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#1 Apr 09 2011 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry its not FF14 specific, but I found this article on BBC about gold farmers... I can't believe they're actually supporting this! At one point it states that 20% of the gold they gather is stolen from hacked accounts. But then they state that the revenue would be great for their development!

Yes, the revenue you get from stealing this is great for development! Hurray! /endsarcasm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13012041
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#2 Apr 09 2011 at 5:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Autumnfire wrote:
Sorry its not FF14 specific, but I found this article on BBC about gold farmers... I can't believe they're actually supporting this! At one point it states that 20% of the gold they gather is stolen from hacked accounts. But then they state that the revenue would be great for their development!

Yes, the revenue you get from stealing this is great for development! Hurray! /endsarcasm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13012041

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#3 Apr 09 2011 at 5:46 AM Rating: Excellent
...You know I possibly wouldn't be as against RMT if they didn't bot and hack, if they all had to make the money legit and they didn't comprimise the fun of the majority of players then I could side with the article. However, they don't and they never will. Discconect them from the net, destroy their bank accounts, destroy the buyers. Guess that'll never happen either...

*EDIT* I took these yesterday, this is as good as any thread to post them in

Screenshot

Screenshot

A good reason to be careful about giving your buddy passes away to strangers

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 11:55am by PerrinofSylph
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#4 Apr 09 2011 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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This whole situation from RMT farmers to account theft is caused by the players and the MMO compnaies. The people in 3rd world countries are in horrible RL positions and honestly if I was in that situation I would take advantage of players/stupid companies to feed my family too.

The companies need to realise a large portion of players want to be able to buy ingame money so they themselves should sell it or make games where the money isn't as important. Players will always buy gil, even though it ruins the game experience and leads to game account thefts etc.

Amazed me they really don't go into ingame money selling as part of the service, FFXIV for instance could make decent money from it to recoupe it's dev costs and indeed MMO's would become a lot more profitable too.

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#5 Apr 09 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Default
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I will never feel bad for people who had "their gaming experience ruined" by gold farmers.
#6 Apr 09 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Wait.. encouraging..? Have they gone crazy..? so shall we begin stealing for the development of our own countries..? .-.
Illegal activities should never be promoted.. no matter if somebody makes a living on it.. there are honest ways to make money..

And Perrin, I see the situation is almost identical on Trabia.. I do always report them anyways..

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 9:55am by KaineGestalt
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#7 Apr 09 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
Wolfums wrote:
I will never feel bad for people who had "their gaming experience ruined" by gold farmers.


Care to elaborate? I respond to your general statement with one of my own: Hopefully RMT will be crowding/monopolizing all of your prefered camps and content for the rest of your MMO gaming life...
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#8 Apr 09 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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I personally could care less if some warehouse wants to hire 20 people to go farm for gold, then sell it online. It really does not do anything damaging to the in game economy that 20 random people anywhere who just like to farm alot. If the gold is made via in game means, its simply running the game's economy closer to max capacity. Now I get people are upset because their own buying power goes down, who wouldn't be, but its in no way unfair to them.

I do have a huge problem with stealing accounts though, and unfortunately thats how the 'industry' is going. Botting doesn't seem to happen all that often anymore, because its less efficient than plain stealing. I had my wow account stolen, took about a week to fix, and I actually ended up in better shape than before I was stolen, so I do actually trust in wow's customer service regarding hackings.
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#9 Apr 09 2011 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
The people in 3rd world countries are in horrible RL positions and honestly if I was in that situation I would take advantage of players/stupid companies to feed my family too.


I once read an article about RMT in a particular Chinese city. They were all kids in their late teens and early 20's who just took up RMT as a summer job for some extra money... In the documented cases, the RMT just didn't feel like working a different job, it really had nothing to do with "horrible RL conditions" (although I'm sure some of them somewhere have to do with that).

But then that brings me to my next point:

Do you really think these people who are quad-boxing Final Fantasy 14 are struggling that badly? Even on low settings, you need a decent computer (or, in PerrinofSylph's screenshots, four or five of them) and a good internet connection. If they really "needed food for their families," I'd say they could cut back on internet, computers, and electricity first. XD

In many cases, RMT farms are managed by a single guy who owns a dozen or so computers himself, in which case most of the profits go to him, not these "poor, struggling families."

Really, my point is that you really have no idea who's behind the RMT. It could be a generally well-to-do guy who bots for some extra cash, it could be a poor family who can somehow afford nothing but good computers. What can be said for sure is that supporting RMT is supporting some combination of unnecessarily-bad working conditions, douche-bags who ruin MMOs, poor people who need money, and less-poor-people who want money.

