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If FFXIV had been a true sequel to 11?Follow

#1 Apr 20 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe this has been said many times before but I cant help myself. Anyone else think that if FFXIV had been a sequel to XI with even greater content, tweaks to FFXI's UI, job balances, more jobs, voice cutscenes, prettier graphics, better character customization, larger environments but also complexity and history to each environment that FFXIV would have been the next big MMO that die-hards crave for? It could have been so big.. but Tanaka ruined it all for us!
#2 Apr 20 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Imaboomer wrote:
Maybe this has been said many times before but I cant help myself. Anyone else think that if FFXIV had been a sequel to XI with even greater content, tweaks to FFXI's UI, job balances, more jobs, voice cutscenes, prettier graphics, better character customization, larger environments but also complexity and history to each environment that FFXIV would have been the next big MMO that die-hards crave for? It could have been so big.. but Tanaka ruined it all for us!


One things almost certain a true sequel to FFXI would have more than 20-30k subscribers 7 months in. As far as this FFXI sequel being the next big MMO I would say I doubt it. The next truely big MMO will be from a western company. Most likely Blizzard.
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#3 Apr 20 2011 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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i could b completely wrong, but from what i understood they didnt have all their best of the best people working on 14, mixed with 14 coming out a year or two, too early.

what they should have done is take the entire 11 development team and put them on this game instead. 11 is in its small patches stage, there isnt going to be any more expansion packs so keeping there best devs for that wasnt the best idea.

either way all of that is in the past so all we can do is go forward from here. could this have been a ff11 sequal? possibly. but it doesnt really matter now.
#4 Apr 20 2011 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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Technically, no FF title has ever had a sequel. FF XII Does not count. 12-2 wasn't a sequel, but a continuation of 12. With that being said, they kind of messed up by making some things to much like XI. XIV needs to be it's own unique FF universe imo.
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#6Teneleven, Posted: Apr 20 2011 at 9:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not really, but kind of? FF XII and FF XII-2 are the same game to me. Like they ran out of room on the CD's, so they had to do it. Saying FF XII-2 is a sequel, is like saying the second Lord of The Rings is a sequel.
#7 Apr 20 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Technically, no FF title has ever had a sequel. FF XII Does not count. 12-2 wasn't a sequel, but a continuation of 12. With that being said, they kind of messed up by making some things to much like XI. XIV needs to be it's own unique FF universe imo.


You could try to be more wrong, but you would not be successful. First, there is no 12-2. There is Revenant Wings for the DS. There was X-2 which is most definitely a sequel. And how about FFIV: The after years and Interlude? Not to mention XIII is getting another entry entitled FFXIII-2.
#8 Apr 20 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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First off I'd say that FFX-2 might not be considered a true sequel because so many systems changed. It was same world, same characters, but the fundamentals were off, it really wasn't a pure continuation of the same FFX experience. Its all semantics though, I'd call it a sequel.

More on topic, I don't think a FFXI-2 would have been all that great. If you don't change enough, people go back to what they know. They would have had to make the new experience better than the cost of starting over. Didn't go well for EQ2, and it didn't do well for "wow clones" (I know not really sequels, but its somewhat similar concept).

However yes, I do agree that FFXI-2 would have done much better than what we have now, but I don't really blame them for trying to do something new, (I do blame them for being so bad at it though).
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#9 Apr 20 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Aizm wrote:
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Technically, no FF title has ever had a sequel. FF XII Does not count. 12-2 wasn't a sequel, but a continuation of 12. With that being said, they kind of messed up by making some things to much like XI. XIV needs to be it's own unique FF universe imo.


You could try to be more wrong, but you would not be successful. First, there is no 12-2. There is Revenant Wings for the DS. There was X-2 which is most definitely a sequel. And how about FFIV: The after years and Interlude? Not to mention XIII is getting another entry entitled FFXIII-2.


Yeah, i was thinking FF X ... and FF X-2 ..and came up with FF XII for some reason. Probably because i was drinking. Stupid Hockey playoffs.

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#10 Apr 20 2011 at 9:50 PM Rating: Default
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FFXI was going to have more expansions but it was cut short and the story of FFXI was epic and all the imaginations of the dev team could move the story along further. It wouldn't at all feel like FFXI again, it just has the backbone of FFXI to build from. An existing story, characters, etc, but everything else is evolved to be perfected.
#11 Apr 20 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
First off I'd say that FFX-2 might not be considered a true sequel because so many systems changed. It was same world, same characters, but the fundamentals were off, it really wasn't a pure continuation of the same FFX experience. Its all semantics though, I'd call it a sequel.


