Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

FFXIV's only chance... free PS3 client?Follow

#1 Apr 08 2011 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,869 posts
Most people here, whether they admit it or not, understand that initial impressions of an MMO have a long lasting effect. No matter what changes are made to XIV, the bad press from the awful launch will forever be the albatross around the game's neck. One thing people hold out as a possible savior is the potential PS3 release. They say the console has a big install base, and provides another opportunity for a fresh start once the game is up to a higher level of quality. But why would any PS3 owner be excited about jumping into a game that has had overwhelmingly bad press... especially if it costs $60?

I don't know if the dev team can salvage FFXIV (realistic me says they can't, but that's not the point here). But if they have any shot at all, they have to get people to actually TRY the "fixed" version of the game once that's ready. I can't see S-E succeeding in convincing people to PAY to try the new and improved FFXIV, but maybe if they make something good enough to be worthy of attention on its own merits, the game can sell itself if they can only get people to try.

So... why not offer the client for free starting at PS3 launch (and at the same time make the PC client also free)? Give new players a free month, then start charging monthly. If the team is capable of making a game worth playing, this could be the shot in the arm the game needs to survive for the long run. If they can't make a game that can capture players even when they can try it at no risk, that probably just means the game isn't good enough despite efforts to revamp it.

S-E has one more big chance with a new audience of PS3 players, but they're never going to even get that chance if there's a barrier to entry in the form of an expensive software purchase for a game with highly negative vibes (whether deserved based on the "updated" version or not). Think of it like a basketball player trying for an open game winning shot, versus that same player trying for a game winning shot with a 7 foot tall opponent jumping in his face with a good chance to block the shot. Maybe the shot could have gone it, but nobody will ever know because he won't even be able to get it off due to the shot blocker. Maybe he doesn't make the open shot even if he tries... but at least he had a CHANCE. Charging for the software is that shot blocker. Give yourself an opportunity to prove yourself, S-E.
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#2 Apr 08 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
**
568 posts
I think this is actually a good idea. Just look at the 10+ million Free Realm users (it's crazy considering the quality of that game).
#3 Apr 08 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
I remember reading in an interview or something that SE plans on holding a beta or something for the PS3. Personally, I can see this being the only thing they really need. After a solid beta for PS3, and hopefully not a repeat of last year, they can launch with really high scores on all the new reviews, and hype the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!(hopefully ^^)". With good marketing they can easily drop the PS3 version on the shelf for $60 and watch the pre-orders sell out(again).

On a side note...I know there are quite a few PC users that plan on getting the PS3 version to dual-box...myself included.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#4 Apr 08 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
*
186 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I remember reading in an interview or something that SE plans on holding a beta or something for the PS3. Personally, I can see this being the only thing they really need. After a solid beta for PS3, and hopefully not a repeat of last year, they can launch with really high scores on all the new reviews, and hype the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!(hopefully ^^)". With good marketing they can easily drop the PS3 version on the shelf for $60 and watch the pre-orders sell out(again).

On a side note...I know there are quite a few PC users that plan on getting the PS3 version to dual-box...myself included.


Agreed.
____________________________
Watch who you are calling Douchebags, jerk. BANNED
#5 Apr 08 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
*
175 posts
Free Ps3 client..? I'm skeptic about it.. I think it will be most likely discounted..
It would be too large to make it available for download through PSN.. so even if the client was made free, you woudl still pay the disc and package..

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 4:11pm by KaineGestalt
____________________________
| I still believe in FFXIV...
My name is pronounced "kai-neh" actually.. and yes, it is feminine..
#6 Apr 08 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
Sometimes offering something for free has the opposite effect. The customer sees it as a cheapened product and by default will assume it sucks. It would probably be better for them to just market the fact that the game is totally different than the PC release, elaborate on the content, auction house, etc... and then charge full price. Marketing will be more key than offering it for cheap/free.


#7 Apr 08 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
Hey Anza, long time no see.

I doubt Sony will allow S-E to release a free PS3 client. But they need to have a huge open beta and a lot of advertisement of said open beta to bring players back once they get everything fixed and improved.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#8 Apr 08 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
I don't really consider that their only chance. Actually I don't think its a good idea at all but I'll get to that. What I think is FFXIV's only chance is to come up with an interesting battle system that isn't available anywhere else, and a variety of classes to use it with. They are going to completely lack release hype, they may get by on expansion hype (which really did wonders for WOW the first 2 expansions). They really would need to push the message that its a new and improved experience, and not try and dust the old under a rug.

The reason why I don't think that free PS3 clients are a good idea is purely dollars and cents. Allowing PS3 people to play while the game is still so heavily under the knife doesn't help. If they are planning on a surge of players once its done, what does it matter who gets to play until its done. I think they will need a huge chunk of box sales to show a good quarter on their financial reports, and to take a chunk out of their production costs. The $12.99 a month isn't profit, its revenue and who knows how much of that they are really clearing, they can't give up the $50 upfront per player, because they do actually see a lot of that money.
____________________________


#9 Apr 08 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!


Yeah, SE will be like: 0 + (1.0 x 0) = 0 chocobo

...ah crap; they really do need to update FFXIV's equations.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#10 Apr 08 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
KaneKitty wrote:
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!


Yeah, SE will be like: 0 + (1.0 x 0) = 0 chocobo

...ah crap; they really do need to update FFXIV's equations.


You forget that there are a few chocobos already in game (just not usable). :P
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#11 Apr 08 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
241 posts
I think a free client is the ideal future of FFXIV. Whenever it is brought up, people immediately start going on about games like FreeRealms where you have to buy all your items (I am not knocking the person who brought up FreeRealms.) Whenever I support the idea of a free client, I do not support the idea of being able to buy the best items, chocobos, etc.

Instead, I think the FTP future for FFXIV would involve the release of frequent expansions (or chapters). I think this is the best way for SE to regain consumer trust. Ideally, I would like to see the PS3 launch with the same game we have with unlimited free gameplay within our current realm. At the same time I would like to see an expansion released, which we could download for ~$12 - about a monthly subscription fee.

This way, if SE releases a string of garbage, nobody is commited to purchasing it. But I know if they released a sanctuary of Zi'Tah the size of Gridania, I would access it. I realize that expansions will need to be smaller for this concept to work, but even if SE released quarterly expansions for $30, I'm sure most people who would otherwise pay for a susbscription would purchase these expansions regularly. The casual player who would not otherwise subscribe can still be retained, and they will be more likely to purchase the odd expansion than resusbscribe and start grinding.

From the point of view of SE, it gives them significant more opportunity to market their product with each expansion release. New players will also be enticed to join the game for years to come, because after a significant number of expansions were released, the newcommer would have great deal of choices for their adventures to pick from. This is very beneficial for SE financially, because they can regain financial revenue from past expansions, where past subscription fees are lost.

Free to play with frequent (an somewhat mild)expansions for download - automatic purchase option; everyone is happy. SE gains revenue - players get choice and quality.
____________________________


#12 Apr 08 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
WolfOak wrote:
I think a free client is the ideal future of FFXIV. Whenever it is brought up, people immediately start going on about games like FreeRealms where you have to buy all your items (I am not knocking the person who brought up FreeRealms.) Whenever I support the idea of a free client, I do not support the idea of being able to buy the best items, chocobos, etc.

Instead, I think the FTP future for FFXIV would involve the release of frequent expansions (or chapters). I think this is the best way for SE to regain consumer trust. Ideally, I would like to see the PS3 launch with the same game we have with unlimited free gameplay within our current realm. At the same time I would like to see an expansion released, which we could download for ~$12 - about a monthly subscription fee.

This way, if SE releases a string of garbage, nobody is commited to purchasing it. But I know if they released a sanctuary of Zi'Tah the size of Gridania, I would access it. I realize that expansions will need to be smaller for this concept to work, but even if SE released quarterly expansions for $30, I'm sure most people who would otherwise pay for a susbscription would purchase these expansions regularly. The casual player who would not otherwise subscribe can still be retained, and they will be more likely to purchase the odd expansion than resusbscribe and start grinding.

From the point of view of SE, it gives them significant more opportunity to market their product with each expansion release. New players will also be enticed to join the game for years to come, because after a significant number of expansions were released, the newcommer would have great deal of choices for their adventures to pick from. This is very beneficial for SE financially, because they can regain financial revenue from past expansions, where past subscription fees are lost.

