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EDITORIAL: Can There Only Be One?Follow

#1 Apr 08 2011 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Hi all,

My latest editorial focuses on a tale of two games -- Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV -- and how the success of one may be harming the other. Final Fantasy XI has been undergoing a resurrection while FFXIV is still getting up off the canvas. I'm sure the brass at Square Enix never expected this to happen. Could they be rethinking the futures of both games? And if so, which game would get more attention?

You can check out the editorial here.

The main discussion thread for this editorial is in the Final Fantasy XI General Forum, but feel free to comment here as well.

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#2 Apr 08 2011 at 1:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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In the end, there can be only fun. (whether there's one FF MMO or two, it all boils down to this)
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#3 Apr 08 2011 at 2:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I sure hope they dont give up on FFXIV, If they do I am sure i will never buy another SE product. I will stick to Blizzard for my PC gaming needs if FFXIV doesnt work out.
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#4 Apr 08 2011 at 3:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I sure hope they dont give up on FFXIV, If they do I am sure i will never buy another SE product. I will stick to Blizzard for my PC gaming needs if FFXIV doesnt work out.


Problem they have is this works both ways and FFXI has a vastly larger PAYING playbase. Whatever they do they have to be careful to not annoy that large playerbase or they will not only dig the grave deeper for XIV but lose a profitable 8-9 year loyal 200-300k playerbase in the process.

I'm understanding OP is trying to push the idea that XI being continually updated is damaging FFXIV but if not for XI being as profitable and successfull as it is the company could be in a very serious situation after how much damage XIV has done to it financially and as it's status as a games company.

In honest terms them doing anything to damage FFXI would be like Blizzard damaging WoW to push Starcraft 2(if starcraft 2 failed).


Edited, Apr 8th 2011 5:44am by preludes
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#5 Apr 08 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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preludes wrote:
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I sure hope they dont give up on FFXIV, If they do I am sure i will never buy another SE product. I will stick to Blizzard for my PC gaming needs if FFXIV doesnt work out.


Problem they have is this works both ways and FFXI has a vastly larger PAYING playbase. Whatever they do they have to be careful to not annoy that large playerbase or they will not only dig the grave deeper for XIV but lose a profitable 8-9 year loyal 200-300k playerbase in the process.

I'm understanding OP is trying to push the idea that XI being continually updated is damaging FFXIV but if not for XI being as profitable and successfull as it is the company could be in a very serious situation after how much damage XIV has done to it financially and as it's status as a games company.

In honest terms them doing anything to damage FFXI would be like Blizzard damaging WoW to push Starcraft 2(if starcraft 2 failed).


Edited, Apr 8th 2011 5:44am by preludes


I get what you are saying but another round of server mergers leads me to believe SE knows something about FFXI that others might not. Things might be on a steadier down turn for FFXI than the average person knows.
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#6 Apr 08 2011 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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I get what you are saying but another round of server mergers leads me to believe SE knows something about FFXI that others might not. Things might be on a steadier down turn for FFXI than the average person knows.


Server merges were planned (in 2 parts) over a year ago, Square being Square they are just carrying through with part two of this old plan even though they really aren't needed right now. They are merging servers with well over 1-2k people online at one time. They are bascially reducing costs right now to maximise profits.

Keep in mind FFXI had 24 servers with as I said 200-300k+ (peaked at 500k i think?) active subscribers, they want to try to keep those 200-300k subsribers on 12 servers instead of 24 to make more money. They honestly had more servers than they needed, same as is the case with FFXIV.
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#7 Apr 08 2011 at 5:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's face it, FFXI is 9 years old and now that it has reached "absolute endgame" I think it's pretty much obvious that it's heading towards the end of its lifespan as a MMORPG, as soon as people will begin completing all of the objectives they wanted to achieve.. they'll probably focus on PvP for a while later, and then ultimately quit..

It's like a story, it has a beginning and an end.. in mine, my FFXI character, Hanatsuki, simply hanged her weapons to the wall of her mog house, put her artifact armor on the mannequin and left the adventures of old times to her memories, to live a quiet life.. she has 243 vana'dielian years after all.. e.e
Eheh, I like to think about it like that.. xd
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#8 Apr 08 2011 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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Let's face it, FFXI is 9 years old and now that it has reached "absolute endgame" I think it's pretty much obvious that it's heading towards the end of its lifespan as a MMORPG, as soon as people will begin completing all of the objectives they wanted to achieve.. they'll probably focus on PvP for a while later, and then ultimately quit..