If the two narratives are complete in themselves, but one can be seen as the continuation of the other, then that one is a sequel. Only if the first narrative can be said to be incomplete can the work that comes after be called another part. In the Harry Potter series, for example, books II-VII can be rightfully called sequels.

"Sequel" simply means "what follows;" it is used in such words as "sequence" and "sequential" as well, in much the same way.
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#12 Apr 20 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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If FFXIV were a sequel, we'd have an /assist command.
#13 Apr 21 2011 at 2:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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One can only dream. What would Windy look like after 100 years of Taru awesomeness? If the zones just blended together seamlessly without load times. Imagine what it would be like to travel from future Valkrum to re-habitated Meripataud Mountains *sigh*

Imagine the beauty of Jeuno in the future with more bridges to let people run around while they use their evolved handy AH and rent chocobos to run through the Batalia fields that's no longer dead and dry...

Back to XIV where you can... well do a leve and that's about it. **** dreaming is depressing.
#14 Apr 21 2011 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I'd like to hear how you guys would plan to make a sequel out of a game that has been frequently updated for 8 years plus the initial development.

Unless you want XI where you can only go to the surrounding areas of the 4 original cities + icelands. Well, at least it would be in HD.

Not to mention the game would have still been rushed out of the door. The only difference would have been whether it fails while being like XI or while being a game of it's own.
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#15 Apr 21 2011 at 4:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I always liked the idea that Eorzea could have actually been Vana'diel, but 1000's of years into the future. Unfortunately they were so worried people thought it would turn out like FFXI, they seemed to shoot this idea down.

Although I hope now that we all know for sure its not FFXI-2, they'll reconsider subtle tie-ins between the two games.
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#16 Apr 21 2011 at 5:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Saying FF XII-2 is a sequel, is like saying the second Lord of The Rings is a sequel.
I really hate to be the one to break it to you but... it IS!

Personally, I would have loved FF14 to be a massive graphical revamping of FFXI with a similar combat system and design. There's an old phrase that fits which goes 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it'. That being said, one of the best things about Final Fantasy is how it has evolved over time. The awe-inspiring summons from FF7 onwards (later dumbed down to sheer pointlessness in FF12), the spells,the chocobos, the moogles, the airships, the crystals. They've become iconic with the series, and I can scarcely imagine a Final Fantasy game without them. Even FF13 (with its dumbed down corridor gaming style that grates on you after 2 hours) had all of those! Although, granted the chocobos were not ridden.

I imagine one of the trickiest parts of developing an MMO like Final Fantasy is living up to the name. There is a massive roster of games, including some of my all-time favourite games EVER, and you have to balance the godlike power of those gaming avatars with an online environment. For me, FFXI found that balance eventually. Sure some jobs were undoubtedly more powerful than others, but even the meekest class could find a way to perform great deeds above and beyond expectations. And yet, even with all this, there were still great challenges to be had and tougher fights which still relied on cooperation and teamwork.

If they can even bring a hint of this into Final Fantasy 14, this game will be the success they're seeking.
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#17 Apr 21 2011 at 5:31 AM Rating: Good
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Imaboomer wrote:
Maybe this has been said many times before but I cant help myself. Anyone else think that if FFXIV had been a sequel to XI with even greater content, tweaks to FFXI's UI, job balances, more jobs, voice cutscenes, prettier graphics, better character customization, larger environments but also complexity and history to each environment that FFXIV would have been the next big MMO that die-hards crave for? It could have been so big.. but Tanaka ruined it all for us!
Still wouldn't have played it. Outside maybe a more intuitive UI, everything else in that list isn't that important to me. So at that point, the question would have been if I wanted to start all over instead of just continuing where I was in the other game. On the other side of that argument is that if I could transfer my character from XI to XIV, it'd make for a somewhat boring experience considering the kind of work I did put in XI.

Overall, XIV needed to be a new game and experience.
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#18 Apr 21 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Imaboomer wrote:
Maybe this has been said many times before but I cant help myself. Anyone else think that if FFXIV had been a sequel to XI with even greater content, tweaks to FFXI's UI, job balances, more jobs, voice cutscenes, prettier graphics, better character customization, larger environments but also complexity and history to each environment that FFXIV would have been the next big MMO that die-hards crave for? It could have been so big.. but Tanaka ruined it all for us!



That's what I was hoping for...kinda.

I wanted the bones to remain pretty much the same but just with an updated shell. I thought that there would have been some more casual elements borrowed from other games to put FFXIV in competition. Things like public quests (easier grouping), and just more of everything; more gear to obtain, more quests (that gave XP or not) and stuff to do.