Free to play with frequent (an somewhat mild)expansions for download - automatic purchase option; everyone is happy. SE gains revenue - players get choice and quality.


So what happens to everyone that bought the game already? Are they going to refund everyone that already purchased the client their money back? I think even considering a free client would cause waaa~y more problems then SE would want to deal with. Besides, SE could stand to make another $60,000,000 from just selling another 1 million copies of the game between the PS3 launch and the following new PC sales.
____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#13 Apr 08 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
***
3,177 posts
I just don't see Sony allowing Square-Enix to give away free copies of a PS3 retail game. I am not up to date with PS3 games, but I've just never seen this before. Maybe they can get away with it on the PC version (14 day trials and what not), but Sony has some control over licensing of the ports and stuff, and I just don't see them going for it.

Heck, they were fighting with Microsoft for years over a Xbox 360 port which was ultimately scrapped / or "delayed" depending on who you ask. If they want to have a better chance of a comeback, have Yoshi-P restart talks with the people over at Xbox and come up with an even bigger comeback.

(Of course, only AFTER all this game gets fixed.)

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 2:54pm by UltKnightGrover
____________________________
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn
Grover Eyeveen - Hyperion Server
Viva Eorzea Free Company/Linkshell Leader - Hyperion Server

Aegis Server (2012-2013)
Figaro Server (2010-2012)

Final Fantasy XI:
Retired

Blog
#14 Apr 08 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
626 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I remember reading in an interview or something that SE plans on holding a beta or something for the PS3. Personally, I can see this being the only thing they really need. After a solid beta for PS3, and hopefully not a repeat of last year, they can launch with really high scores on all the new reviews, and hype the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!(hopefully ^^)". With good marketing they can easily drop the PS3 version on the shelf for $60 and watch the pre-orders sell out(again).

On a side note...I know there are quite a few PC users that plan on getting the PS3 version to dual-box...myself included.

yeah but were gonna be playing with people who have to toggle left and right just to use abilities/change targets, basicly its gonna be even slower than playing with people now, oh wait, the entire game was developed around a gamepad.

edit, sorry i woke up happy that were finally getting some good solid patch notes only to realize its that lame happy friday skit, so im still kinda bitter about this games failure.

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 5:53pm by pixelpop
____________________________

#15 Apr 08 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
241 posts
I didn't say anywhere that they should not sell the initial copy of the game (purchase of a content ID). I only intended to state the substitution of monthly subscription fees with expansion releases. After buying the initial game, one would not have to subscribe to grind to 50. If an expansion included a quest to break one's level past 50, or areas to explore outside of the 5 we now have, then the expansion would need to be purchased (in lieu of a monthly fee.) I don't understand why players have such a problem with this concept. It give more choice to the gamer - you don't have to buy if you are happy with the 3 towns we have.
____________________________


#16 Apr 08 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
241 posts
I didn't say anywhere that they should not sell the initial copy of the game (purchase of a content ID). I only intended to state the substitution of monthly subscription fees with expansion releases. After buying the initial game, one would not have to subscribe to grind to 50. If an expansion included a quest to break one's level past 50, or areas to explore outside of the 5 we now have, then the expansion would need to be purchased (in lieu of a monthly fee.) I don't understand why players have such a problem with this concept. It give more choice to the gamer - you don't have to buy if you are happy with the 3 towns we have.
____________________________


#17 Apr 08 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
2,869 posts
KaineGestalt wrote:
Free Ps3 client..? I'm skeptic about it.. I think it will be most likely discounted..
It would be too large to make it available for download through PSN.. so even if the client was made free, you woudl still pay the disc and package..


I don't agree that it would be too large. PSN already has many downloadable versions of full retail games (DC Universe Online, Assassin's Creed II, Infamous, etc.). One example - Record of Agarest War is download only (no US retail version exists) and is 9GB. So it's obvious that large games are indeed allowed on PSN.

Mithsavvy wrote:
Sometimes offering something for free has the opposite effect. The customer sees it as a cheapened product and by default will assume it sucks. It would probably be better for them to just market the fact that the game is totally different than the PC release, elaborate on the content, auction house, etc... and then charge full price. Marketing will be more key than offering it for cheap/free.


It's not a totally different game than the PC game though. It's the same thing, and everyone knows that. I agree that marketing the changes is important, but what's a better marketing tool than showing how confident you are in the improvements by letting people try the game?

No monthly fee looks like a cheapened product. Letting people play for 30 days for free to get a taste of your great product before charging them looks like confidence in your product.

****, perhaps FFXIV can launch on PS3 alongside its first expansion. Give the base game client away for free, charge for the expansion. Or make an all-in-one disc release for people who want to pay for physical media, but don't make it the only way potential customers can try your game.

KujaKoF wrote:
They really would need to push the message that its a new and improved experience, and not try and dust the old under a rug.


And what's a better way to push that than to let new players actually play the "new and improved" game? Marketing-speak and hype are not going to work to undo the harm that has already been done to the brand. Opportunity for players to see the changes... that might work.

Quote:
The reason why I don't think that free PS3 clients are a good idea is purely dollars and cents. Allowing PS3 people to play while the game is still so heavily under the knife doesn't help. If they are planning on a surge of players once its done, what does it matter who gets to play until its done. I think they will need a huge chunk of box sales to show a good quarter on their financial reports, and to take a chunk out of their production costs. The $12.99 a month isn't profit, its revenue and who knows how much of that they are really clearing, they can't give up the $50 upfront per player, because they do actually see a lot of that money.


First off, I don't think that they should release a PS3 version at all while the game is heavily under the knife. FIX THE **** THING FIRST. This is the absolute key. Then once they have whipped it into shape and it's READY to get that big push, release the PS3 version and do everything possible to get people to try the improved game. Setting up a $50 roadblock to entry is not doing everything possible to get people to try the game.

As for the financial aspect... I think it's extremely shortsighted to rely on the $50 upfront (which they don't actually get anything near $50 for after accounting for price retailers pay them in addition to packaging and shipping). If you can get much more exposure and a higher overall paying player base by hooking them with a free trial, you'll do FAR better in the long run doing whatever you can to ensure you get that player base intact.

Of course, that relies on having a good game that people like playing. If they know that the "new and improved" game still isn't very good and people won't stick around to play it, they're not going to make money by giving it away and being unable to get people to want to continue to play. They're going to want to trick suckers into paying for a crap game, because at least they got some short term money out of those software sales. To me, that's what charging for the client after a "new and improved" FFXIV is ready says. If they do believe it's a good game, they should be falling all over themselves to get people to try it, to overcome the bad feelings about the FFXIV brand that are out there by proving that they made it a lot better.

Even just from an economic point of view, Blizzard isn't afraid to give the WoW client away. They know that long-term, anyone they hook will mean a long stream of steady income, not to mention expansions. And they don't even have anything to prove, as the king of the MMO market - S-E also has to deal with convincing people to give their game a chance after an atrocious debut.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
Hey Anza, long time no see.

I doubt Sony will allow S-E to release a free PS3 client. But they need to have a huge open beta and a lot of advertisement of said open beta to bring players back once they get everything fixed and improved.


Hi Grover!

I think "beta" should be a dirty, dirty word for S-E around MMOs right now. FFXIV's "open beta" proved to be no help at all, and to this day people call the existing FFXIV an ongoing beta. It has such a negative connotation with the idea that it's an incomplete game, that I worry that kind of access actually sends the wrong message.
____________________________
Anza: Titan 2004-2011 / Capuchin: Phoenix 2011-???
#18 Apr 08 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
I think there is some confusion on pay models in this thread.

Subscription= You buy the disc game and pay monthly, quarterly, yearly on an ongoing basis. Whether you like the expansions or not. This will maximize profit for SE if they can convince enough users to stay subscribed. But if the population remains small, this model can also be less profitable.

Free to play= You get the original disc or download free most often and all future content inlcuding story expansions is bought thru microtransactions.(Most players used to subscriptions dislike this model, because the company is often accused of nickel and diming or charging for something they don't feel is warranted for charge.) Think of it like avatars, extra characters, outfits being purchasable via download,etc. This model can also be profitable, but is also shunned as some players feel the experience is cheapened.