You don't play FFXI, it recently had a major game changing rebirth with Abyssea and they are making a big patch coming up. What they released a year ago pretty much wiped all the goals people had and made new ones. FFXI can be seen in the same light as WoW, both games are popular and make good money (one more than the other obviously) but if you have 200-300k dedicated subscribers all paying every month and your other "new" MMO is struggling to have 70k active subs that don't pay anything at it's most popular time (when it's brand new and flashy) you have to wonder which will actually die first. No matter what they do to the game it's down to the players whether they play it or not.

Quote:
It's like a story, it has a beginning and an end.. in mine, my FFXI character, Hanatsuki, simply hanged her weapons to the wall of her mog house, put her artifact armor on the mannequin and left the adventures of old times to her memories, to live a quiet life.. she has 243 vana'dielian years after all.. e.e
Eheh, I like to think about it like that.. xd


And then you have the vast majority of the rest of the XIV players that tried it and ended their "story" within the week going back to the old better story. I only know 1 person that still plays FFXIV (sold his decked account right before release thinking FFXI would be dead after) everyone else of a rather large group of us all went back.

People said at the start FFXIV was pretty much done after such a terrible release, 6 months later this has been proven since it's actually worse off. It's still free and has far less players and bigger brighter MMO's are coming closer and closer. 6 months is an eternity for an MMO, even hardcore FFXIV fanbois are wandering.

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 8:05am by preludes
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#9 Apr 08 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Really FFXI's success just buys them more time. The slight boost in FFXI subscribers might be the luxury they needed to buy extra time developing FFXIV.

Maybe in the end SE will be considered pure geniuses for pulling of a 2 year "beta" and releasing the most finished, full-featured, content-full, graphically beautiful MMO in the history of the world!... Of course their only fear would have to be that the game needs to be redesigned for the PS4 prior to release.

#10 Apr 08 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
Mithsavvy wrote:
... Of course their only fear would have to be that the game needs to be redesigned for the PS4 prior to release.


I could see the benefit of holding out for the PS4 launch...but at the same time, unless Sony plans on releasing the PS4 by next spring, I doubt that SE could really afford to wait longer than that to release the console version. Although if PS4 is backwards compatible, then maybe they could boost the graphics quality on the new system...
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#11KaineGestalt, Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're taking for granted that FFXIV is doomed..
#12 Apr 08 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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...if... the new team achieves anything significant before I grow bald, I'll lose my last hair out of surprise.
#13 Apr 08 2011 at 9:47 AM Rating: Default
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Well.. keep in mind that to repair the disaster, alot of the game has to be revisited and rewritten.. I'm not surprised it is taking a little longer...
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#14 Apr 08 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
...if... the new team achieves anything significant before I grow bald, I'll lose my last hair out of surprise.


Yes. New team is taking things too slow. I wonder if they're planning on putting out some of those dramatic changes they've talked about before the year is over.
#15 Apr 08 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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KaineGestalt wrote:
Let's face it, FFXI is 9 years old and now that it has reached "absolute endgame" I think it's pretty much obvious that it's heading towards the end of its lifespan as a MMORPG, as soon as people will begin completing all of the objectives they wanted to achieve.. they'll probably focus on PvP for a while later, and then ultimately quit..


I agree with preludes, it's obvious you don't play FFXI. PvP??? PvP has been completely dead in FFXI for years, and even in the halfhearted attempt to introduce it in the past, it never caught on because that's just not the kind of game FFXI is.

The brilliant design of the Abyssea expansions and the clear roadmap taking us to Spring 2012 look pretty good to me. A lot more compelling than the floundering I see in FFXIV.

A year ago I wouldn't blame people for thinking XI was on its last legs and XIV would take over. I didn't expect FFXIV to be a colossal failure and for XI to have the most inspired year of changes and updates maybe in its whole life (rivaled only by the ToAU launch. Some people who haven't seen XI in the past year might still think it has just been shuffling on in the same way it was in 2009 and early 2010. Those people don't have the whole picture.
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#16 Apr 08 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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You don't play FFXI, it recently had a major game changing rebirth with Abyssea and they are making a big patch coming up.

That "major game changing rebirth" just screams "one big final party before we all head off to college." EXP flows like water, the best gear is attainable with only a little time and a couple of people, and the challenge from all previous content has been removed entirely. This is the game's way of letting everyone feel über and leet. It's an awesome way to run down the clock on a long-living, successful game, but there's no denying that game balance and long-term challenge is being put aside for some short-term fun.

This isn't a rebirth; it's a wake. It's one of those awesome drunken wakes where everyone has a great time and shares happy memories of the departed, but it's still a wake.

