best leveling areas?

Now I'm not saying any of this will ever be implemented (at least I sure would hope not! XD), but I am saying that the difference between "convenient" and "easy" is, especially in RPGs where knowledge of stats, skills, and types should come in to play often, extremely difficult to delineate.
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#22 Apr 06 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:

So telling monsters' behaviour and level at a glance isn't easier? What about telling their weaknesses as well? What about highlighting which set abilities the player uses are most effective? What about pointing in the direction of the best leveling areas?

Now I'm not saying any of this will ever be implemented (at least I sure would hope not! XD), but I am saying that the difference between "convenient" and "easy" is, especially in RPGs where knowledge of stats, skills, and types should come in to play often, extremely difficult to delineate.

Nope, knowing if it aggros and its level doesn't make it any easier or harder to kill.

Knowing stats, etc. is a different game, XI used to tell you if a mob had high defense or high evasion and it barely mattered. I don't see it being too different here.
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#23 Apr 06 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's a lot less obnoxious and will actually make sense to new people coming into the game as opposed to that color coding system. The mob's level as part of the icon makes it more fluid.


Some of you folks really need to lighten up a bit with the criticism on the "ezmode" things being put in. While I agree that the game should present enough of a challenge as to keep the interest of those who like to push limits, I don't agree that it should extend to every single facet of the game at every level. It looks to me like they are adopting more of a "help the player along" approach as opposed to the "leave the player in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean" approach they used with XI.

Wouldn't you rather, I don't know, PLAY the game as opposed to playing the wiki?
#24 Apr 06 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
They did state that they would add a toggle option. (I'm not finding the source for this easily.)

But with the actual mob level included, I will be leaving it on.

Anyone still wanting to turn it off?
#25 Apr 06 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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I think it looks pretty good. It's not so OUT THERE! But lets hope the toggle feature is implemented.
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#26 Apr 06 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not so much the icons as the numbers, I suppose... sure, it may be convenient to see concrete numerical data above monsters' heads, but the gradual implementation of decidedly "game" elements is really turning me off:

Exclamation points of people's heads, mob levels on their names... I just think that an important way to become lost within a game is to keep everything "in character," so to speak, in order to contribute to a more seamless immersion. I am no doubt more sensitive to this than some - call me an aesthetite if you wish, I'll wear it happily.

This, of course, means that I like spell descriptions along the lines of "Gathers and releases the elements of fire upon a foe" more than "Shoots the player's target for 459-474 Fire-based damage." This also means I liked hearing, "The rarab seems incredibly tough!" more than, "This is a level 26, aggressive rarab."

I am neither decrying the system nor prophesying doomsday, so one needn't feel as though they must assert the superiority of clear, in-game information. I am just watching a game as it slowly decides to present itself as a game rather than as a world; please don't take offence: I do understand that I am in the minority already.
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#27 Apr 06 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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I like it, I think its more welcoming to newer players, and makes for all around better gameplay

Most people against it seem to be so because of immersion factors, and personally I think the genre is moving far far away from that kind of thing, if it was ever close to begin with. Is seeing a mobs level any less immersive than seeing its health bar, your own health bar? I get what KaneKitty is saying, that they could go about it another way, but in my opinion why mess around. Knowing specifically what level a green mob doesn't change the fact that it was green and I knew I could kill it anyways.
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#28 Apr 06 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
They did state that they would add a toggle option. (I'm not finding the source for this easily.)

But with the actual mob level included, I will be leaving it on.

Anyone still wanting to turn it off?

I'm all for it. I'm color blind so that red / green stuff really got on my nerves. Then they talked about how deep the color was relating to party difficulty or something.. I was about ready to scream.

The only plus was that I figured I could play Archer without having to pull because my group wouldn't want me bringing back green mobs.
#29 Apr 06 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Love the new look; less intrusive and ugly than the last version, and it gives more information so we can predict the xp/sp of a kill before having to kill said creature -- I'm down as fasr as design stand point goes.