Buy to play= You buy the disc and own the orignal game, you pay no monthly fee. Each expansion via disc or online transactions are pretty big. You have to buy the big expansion if you want to access the new content.(Similar to the model Dragon Age Origins and Awakenings or any massive feature packed download via xbox live or psn.)
If buy to play was the model for XI. Think about it as buying Original Disc, Rise of The Zilart, Chains of Promathia, Treasures of aht urghan, Wings of the Goddess, A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle kupo de tat, A Shantotto's Asencion, Visions Of Abyssea, Scars of Abyssea, Heroes of Abyssea but not paying the monthly fee in between expansions.
The one mmo that sold well and uses the same model is Guild Wars(6 million sold) and soon to be Guild Wars 2.
Buy to play can be the most profitable if they deliver on content each expansion. Once you buy content you own it just like an offline title. So the offline FF average 1-10 million in sales.

All play options can work. But if the subscription model seems to not be working, and we won't know until they start charging. I think the best option for them is buy to play if the subscription based model fails, because that is model most of the non mmo FF fanbase is most familiar with. But the main focus should be to get the game to become great in content, features, gameplay, progression, etc. Because without a fun and exhilarating experience. It won't matter what the pay model is.

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 6:53pm by sandpark
#19 Apr 08 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
It takes literally years for a fairly successful MMO to recoupe dev costs and with how FFXIV started and the small userbase it will end up with they in no way can do what your suggesting, keep in mind that most MMO's don't last that long either. They spent around 50mill on developing the game and since it's been free since release any profits they made off PC sales are long gone and indeed they are probably bloating that 50mill further now, running servers for free and paying staff etc costs a lot of money.

People are discussing if Bioware can ever make a profit on their new star wars MMO, let alone a game in this position.


____________________________
BANNED
#20 Apr 08 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
Anza wrote:
KaineGestalt wrote:
Free Ps3 client..? I'm skeptic about it.. I think it will be most likely discounted..
It would be too large to make it available for download through PSN.. so even if the client was made free, you woudl still pay the disc and package..


I don't agree that it would be too large. PSN already has many downloadable versions of full retail games (DC Universe Online, Assassin's Creed II, Infamous, etc.). One example - Record of Agarest War is download only (no US retail version exists) and is 9GB. So it's obvious that large games are indeed allowed on PSN.

Mithsavvy wrote:
Sometimes offering something for free has the opposite effect. The customer sees it as a cheapened product and by default will assume it sucks. It would probably be better for them to just market the fact that the game is totally different than the PC release, elaborate on the content, auction house, etc... and then charge full price. Marketing will be more key than offering it for cheap/free.


It's not a totally different game than the PC game though. It's the same thing, and everyone knows that. I agree that marketing the changes is important, but what's a better marketing tool than showing how confident you are in the improvements by letting people try the game?

No monthly fee looks like a cheapened product. Letting people play for 30 days for free to get a taste of your great product before charging them looks like confidence in your product.

****, perhaps FFXIV can launch on PS3 alongside its first expansion. Give the base game client away for free, charge for the expansion. Or make an all-in-one disc release for people who want to pay for physical media, but don't make it the only way potential customers can try your game.

KujaKoF wrote:
They really would need to push the message that its a new and improved experience, and not try and dust the old under a rug.


And what's a better way to push that than to let new players actually play the "new and improved" game? Marketing-speak and hype are not going to work to undo the harm that has already been done to the brand. Opportunity for players to see the changes... that might work.

Quote:
The reason why I don't think that free PS3 clients are a good idea is purely dollars and cents. Allowing PS3 people to play while the game is still so heavily under the knife doesn't help. If they are planning on a surge of players once its done, what does it matter who gets to play until its done. I think they will need a huge chunk of box sales to show a good quarter on their financial reports, and to take a chunk out of their production costs. The $12.99 a month isn't profit, its revenue and who knows how much of that they are really clearing, they can't give up the $50 upfront per player, because they do actually see a lot of that money.


First off, I don't think that they should release a PS3 version at all while the game is heavily under the knife. FIX THE **** THING FIRST. This is the absolute key. Then once they have whipped it into shape and it's READY to get that big push, release the PS3 version and do everything possible to get people to try the improved game. Setting up a $50 roadblock to entry is not doing everything possible to get people to try the game.

As for the financial aspect... I think it's extremely shortsighted to rely on the $50 upfront (which they don't actually get anything near $50 for after accounting for price retailers pay them in addition to packaging and shipping). If you can get much more exposure and a higher overall paying player base by hooking them with a free trial, you'll do FAR better in the long run doing whatever you can to ensure you get that player base intact.

Of course, that relies on having a good game that people like playing. If they know that the "new and improved" game still isn't very good and people won't stick around to play it, they're not going to make money by giving it away and being unable to get people to want to continue to play. They're going to want to trick suckers into paying for a crap game, because at least they got some short term money out of those software sales. To me, that's what charging for the client after a "new and improved" FFXIV is ready says. If they do believe it's a good game, they should be falling all over themselves to get people to try it, to overcome the bad feelings about the FFXIV brand that are out there by proving that they made it a lot better.

Even just from an economic point of view, Blizzard isn't afraid to give the WoW client away. They know that long-term, anyone they hook will mean a long stream of steady income, not to mention expansions. And they don't even have anything to prove, as the king of the MMO market - S-E also has to deal with convincing people to give their game a chance after an atrocious debut.

UltKnightGrover wrote:
Hey Anza, long time no see.

I doubt Sony will allow S-E to release a free PS3 client. But they need to have a huge open beta and a lot of advertisement of said open beta to bring players back once they get everything fixed and improved.


Hi Grover!

I think "beta" should be a dirty, dirty word for S-E around MMOs right now. FFXIV's "open beta" proved to be no help at all, and to this day people call the existing FFXIV an ongoing beta. It has such a negative connotation with the idea that it's an incomplete game, that I worry that kind of access actually sends the wrong message.


The idea paying for the expansion makes sense. Basically it would be something like a $30 stand-alone expansion, which is exactly what Dawn of War: Retribution was. If you don't already own the original, its a super deal. If you do already own the original, then you are simply paying standard expansion price anyway.

#21 Apr 08 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
I think they have spent more than 50 millions at this point due to the extended development being used to revise the game down to the core level. Not a massive amount more than originally intended but a substantial amount.

If the game only elevates back to Xi subscriber average which sits between 250k-500k. The game is going to take awhile to be back in the profit zone. Unless it completely does a 180 and becomes the hottest game on the market and numbers in the millions plus and on range.
I don't know how much it cost to keep servers online, worker salary, ship the game, royalties,etc.

Purchase game= $60.00
Basic Monthly= $ 12.99

60x250,000= $15,000,000 intial sales pre spending costs
12.99x250,000= $3,247,500 one year
So $18.247,000 gross profit for one year before some is subtracted to pay expenses.

So even if that whole $18,247,000 was profit, that would mean it would take at least 3 years to start going back into the profit zone excluding expansions in a subscription model.

Deduct that $18,247,000 and only count what profit they make in the free to play model, which no one can specualte on content or if sales would be brisk.

Comparing my offline ff comment with the current subscription base of FFXI. Believe it or not, some players or FF fans don't want to pay additional forced fees to continue playing an FF title. There is a disparity of 500k XI subs to an average 4-5 million who purchase offline ff titles. Is it mostly due to the sub fee or pc requirements? I don't know you tell me? Let's just say for arguments sake it was the sub fee. If SE used a buy to pay model and sold 4 million copies.

60x4,000,000= $24,000,000 in sales excluding expansions or expenses.

As you can see the profit between buy to play and a low subscription base is almost similar. But in the case of buy to play you have 4 million users in comparison to the 250k sub based model. I am in no way saying Buy to play is superior or better than subscription model. If SE knocks it out of the park and lifts the game to excellence in addition to a large subscriber base. No other pay model can compete in the long run. But if doesn't buy to play may be a better solution long term.
#22 Apr 08 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
241 posts
I think you might have forgot to multiply the montly subscription fee by 12 months. But I still agree that 'buy to play' has its financial perks. In two years time, a player will not agree to pay for the last two years when starting an account - but they might be convinced to buy some of the old expansions.