I expected however FFXI to be the obvious and primary basis for FFXIV. And in some ways it was but in other glaring ways, IDK WTF they were doing. FFXIV should have been an extension and improvement over the faults of FFXI but it was more like a gross appendage.



#19 Apr 21 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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#20 Apr 21 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't have played it. If I wanted more of Vana'diel, I'd be playing XI where they're still adding new lore and zones to that world's atmosphere.

If I'm playing Final Fantasy IV, I'm not expecting Cecil and Baron Castle and Zeromus in Final Fantasy VII. Likewise, I don't want to see any of Vana'diel or Vana'diel's characters in Final Fantasy XIV. I like subtle similarities and obscure references to past games, but I don't want them to go out and say this is so-and-so from 1000 years ago or anything like that. That's just un-original.

I do wish FFXIV had more of a deep story at its launch though, don't get me wrong. But original lore to Eorzea, not recycled stuff from Vana'diel.
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#21 Apr 21 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't care if it's a sequel in terms of story -- a story will be good or bad because of how well it's written, not whether it follows a previous story.

I DO, very much, care that it's not a sequel in terms of gameplay. SE spent years developing and refining a gameplay system that was starting to work really well, and they intentionally jettisoned everything they could in an attempt to be original. FFXIV launched without a way to organize inventory. A year after the beta started, there still isn't a good way to target enemies. I will never understand what they were thinking -- the disconnect between common sense and what we have now suggests that they were intentionally ignoring anything that worked in FFXI. Clearly, this was not a good idea.

FFXIV isn't even not a sequel -- it's an anti-sequel. Everything (except the character races, rather bizarrely) from the previous game was intentionally omitted, even when it worked and was a common and necessary convention of every MMO.

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 4:32pm by Caesura
#22 Apr 21 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Even FF13 (with its dumbed down corridor gaming style that grates on you after 2 hours) had all of those! Although, granted the chocobos were not ridden.


Not only could you ride chocobos in FFXIII, there were also a couple side-quests involving them, and a basic chocobo-digging feature. Chocobos were used more in FFXIII, in fact, than in VI, VIII! :O
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#23 Apr 21 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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You said you dont want a sequel to the gameplay (meaning, the same battle system), yet you contradict urself saying they spent years making a good battle system and then changing everything to be original which would mean it is not a sequel and therefore u should like the new system. I dont follow?

But you know, using the same battle system mechanics doesnt mean its a replica of FFXI. It could have been expanded upon to allow for more team strategy play involvement aside from skillchains and magicbursts.
#24 Apr 21 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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You said you dont want a sequel to the gameplay (meaning, the same battle system), yet you contradict urself saying they spent years making a good battle system and then changing everything to be original which would mean it is not a sequel and therefore u should like the new system. I dont follow?

Was this a reply to me? You really need to quote so people know who you're talking to.

If you mean me, you're misinterpreting me. When I say I care that it's not a sequel in terms of gameplay, I mean that I'm unhappy about it. I would think that the rest of the paragraph detailing what I'm unhappy about would have made that clear, but apologies if not. Or if you were responding to someone else entirely.
#25 Apr 21 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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I see opportunity for XIV's story to get much better and lead to quality content once they delve further into it. Even that has some parallels to XI though. Same races for the most part, 3 starting cities eventually leading to Ishgard(Jeuno), and stuff they may do with the empire could be like ToAU. The 'echo' we use to visit past events reminds me of WotG and that could be taken further. I would've preferred less borrowing from XI in that area.

The main focus of the game, leves & behest, are kind of a condensed version of campaign, FoV pages, & assault. I sometimes like the casual, laid back feeling of it all. It's convenient, but it also feels fake & uninteresting. Instead of being set loose into a vast world full of life to figure things out, all this stuff is neatly set up for us in leveled tiers of camps. That's boring. They went way too far with the convenient, easy-mode there and lost a lot of the rpg feel. It's just a series of repetitive tasks. And yea, that sums up a lot of games, but usually they kinda try to somewhat disguise it better so the players stay interested.

Where they could've borrowed more from XI is a lot of the gameplay basics. It doesn't have to be exactly the same. I'm all for new ideas IF they're better than the previous one. What's really annoying is that XIV is worse in key areas. They had good stuff to build from with XI and ignored a lot of it.