And it's a wake that's going to last at least another year, so we might as well enjoy the party. But, don't pretend that this is anything but SE winding down a game that they don't see a long-term future in. I'm just happy that they're ending on a bang and not a whimper.
#17 Apr 08 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
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Anza wrote:
KaineGestalt wrote:
Let's face it, FFXI is 9 years old and now that it has reached "absolute endgame" I think it's pretty much obvious that it's heading towards the end of its lifespan as a MMORPG, as soon as people will begin completing all of the objectives they wanted to achieve.. they'll probably focus on PvP for a while later, and then ultimately quit..


I agree with preludes, it's obvious you don't play FFXI. PvP??? PvP has been completely dead in FFXI for years, and even in the halfhearted attempt to introduce it in the past, it never caught on because that's just not the kind of game FFXI is.

I enjoyed ballista.. I remember when alot of people played it.. and I think PvP is what remains in a MMORPG after you've completed all of your character improving goals.. or just do stagnant PvE and get bored... yes, stagnant, because while you have a strategy for each enemy, PvP is a constant challenge..

Anza wrote:

The brilliant design of the Abyssea expansions and the clear roadmap taking us to Spring 2012 look pretty good to me. A lot more compelling than the floundering I see in FFXIV.

In fact.. I haven't played Abyssea.. as I quit before it came out..

Anza wrote:

A year ago I wouldn't blame people for thinking XI was on its last legs and XIV would take over. I didn't expect FFXIV to be a colossal failure and for XI to have the most inspired year of changes and updates maybe in its whole life (rivaled only by the ToAU launch. Some people who haven't seen XI in the past year might still think it has just been shuffling on in the same way it was in 2009 and early 2010. Those people don't have the whole picture.

I'm one of those people.. besides, I said "on it's way to the end of its lifespan".. not that it was on its last legs..

The central notch is where FFXI is now at.. I believe..
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Caesura wrote:
Quote:
You don't play FFXI, it recently had a major game changing rebirth with Abyssea and they are making a big patch coming up.

That "major game changing rebirth" just screams "one big final party before we all head off to college." EXP flows like water, the best gear is attainable with only a little time and a couple of people, and the challenge from all previous content has been removed entirely. This is the game's way of letting everyone feel über and leet. It's an awesome way to run down the clock on a long-living, successful game, but there's no denying that game balance and long-term challenge is being put aside for some short-term fun.

This isn't a rebirth; it's a wake. It's one of those awesome drunken wakes where everyone has a great time and shares happy memories of the departed, but it's still a wake.

And it's a wake that's going to last at least another year, so we might as well enjoy the party. But, don't pretend that this is anything but SE winding down a game that they don't see a long-term future in. I'm just happy that they're ending on a bang and not a whimper.

That is what I meant with my "dying star" metaphor..

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 3:39pm by KaineGestalt
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#18 Apr 08 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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preludes wrote:
Quote:
I sure hope they dont give up on FFXIV, If they do I am sure i will never buy another SE product. I will stick to Blizzard for my PC gaming needs if FFXIV doesnt work out.


Problem they have is this works both ways and FFXI has a vastly larger PAYING playbase. Whatever they do they have to be careful to not annoy that large playerbase or they will not only dig the grave deeper for XIV but lose a profitable 8-9 year loyal 200-300k playerbase in the process.

I'm understanding OP is trying to push the idea that XI being continually updated is damaging FFXIV but if not for XI being as profitable and successfull as it is the company could be in a very serious situation after how much damage XIV has done to it financially and as it's status as a games company.

In honest terms them doing anything to damage FFXI would be like Blizzard damaging WoW to push Starcraft 2(if starcraft 2 failed).


Edited, Apr 8th 2011 5:44am by preludes


No it'd be like Blizzard slowing down updates on WoW when Titan is released. Starcraft is not an MMO.
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#19 Apr 08 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
What exactly makes people think that MMO's have a life span?

If you have a fun game that people are willing to pay for, it's just going to keep going.

It's proving rather more difficult than people expected to create a new MMO that can seriously compete with the current MMO's that have had years to build up, build up, build up.

I think you will find that FFXI and FFXIV (also both WoW and Titan) are all still around in 2030.

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 4:31pm by SmashingtonWho
#20 Apr 08 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I really don't think FFXI can go back to having a competitive and challenging endgame again after abyssea. I agree with the people who say its just a last party. If they decide go to that way again, they're just going to have to plateau the game off again at another cap, and build from the ground up another endgame, where they will inevitably be unable to keep up with the players rate of beating content.
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#21 Apr 08 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
What exactly makes people think that MMO's have a life span?

If you have a fun game that people are willing to pay for, it's just going to keep going.