Moral relativity is all well and good, but I still think buying free-trade helps more struggling people people than buying from free-gold.com. I'd rather help build sustainable farms than sustainable gold-farms, anyway.
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#10 Apr 09 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Really, my point is that you really have no idea who's behind the RMT. It could be a generally well-to-do guy who bots for some extra cash, it could be a poor family who can somehow afford nothing but good computers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5Yxe6UVv4

These people dont work for themselves. They go to the "office" and put the hours in, they dont own their own kit.

Generally I frown upon the whole gold farming business but it doesn't bother me all that much. Account thefts and hacking is undefendable though.
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#11 Apr 09 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kordain wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Really, my point is that you really have no idea who's behind the RMT. It could be a generally well-to-do guy who bots for some extra cash, it could be a poor family who can somehow afford nothing but good computers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho5Yxe6UVv4

These people dont work for themselves. They go to the "office" and put the hours in, they dont own their own kit.

Generally I frown upon the whole gold farming business but it doesn't bother me all that much. Account thefts and hacking is undefendable though.


Here are a few quotes that I think are particularly important from that video:

At 2:28: "we are playing... not just for money, but also for fun."
At 3:37: "The company takes care of food and housing... it feels like a college dorm."
At 5:46: "If we can't [make money], at least we are happy playing together."

Now that video showed several different RMT operations, but the unifying commonality is that they're all just people who feel like playing/botting games for money rather than doing something else. Maybe it pays well, maybe it doesn't; I suppose it depends upon how successful they are. Some of those RMT are probably dropouts, some are just kids taking a break from school, etc.

It just sucks that their "fun job" is all about hurting the economies and otherwise detracting from other people's "fun games." :\
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#12 Apr 09 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Care to elaborate? I respond to your general statement with one of my own: Hopefully RMT will be crowding/monopolizing all of your prefered camps and content for the rest of your MMO gaming life...


Because gaming a luxury for me, and for them it's something that's probably keeping them from starving. I grew up on the bottom rungs of society in post communist Romania. If selling virtual goods existed in the early 90's and I had a computer, I probably would have been doing it.


I can also put down a game if I feel that RMT is hurting my gaming experience. But in reality, RMT is such a non issue for well designed MMOs, that nobody gives a ****. RMT is only a hot issue with the FFXI and FFXIV crowd because the economic model that SE put in blows for both games. Spoilers: RMT is not what ruined the economy in FFXI.

Good job on the directed personal attack though, douche.
#13 Apr 09 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Care to elaborate? I respond to your general statement with one of my own: Hopefully RMT will be crowding/monopolizing all of your prefered camps and content for the rest of your MMO gaming life...


Because gaming a luxury for me, and for them it's something that's probably keeping them from starving. I grew up on the bottom rungs of society in post communist Romania. If selling virtual goods existed in the early 90's and I had a computer, I probably would have been doing it.


I can also put down a game if I feel that RMT is hurting my gaming experience. But in reality, RMT is such a non issue for well designed MMOs, that nobody gives a sh*t. RMT is only a hot issue with the FFXI and FFXIV crowd because the economic model that SE put in blows for both games. Spoilers: RMT is not what ruined the economy in FFXI.

Good job on the directed personal attack though, douche.

fact, most gamers outside of FFXI/FFXIV have never heard R.M.T. they know people sell gold, but the absolute hatred for gold sellers are from FFXI.
i found this out because both my WoW gamer friends, ingame guilds in WoW and Rift were baffled as to what i was ******** about.
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#14 Apr 09 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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I really have no issue with the base idea of RMT selling to lazy people, or to people for whatever stupid reasoning chose a game they had no time to play.

It's the tactics that make RMT a prolem. Anyone that played XI, which was accidently designed as an RMT promised land due to the ability to monopolize/block content and/or mobs, as well as HELM targets, knows the trouble they (RMT) can and gladly WILL cause players just to make a buck. Couple in the rampant stealing accounts from the very market they wish to target for customers, and the "poor Chinese peasants just trying to earn an honest living" image is quickly shattered, and replaced with a "mob" style image. You know, steal "your" stuff and for all intents and purposes sell it back to "you" - "you" being the MMO community.

RMT aren't to be pitied, they are to be watched carefully, and wiped from the games that they show any willingness/capability of griefing . They've shown time and time again, they will steal, spam, block content, phish and/or hack, and do anything with with total disregard for their targeted market. It boggles the mind really, any other industry that treated their customers in such a manner would fail in record time, but man we have a nice huge group of retards in the MMO scene that just love to bend over and hand them money.