While I do understand some people may hate it on a purist and roleplayer point of view, I'm really wondering in what category does the majority of the players who haven't bailed from the game fall into --- and what kind of player are Square making those changes and features for?
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#30 Apr 06 2011 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Ilean wrote:
moemoe wrote:
Ok so they shrank the icon and added mob ranks to them. I dont really care about that and think that there are more important things to focus on in the game. Furthermore, doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.



The definition of "convenient" according to Merriam Webster: suited to personal comfort or to easy performance
#31 Apr 06 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Default
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Mithsavvy wrote:
Ilean wrote:
moemoe wrote:
Ok so they shrank the icon and added mob ranks to them. I dont really care about that and think that there are more important things to focus on in the game. Furthermore, doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.



The definition of "convenient" according to Merriam Webster: suited to personal comfort or to easy performance


lol. Guess we should have looked this up earlier; could have /threaded five hours ago!
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#32 Apr 07 2011 at 5:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Ilean wrote:
moemoe wrote:
doesn't the whole concept of the "aggro" icon make the game kind of EZMODE anyway? I personally liked the challenge of discovering which mobs to avoid as opposed to the game holding my hand through the danger. This game needs to be made better, not easier.

And yet most of the people will simply go to YG and look up if a mob aggros, instead of willingly go take a 4k hit in the ***, I don't see anything wrong with the game giving you a more accurate idea of how hard a mob is, or if it will attack you.

More convenient isn't the same as easier.


So telling monsters' behaviour and level at a glance isn't easier? What about telling their weaknesses as well? What about highlighting which set abilities the player uses are most effective? What about pointing in the direction of the best leveling areas?

Now I'm not saying any of this will ever be implemented (at least I sure would hope not! XD), but I am saying that the difference between "convenient" and "easy" is, especially in RPGs where knowledge of stats, skills, and types should come in to play often, extremely difficult to delineate.

Well that I think wouldn't have to be shown at glance.. like you need to use an ability or magic to know that..

Will we finally get a Scan/Libra magic in FFXIV..? :D It would be more faithful to the other FF single player games if it was implemented.. don't you agree..?
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#33 Apr 07 2011 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
KaineGestalt wrote:
Will we finally get a Scan/Libra magic in FFXIV..? :D It would be more faithful to the other FF single player games if it was implemented.. don't you agree..?


I like the idea of Scan/Libra.
#34 Apr 07 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Exclamation points of people's heads, mob levels on their names... I just think that an important way to become lost within a game is to keep everything "in character," so to speak, in order to contribute to a more seamless immersion. I am no doubt more sensitive to this than some - call me an aesthetite if you wish, I'll wear it happily.


This is the other thing I see thrown around a lot but it's a lot less obnoxious than other games. After a comment from Osarion I decided to jump into the game again to refresh my knowledge and it's really nowhere near the level of obnoxious that people seemed to think it would be. It was actually very elegantly done, as is everything that SE seems to do with things graphically speaking.

The tiny cloud icon with an exclamation point that quietly says "I have something I need help with" as opposed to the blaring large yellow straight on top of NPC in other games is actually quite inviting and not at all the horrible element everyone was so afraid of.

This "immersion" usually comes because there is an exciting world you are a part of and performing tasks for, not because all the NPCs are lifeless and you have to stumble around looking for something to do. Immersion is talking to someone who needs you to go clear out some monsters who are keeping the workers from building a bridge. Granted, they could have taken it further with an actual cut scene of the workers coming and working on the bridge as you finished the task because they were watching the mighty warrior work or something to that effect, but even lacking that, that's what creates immersion. It's not seeing a bunch of random characters that may or may not have something worthwhile to say to you just so that SE could fill space.
#35 Apr 07 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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To me, immersion comes from carefully crafted environments with well-rendered soundscapes and active NPCs. I felt a lot more immersion exploring Red Cloud Mesa or Dun Morogh in WoW than anything in Eorzea (FFXIV had me stunned by eye candy but that's it). The turning windmills in Red Cloud Mesa with the beautifully done mechanical sound effects and moving shadows while taurens clod by, to and fro. The shining snowscapes of Dun Morough with animals scattering around, leaving tracks, fires dancing and crackling in snowcovered dwarven homes. The crimson sun falling into the beautiful DX11 ocean in Westfall, seen through waving fields of grass.