It's proving rather more difficult than people expected to create a new MMO that can seriously compete with the current MMO's that have had years to build up, build up, build up.
Well it's an indefinite lifespan..
What makes me think that a MMORPG is reaching its demise are different and separate elements to which I even gave names:
1) Constant decrease of playerbase to inconsistent numbers.. (Heat death)
2) Implementation of game breaking features.. (Final shine)
3) Implementation of indefinite time bonuses on exp and drops.. (Another type of "Final shine"..)
4) "Abandon" by developers, updates are no longer provided.. (Dereliction)

PSO:BB is an example of final shine.. which was first a tripled exp/drop bonus and then making it F2P before the ultimate closedown of the servers..


SmashingtonWho wrote:

I think you will find that FFXI and FFXIV (also both WoW and Titan) are all still around in 2030.

That if we are still around..! xd

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 5:15pm by KaineGestalt
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#22 Apr 08 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's proving rather more difficult than people expected to create a new MMO that can seriously compete with the current MMO's that have had years to build up, build up, build up.

Rift did it just fine, largely by putting innovation at a distant second to a refined and polished game experience. That is, incidentally, exactly the opposite of the approach SE took with FXIV. In hindsight, it seems fairly obvious which approach players were looking for.

FFXI (and perhaps XIV as well) may be around in 20 years. But, there's a big difference between a game thriving and a company just leaving the servers on to collect a few remaining subscriptions. I still play console games from ten years ago, but that doesn't mean that the PS1 is still alive. MMO's have lifespans, and the success of Rift shows pretty clearly that there are a lot of players champing at the bit to jump into something new.
#23 Apr 08 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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There would be room for both games if they were different enough and SE didn't fail at making games in general since the merger. The problem is most of the FF14 players were FF11 players who upon seeing the beautiful wreck of a game, went back to their old game and all their friends.
#24 Apr 08 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
Caesura wrote:
Rift did it just fine, largely by putting throwing innovation at a distant second out the window, to adopt a refined and polished game experience ...that another company already spent the time and money perfecting. That is, incidentally, exactly the opposite of the approach SE took with FXIV. In hindsight, it seems fairly obvious which approach players were looking for.

...MMO's have lifespans, and the success of Rift shows pretty clearly that there are a lot of players champing at the bit to jump into something new another WoW clone.


Sorry, just had to make a few edits there.

That said, I would like to clarify that I am in no way against anyone playing WoW or Rift, but that I have no desire to play or even compare a game(to FFXIV) that feels it necessary to state that it is not a WoW clone in its own commercials to try and convince people otherwise. We might as well just stick to comparing WoW and FFXIV. (And yes I realize there are some differences between Rift and WoW (unfortunately I can count them on one hand and still afford to amputate a couple of fingers).

There has been an overwhelming talk of how no one wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2 so let's refrain from comparing FFXIV and WoW-2.

Preparing for rate downs in 3...2...1...(And yeah, I am willing to take a sub-default for this post if necessary.)
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#25 Apr 08 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Time and again, MMO sequels pale in comparison to their surviving predecessor.

I realize FFXIV was deliberately designed not to end up a FFXI-2 for that very reason. However, despite the effort, it appears to have inevitably fallen in the same trap.
#26 Apr 08 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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There has been an overwhelming talk of how no one wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2 so let's refrain from comparing FFXIV and WoW-2.

Did you even read my post while you were "editing" it?

My point wasn't that Rift isn't original. My point is that Rift was a polished, complete gaming experience, from the first day. The interface worked. There were quests. You could sort your inventory. And, they fixed problems in weeks (days, even) instead of months. Rift is everything a good MMO launch should be -- everything that FFXIV wasn't, and mostly still isn't months later. Those are absolutely reasonable things to compare to FFXIV, because those are things that every MMO needs to do to succeed.

If Rift (or WoW) isn't your cup of tea, that's understandable. But, it's silly to pretend that there are no possible points of comparison here.
#27 Apr 08 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
KujaKoF wrote:
I really don't think FFXI can go back to having a competitive and challenging endgame again after abyssea. I agree with the people who say its just a last party. If they decide go to that way again, they're just going to have to plateau the game off again at another cap, and build from the ground up another endgame, where they will inevitably be unable to keep up with the players rate of beating content.


I would debate that never in it's life span did it have enough content to satisfy the hardcore crowd. Some people can just plow through a full expansion in a week. Keeping up with players rate of beating content is impossible, depending on which players you are looking at. How many times have they done exactly what you describe? Over and over and over again. I just don't understand why it's not possible for another 20 years.
#28 Apr 08 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
There has been an overwhelming talk of how no one wants FFXIV to be FFXI-2 so let's refrain from comparing FFXIV and WoW-2.

Did you even read my post while you were "editing" it?