I see this kind of service viable best only when the price of a full years worth of expansions is comparable to 12 months @$12.99 or ~$150. Four expansions at $37, Ten expansions at $15, Twelve expansions at $12.99. This gives the consumer confidence. Profits for SE will match prospected monthly subscription fees if the content is entertaining and the playerbase purchases each expansion package. Once SE started releasing expansions with confidence, I would not be opposed to paying an annual fee for a 'subscription' to recieve all the packs (like a magazine subscription - you get to keep the magazine without paying more.)

Edited, Apr 8th 2011 10:47pm by WolfOak
____________________________


#23 Apr 08 2011 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
sandpark wrote:
60 x 4,000,000 = $24,000,000 $240,000,000

____________________________
Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost.
Data Center: Primal; Server: Ultros; Free Company: The Kraken Club; Grand Company: The Maelstrom; Chocobo: Kweh
#24 Apr 08 2011 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
*
91 posts
Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
I remember reading in an interview or something that SE plans on holding a beta or something for the PS3. Personally, I can see this being the only thing they really need. After a solid beta for PS3, and hopefully not a repeat of last year, they can launch with really high scores on all the new reviews, and hype the "new and improved FFXIV...now with 100% more chocobo!(hopefully ^^)". With good marketing they can easily drop the PS3 version on the shelf for $60 and watch the pre-orders sell out(again).


I think this is most likely what will happen. Maybe I'm an idiot(very likely), but I don't think SE is in the business of giving it away for free, no matter how bad they ***** up. Best case: we could be looking at a very competetively priced monthly fee when they do get around to charging for subscription.
#25 Apr 09 2011 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
ah yea that was major typo on my numbers there lol. Well, they be even better profit wise XD.
#26 Apr 09 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
63 posts
I expect there to be a sort of "built in" expansion when they release on PS3. I've been told that the coding for for a bunch of additional content is already in the game, it just hasn't been implemented yet. Stuff like classes and abilities up to level 99, new classes (musketeer, arcanist, shepherd(?!?!), etc.), Ishgard, and probably some additional leves, camps, and main storyline quests to go with the higher levels.

I've been told that they set the level cap at 50 on the PC release so that PC players wouldn't get too far ahead of PS3 players. But I think they're going to add in all that content when they release it on PS3. And I wouldn't be surprised if they release an "expansion pack" with new content and areas for level 50+, too. That way, they can throw out some new CGI movies that make it look like Eorzea is bursting at the seams with new content, to lure back old players and entice new ones.

My prediction -- that looming trouble from across the sea? It's no longer looming, or across the sea.

But I suspect they're going to pull out all the stops to try to lure back folks who left the game, and attract new players for both PS3 and PC. So I bet they offer up the first psuedo-expansion (that's already in the game code) and another expansion for "free" (i.e., the price of the game, plus 30 days free, until they start charging sub fees).

But then again, maybe they're putting all their manpower into fixing the game, so they won't have time to do any totally new content before PS3 release. So I could be totally wrong.
#27 Apr 09 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
Lmao! This game has not made SE 60mil of sales <.< Wtf are people smoking today ?
____________________________
MUTED
#28 Apr 09 2011 at 3:04 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
sandpark wrote:
As you can see the profit between buy to play and a low subscription base is almost similar. But in the case of buy to play you have 4 million users in comparison to the 250k sub based model. I am in no way saying Buy to play is superior or better than subscription model. If SE knocks it out of the park and lifts the game to excellence in addition to a large subscriber base. No other pay model can compete in the long run. But if doesn't buy to play may be a better solution long term.


First and foremost, you forgot to consider the costs of production, development over the past 6 years and continued cost of development throughout the project. SE is probably in the hole to the tune of tens of millions of dollars concerning FFXIV. Secondly, there is no way in **** that they'd sell 4 million boxes based on how bad this game is. In all honesty, if the box was only 10 bucks, it's still highly unlikely they'd even get half that total. I do admire your optimism, but you'd be taken more seriously if your numbers were a bit more realistic.

FFXI had a much better start despite the MMO market being much smaller and it took several years for the game to climb out of the red and finally start turning a profit.

In my opinion this game would be better as a F2P MMO with a free client download. Charge a small fee for addons and expansions and keep the crysta system intact to sell special in-game items. From a business standpoint, this would probably be their best bet for getting out of the red in the shortest amount of time. Is it better for the players? Well, the best business decisions aren't always what's best for the consumer. My fingers are crossed for those of you who bought the box.




____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#29 Apr 09 2011 at 4:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
Quote:
ah yea that was major typo on my numbers there lol. Well, they be even better profit wise XD.


Monthly fee.

On the subscription fee they make roughly around half as profit..maybe a little more, the rest goes on running costs(server/staff etc). This has been worked out on games like WoW. So say like $5-6 per month, per subscriber. From these numbers you can also work out roughly how much it costs Square to run FFXIV for free per month (350k+ p/month) over so far 6 months and add that to the 50mill+ they already spent on development as in the red costs.

FFXIV has 70k active users that play during free mode (according to FFXIVPRO that does scans of lodestone for any kind of changes over a 1 month period).

Initial Game sales.

If a game sells for $60 Square gets roughly 55% of that cost back.
Retail: 20%
Console Manufacturer Fee: 11.5%
Marketing: 7%
Manufacturing Costs: 5%
Distribution: 1%

As show above, keep in mind they could never give a console game away for free anyway, at bare minimum they need to pay for production/dist costs, pay Sony to be able to sell the game for their console and the shops need a money to stock it. Totally impossible unless they paid all that themselves and if they did a game that will already probably never make a profit will end up being a massive drain on the company.

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 6:56am by preludes
____________________________
BANNED
#30 Apr 09 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
*
91 posts
I have a strong feeling that ready or not they are going to announce PS3 beta and a PS3 release date soon. Like it or not no MMORPG ever has recovered from a launch as bad as this one. The window of opportunity is closing fast, pretty soon this game is going to be so old (in game years) that there going to have to pay to get people to play it. And SE knows this.

In all honesty unless they have a PS3 beta where everyone can play for free. There will be no chance for this game. The launch of this game failed hard, no one in their right mind is going to cough up $60 to play this game little alone $15 a month with out trying it first.

I don't know SE's finances, but I do know that FFXI is bleeding players faster then ever. I am 100% sure that they can not go on letting people play this game for free much longer. They say they don't know when they are going to charge and that is all pr bluff. They know when they want to start charging for this game. I have a feeling that its going to be right after the new quests and battle system are added if they have good reviews.

SE is in this business to make money and right now they are loosing money on this game. You can bet their stock holders are not very happy right now! I bet the developers are working around the clock to patch this game up so they can start charging asap!
____________________________
Bst75/Whm37
#31 Apr 09 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
What I think will happen, is they are going to name the first huge content patch after they feel ok with the game, but it won't really be called an expansion. Likely PC players will get this for free, and it'll come attached to the PS3 copy when they purchase it. I don't think they will dare charge PC players for it.
____________________________


#32 Apr 09 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
I wasn't proposing XIV to go Free to play. I said if the subscription model fails they would be wise to go buy to play. That mean you only buy the original disc and pay for expansions if you want them.

If the game gets fixed and becomes a great game, a buy to play model could very well sell 4 million boxes. I am not being optimistic or anything. Players buy millions of their offline titles, why would that be impossible for XIV if the game becomes great?


Right now there is no extreme time limit on how fast they get the game up and running. If they try and rush things, it is going to be in the same situation it was at launch. Everyone is trying to compare XIV to other pc only mmos with failed launch. The pc launch has no bearing on the ps3 release. If the ps3 release gets rave reviews and releases complete with content and polish. Also releases with a payment model that console users can manage. It can sell alot on the ps3.

As for the pc launch, even if they did have a good launch. SE already had a huge limiting factor on the game as is. Most pc users can't afford to upgrade their pc to specs reqiured to run XIV smoothly and hiccup free. Maybe a good amount of those 600k initial buyers will not bother coming back. But if SE delivers an FF mmo that offers a good experience that sets itself apart from other cookie cutter mmos. Chances are any players who loved XI, will be willing to give the game another shot.
Also stop thinking of Square like some run of the mill developer. They are a huge company. Yoshida spoke the truth, not many companies could afford to do what they are doing. Maybe Sony, EA, Activision/Blizzard could also but not many other mmo makers.

If you truly love SE and would like to continue playing an mmo designed by them. You better pray they pull this off and start making a profit regardless of the payment model. While they can afford to fund extra development time. The whole purpose of getting investors is so your game development is funded by someone other than your own in house pockets. If they can't turn this ship around. Even discussing their next mmo might be a thing of the past.

