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FFXIV's only chance... free PS3 client?Follow

#52 Apr 12 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Like pears and bananas, they are similar but not the same. How many copies of FFX sold? Then how many copies of FFXI? Note the difference. How many copies of FFXIII and now how many of FFXIV? Again, note the difference.

Hmm, if this isn't you comparing sales between the offline titles and the online, What is it?

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Think of FFXIV as a brand new club. Your friends tell you it looks amazing, but the local papers give it horrible reviews. The decor is awesome, the music is great and the beer is free! The problem is there is no dancefloor, no pool tables or foosball and no hot girls. Nothing to do and not many people to do it with even if there was. How long do you hang out here wondering when the fun starts? Would you pay to enter this club everytime you went? Would you pay a one-time membership fee and just go until you got bored?

Only if SE does their job right now. Not only will your friends tell you it looks amazing. The newspapers will also tell you it's amazing.

It's true there is not enough dancefloors, no pool tables, foosball, and maybe no hot girls. Pay to play would equal paying everytime to enter. So no to that one.
I could see myself paying a one time membership fee, have access to all activities for free and go only when bored. But if we put f2p in this analogy. You don't pay to enter, but you pay for every song that gets played, every beer you drink, every lime you eat, every game of pool. F2p isn't really free.You get to enter for free, but to particpate in anything you want. You have to pay for everything you touch or play with most of the time. Who wouldn't want to go into a bar(buy to play)where you pay entry and all the beer, music, pool is free?

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Box sale model doesn't work for MMO games of this scale. The amount of money this company has spent developing over the years and the money they will spend to maintain it and expand will surpass what they are capable of making selling boxes. If you want regular updates, you have to pay for them. Players don't want a game that only updates whenever the next expansion releases. Not in an MMO.

Actually it has worked. Guild Wars sold 6 million boxes and it didn't even have the heritage or big budget that SE has at their disposal. Guild Wars 2 is following the same buy to play model. And low and behold they have won numerous accolades even before launch for innovating and being most impressive. On Mmorpg.com GW2 is and has maintained the largest hype of any mmo this or last year. The best thing about b2p is since their are no additional fees until the next expansion. You can play it alongside those other mmos you may like more. So this pretty much proves that an mmo can be successful if they go the buy to play route.

#53 Apr 12 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
At: Mr/mrs mcnasty:
Ok I misread your metaphor but my reading comprehension doesn't fail. You again try compare sales between their offline titles and their online. Neither of the online FF are buy to play or free to play on the console. So your comparison holds no water.
I agree the PC is a superior platform for not just mmos but fps and strategy games too. If you want to run XIV at maximum capacity on a pc. It cost almost the price of a ps3 just to upgrade the cpu. If a person is buying a pc from scratch. The prices are not even close. While a ps3 may be inferior for mmos. All games are playable at the same efficiency. No upgrades required. Consoles have a larger user base in general over PC gamers. No company has been able to take advantage of that opportunity in mmos as of yet though. Maybe SE will be the first?

I know PC is the dominant mmo platform as this point. But where is your proof that US PC games outnumber the total console users in XI? More than that, who cares how many XI players play on a PC. This is XIV and until the PS3 releases. You don't know if the PC will be the dominant platform in terms of platform on XIV lol.
Any console user is used to the buy to play model. When they buy Dragon Age, there is no proof that the game will be good. They buy the box and if the downloadable expansions seem good or worthy. They buy them and if not they dont. But once you buy the disc or expansion. It is yours and no one charges you a cent until the next expansion. In a free to play model, most users always deem a game as fubar and usually feel any microtransactions are just nickle and dime tactics. And they usually question, the worth or hate that you start buying your way thru the game.