My point wasn't that Rift isn't original. My point is that Rift was a polished, complete gaming experience, from the first day. The interface worked. There were quests. You could sort your inventory. And, they fixed problems in weeks (days, even) instead of months. Rift is everything a good MMO launch should be -- everything that FFXIV wasn't, and mostly still isn't months later. Those are absolutely reasonable things to compare to FFXIV, because those are things that every MMO needs to do to succeed.

If Rift (or WoW) isn't your cup of tea, that's understandable. But, it's silly to pretend that there are no possible points of comparison here.


Yes, I agree Rift was leagues ahead of FFXIV in terms of offering a "complete" game. I was trying to point out that because it was founded so thoroughly on WoW that it wasn't that hard to have ample content available from the start, whereas FFXIV was attempting to take a -very- innovative approach. I applaud SE for the effort, and failed launch or not, I am happy they didn't just take FFXI or any other MMO, slap a fresh coat of paint on it and call it a day.

It's like comparing someone making a mid-size sedan to someone attempting to make an exotic supercar. Sure, the mid-size sedan rolls off the assembly line and some family buys it a week later and it runs fine and everyone is content with their run-of-the-mill cookie-cutter car. But even if the exotic supercar comes off the line and is taken for a spin and experiences total engine failure, you can't compare the two cars, because the only thing they have in common is whether or not they worked on release.
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#29 Apr 09 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Im not sure who you've been talking to, but allow me to profess quite adamantly that I was expecting FFXI 2. I realize that is not the case. However, I would still like the developers to fit in as much FFXIish concepts,ideas and things into FFXIV aa possible. That's not to say FFXI didn't have any bad ideas,but you don't this the baby out with the bath water. I wont go into detail about the many many things FFXI did right because tap talk from a droid is annoying.


Now as to Rift,Ihate WoW and all its clones. But Rift is doing a few things right that SE could take a lesson from.

1. They had a direction.
2. They didn't try to cater to a new audience in favor of abandoning their existing player base.
3. They used a common sense approach of if it ain't broke don't fix it
4. They did not fall into the folly of trying to make crafters into a class, and further ***** up by promising to make them just as relevant to adventuring as battle classes.
5. They have no durability or repair on items.
6. They borrowed 2 things from FFXI: large scale PvE (like campaign) and their class switching feature ( even if it is more restrictive)

As for the topic at hand, I do think FFXI has some life left in it and FFXIV unfortunately is not a threat to it. Though I do believe the population will continue to slowly dwindle. Mean while FFXIV will continue to have people leave the game at a fairly fast rate. And when some of the AAA MMO titles come out later this year and early next year, it will be a mass exodus unless SE can get things right. I have faith that they can, but think it will take too long. Id say a year or more to get things right.
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#30 Apr 09 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Default
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Anyone who thinks Aybssa is FFXI's rebirth needs to lay off the crack pipe. FFXI is bleeding players more now then ever. And the only thing server mergers do is ******* people off and make even more people quit. 3 years ago my server use to have 3,800 people on a night. Now even with the server merger it hovers around 2k people.

Abyssa was the worst thing SE ever produced, I laugh my **** off when I see level 90 Abyssa made players die to a ep mob in the old content world. The only thing Abyssa is doing is making players feel god like with all the super natural buffs. But even that gets boring fast. I will be shocked to see FFXI around in 2 years and if it is by some chance SE will be letting it run just because. You can bet that there is not going to be 12 servers in 2 years from now! I will be shocked if they have half that many.

SE needs to get the ball rolling on FFXIV, if they don't release FFXIV on PS3 before or on the one year anniversary. They can forget about this game ever making a recovery. Do you know anyone who is going to pay $60 for a game that is over a year old with a failed launch? I know I don't!
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#31 Apr 09 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Now as to Rift,Ihate WoW and all its clones. But Rift is doing a few things right that SE could take a lesson from.

1. They had a direction.
2. They didn't try to cater to a new audience in favor of abandoning their existing player base.
3. They used a common sense approach of if it ain't broke don't fix it
4. They did not fall into the folly of trying to make crafters into a class, and further ***** up by promising to make them just as relevant to adventuring as battle classes.
5. They have no durability or repair on items.
6. They borrowed 2 things from FFXI: large scale PvE (like campaign) and their class switching feature ( even if it is more restrictive)


Now that -is- something I can wholeheartedly agree with.
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#32 Apr 09 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I really don't think FFXI can go back to having a competitive and challenging endgame again after abyssea. I agree with the people who say its just a last party. If they decide go to that way again, they're just going to have to plateau the game off again at another cap, and build from the ground up another endgame, where they will inevitably be unable to keep up with the players rate of beating content.