I for one hope they get it right. Because while some of those other mmos might be ok and streamlined whatever. The only other mmo I can even imagine myself playing is TOR. I love storytelling and only Bioware and Square-Enix usually fill that urge in the style I like for me.

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 4:15pm by sandpark

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 4:17pm by sandpark
#33 Apr 09 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
626 posts
sandpark wrote:
I wasn't proposing XIV to go Free to play. I said if the subscription model fails they would be wise to go buy to play. That mean you only buy the original disc and pay for expansions if you want them.

If the game gets fixed and becomes a great game, a buy to play model could very well sell 4 million boxes. I am not being optimistic or anything. Players buy millions of their offline titles, why would that be impossible for XIV if the game becomes great?


Right now there is no extreme time limit on how fast they get the game up and running. If they try and rush things, it is going to be in the same situation it was at launch. Everyone is trying to compare XIV to other pc only mmos with failed launch. The pc launch has no bearing on the ps3 release. If the ps3 release gets rave reviews and releases complete with content and polish. Also releases with a payment model that console users can manage. It can sell alot on the ps3.

As for the pc launch, even if they did have a good launch. SE already had a huge limiting factor on the game as is. Most pc users can't afford to upgrade their pc to specs reqiured to run XIV smoothly and hiccup free. Maybe a good amount of those 600k initial buyers will not bother coming back. But if SE delivers an FF mmo that offers a good experience that sets itself apart from other cookie cutter mmos. Chances are any players who loved XI, will be willing to give the game another shot.
Also stop thinking of Square like some run of the mill developer. They are a huge company. Yoshida spoke the truth, not many companies could afford to do what they are doing. Maybe Sony, EA, Activision/Blizzard could also but not many other mmo makers.

If you truly love SE and would like to continue playing an mmo designed by them. You better pray they pull this off and start making a profit regardless of the payment model. While they can afford to fund extra development time. The whole purpose of getting investors is so your game development is funded by someone other than your own in house pockets. If they can't turn this ship around. Even discussing their next mmo might be a thing of the past.

I for one hope they get it right. Because while some of those other mmos might be ok and streamlined whatever. The only other mmo I can even imagine myself playing is TOR. I love storytelling and only Bioware and Square-Enix usually fill that urge in the style I like for me.

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 4:15pm by sandpark

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 4:17pm by sandpark

i can see buy to play working, however, guildwars II is coming out soon and it too will be buy to play, and from videos, it looks like it will blow FFXIV out of the water in an instant if they're in the same market.

edit, i forgot FFXIV is a console MMO, so never mind, they wouldnt really be in the same market ******** PS3 mmo players /disgruntle)

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 6:07pm by pixelpop
____________________________

#34 Apr 09 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
**
395 posts
No to the person who recommended Xbox 360.

As we saw with FFXIII on 360, it's far inferior to games that SE codes, Japan just isn't very good at coding 360 games, especially square enix (Star Ocean 4 anyone?). That would be setting FFXIV up for a FFXI style limitation. Especially since the 360 has shared gpu/ram, it will run into the same problems the PS2 FFXI version had at some point. Right now FFXI has essentially hit a wall, where they are saying new content is being restricted by the PS2 - They can't even add new Auto Translator words anymore because of the PS2 VRam limitations. We already saw the disaster that FFXI was on Xbox 360 - The choppy performance, the delayed signals (Mobs spawned on 360 last, always, no exception, and actions were performed slower), the ultra frequent lockups in Besieged and Dynamis, the 5 FPS at Fafnir... It's not worth repeating that hassle just so it can bring the PC and PS3 versions down. Shared memory is just not suited to MMOs, it's ok for shooters because they don't hold a lot in VRam, but MMOs hold a TON of data that it can't be fighting the graphics for. That's why all the menus and data are stored online in FFXIV right now though, so the PS3 stores less on itself and streams more data = slower performance but more data.

The 360 is also limited by Microsoft, who controls their hardware and software much more than Sony, and SE said they didn't want to deal with those restrictions and Xbox Live nonsense. Sony doesn't really restrict, they just have high licensing costs - which have already been obtained by SE.
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#35 Apr 09 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
**
395 posts
To another poster, there is truth in that no MMO has recovered from a launch as bad as FFXIV, but in reality, as SE pointed out in an interview, none have TRIED to recover with enough power to be able to do so.

Let's look at a couple examples-
Vanguard: SOH - Horrible launch, ran out of money, absorbed by Sony who abandoned the project
FFXI - SE poured a bunch of money into it, and it recovered from an incredibly buggy launch thanks to loyal players who never gave up, and got around 500k active players (Not incredible but not terrible either). Mostly saved by the launch in the US and the PS2 version 6 months later.
Age of Conan - Horrible launch, extremely buggy, Funcom poured a bunch of money into it and made a rather exceptional game that nobody gave a sh*t about a year later, the game is on life support now.
Tabula Rasa: Decent game, good graphics fun gameplay, limited bugs, limited marketing and ultra repetitive. Game shut down completely.
Hellgate London: Good developers, buggy game, lack of content, incompatibilities, ultra repetitive and just plain annoying. Developers ran out of money and the game shut down, to be later reopened after being sold.


There are dozens of failed MMO examples but one thing stands out - SE was able to save FFXI from its rough launch.

Most failed MMOs that have bad launches, run out of money to pump out new content, and even if they somehow manage to get new content, they often don't have enough $$ to inform the public of said new content with advertising.

Say you launch a bad MMO, and you lose 90% of your playerbase, but then you fix the game - how will most of those players know to give it another try? They probably don't check the forums or news about the game anymore.

SE has an incredible opportunity though - Lots of money and dedication. When the PS3 version is released they will pump a bunch of money into advertising it, get the game reviewed again - possibly the PC version as well, encouraging people to try the game again and hopefully enjoy it enough to pay for it.
Most MMOs can't relaunch because they run out of money, well Yoshi-P and Sage Sundi said in an interview that SE is committed to saving this game and basically won't spare any expense. They fired the old team, put in a new team, and are giving them every tool they can to get this game rolling.

Have a little faith :P SE did save FFXI from itself, and it can save 14 as well. The PS3 version is really required though, as well as new television advertising, magazine articles, web banners, etc. And what they need to do is a little trickery for the PC players who quit - when the PS3 version comes out make the game P2P but give all old accounts a "Welcome back to FFXIV 30 days free game time" (while extending that to everyone playing now, yes its free now but marketing ploys always get people).

They should also have one of those Square Enix conventions right before the PS3 launch, inviting all the press, holding a large celebration, showing off new missions, dungeons, storyline moments, gameplay additions, and possibly an expansion, having cosplayers, Susan Calloway, etc. Square Enix has a massive marketing team, and that's really all you need sometimes to get people back into the game. Hot chicks helps too.



Edited, Apr 9th 2011 6:19pm by Eadieni
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#36 Apr 09 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,606 posts
Eadieni wrote:
Square Enix has a massive marketing team

Are you sure? I've only ever seen two SE games advertised on TV. One was KH2 and the other was FF XIII but it always ended with it mentioning it was available on the 360 so I wonder if MS didn't pay for that.
Eadieni wrote:
Hot chicks helps too.

Can't argue with that. lol
#37 Apr 09 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
626 posts
Eadieni wrote:
To another poster, there is truth in that no MMO has recovered from a launch as bad as FFXIV, but in reality, as SE pointed out in an interview, none have TRIED to recover with enough power to be able to do so.

Let's look at a couple examples-
Vanguard: SOH - Horrible launch, ran out of money, absorbed by Sony who abandoned the project
FFXI - SE poured a bunch of money into it, and it recovered from an incredibly buggy launch thanks to loyal players who never gave up, and got around 500k active players (Not incredible but not terrible either). Mostly saved by the launch in the US and the PS2 version 6 months later.
Age of Conan - Horrible launch, extremely buggy, Funcom poured a bunch of money into it and made a rather exceptional game that nobody gave a sh*t about a year later, the game is on life support now.
Tabula Rasa: Decent game, good graphics fun gameplay, limited bugs, limited marketing and ultra repetitive. Game shut down completely.
Hellgate London: Good developers, buggy game, lack of content, incompatibilities, ultra repetitive and just plain annoying. Developers ran out of money and the game shut down, to be later reopened after being sold.