I remember in XI there were players that would actually go buy gil from the RMT, then pay that very same gil back to them for drops. Like one step away from just sending the RMT a Christmas card with 200 bucks in it.
Re-freaking-tarded, that's all you can call a group that essentially pays someone to play a game for them.

You don't have time to play??? Guess what genius? There's like 1000 other current games available that DO fit in your time constraints. Do you also buy shoes 8 sizes too big and pay someone to wear them for you? Cuz it's the same thing!

There's really no excuse for paying RL money for a fake sword, at the end of the day, the whole server knows you didn't get it from playing, and are laughing at the fact you aren't playing the game, you're just standing there screaming "lookatmybest@#%^ingshineyinthewholegameiswearmypenisisnt4incheslong".
Congrats on perpetuating the RMT problem and wearing an obvious "I'm an idiot" sign for everyone.

Edited, Apr 9th 2011 5:21pm by Restyoneck
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#15 Apr 09 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Care to elaborate? I respond to your general statement with one of my own: Hopefully RMT will be crowding/monopolizing all of your prefered camps and content for the rest of your MMO gaming life...


Because gaming a luxury for me, and for them it's something that's probably keeping them from starving. I grew up on the bottom rungs of society in post communist Romania. If selling virtual goods existed in the early 90's and I had a computer, I probably would have been doing it.


I can also put down a game if I feel that RMT is hurting my gaming experience. But in reality, RMT is such a non issue for well designed MMOs, that nobody gives a sh*t. RMT is only a hot issue with the FFXI and FFXIV crowd because the economic model that SE put in blows for both games. Spoilers: RMT is not what ruined the economy in FFXI.

Good job on the directed personal attack though, douche.

Might I suggest in the future you give a little more thought to how you word things.
Wolfums wrote:
I will never feel bad for people who had "their gaming experience ruined" by gold farmers.

Was a kind of a ****head thing to say without explaining what you meant behind it.
#16 Apr 09 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
for them it's something that's probably keeping them from starving.


Have you been paying attention? o_O
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#17 Apr 10 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
Wolfums wrote:
I can also put down a game if I feel that RMT is hurting my gaming experience. But in reality, RMT is such a non issue for well designed MMOs, that nobody gives a sh*t. RMT is only a hot issue with the FFXI and FFXIV crowd because the economic model that SE put in blows for both games. Spoilers: RMT is not what ruined the economy in FFXI.

Good job on the directed personal attack though, douche.


You didn't put down this game, you put down all of us who play this game and find RMT an annoyance.

As to well designed MMOs...
WoW had a ton when I played as did EVE and PotBS and WAR (though they got killed off quickly)
Those are all well designed but only one of those was well moderated. That IMO is what matters most, not how the game is designed.
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#18 Apr 10 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Default
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Square destroyed RMT in FFXI, most sites don't even sell gil anymore they bashed them so hard. Then again they also changed the game so much Gil has very little importance now so thats another reason I guess.

I still think the companies themselves should sell the gil, I can see no real reason not to. Gil/Gold buying will always happen cause players with less time/resources want to stay inline with everyone else. If they companies themselves don't sell it then the other companies will so not like them not doing it stops it happening.

Think about it, what are the reasons people hate RMT? For me I hate that they steal accounts/property to sell the gil and I hate that RMT operate ingame annoying others/monopolising NMs etc. If the games companies themselves sold the gil they would not have to farm it interfering with other gamers or steal/hack accounts cause they can press a button on their PC servers and simply create the gil out of nowhere.
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#19 Apr 10 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
I still think the companies themselves should sell the gil, I can see no real reason not to.


Because, if you can buy currency, then there's no reason to farm for it, or craft for it, or quest for it, or offer services for it. Selling currency greatly devalues it: the price to buy is always lower than the amount of effort required to make it.

There are many other problems with it, too, such as the fact that selling currency embraces the act itself - why buy from X company when the RMT undercut the company's price by 50% (as we know they would). Take WoW, on Cenarian Circle server about one month ago, for example: I was getting tons of RMT shouts advertising 1000 gold for $1.86. Now, if WoW were selling its own currency, they would be competing directly with RMT for their own product. If 1000 legitimate gold cost $5.00, guess what? The company would almost never sell anything - if buying gold is fine, if we're allowed to inject thousands and thousands of pieces of currency into the economy whenever we have some spare change, why not shop around, truly?