I would debate that never in it's life span did it have enough content to satisfy the hardcore crowd. Some people can just plow through a full expansion in a week. Keeping up with players rate of beating content is impossible, depending on which players you are looking at. How many times have they done exactly what you describe? Over and over and over again. I just don't understand why it's not possible for another 20 years.


FFXI has basically never done what I've described. You can argue the early level caps, but for the past 7 years or so, the endgame rules have been balanced to level 75, the entire game was balanced around it. What they can do now, if they feel like putting in the effort, is rebuilding a new endgame that basically renders the previous stuff irrelevant, much the way that TBC did for wow, and wotlk did for TBC.

I can agree with you on the hardcore aspects. I'm not even a hardcore player but I left FFXI for wow because i found it an inferior interactive system. Gameplay was more or less always the same, and the way to get better was in the setup, getting better gear, number crunching etc.
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#33 Apr 09 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Now as to Rift,Ihate WoW and all its clones. But Rift is doing a few things right that SE could take a lesson from.

...

2. They didn't try to cater to a new audience in favor of abandoning their existing player base.


Rift didn't have an audience to cater to. They were deliberately targeting WoW players, but WoW has 12 million subscribers. FFXI barely has a quarter of a million.

About the only lesson you're really trying to push on SE with saying something like this is to make a game that deliberately targets WoW players.
#34 Apr 09 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Rift didn't have an audience to cater to. They were deliberately targeting WoW players

: D

Also,
Quote:
About the only lesson you're really trying to push on SE with saying something like this is to make a game that deliberately targets WoW players.

Missing the point. SE ought to have targeted FFXI players. Instead, they catered to some huge, mindless, ultra-casual playerbase (all of whom have very powerful computers) that didn't exist anywhere except in Tanaka's head.
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#35 Apr 09 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Rift didn't have an audience to cater to. They were deliberately targeting WoW players

: D

Also,
Quote:
About the only lesson you're really trying to push on SE with saying something like this is to make a game that deliberately targets WoW players.

Missing the point. SE ought to have targeted FFXI players. Instead, they catered to some huge, mindless, ultra-casual playerbase (all of whom have very powerful computers) that didn't exist anywhere except in Tanaka's head.


I was making a point; you're the one who is missing mine.

FFXI has a quarter of a million players.

Even if FFXI-2 snagged them all, that's not enough to make an MMO a success. At least if they went after WoW players, they might have a chance to break even...
#36 Apr 09 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Time and again, MMO sequels pale in comparison to their surviving predecessor.

I realize FFXIV was deliberately designed not to end up a FFXI-2 for that very reason. However, despite the effort, it appears to have inevitably fallen in the same trap.


This is not always the case though. And it's hard to get an accurate estimate, objectively, due to the relatively small amount of MMO sequels. I can say at least that EQ2 is an excellent game, and still has a good sized playerbase.

If XIV didn't have so many problems during production, beta and launch I'm sure it would have been at least decent. XIV though is a bit of a special case though I think, when you're looking at it compared to XI. It didn't exactly launch with a fair chance to try and contend

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 4:15pm by Osarion
#37 Apr 09 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Time and again, MMO sequels pale in comparison to their surviving predecessor.

I realize FFXIV was deliberately designed not to end up a FFXI-2 for that very reason. However, despite the effort, it appears to have inevitably fallen in the same trap.


This is not always the case though. And it's hard to get an accurate estimate, objectively, due to the relatively small amount of MMO sequels. I can say at least that EQ2 is an excellent game, and still has a good sized playerbase.


I disagree. EQ2 struggled for a long time while veteran EQ players took a pass on it. It never really achieved the sensation that EQ was. That ends up being the typical pattern. A new MMO that courts players of an existing MMO might get their attention for a little while. But, eventually the novelty and the content run out, and most of those players head back to their old game.
#38 Apr 09 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Time and again, MMO sequels pale in comparison to their surviving predecessor.

I realize FFXIV was deliberately designed not to end up a FFXI-2 for that very reason. However, despite the effort, it appears to have inevitably fallen in the same trap.


This is not always the case though. And it's hard to get an accurate estimate, objectively, due to the relatively small amount of MMO sequels. I can say at least that EQ2 is an excellent game, and still has a good sized playerbase.


I disagree. EQ2 struggled for a long time while veteran EQ players took a pass on it. It never really achieved the sensation that EQ was. That ends up being the typical pattern. A new MMO that courts players of an existing MMO might get their attention for a little while. But, eventually the novelty and the content run out, and most of those players head back to their old game.