There are dozens of failed MMO examples but one thing stands out - SE was able to save FFXI from its rough launch.

Most failed MMOs that have bad launches, run out of money to pump out new content, and even if they somehow manage to get new content, they often don't have enough $$ to inform the public of said new content with advertising.

Say you launch a bad MMO, and you lose 90% of your playerbase, but then you fix the game - how will most of those players know to give it another try? They probably don't check the forums or news about the game anymore.

SE has an incredible opportunity though - Lots of money and dedication. When the PS3 version is released they will pump a bunch of money into advertising it, get the game reviewed again - possibly the PC version as well, encouraging people to try the game again and hopefully enjoy it enough to pay for it.
Most MMOs can't relaunch because they run out of money, well Yoshi-P and Sage Sundi said in an interview that SE is committed to saving this game and basically won't spare any expense. They fired the old team, put in a new team, and are giving them every tool they can to get this game rolling.

Have a little faith :P SE did save FFXI from itself, and it can save 14 as well. The PS3 version is really required though, as well as new television advertising, magazine articles, web banners, etc. And what they need to do is a little trickery for the PC players who quit - when the PS3 version comes out make the game P2P but give all old accounts a "Welcome back to FFXIV 30 days free game time" (while extending that to everyone playing now, yes its free now but marketing ploys always get people).

They should also have one of those Square Enix conventions right before the PS3 launch, inviting all the press, holding a large celebration, showing off new missions, dungeons, storyline moments, gameplay additions, and possibly an expansion, having cosplayers, Susan Calloway, etc. Square Enix has a massive marketing team, and that's really all you need sometimes to get people back into the game. Hot chicks helps too.



Edited, Apr 9th 2011 6:19pm by Eadieni

hey pretty good post.
one thing i have to point out is that myself and others ive seen post have noted that FFXIVs current content is shallow and lackluster as any given comparison in early FFXI.
for me, windursts story itself is interesting, deep and thus pretty intruiging. i mean you got those towers that lead to underground ruins, opening 3 mage gates, avoiding beastmen, and of course remember-able characters like shantoto.
so far in uldah i have a little girl which i thought was a little boy at first with an anne of green gables personality, an archetype stuck up elezen dude villain, and a grey haired teen horribly designed. the story never lead me to any cool places or meet any interesting NPCs. the beastmen summoning ifrit and the conspiracy going on is all i really cared about so far.
also, correct me if im wrong, but doesnt windurst have more storyline missions from level 1-40 than uldah?
____________________________

#38 Apr 09 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,120 posts
Quote:
also, correct me if im wrong, but doesnt windurst have more storyline missions from level 1-40 than uldah?


Only the first few story quests are unique to the 3 cities. After that r15 one we're all doing the same quests starting with Fade to White.
____________________________

#39 Apr 10 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
Quote:
FFXI - SE poured a bunch of money into it, and it recovered from an incredibly buggy launch thanks to loyal players who never gave up, and got around 500k active players (Not incredible but not terrible either). Mostly saved by the launch in the US and the PS2 version 6 months later.


PS2 version launched first, FFXI was actually well received and liked it just had some server problems and it's players got 1 free month because of it, then went pay to play on the 2nd month and stayed that way. Remember it also launched when there was very little else out there MMO wise, WoW wasn't even out yet..and nothing good was on the horizon either.

So no, FFXI was never failing and turned around it was fine from launch aside from some basic server problems. The game itself was well received.

Also as others have said, Square do not advertise at all. They simply don't know how...or don't like to spend the money on it, if you expect them to advertise FFXIV for PS3 you will be dissapointed.
Quote:

To another poster, there is truth in that no MMO has recovered from a launch as bad as FFXIV, but in reality, as SE pointed out in an interview, none have TRIED to recover with enough power to be able to do so.


Quote:
Age of Conan - Horrible launch, extremely buggy, Funcom poured a bunch of money into it and made a rather exceptional game that nobody gave a sh*t about a year later, the game is on life support now.


Edited, Apr 10th 2011 3:10am by preludes

Edited, Apr 10th 2011 3:10am by preludes
____________________________
BANNED
#40 Apr 10 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Eadieni wrote:
No to the person who recommended Xbox 360.

As we saw with FFXIII on 360, it's far inferior to games that SE codes, Japan just isn't very good at coding 360 games, especially square enix (Star Ocean 4 anyone?). That would be setting FFXIV up for a FFXI style limitation. Especially since the 360 has shared gpu/ram, it will run into the same problems the PS2 FFXI version had at some point. Right now FFXI has essentially hit a wall, where they are saying new content is being restricted by the PS2 - They can't even add new Auto Translator words anymore because of the PS2 VRam limitations. We already saw the disaster that FFXI was on Xbox 360 - The choppy performance, the delayed signals (Mobs spawned on 360 last, always, no exception, and actions were performed slower), the ultra frequent lockups in Besieged and Dynamis, the 5 FPS at Fafnir... It's not worth repeating that hassle just so it can bring the PC and PS3 versions down. Shared memory is just not suited to MMOs, it's ok for shooters because they don't hold a lot in VRam, but MMOs hold a TON of data that it can't be fighting the graphics for. That's why all the menus and data are stored online in FFXIV right now though, so the PS3 stores less on itself and streams more data = slower performance but more data.

The 360 is also limited by Microsoft, who controls their hardware and software much more than Sony, and SE said they didn't want to deal with those restrictions and Xbox Live nonsense. Sony doesn't really restrict, they just have high licensing costs - which have already been obtained by SE.


I dont think ffxiv would do well on the 360 either. giving more people access isnt the problem anyways, there are tons of people who could play FFXIV if they wanted to, they just need to make it a game people want to play.

and for the record, SE did not make Star Ocean 4, tri ace did. the only 360 games that SE has actually developed themselves are FFXI, Last Remnant, and FFXIII
____________________________


#41 Apr 10 2011 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
**
370 posts
SE still has a huge "get out of jail free" card. When the game comes out on PS3 it will get all new reviews as if it were a new game. I still remember when FFXI got ported over to the PS3. On PC it was rated 9/10 but on PS3 it was rated 6/10 even though it was the same exact game. It got a lower score because reviewers said it wasn't original and that nothing extra was added. How ridiculous is that? Even if no one is still playing FFXIV anymore, when the new PS3 reviews come in everyone who played or even considered playing will give it another look.
____________________________
Thaumaturge/Archer/Marauder
http://xivpads.viion.co.uk/?id=1847776
Moogle Inc linkshell
http://www.moogleinc.com
Stand in front of me fool...I am a Thaumaturge
#42 Apr 10 2011 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
787 posts
Eadieni wrote:

Let's look at a couple examples-
Vanguard: SOH - Horrible launch, ran out of money, absorbed by Sony who abandoned the project
FFXI - SE poured a bunch of money into it, and it recovered from an incredibly buggy launch thanks to loyal players who never gave up, and got around 500k active players (Not incredible but not terrible either). Mostly saved by the launch in the US and the PS2 version 6 months later.
Age of Conan - Horrible launch, extremely buggy, Funcom poured a bunch of money into it and made a rather exceptional game that nobody gave a sh*t about a year later, the game is on life support now.


Very nice post. Once I left Vanguard, I remember getting an email from Sony with a code which gave me something like 3-6 months free play with EQ2. I took the offer since I felt I wasted my money with Vanguard. It would have been a nice gesture from Square to get a similar offer to play FFXI while they struggle to fix FFXIV.

As for the recovery of FFXI, perhaps it was more salvageable in the first place? IHMO with FFXIV, I think they were trying to break the MMORPG mold in several ways but it's going to take a lot of redesign work to get it back on track again. To me the whole magic system was a rushed after thought.
#43 Apr 10 2011 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,045 posts
Quote:
It would have been a nice gesture from Square to get a similar offer to play FFXI while they struggle to fix FFXIV.


Honestly I can't figure out what is going on with Square. Sometimes it seems like there is some big plan between the 2 games and other times it seems like the dev team behing FFXI and the dev team behind FFXIV are both trying to compete with each other.

Also they are kinda doing what you mentioned, since you pay no fee for FFXIV you are free to pay for FFXI sub and be no worse off. No way they would give you 2 MMO subscriptions for free.
____________________________
BANNED
#44 Apr 10 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
**
821 posts
By the time the PS3 version is launched, the game will be a lot better(hopefully) and the only that count's then is the new press critics in the console only gaming magazines and online platforms etc etc.