An immersive environment will make you forget about how ridiculous the big glowing question mark above an NPC's head is.

FFXIV looks good, but feels phony, lifeless. No amount of HUD minimalizing will fix that.

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#36 Apr 07 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Well that I think wouldn't have to be shown at glance.. like you need to use an ability or magic to know that..

Will we finally get a Scan/Libra magic in FFXIV..? :D It would be more faithful to the other FF single player games if it was implemented.. don't you agree..?

This would be a good solution that wouldn't bother me in the least. At least the player would have to make some kind of effort to make the game a little easier and know which mobs to avoid.
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#37 Apr 07 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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moemoe wrote:
Well that I think wouldn't have to be shown at glance.. like you need to use an ability or magic to know that..

Will we finally get a Scan/Libra magic in FFXIV..? :D It would be more faithful to the other FF single player games if it was implemented.. don't you agree..?

This would be a good solution that wouldn't bother me in the least. At least the player would have to make some kind of effort to make the game a little easier and know which mobs to avoid.


Why complicate it like that though? The majority of people would just scan everything anyways. See a cool new mob, scan it. Picking a target to kill, scan to make sure its a high green mob and not a low green. is knowing what level the dodo you're running past really hurting your game experience? "checking" mobs was horribly outdated about a year after FFXI came out, theres a good reason nobody does it anymore.
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#38 Apr 07 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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Fixed the quote.

I agree 100%, this immersion thing I don't get either, for me immersion is what I get from reading a good book, the details and particular way of speaking of a character which makes you 'know him' and sort of understand how he sees the world, and even guess what his opinion would be about X event.

People who are against the ! icon ignore the fact that you already have a GUI on top of the game that's far more intrusive than a ! over an NPC's head, besides, not having it leaves you with at least these choices:
1. Speak to every NPC in town, 99% of them giving you the same inane two lines of text you already got if you ever spoke to them, wasting a huge amount of time in the process.
2. Ask other people which NPCs give quests, unless you are in a roleplay server/linkshell you won't get very immersive responses.
3. Hit the wiki! Immersipedia FTW!

I just don't think people should be looking for immersion on MMORPGs, because I honestly don't think it can be achieved by non story-driven content, unless the machines conquer us and grow us for our body energy.

For a great immersive game experience you guys should check out The Witcher (game and books).

Torrence wrote:
This is the other thing I see thrown around a lot but it's a lot less obnoxious than other games. After a comment from Osarion I decided to jump into the game again to refresh my knowledge and it's really nowhere near the level of obnoxious that people seemed to think it would be. It was actually very elegantly done, as is everything that SE seems to do except for the first aggro icon with things graphically speaking.

The tiny cloud icon with an exclamation point that quietly says "I have something I need help with" as opposed to the blaring large yellow straight on top of NPC in other games is actually quite inviting and not at all the horrible element everyone was so afraid of.

This "immersion" usually comes because there is an exciting world you are a part of and performing tasks for, not because all the NPCs are lifeless and you have to stumble around looking for something to do. Immersion is talking to someone who needs you to go clear out some monsters who are keeping the workers from building a bridge. Granted, they could have taken it further with an actual cut scene of the workers coming and working on the bridge as you finished the task because they were watching the mighty warrior work or something to that effect, but even lacking that, that's what creates immersion. It's not seeing a bunch of random characters that may or may not have something worthwhile to say to you just so that SE could fill space.