EQ was one of the first major MMO's out there. The sensation for all MMO's in general really is fading, if you ask me. There's just too much Xgame cloning these days. It's all melting into one tired, bland theme (In my opinion) and companies are too afraid to innovate because, let's face it, MMO's are cash cows, and big business knows it. This does not lend to innovation. WoW really has set the bar with this. Not in terms of game quality, but in terms of corporations seeing just how much money they can make off MMOs. Problem is, everyone wants to de-throne WoW, which means making your game a lot like WoW, which means the genre is stagnating. Sheesh, didn't mean to go on a tangent like that! Smiley: blush

Now, if you're talking about sub comparison between EQ1/2, I can't really say. However, EQ2 turned out to be a very good game, which I enjoyed playing a lot. I'm saying this as a stand-alone game in terms of quality. I still re-sub to it every now and then actually.
#39 Apr 09 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
Its funny when they announced the new world "Eorzea" i felt it was so ****** that i imagined the game would be a failure. But i never imagine Square would do such a poor game ever with the Final Fantasy title on it. If you remember how the game was launched, its just something beyond comprehension how such a big gaming company would release its most important title in that state. I still remember how horrible the UI lag was.

I wish i could return to FFXI oh well :/ Im no even confident over StarWars anymore, it seems that bioware is having huge problems there. The MMORPG market is pretty much dead now. Everquest 1 and FFXI are probably the best titles available.
#40 Apr 09 2011 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Almalexia wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Rift didn't have an audience to cater to. They were deliberately targeting WoW players

: D

Also,
Quote:
About the only lesson you're really trying to push on SE with saying something like this is to make a game that deliberately targets WoW players.

Missing the point. SE ought to have targeted FFXI players. Instead, they catered to some huge, mindless, ultra-casual playerbase (all of whom have very powerful computers) that didn't exist anywhere except in Tanaka's head.


I was making a point; you're the one who is missing mine.

FFXI has a quarter of a million players.

Even if FFXI-2 snagged them all, that's not enough to make an MMO a success. At least if they went after WoW players, they might have a chance to break even...

FFXI players, former and current, are automatically predisposed to play--or at least have interest in--SE's next MMO. SE even suggested players juggle both somehow. If FFXI had 500k+ live accounts in its heyday, there already exists a large enough base of potential users from FFXI stock. On top of that, every MMO stands to gain a fluid base of people who indiscriminately float from MMO to MMO, not to mention those disgruntled players who will try anything to get away from WoW.

For SE, a WoW clone was out of the question. But I think an FFXI-2 would have easily grabbed 1M users by the end of 2010. Even at a stable 500k, it would still turn a profit.

I still don't know what it means to "go after WoW players." Is Rift an example of that?
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#41 Apr 10 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For SE, a WoW clone was out of the question. But I think an FFXI-2 would have easily grabbed 1M users by the end of 2010. Even at a stable 500k, it would still turn a profit.


Repeating WoW is probably out of the question for everybody, nobody really knows why WoW is so popular but it is and honestly nobody (even Blizzard) will ever make another MMO that has such wide reaching appeal ever again. 500k users FFXI had was actually a very good number of subscribers for an MMO and very profitable.

Quote:
I wish i could return to FFXI oh well :/ Im no even confident over StarWars anymore, it seems that bioware is having huge problems there. The MMORPG market is pretty much dead now. Everquest 1 and FFXI are probably the best titles available.


If this is a problem with Verified by visa just ring them up and they can do the payment stuff over the phone with a normal card.
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#42 Apr 10 2011 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
EQ was one of the first major MMO's out there.

Exactly, a lot of MMOs were founded on principles set in EQ, FFXI included. After WoW became such a huge success (personal feelings aside) a lot of games then turned to WoW to adopt the now popular and successful model it used hoping to draw a similar response.
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
The sensation for all MMO's in general really is fading, if you ask me. There's just too much Xgame cloning these days. It's all melting into one tired, bland theme (In my opinion) and companies are too afraid to innovate because, let's face it, MMO's are cash cows, and big business knows it. This does not lend to innovation.

For this reason alone I truely applaud SE for making an effort to bring something totally new to the MMO field. Had SE not had the shaky start it did...who knows FFXIV very well could have been the contender to the WoW juggernaut that everyone has been attempting to be.

Being a long time FFXI player I find myself comparing the two, and wishing there were more similarities, but that is only because it was what I was used to and while humans are very good at adapting to a new environment, most people don't like change. However, I also realize that when I do start wishing for more FFXI-esque aspects in FFXIV that I really do appreciate the differences enough to bite my tongue a bit and instead focus on how the game can be made better without necessarily reverting to recycled FFXI concepts. I do agree if it's not broken don't fix it, however there is nothing wrong with an upgrade.
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#43 Apr 10 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Almalexia wrote:
FFXI players, former and current, are automatically predisposed to play--or at least have interest in--SE's next MMO.
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO because FFXIV never once was marketed to anyone other than currently existing FFXI players.