The big chance XIV has, is the fact that a second launch on a new platform will come with everything else...new reviews, new previews etc etc. THIS is the thing that can save it. Plus FF is a console game...it was and always will be and most of the fanbase is on consoles...so even if the game will stay the way it is right now...the amount of players coming from consoles will easily outnumber the current PC players.
#45 Apr 10 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,535 posts
Eadieni wrote:
As we saw with FFXIII on 360, it's far inferior to games that SE codes, Japan just isn't very good at coding 360 games, especially square enix (Star Ocean 4 anyone?). That would be setting FFXIV up for a FFXI style limitation. Especially since the 360 has shared gpu/ram, it will run into the same problems the PS2 FFXI version had at some point. Right now FFXI has essentially hit a wall, where they are saying new content is being restricted by the PS2 - They can't even add new Auto Translator words anymore because of the PS2 VRam limitations. We already saw the disaster that FFXI was on Xbox 360 - The choppy performance, the delayed signals (Mobs spawned on 360 last, always, no exception, and actions were performed slower), the ultra frequent lockups in Besieged and Dynamis, the 5 FPS at Fafnir... It's not worth repeating that hassle just so it can bring the PC and PS3 versions down. Shared memory is just not suited to MMOs, it's ok for shooters because they don't hold a lot in VRam, but MMOs hold a TON of data that it can't be fighting the graphics for. That's why all the menus and data are stored online in FFXIV right now though, so the PS3 stores less on itself and streams more data = slower performance but more data.


I see someone else already addressed the matter of who developed Star Ocean 4, so I won't belabor that point.

However, I would like to suggest that you refrain from discussing technical matters like the ones above - there's so much incorrect in there that it made my soul weep.

For starters, the PS2 does not have a unified memory architecture - the VRAM is completely separate from main system RAM, and is exclusively managed by the GPU (i.e. it's not even on the main system bus).

The issue with "PS2 limitations" has nothing to do with the system's memory architecture, and everything to do with the fact that the PS2 only has 32 MB of system RAM. A finite (and relatively small by modern standards) memory space simply cannot accommodate an expanding range of things that need to be held in RAM.

I could go on, but the point is this: basically everything you said that even remotely touches upon hardware (including how that hardware affects the software that runs on it) with the sole exception of "the 360 has shared gpu/ram" is dead wrong.
#46 Apr 10 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
**
395 posts
BastokFL wrote:
Eadieni wrote:
As we saw with FFXIII on 360, it's far inferior to games that SE codes, Japan just isn't very good at coding 360 games, especially square enix (Star Ocean 4 anyone?). That would be setting FFXIV up for a FFXI style limitation. Especially since the 360 has shared gpu/ram, it will run into the same problems the PS2 FFXI version had at some point. Right now FFXI has essentially hit a wall, where they are saying new content is being restricted by the PS2 - They can't even add new Auto Translator words anymore because of the PS2 VRam limitations. We already saw the disaster that FFXI was on Xbox 360 - The choppy performance, the delayed signals (Mobs spawned on 360 last, always, no exception, and actions were performed slower), the ultra frequent lockups in Besieged and Dynamis, the 5 FPS at Fafnir... It's not worth repeating that hassle just so it can bring the PC and PS3 versions down. Shared memory is just not suited to MMOs, it's ok for shooters because they don't hold a lot in VRam, but MMOs hold a TON of data that it can't be fighting the graphics for. That's why all the menus and data are stored online in FFXIV right now though, so the PS3 stores less on itself and streams more data = slower performance but more data.


I see someone else already addressed the matter of who developed Star Ocean 4, so I won't belabor that point.

However, I would like to suggest that you refrain from discussing technical matters like the ones above - there's so much incorrect in there that it made my soul weep.

For starters, the PS2 does not have a unified memory architecture - the VRAM is completely separate from main system RAM, and is exclusively managed by the GPU (i.e. it's not even on the main system bus).

The issue with "PS2 limitations" has nothing to do with the system's memory architecture, and everything to do with the fact that the PS2 only has 32 MB of system RAM. A finite (and relatively small by modern standards) memory space simply cannot accommodate an expanding range of things that need to be held in RAM.

I could go on, but the point is this: basically everything you said that even remotely touches upon hardware (including how that hardware affects the software that runs on it) with the sole exception of "the 360 has shared gpu/ram" is dead wrong.


Nice attempt at trolling but your using whats called selective reading.

It doesn't say that the PS2 has shared resources... I said the 360 did. Your using my comments against the 360 to use them as if I said them about the PS2 therefore changing my argument and turning yourself into a hideous troll.

And I said PS2s problems all came from Vram, something I've personally spoken to the owners of FFXI about in person.
His exact words were "The PS2 has run out of vram, and it's a limited resource, we can't add anything else to it without subtracting something else". They are the ones who used the words vram, Sage Sundi himself. In person.
Had a cigarette with him after the convention ended, nice guy. Apparently he got his job from working on Ultima Online.

The 360 has 512 ram which is shared with the gpu, meaning the ram and gpu will fight each other for control of that 512mb, so one could try to reach for 312 leaving 200 for the other. That's a problem for MMORPGs that hold a TON of data in the ram.
SE already said they had issues with the PS3 being insufficient, which has dedicated to each, and that's why so much of the game feels like its streaming.

Nice try on your trolling though.
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#47 Apr 11 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
sandpark wrote:
If the game gets fixed and becomes a great game, a buy to play model could very well sell 4 million boxes. I am not being optimistic or anything. Players buy millions of their offline titles, why would that be impossible for XIV if the game becomes great?


I like pears. A banana is also a fruit, but you can't just assume that because I like one fruit that I'll enjoy them all.

4 million is extremely optimistic. They haven't pulled 4 million subs for their games when they're actually fit to pay for. An MMO is an MMO and caters to a specific market. You can't lump the millions of people who play SE's offline games into this category because not all of them enjoy persistent online play.

sandpark wrote:
Also stop thinking of Square like some run of the mill developer. They are a huge company. Yoshida spoke the truth, not many companies could afford to do what they are doing. Maybe Sony, EA, Activision/Blizzard could also but not many other mmo makers.


I'll agree that they aren't a run of the mill dev, but looking at this offering makes them pale in comparison to one. Not many developers have the money to throw at a project already this far in the red, but even fewer are willing to waste the time and energy. Most devs would see that profit is so far into the future, if at all for this project that it just isn't worth sinking money into. The stockholders are already aware of this it would appear. Don't get me wrong though. I'd really like to see SE succeed, but I just feel that the time, energy and resources could be put to better use elsewhere.

Obiar wrote:
SE still has a huge "get out of jail free" card. When the game comes out on PS3 it will get all new reviews as if it were a new game. I still remember when FFXI got ported over to the PS3. On PC it was rated 9/10 but on PS3 it was rated 6/10 even though it was the same exact game. It got a lower score because reviewers said it wasn't original and that nothing extra was added. How ridiculous is that?


So ridiculous that it will happen again. When you release a game and then later re-release a game with the same content, it'll get lower scores. Don't bet on PS3 reviews being any higher unless it's bringing something new to the table.

Shezard wrote:
FF is a console game...it was and always will be and most of the fanbase is on consoles...so even if the game will stay the way it is right now...the amount of players coming from consoles will easily outnumber the current PC players.

You should research this. The majority of the fanbase playing on consoles reside in Japan only. NA and EU players preferred PC version of FFXI to PS2/Xbox combined. That ratio was about 2:1 so the majority of people who are playing in NA and EU markets have already tried it. If it happens at all, this big influx of players you're expecting to hit on PS3 launch will not change your playing experience unless you are fluent in Japanese. Also consider that many of the players who were most eager to play FFXIV took the plunge and purchased a PC to start with the initial launch of the game. Take a look at the "Pimp my rig" threads all over this and other FF forums and it's pretty clear to see that.