Additionally (and this expands the first point), placing a monetary value on currency instantly creates a finite value that should not be there. If I can make 50k gil in an hour of levequests, but SE sells 500k for $10 (currency is always sold for ridiculously low amounts, as any RMT shouts should show you), I basically earn the real-life monetary equivalent of $1 an hour. This means 1) that my times feels like it has been a waste, and 2) that any random guy with one dollar can do better than I can do in an hour of actual effort.

In short, a company selling game currency is terrible for many reasons: it completely devalues all in-game economic activities - farming, crafting, gathering, etc. - it creates a situation wherein RMT compete directly with the game company for the same product, it devalues personal effort, and it allows people who don't even play a game to buy advancement in it.

edit: oh, it also crazily inflates the in-game economy by, as you say, "press[ing] a button...and simply creat[ing] the gil out of nowhere."

Edited, Apr 10th 2011 12:18pm by KaneKitty
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#20LillithaFenimore, Posted: Apr 10 2011 at 11:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The gil buying and selling really doesn't bother me at all. I look at it as more of a challenge added to my gaming...can it be annoying in some cases? Yeah, but over all, it's not going to cause me to quit a game or be mad at a game, now botting and hacking, that ****** me off. But if there is a legit RMT, and we are both camping the same monster...so game on O.O
#21 Apr 10 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Default
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Because, if you can buy currency, then there's no reason to farm for it, or craft for it, or quest for it, or offer services for it. Selling currency greatly devalues it: the price to buy is always lower than the amount of effort required to make it.


Not everyone is willing or able to spend money on ingame currency, those that will can goto the gil selling sites and do, it's pretty widespread. There is quite a big market for it and it happens widley no matter how much the game companies and players try to stop it. It already happens anyway.

I understand how people being able to buy gil devalues the effort normal players put in but since it happens anyway and the alternative to the companies selling it is to have RMT farmers all over the servers and hacking/selling of accounts I would rather the lesser of 2 evils.

The best situation is of course for it not to exist at all but this will never happen when there is demand.
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#22 Apr 10 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
LillithaFenimore wrote:
The gil buying and selling really doesn't bother me at all. I look at it as more of a challenge added to my gaming...can it be annoying in some cases? Yeah, but over all, it's not going to cause me to quit a game or be mad at a game, now botting and hacking, that ****** me off. But if there is a legit RMT, and we are both camping the same monster...so game on O.O


IF and MAJOR IF the RMT were camping things legit it wouldn't be a problem, but most of the time in XI any way they'd bot/hack NMs and then sell the item, when items became non-tradable they would still take the NM and then sell a slot into the party for the drop or throw the item away. That's what always happens, it's an escalation. It might start off fairly "legit" but it will always escalate to the easiest money for the least ammount of time as ANY buisiness will do.
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#23 Apr 10 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
LillithaFenimore wrote:
The gil buying and selling really doesn't bother me at all. I look at it as more of a challenge added to my gaming...can it be annoying in some cases? Yeah, but over all, it's not going to cause me to quit a game or be mad at a game, now botting and hacking, that ****** me off. But if there is a legit RMT, and we are both camping the same monster...so game on O.O


IF and MAJOR IF the RMT were camping things legit it wouldn't be a problem, but most of the time in XI any way they'd bot/hack NMs and then sell the item, when items became non-tradable they would still take the NM and then sell a slot into the party for the drop or throw the item away. That's what always happens, it's an escalation. It might start off fairly "legit" but it will always escalate to the easiest money for the least ammount of time as ANY buisiness will do.


Yeah, it is unfortunate that it gets down to that. However, I look at nm hunting as something extra to do... Like a bragging right sort of deal (no I am not trivialising hunting for those o you who are hard core into it for drops or bragging rights). To me, it is something fun to do, is it a necessity? No. Will it block me from playing the main content? No. So, when it comes down to it, I just move on to something else in game.
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#24 Apr 10 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
I understand how people being able to buy gil devalues the effort normal players put in but since it happens anyway and the alternative to the companies selling it is to have RMT farmers all over the servers and hacking/selling of accounts I would rather the lesser of 2 evils.


How does a game company selling currency remove RMT? The way it is now, RMT are able to sell thousands of gold (WoW) or hundreds of thousands of gil (FFXIV) for just a couple dollars. The only way the respective companies could compete would be to sell two-thousand gold / a million gil for about 50 cents! I think you know as well as I do what that would do to the economy...

You say how popular it is to buy currency now, but how popular do you think it'll become once companies and RMT are in an undercutting war for our business? We all know how good RMT are at undercutting. And if you say that the companies can ultimately win by virtue of the fact that they can continually generate currency - thereby devaluing their own currency to the point of it being not worth even the RMT's time - well, I think that just broke the game right there. XD
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
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