Almalexia wrote:
For SE, a WoW clone was out of the question.
They actually intended FFXIV to supersede WoW.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#44 Apr 10 2011 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO because FFXIV never once was marketed to anyone other than currently existing FFXI players.


Yep, looks like it:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/GamePlanUSCharts_Mar2011_wUKRank.bmp

That is the consumer purchase intent index from last month. I didn't know the XI fanbase is that massive.

Or then you're just speaking out of your ***. Either or.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#45 Apr 10 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
preludes wrote:
Quote:
For SE, a WoW clone was out of the question. But I think an FFXI-2 would have easily grabbed 1M users by the end of 2010. Even at a stable 500k, it would still turn a profit.


Repeating WoW is probably out of the question for everybody, nobody really knows why WoW is so popular but it is and honestly nobody (even Blizzard) will ever make another MMO that has such wide reaching appeal ever again. 500k users FFXI had was actually a very good number of subscribers for an MMO and very profitable.

Quote:
I wish i could return to FFXI oh well :/ Im no even confident over StarWars anymore, it seems that bioware is having huge problems there. The MMORPG market is pretty much dead now. Everquest 1 and FFXI are probably the best titles available.


If this is a problem with Verified by visa just ring them up and they can do the payment stuff over the phone with a normal card.



I tried, that it seems they only accept Canada and USA players. After 30minutes on the phone i tried to make sure everything was ok and the guy said he was going to send a letter from square in 7 work days top. I never got it.
#46 Apr 10 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO because FFXIV never once was marketed to anyone other than currently existing FFXI players.


Yep, looks like it:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/GamePlanUSCharts_Mar2011_wUKRank.bmp

That is the consumer purchase intent index from last month. I didn't know the XI fanbase is that massive.

Or then you're just speaking out of your ***. Either or.
I've noticed that this is not in fact an ad by SE for FFXIV. That'd be great if you could find one for me.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#47 Apr 10 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I've noticed that this is not in fact an ad by SE for FFXIV. That'd be great if you could find one for me.


Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO


Like I said, what a massive playerbase XI has indeed. Or maybe they are just very interested in purchase intent indexes and wanted to participate.

Why you want me to find an ad for XIV, I don't know. Seems that they don't even need one.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#48 Apr 10 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO because FFXIV never once was marketed to anyone other than currently existing FFXI players.


Yep, looks like it:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/GamePlanUSCharts_Mar2011_wUKRank.bmp

That is the consumer purchase intent index from last month. I didn't know the XI fanbase is that massive.

Or then you're just speaking out of your ***. Either or.


Hes completely right, SE didn't really market the game well at all. I saw a few ads in comic books, and I think I saw one in an old game informer, but thats about it. I didn't see them buy any web advertising, so they more or less tried to sell it to FFXI people, and then left people to find it on their own.

Not that it would have made a difference, other than even more people quitting with disgust over what was released, but every other game thats come out in recent years had massive ad campaigns. I still see rift ads every time I go online.
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#49 Apr 10 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFXIV is not FFXI-2. So, this idea that the 18th place finish (lol) is somehow indicative of a "massive" FFXI playerbase who is chomping at the bit for the PS3 "remake" of their existing game is so laughably and completely unproven on so many levels. You have no idea who it is who wants to buy this game or why just by looking at this chart.

All you know is that while awareness of the game is fairly high, the intent to purchase is relatively dismal. The word is out that the game sucks. That is conclusion you should drawing from this chart.

Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I've noticed that this is not in fact an ad by SE for FFXIV. That'd be great if you could find one for me.


Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO


Like I said, what a massive playerbase XI has indeed. Or maybe they are just very interested in purchase intent indexes and wanted to participate.

Why you want me to find an ad for XIV, I don't know. Seems that they don't even need one.


Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They're also the ONLY people interested in playing SE's next MMO because FFXIV never once was marketed to anyone other than currently existing FFXI players.


Yep, looks like it:

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/GamePlanUSCharts_Mar2011_wUKRank.bmp

That is the consumer purchase intent index from last month. I didn't know the XI fanbase is that massive.

Or then you're just speaking out of your ***. Either or.


Edited, Apr 10th 2011 5:41pm by ForceOfMeh
#50 Apr 10 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just wanted to say that I love the King Kong vs Godzilla-esque image on the main page for this article, with the Giant Marmot scaling the building. The Agro Icon is a nice touch.

Now I am picturing a giant, 100 malm tall Marmot rampaging through Thanalan, trying to break through the walls of mighty Ul'Dah ....
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