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#39 Apr 07 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
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This icon wll work ok. But it does break immersion as someone said. If immersion is not important, then why stop with these icons as they are now?
Personally I think physically checking the monster is more tasteful. But yea, why stop there?
Show us our enemies:
Hit Points
Magic Points
Elemental weakness
If their weak to pierce,slash, blunt
Agro or Don't agro
Link or don't link
Powerful Skills and their affects
Number the monsters, so when fighting herds everyone targets same one
Monster immunities or resistances
Respawn

Or would this be immersion breaking for you? To me it is if all this info is just given on a silver platter. This is why I don't like the aggro icon. How would monster encounters be heart poundingly new or require learning their intricacies if you know everything already?

I personally would either like a system where you can make comments on monsters and share those points of interest with friends. Or maybe a class like scholar or beastmaster that would learn the intricacies of a monsters and have the ablility to show the party those values. These types of things would give players a goal to really dig for knowledge and help their parties to plan strategically.

My idea on comments would work just like a comment in Microsoft excel. You place comment you made about the monster in a hidden datalog. Every monster has an icon with no information visible. You click on or check the monster. And comments on monster values are shown and sharable.

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 12:13pm by sandpark

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 12:25pm by sandpark
#40 Apr 07 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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yfaithfully wrote:
The turning windmills in Red Cloud Mesa with the beautifully done mechanical sound effects and moving shadows while taurens clod by, to and fro. The shining snowscapes of Dun Morough with animals scattering around, leaving tracks, fires dancing and crackling in snowcovered dwarven homes. The crimson sun falling into the beautiful DX11 ocean in Westfall, seen through waving fields of grass.


It's a shame all those "snowcovered dwarven homes" are the same copy-pasted interior over and over again, just like the caves, the inns, and most of the other houses. Things also start to lose their immersive appeal when I keep seeing South-Park-themed NPCs; nonsensical fast-food containers floating in the water; hobos "hilariously" begging for hamburgers; and a player drive by on a stupid motorcycle with a licence plate that reads "PWN." Yeah, beautiful... >_>

There's a lot more to consider than an isolated plateau or a beach with a nice camera angle; WoW has anything but quiet dignity, otherwise I'd be playing it now.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#41 Apr 07 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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401 posts
Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Exclamation points of people's heads, mob levels on their names... I just think that an important way to become lost within a game is to keep everything "in character," so to speak, in order to contribute to a more seamless immersion. I am no doubt more sensitive to this than some - call me an aesthetite if you wish, I'll wear it happily.


This is the other thing I see thrown around a lot but it's a lot less obnoxious than other games. After a comment from Osarion I decided to jump into the game again to refresh my knowledge and it's really nowhere near the level of obnoxious that people seemed to think it would be. It was actually very elegantly done, as is everything that SE seems to do with things graphically speaking.

The tiny cloud icon with an exclamation point that quietly says "I have something I need help with" as opposed to the blaring large yellow straight on top of NPC in other games is actually quite inviting and not at all the horrible element everyone was so afraid of.

This "immersion" usually comes because there is an exciting world you are a part of and performing tasks for, not because all the NPCs are lifeless and you have to stumble around looking for something to do. Immersion is talking to someone who needs you to go clear out some monsters who are keeping the workers from building a bridge. Granted, they could have taken it further with an actual cut scene of the workers coming and working on the bridge as you finished the task because they were watching the mighty warrior work or something to that effect, but even lacking that, that's what creates immersion. It's not seeing a bunch of random characters that may or may not have something worthwhile to say to you just so that SE could fill space.