I like some games more than others too. I like Dc Universe but not enough to subscribe via pay to play. If it was buy to play, I would buy the game and play when I feel like and log off when the game bores me. Any console rpg or FF fans would approach the game the same way.
Guy 1- Hey did you read the reviews on XIV for the ps3. They say the game is a 9 and is alot of fun to play.
Guy 2- Yea man I'm into FF but mmos are only for people with too much free time. And I am not paying to play one game online. I already pay enough for psn, my internet, and my car payment.
Guy 1- You only have to buy the disc, and you don't pay anything unless you wanna buy a future download. Also you can play when you feel like or whatever you own the game dude.
Guy 2- I only need to buy the box? Hmmm, I'm have to try it out.
If SE delivers on a full experience and immerses them into an mmo.
Guy 1 and 2- Holy crap lol, I'm glad I bought this game. It's like a dream come true, a final fantasy that never ends.
And bam you draw in people who like console rpgs or FF games in general. And if they really hit it out of the park and reach million plus users. Then every other mmo starts trying to port over with dollar signs in their eyes.

One more time. Pay to play is the best model if your sub base skyrockets. But if not buy to play is the console pay model players are used to.


The game is a 9...... You do have a lot of hope dont you ? A 9 ? HAHAHAHA Not even wow is a 9 <.< why would this garbage be a 9 ?
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#54 Apr 12 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Default
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Why not? If the ps3 review comes out polished with dynamic content, raids, an improved class system, an improved combat system, less clunky interface, in other words polished.
SE does storytelling and graphics a cut above the rest including Rift or WoW.
I don't see anything stopping the game from being a 9.
#55 Apr 12 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Hmm, if this isn't you comparing sales between the offline titles and the online, What is it?

Again, it was you who brought up the comparison between online and offline. This is simply the answer to your question and points out why there is not a relation between their online and offline games in terms of how many people are likely to purchase them. Do you think about this stuff before you type it?

sandpark wrote:
You don't pay to enter, but you pay for every song that gets played, every beer you drink, every lime you eat, every game of pool. F2p isn't really free.

Yeah, actually it is. If they made the client a free download and there was no monthly fee, the game would be free. My idea only involves payment once the game improves. It's a simple concept. When you cannot provide a service that people will pay for, you provide those services for free. If at some point the value of services increase, you start charging.

sandpark wrote:
Guild Wars sold 6 million boxes and it didn't even have the heritage or big budget that SE has at their disposal. Guild Wars 2 is following the same buy to play model. And low and behold they have won numerous accolades even before launch for innovating and being most impressive... So this pretty much proves that an mmo can be successful if they go the buy to play route.

MMOs can be successful just selling boxes, but unless your game is wildly popular like GW has been, you will not be able to maintain consistent updates and added content outside of expansions. FFXIV is a bad example because the content is lacking, but take a look at FFXI for comparison. Content is continuously updated and added every few months and expansions sprawl out over the course of a few years in some cases.

This is only possible if you either charge a subscription fee or you have enough people paying up front that you can support it. GW is the WoW of F2P in the sense that they pretty much control that market now. If GW only had as many players as FFXI has subscriptions then you wouldn't see the updates rolling in nearly as much as they do, if at all. Regardless of which model you choose, you need to have a good sized population and FFXIV doesn't have that. There is a very big difference between being excited about a game and being excited about the potential of a game.


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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 Apr 12 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
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No f2p isn't really free no matter how you try and swing it. You can't experience content from beginning to end without springing some dough to see more of the advanced content.

Guild Wars2 is the most successful buy to play currently. But it doesn't own one percent of the console market. It is pc only buddy. And it wasn't wildly popular at launch. Since it was their first in house mmo. No one could say if the game was going to be a success or bust before time played out.

It seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree. But let me remind you. The pc launch has no bearing on the ps3 launch. Stop bringing that into the picture. If the ps3 gets reviews in the 8-9 area. And people tell them the game is fun and polished as well. It can sell just as well as any title be it offline or online if the payment model is right. So this "good size population" needs to be built just like it does for any game. And yea, whether you believe it or not. Alot of players are not hip to paying subscription fees.
#57 Apr 12 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
No f2p isn't really free no matter how you try and swing it. You can't experience content from beginning to end without springing some dough to see more of the advanced content.