TL;DR

Console launch will not bring a significant amount of new or returning players to the game. Most of the people who were saying 'Ignore the reviews, MMO games are always improving over time' after PC launch will be changing their tune to 'Embrace the reviews now that the console has launched and the game is playable' when PS3 hits. This game will not live or die by the console launch. SE will support FFXIV regardless of if it turns a profit or not, but that will not determine if the game is enjoyable or successful.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 Apr 11 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
It's good you like bananas. How the **** do you know console players won't like a persistent online world?
There isn't any buy to play console mmos I know about. Do you know of one?
On top of that, there is no FF set in a persistent online world that is buy to pay or free to play. So to say that no ff fan would like to play one is just guesswork.
What is your favorite FF? I bet if that FF had an online new game plus you would play it and play it alot.
I know alot of friends who like rpgs, they like FF. But no matter what the game is. They will not pay a subscription to play. Most people like cheap or free deals yo.
It's why people download free mp3s, emulators, movies, etc.
I say again though. If the game becomes superb and doesn't remain in mediocrity and gets large subs. The pay 2 play model is best. If not buy to play is the answer and the payment model most console users are accustomed to.
Next answer may be.. Why are those FF fans not playing the free game now?
Answer:
It isn't on console yet and most pc users can't afford the high pc specs.
If the game gets awesome to play and in reviews. And if SE can find the right payment model for console users. XIV can elevate and be saved.

Edited, Apr 11th 2011 7:52pm by sandpark
#49 Apr 11 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
sandpark wrote:
It's good you like bananas. How the **** do you know console players won't like a persistent online world?

You fail and metaphors and reading comprehension. I said I like pears. I ******* hate bananas. They're both fruits. There are many people who like MMOs that don't care for single player RPGs and vice versa. Like pears and bananas, they are similar but not the same. How many copies of FFX sold? Then how many copies of FFXI? Note the difference. How many copies of FFXIII and now how many of FFXIV? Again, note the difference.

sandpark wrote:
There isn't any buy to play console mmos I know about. Do you know of one?

I don't know of any, but I don't play MMOs on a console. I'm one of the majority of US gamers who prefer PC gaming to console gaming when it comes to MMOs. Please try to understand that the majority of people who play FFXI in the US do not play on PS2 or Xbox, they use PC already.

PC is a vastly superior platform(in my opinion) and the costs to upgrade a PC are probably along the same lines as purchasing a PS3, not to mention the peripherals and games to go along with it. There are also the obvious benefits that computers have over consoles and that alone could warrant spending the extra cash on one. FYI, the computer build/upgrade threads in this forum are some of the largest to date. That speaks for itself.

As for subscription vs paying for discs and expansions, with the state the game is in now they will never recover their investment unless they at least get players excited about playing. The best way to do this is to make the client a free download instead of selling boxes. It's pretty **** obvious that there isn't much of that going on lately anyway. By removing any fee for this game you invite more players to try it out. This will bring in new people who wouldn't normally have paid for the box.

I'll be completely honest here, there are quite a few free games I would rather play over FFXIV. The benefits are that you don't have servers that feel half empty all the time, you have more people creating more feedback about how to make the game better. If/When this game is ever in condition to go into subscription service(likely to be the first expansion), you bundle the subscription with the expansion.

Players who have already paid for the box would receive this expansion for free with exception of the monthly subscription fee and players who downloaded the free client would be required to buy the expansion box and subscription. More players and feedback they desperately need now, and potential for more players down the road. Not only that, but by opening up F2P you give people the option of playing more than one game.

Your subscription MMO will then be like your old lady. The ***** you married that makes you grind your time away trying to support. FFXIV will be like the hot neighbor that always takes you out to lunch, but isn't putting out so you don't feel bad like you're cheating or anything :D



____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#50 Apr 12 2011 at 12:08 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
970 posts
At: Mr/mrs mcnasty:
Ok I misread your metaphor but my reading comprehension doesn't fail. You again try compare sales between their offline titles and their online. Neither of the online FF are buy to play or free to play on the console. So your comparison holds no water.
I agree the PC is a superior platform for not just mmos but fps and strategy games too. If you want to run XIV at maximum capacity on a pc. It cost almost the price of a ps3 just to upgrade the cpu. If a person is buying a pc from scratch. The prices are not even close. While a ps3 may be inferior for mmos. All games are playable at the same efficiency. No upgrades required. Consoles have a larger user base in general over PC gamers. No company has been able to take advantage of that opportunity in mmos as of yet though. Maybe SE will be the first?

I know PC is the dominant mmo platform as this point. But where is your proof that US PC games outnumber the total console users in XI? More than that, who cares how many XI players play on a PC. This is XIV and until the PS3 releases. You don't know if the PC will be the dominant platform in terms of platform on XIV lol.
Any console user is used to the buy to play model. When they buy Dragon Age, there is no proof that the game will be good. They buy the box and if the downloadable expansions seem good or worthy. They buy them and if not they dont. But once you buy the disc or expansion. It is yours and no one charges you a cent until the next expansion. In a free to play model, most users always deem a game as fubar and usually feel any microtransactions are just nickle and dime tactics. And they usually question, the worth or hate that you start buying your way thru the game.

I like some games more than others too. I like Dc Universe but not enough to subscribe via pay to play. If it was buy to play, I would buy the game and play when I feel like and log off when the game bores me. Any console rpg or FF fans would approach the game the same way.
Guy 1- Hey did you read the reviews on XIV for the ps3. They say the game is a 9 and is alot of fun to play.
Guy 2- Yea man I'm into FF but mmos are only for people with too much free time. And I am not paying to play one game online. I already pay enough for psn, my internet, and my car payment.
Guy 1- You only have to buy the disc, and you don't pay anything unless you wanna buy a future download. Also you can play when you feel like or whatever you own the game dude.
Guy 2- I only need to buy the box? Hmmm, I'm have to try it out.
If SE delivers on a full experience and immerses them into an mmo.
Guy 1 and 2- Holy crap lol, I'm glad I bought this game. It's like a dream come true, a final fantasy that never ends.
And bam you draw in people who like console rpgs or FF games in general. And if they really hit it out of the park and reach million plus users. Then every other mmo starts trying to port over with dollar signs in their eyes.

One more time. Pay to play is the best model if your sub base skyrockets. But if not buy to play is the console pay model players are used to.
#51 Apr 12 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
sandpark wrote:
You again try compare sales between their offline titles and their online. Neither of the online FF are buy to play or free to play on the console. So your comparison holds no water.

No u! I didn't compare the online and offline games until you did. Your direct quote...

sandpark wrote:
Players buy millions of their offline titles, why would that be impossible for XIV if the game becomes great?


That's the only reason I drew out the comparison and showed you why this was highly unlikely. Not impossible, but a bad comparison. One that you made yourself.

sandpark wrote:
I know PC is the dominant mmo platform as this point. But where is your proof that US PC games outnumber the total console users in XI? More than that, who cares how many XI players play on a PC. This is XIV and until the PS3 releases. You don't know if the PC will be the dominant platform in terms of platform on XIV lol.

I said that the number of players in the US who prefer the PC version of FFXI vs the PS2/Xbox versions is a ratio of 2:1. I'll have to find the article on it. Its a few years old, but a few years ago was the peak of FFXI's subscription totals. Because the PS3 version hasn't been released yet we have no idea that this will remain true, but knowing the popularity of consoles is dominant in Japan, it seems likely.

The bottom line is that SE needs to populate FFXIV with players. The nature of MMOs is that the servers are populated and you feel like you're a part of a thriving world. The longer this game goes on with a low playerbase, the more people are inclined to leave.

Think of FFXIV as a brand new club. Your friends tell you it looks amazing, but the local papers give it horrible reviews. The decor is awesome, the music is great and the beer is free! The problem is there is no dancefloor, no pool tables or foosball and no hot girls. Nothing to do and not many people to do it with even if there was. How long do you hang out here wondering when the fun starts? Would you pay to enter this club everytime you went? Would you pay a one-time membership fee and just go until you got bored?

This is my point about F2P. If it was free to get in to this 'club', more people would come just to check it out regardless of how bad the reviews are because they have nothing to lose. The more people show up, the higher your chances of meeting someone interesting. More people also brings more feedback to make this club a place people want to be. It's win for the club and win for the patrons and it makes total sense.

Box sale model doesn't work for MMO games of this scale. The amount of money this company has spent developing over the years and the money they will spend to maintain it and expand will surpass what they are capable of making selling boxes. If you want regular updates, you have to pay for them. Players don't want a game that only updates whenever the next expansion releases. Not in an MMO.





Edited, Apr 12th 2011 5:29am by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (22)