Absolutely agreed, and well put. I was in the camp that loathed the idea of marking quest indicators in game, when it actually happened, it didn't look bad at all, and in no way hindered my game experience. The new aggro marking with level display looks to be done very well, and stating an actual number as opposed to a range based off color is a plus in my book. I for one don't need an aggro indicator (I have a pretty good feel of what aggroes by now) but for new players its nice to avoid a trial and error death without that information.
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#42 Apr 07 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Every game should have a Demon's Souls comment system, it's awesome.
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/316

I think that the questions SE wants answered with the new level + aggro icon are:
How much of a chance to kill this monster I have?
How much SP/EXP will this moster give me?
Will this monster attack me?

sandpark wrote:
This icon wll work ok. But it does break immersion as someone said. If immersion is not important, then why stop with these icons as they are now?
Personally I think physically checking the monster is more tasteful. But yea, why stop there?
Show us our enemies:
Hit Points
Magic Points
Elemental weakness
If their weak to pierce,slash, blunt
Agro or Don't agro
Link or don't link
Powerful Skills and their affects
Number the monsters, so when fighting herds everyone targets same one
Monster immunities or resistances
Respawn

Or would this be immersion breaking for you? To me it is if all this info is just given on a silver platter. This is why I don't like the aggro icon. How would monster encounters be heart poundingly new or require learning their intricacies if you know everything already?

I personally would either like a system where you can make comments on monsters and share those points of interest with friends. Or maybe a class like scholar or beastmaster that would learn the intricacies of a monsters and have the ablility to show the party those values. These types of things would give players a goal to really dig for knowledge and help their parties to plan strategically.

Edited, Apr 7th 2011 12:13pm by sandpark

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#43 Apr 07 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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175 posts
I've made a thread in the feedback forum about my idea with a little example of what Scan or Libra in FFXIV would be like..
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#44 Apr 07 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

It's a shame all those "snowcovered dwarven homes" are the same copy-pasted interior over and over again, just like the caves, the inns, and most of the other houses.


That was true 6 years ago in vanilla when mmos were just emerging, but not now that the world has been completely overhauled and certainly not in the expansions since vanilla. I could also argue that you can't even go IN anything in XIV. You can look at the outside of a tower. It's a pretty tower, but still just the outside.


Quote:
Things also start to lose their immersive appeal when I keep seeing South-Park-themed NPCs; nonsensical fast-food containers floating in the water; hobos "hilariously" begging for hamburgers; and a player drive by on a stupid motorcycle with a licence plate that reads "PWN." Yeah, beautiful... >_>


So, for you, nods to things like South Park and Popeye are breaking points, as well as people enjoying motorcycles? I guess they annoy you in real life as well. I like to look at other mounts - it's a cool addition to the game to have personal travel methods and have some of them exclusive to certain crafts. I mean, in XI we all wanted to see what colors of chocobo other people had, and that's a heck of a lot sillier than folks riding motorcycles which actually exist.

I'll tell you what is immersive about that game aside from the things that were mentioned - it's ALIVE. And it's so alive, that if you are paying attention you will notice the environment change as the years go on, and I'm not just talking about phasing. In Stormwind there are a couple kids running around, and for the longest time the boy had the girl's doll and wouldn't give it back. This expansion? The tables have turned and now she has his toy gorilla and is teasing him in exactly the same way. I expect we'll see them dating soon enough.

It's little attentions to detail like that which makes the world immersive and lets you see that there are devs who love what they have crafted and want to see it grow. The people living there, live there. They don't just stand around waiting for you to click on them for their 1 line of nonsense text.

Really, the WoW bashing really needs to stop. I took to heart a comment Osarion made in another thread regarding my knowledge of the game (XIV) in its current state and he was correct in that I hadn't picked it up in recent weeks and therefore there were gaps in my knowledge. I'd have to say that a good portion of you who bash WoW suffer from the same issue. You are complaining about things from vanilla that no longer exist, and frankly this expansion seems to have taken a page out of the XI handbook in regards to time sinks and making it no longer "faceroll 5 mans for a week for full epics in your quest greens".

Immersion is a living world you are a part of. They accomplished it with RPGs on the freaking SNES - they can accomplish it here too. They just need to, I guess stop worrying so much about the technology and worry more about what makes us interested in the game in the first place.
#45 Apr 07 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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3,530 posts
Torrence wrote:
Quote:

It's a shame all those "snowcovered dwarven homes" are the same copy-pasted interior over and over again, just like the caves, the inns, and most of the other houses.