Guild Wars2 is the most successful buy to play currently. But it doesn't own one percent of the console market. It is pc only buddy. And it wasn't wildly popular at launch. Since it was their first in house mmo. No one could say if the game was going to be a success or bust before time played out.

It seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree. But let me remind you. The pc launch has no bearing on the ps3 launch. Stop bringing that into the picture. If the ps3 gets reviews in the 8-9 area. And people tell them the game is fun and polished as well. It can sell just as well as any title be it offline or online if the payment model is right. So this "good size population" needs to be built just like it does for any game. And yea, whether you believe it or not. Alot of players are not hip to paying subscription fees.


Really, you're just throwing more hypotheticals onto your argument. IF the PS3 version comes out and somehow its a MMO game of the year, and IF SE can somehow afford to run servers updates without monthly fees, yes of course everything in the world will be peachy keen. Neither of those are going to happen. SE developed and spent on this game anticipating monthly fees. Its worked into their price model, guild wars did fine just selling boxes because they did their price analysis and knew they could afford it. they spent less development and they had cheaper to run servers, and their updates are almost always just number tweaks. they also went in later and added micro transactions.

You're also assuming that there are just that many people itching to play an MMO on the PS3. Even if its free, its a genre that most of the gaming populations find boring. If everything goes the way you're saying, sure it would all work out fantastic, but you'd be delusional to think that this game can get that kind of ratings, be profitable without a monthly fee, and that there are several millions of people out there willing to pay for the box.



Edited, Apr 12th 2011 3:24pm by KujaKoF
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#58 Apr 12 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
No f2p isn't really free no matter how you try and swing it.

If they made the client downloadable and they're not charging a monthly service, it's free. I don't have to try to swing that. Free is free.

sandpark wrote:
Guild Wars2 is the most successful buy to play currently. But it doesn't own one percent of the console market.

They don't need to own a percent of the console market. Compared to the PC market, the console market is a drop in the bucket and hardly worth the time to code and develop. This is what you seem to not be understanding. There are not 6 million people lined up to play GW2 if it were going to be released to a console. PC is a far more popular format for MMOs and rightly so, it just makes more sense to design and code them only for PC.

sandpark wrote:
It seems we are just going to have to agree to disagree. But let me remind you. The pc launch has no bearing on the ps3 launch. Stop bringing that into the picture.

A failed launch of any game has a negative impact on any future plans for that game. In FFXIV the PC players will be sharing servers with PS3 players so because they're not totally isolated, it's stupid to think there will be no impact. The sales for FFXIV were already small, but considering that people are leaving in droves and there has yet to even be a release date set for the game on this platform, you bet your *** it'll have an effect. ****, there were people who don't have or can't afford PC who will not be playing the game because PC players have a 6 months and growing head start. Do you really think there is no consequence at all for a failed launch when a game is considered for port to another platform? Really? Think about that. It's a gigantic **** stain on your white trousers. Hard not to focus on that.

Quote:
If the ps3 gets reviews in the 8-9 area. And people tell them the game is fun and polished as well. It can sell just as well as any title be it offline or online if the payment model is right. So this "good size population" needs to be built just like it does for any game. And yea, whether you believe it or not. Alot of players are not hip to paying subscription fees.

Your whole argument is based on a huge 'what if'. I don't think you're being reasonable or objective about exactly what it would take for this game to come from failed launch to 9/10. Even if you do, you should know that it won't be ready any time soon. The latest list of dev notes is riddled 'assess' this and 'evaluate' that. Those are not specific changes, they're areas of the game they know need to be worked on and that work has barely started. If it ever happens, it will be some time before this game is ready to receive a 9/10 review.

No one likes to spend their hard earned money on anything, let alone something they don't feel is valuable enough to deserve it. FFXIV falls squarely into the 'I'm not paying for that ****' category. The success of this game will not be whether or not they can pull a profit out of it. If you've read anything recently from SE, it's the furthest thing from their mind right now. The success of this game will be regaining the trust of the loyal SE and FF fans and maintaining a high enough population on servers that they don't just decide to shut down.

I appreciate that SE wants to keep FF going at all costs and is willing to do so, but as with any company they are in business to make money. There is a line that has been drawn that neither you or I can see, but it is very real to SE.




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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 Apr 13 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Default
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As you can see I never once set a timetable for the ps3 release. What you both fail to see in my argument. Is if SE doesn't think they can get a review anywhere close to the numbers I am proposing. There won't be a ps3 release. It is that simple, if they don't fix everything the pc review got it's *** handed to it for. It won't release on ps3.
So if the release has everything it got bad scores for fixed. It will get those scores needed. I am not being delusional, it's simple nail it and sell big or shut your servers down.
There has never been a pc mmo only that scored so low and recovered and then went on to be very succesful.

Ok, Let me reiterate further on what I speak of. If White Knight Chronicles 2 or GW2 released staggered on different platforms. The PC version got released first with 4.5 score. Then it released on the xbox 360 and received a 4.2 score. But then it released on the ps3 6 months later and got everything ironed out receiving a 8.3 score. And the buzz was that the game had better graphics, fixed progression, no bugs and fixed gameplay just an absolute blast to play. If the experience on the ps3 is great. Is it going to matter to you how the game launched on other platforms if there is many ps3 players playing along with you? It will not matter to the casual rpg player, I can assure you that.

Mmos are not boring. They are becoming boring lately. because most of them are copying over the same battle mechanics, quest hub progression, endgame scenes, removing all twitch, etc. This same thing is happening to the fps genre, but because of the pay model and fps usually requiring good motor skills unless you use bots. That genre can cope with it more. Another big reason I think the fantasy rpg genre is becoming muddled. Is too many companies are ignoring character progression and focusing too hard on the endgame treadmill. RPG have the biggest room for being innovative and variety in systems. But often they choose to do what the guy next door is doing. And this is the main thing that might lead me to leave the mmo genre altogether. It is obviously stupid in the offline worlds for sure.

PLayers are complaining about character uniqueness or repetitive animations. I say they should be demanding unique character progression and story even more than those 1st two because that is the heart of an rpg. Do you like reading a book where the story is the same every readthrough minus the main character using a few new fighting techniques? Yea, me neither. SE dabbled into more deeper meaningful character progression with class quests. But there are far too few and actual spells or skills should be unlocked via questing not all obtained via marks. I want a personal story that is unique everytime I progress a different class. Endgame is an inevitability that will come someday. But I am the rpg player who savors and enjoys the journey there.
#60 Apr 13 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
Is if SE doesn't think they can get a review anywhere close to the numbers I am proposing. There won't be a ps3 release. It is that simple, if they don't fix everything the pc review got it's *** handed to it for. It won't release on ps3.

The longer that takes, the less and less likely people are to buy the game regardless of the subscription type. Capeesh?

You took a crazy tangent away from the original discussion so I'll let you go ahead and shoot off into space. Have fun out there.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#61 Apr 13 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
sandpark wrote:
As you can see I never once set a timetable for the ps3 release. What you both fail to see in my argument. Is if SE doesn't think they can get a review anywhere close to the numbers I am proposing. There won't be a ps3 release. It is that simple, if they don't fix everything the pc review got it's *** handed to it for. It won't release on ps3.
So if the release has everything it got bad scores for fixed. It will get those scores needed. I am not being delusional, it's simple nail it and sell big or shut your servers down.
There has never been a pc mmo only that scored so low and recovered and then went on to be very succesful.

Ok, Let me reiterate further on what I speak of. If White Knight Chronicles 2 or GW2 released staggered on different platforms. The PC version got released first with 4.5 score. Then it released on the xbox 360 and received a 4.2 score. But then it released on the ps3 6 months later and got everything ironed out receiving a 8.3 score. And the buzz was that the game had better graphics, fixed progression, no bugs and fixed gameplay just an absolute blast to play. If the experience on the ps3 is great. Is it going to matter to you how the game launched on other platforms if there is many ps3 players playing along with you? It will not matter to the casual rpg player, I can assure you that.