That was true 6 years ago in vanilla when mmos were just emerging, but not now that the world has been completely overhauled


That's not true; I played WoW a week ago; they're still the same, copy-pasted houses as they always were. "Overhaul" is the wrong word; I went back to WoW expecting one, but more than half of the zones are the same as they always were, and many of the ones that have been "overhauled" boast only have a few superficial changes on small areas of the map. The biggest changes take the form of useless substitutions: they flooded a desert, then deserted a swamp; they burned a forest, but then just forested Desolace. All the core elements are just as they always were, and the quests as skippable as ever.

You also talk of "attentions to detail," but why does almost all of my gear clip through a different piece? Why do my shoulders stretch impossibly from my body when I cast a buff? Why is every crafting animation I do the same, as I simply mash my hands together, the alchemy bottles sliding through each other? Why does my bowstring stretch through my face? Why does my ram, when it charges or jumps, move its face through its own neck?

I could go on for much longer. Let's not talk of WoW's "attentions to detail."
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#46 Apr 07 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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213 posts
/laugh at people who want it and think it's a great idea.
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#47 Apr 07 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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557 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
It's a shame all those "snowcovered dwarven homes" are the same copy-pasted interior over and over again, just like the caves, the inns, and most of the other houses.

I agree, that is a shame.

KaneKitty wrote:
Things also start to lose their immersive appeal when I keep seeing South-Park-themed NPCs; nonsensical fast-food containers floating in the water; hobos "hilariously" begging for hamburgers; and a player drive by on a stupid motorcycle with a licence plate that reads "PWN."

Many of those things are kinda annoying, I agree.

KaneKitty wrote:
There's a lot more to consider than an isolated plateau or a beach with a nice camera angle; WoW has anything but quiet dignity, otherwise I'd be playing it now.

Sure, but the point isn't that "WoW is the be all and end all of immersive environments." Quite the contrary--it's that even an old, oft-maligned Western MMO like WoW has more immersive environments than FFXIV, despite its obvious shortcomings.
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#48 Apr 07 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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yfaithfully wrote:
even an old, oft-maligned Western MMO like WoW has more immersive environments than FFXIV, despite its obvious shortcomings.

QFT

And it has NOTHING to do with the GUI or aggro icons.
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#49 Apr 07 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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2,010 posts
Quote:

You also talk of "attentions to detail," but why does almost all of my gear clip through a different piece? Why do my shoulders stretch impossibly from my body when I cast a buff? Why is every crafting animation I do the same, as I simply mash my hands together, the alchemy bottles sliding through each other? Why does my bowstring stretch through my face? Why does my ram, when it charges or jumps, move its face through its own neck?



I don't really know what you mean with gear clipping through to a different piece, shoulders stretching impossibly, bowstring through your face and rams face through neck but all of that sounds like graphical glitches that aren't part of the game. My armor looks fine, my mounts don't scrunch up on itself, and all of my movements including the cute little roundhouse kick they added as a possible animation to some pally abilities works just fine. Granted I have a top of the line box, but I'm assuming yours can't be TOO bad if it's running XIV so - you have some other incompatibility.

The only thing I will agree with is the simplistic animation of crafting - but my argument is that crafting isn't meant to be your whole life in WoW. Get it done and move on is their philosophy on it and honestly I'll take that over the nightmare repetition of select ingredients, kneel, play minigame that is really just a clever mask for a RNG, fail, repeat.

Skinning on druid is really cute though - in cat form it looks like you are digging in the litter box.
:p

I'm not saying it doesn't have its flaws, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to act like it's just completely fail. Granted, Square Enix is more elegant in designs and it's just the way that jRPG is, but Blizzard's game is just as appealing albeit in a different way.

Gosh I wish we had more patches every day so we didn't have to resort to arguing whether WoW is a worthy competitor or not. Sorry for continuing the derail.
#50 Apr 07 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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3,530 posts
Torrence wrote:
Quote:

You also talk of "attentions to detail," but why does almost all of my gear clip through a different piece? Why do my shoulders stretch impossibly from my body when I cast a buff? Why is every crafting animation I do the same, as I simply mash my hands together, the alchemy bottles sliding through each other? Why does my bowstring stretch through my face? Why does my ram, when it charges or jumps, move its face through its own neck?



I don't really know what you mean with gear clipping through to a different piece, shoulders stretching impossibly, bowstring through your face and rams face through neck but all of that sounds like graphical glitches that aren't part of the game. My armor looks fine, my mounts don't scrunch up on itself, and all of my movements including the cute little roundhouse kick they added as a possible animation to some pally abilities works just fine. Granted I have a top of the line box, but I'm assuming yours can't be TOO bad if it's running XIV so - you have some other incompatibility.

The only thing I will agree with is the simplistic animation of crafting - but my argument is that crafting isn't meant to be your whole life in WoW. Get it done and move on is their philosophy on it and honestly I'll take that over the nightmare repetition of select ingredients, kneel, play minigame that is really just a clever mask for a RNG, fail, repeat.

Skinning on druid is really cute though - in cat form it looks like you are digging in the litter box.
:p

I'm not saying it doesn't have its flaws, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to act like it's just completely fail. Granted, Square Enix is more elegant in designs and it's just the way that jRPG is, but Blizzard's game is just as appealing albeit in a different way.

Gosh I wish we had more patches every day so we didn't have to resort to arguing whether WoW is a worthy competitor or not. Sorry for continuing the derail.


They're not graphical glitches, WoW's models are just terrible. I've seen it consistently across three completely separate systems, all you have to do it look for it:

1.) Get a ram mount
2.) Hit the space bar

That should show you one right there XD

Here are some threads of everyone having these issues; it's not a graphical problem (unless you count badly-done models as a graphical problem).


Edited, Apr 7th 2011 8:36pm by KaneKitty
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#51 Apr 08 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Quote:

You also talk of "attentions to detail," but why does almost all of my gear clip through a different piece? Why do my shoulders stretch impossibly from my body when I cast a buff? Why is every crafting animation I do the same, as I simply mash my hands together, the alchemy bottles sliding through each other? Why does my bowstring stretch through my face? Why does my ram, when it charges or jumps, move its face through its own neck?



I don't really know what you mean with gear clipping through to a different piece, shoulders stretching impossibly, bowstring through your face and rams face through neck but all of that sounds like graphical glitches that aren't part of the game. My armor looks fine, my mounts don't scrunch up on itself, and all of my movements including the cute little roundhouse kick they added as a possible animation to some pally abilities works just fine. Granted I have a top of the line box, but I'm assuming yours can't be TOO bad if it's running XIV so - you have some other incompatibility.

The only thing I will agree with is the simplistic animation of crafting - but my argument is that crafting isn't meant to be your whole life in WoW. Get it done and move on is their philosophy on it and honestly I'll take that over the nightmare repetition of select ingredients, kneel, play minigame that is really just a clever mask for a RNG, fail, repeat.

Skinning on druid is really cute though - in cat form it looks like you are digging in the litter box.
:p

I'm not saying it doesn't have its flaws, but it's a bit of an exaggeration to act like it's just completely fail. Granted, Square Enix is more elegant in designs and it's just the way that jRPG is, but Blizzard's game is just as appealing albeit in a different way.

Gosh I wish we had more patches every day so we didn't have to resort to arguing whether WoW is a worthy competitor or not. Sorry for continuing the derail.


They're not graphical glitches, WoW's models are just terrible. I've seen it consistently across three completely separate systems, all you have to do it look for it:

1.) Get a ram mount
2.) Hit the space bar

That should show you one right there XD

Here are some threads of everyone having these issues; it's not a graphical problem (unless you count badly-done models as a graphical problem).


Edited, Apr 7th 2011 8:36pm by KaneKitty


When did this turn into a WoW forum? I thought we were talking about FFXIV.
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