Mmos are not boring. They are becoming boring lately. because most of them are copying over the same battle mechanics, quest hub progression, endgame scenes, removing all twitch, etc. This same thing is happening to the fps genre, but because of the pay model and fps usually requiring good motor skills unless you use bots. That genre can cope with it more. Another big reason I think the fantasy rpg genre is becoming muddled. Is too many companies are ignoring character progression and focusing too hard on the endgame treadmill. RPG have the biggest room for being innovative and variety in systems. But often they choose to do what the guy next door is doing. And this is the main thing that might lead me to leave the mmo genre altogether. It is obviously stupid in the offline worlds for sure.

PLayers are complaining about character uniqueness or repetitive animations. I say they should be demanding unique character progression and story even more than those 1st two because that is the heart of an rpg. Do you like reading a book where the story is the same every readthrough minus the main character using a few new fighting techniques? Yea, me neither. SE dabbled into more deeper meaningful character progression with class quests. But there are far too few and actual spells or skills should be unlocked via questing not all obtained via marks. I want a personal story that is unique everytime I progress a different class. Endgame is an inevitability that will come someday. But I am the rpg player who savors and enjoys the journey there.


I agree, the chance of a PS3 release looks bleak, and personally I feel its a bad investment for the company, depending on how much of the work is already done.

Second, simply fixing everything thats wrong won't get the game a 9. Fixing whats wrong will get the game a 6-7, for being average, forgettable. Being a good game will get it the 8-9 you're suggesting, and FFXIV is currently not one.

Lastly, like I said and you misunderstood, MMOs are a small genre. Most people do not like them. 6 million people were willing to buy FFXIII because it was an accessible RPG they could spend 40-60 hours on in their spare time. That many people will not buy an MMO that requires large sittings and hundreds to thousands of hours to experience most of the game, no matter how good it is.

I actually get a lot of your points, you're just going a little overboard with them.
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#62 Apr 13 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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sandpark wrote:
It's good you like bananas. How the **** do you know console players won't like a persistent online world?
There isn't any buy to play console mmos I know about. Do you know of one?
Edited, Apr 11th 2011 7:52pm by sandpark


*Cough* FFXI (PS2, Xbox 360, PC) *Cough* Subscription
DC Universe (PS3, PC) Subscription
Phantasy Star Online (Xbox, PC, DC) Subscription
Phantasy Star Universe (Xbox 360, PS2, PC) Subscription
Everquest Online Adventures (PS2 Exclusive) Subscription
Free Realms (PS3, PC) Free

The problem though with buying an MMO and having it be free for life, is that they suck.
Guild Wars didn't have a lot of depth to it. It really had ****** console like gameplay, not rich gameplay.
You had limited controls, no jumping or swimming, and you had 8 abilities (which could be changed) and some PVP.

The thing is though, you never had grinding in guild wars. It takes you 1 day to go from Level 1 to Level 20, or you make a PVP character and start out at level 20. You don't have to ... live in their world and level from 1 to 90 grinding mobs. This way, guild wars became less about content and more about meaningless grind and PVP. You're grinding to get abilities, but you have no sense of accomplishment except for an FPS style ladder match - because everyone is level 20, everyone has the same gear and weapons, you can't stand out in guild wars.

Guild Wars is really more akin to a First Person Shooter than it is to a conventional RPG. You have no real gear farming, because everyone uses the same gear at level 20, it all has the same stats. If you buy the collectors edition you start out with the best weapons.

So, a subscription MMO gets you way more content because of the amount of time it takes every month to release hours upon hours of new content. That, would be why FFXIV isn't charging right now, because they can't live up to that obligation yet.

Edited, Apr 13th 2011 7:06pm by Eadieni
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