I do like crafting & gathering way more than I ever did in XI. And sometimes I dig the laid back easy-mode, I think it should've been done in a more interesting way that doesn't feel so fake & empty. Too watered down in the substance area.

tldr
I think they could've copied from XI a lot more in some areas and a lot less in others. A new world(and races) & story with some XI feel to it, but a huge step forward from XI also. Instead it's kinda caught in-between what I was expecting and came up very short in many areas.

Edited, Apr 21st 2011 8:04pm by TwistedOwl
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#26 Apr 21 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
It's convenient, but it also feels fake & uninteresting. Instead of being set loose into a vast world full of life to figure things out, all this stuff is neatly set up for us in leveled tiers of camps. That's boring. They went way too far with the convenient, easy-mode there and lost a lot of the rpg feel.


This is very well said and really summarizes the problems I have with many games. A good game, like a good book, film, or play, is something that you should become lost in, something that is interestingly assembled enough for the player/reader/viewer to forget that they are experiencing a particular medium. The tiers of monsters, camps, gathering nodes, &c., like in most every other MMO I've ever seen, hurts immersion the most, I think.

We shouldn't be able to see the scaffolding, it should be there beneath the surface, behind the scenes, guiding a vibrant and even sometimes unpredictable world.


Edited, Apr 21st 2011 9:29pm by KaneKitty
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#27 Apr 21 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Call me old school but I enjoyed the old school fantasy hack and slash feel of ffxi. A random group of adventurers could just venture out in to the world and gain power and items. I don't really like doiing leves over and over again but that's what I do because you gain sp more easily. I loved exploring the world in ffxi where every mob and item had a purpose. In xiv I end up vendoring half my items because I don't have time to attempt to sell them. I have more money than I can spend anyway. I have faith that xiv will get better though. Even in its current state, I do have a lot of fun when I have time to play. I am glad the dev team is encouraging player feedback and interacting with the players, I think that will be key to making a great game.
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#28 Apr 21 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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If FFXIV had been a true sequel to 11?


i would play it and pay a monthly subscription for it.
#29 Apr 22 2011 at 2:48 AM Rating: Good
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Ba1dw1n wrote:
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If FFXIV had been a true sequel to 11?


i would play it and pay a monthly subscription for it.

Oh, by Altana! Definately. I'd even do so for the original controlls and game interface.
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#30 Apr 22 2011 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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tpgsoldier wrote:
Imaboomer wrote:
Maybe this has been said many times before but I cant help myself. Anyone else think that if FFXIV had been a sequel to XI with even greater content, tweaks to FFXI's UI, job balances, more jobs, voice cutscenes, prettier graphics, better character customization, larger environments but also complexity and history to each environment that FFXIV would have been the next big MMO that die-hards crave for? It could have been so big.. but Tanaka ruined it all for us!


One things almost certain a true sequel to FFXI would have more than 20-30k subscribers 7 months in.


Actually, what's for certain is that it would do even worse. At the moment, at least, there's hope this could be a better game.

But if it were a faithful clone of a nine year old MMO which can hardly retain the subscribers it has left? They'd have closed FFXIV by now as a dismal failure.

I don't understand why there's so much concern for giving FFXI players something to do. There are far, far more Final Fantasy fans than there are FFXI fans. They need to make a game that appeals to the masses, not the elite few who want to bore the rest of us to death with the same old tired game yet again.
#31 Apr 22 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
i could b completely wrong, but from what i understood they didnt have all their best of the best people working on 14, mixed with 14 coming out a year or two, too early.

what they should have done is take the entire 11 development team and put them on this game instead. 11 is in its small patches stage, there isnt going to be any more expansion packs so keeping there best devs for that wasnt the best idea.

either way all of that is in the past so all we can do is go forward from here. could this have been a ff11 sequal? possibly. but it doesnt really matter now.


XI and XIV were the same dev team, WoTG taking 3 years to finish was proof of that. This is why people were dumbfounded by the fact XIV ended up as it did by wanting to NOT make it like XI, not even the basic systems..like

Linkshell system - Text commands, LSmessage, can break shells/remove people etc.

All they had to do was take that, then add in what they did with XIV and bam, evolved Linkshell system.

LFG/Party system - what was wrong with /sea? Party flag? Search comments? They could have easily taken this system and evolved it.

Classes - MixMatch is cool and all but it lead to zero unique flavor or defined role, because for example anyone can tank and anyone can heal.

So if it had been a true sequel it likely would have done 100x better at not just release but where we stand now since all they had to do was take what worked in XI and evolve from it rather than ignore its existence.
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#32 Apr 22 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
i could b completely wrong, but from what i understood they didnt have all their best of the best people working on 14, mixed with 14 coming out a year or two, too early.

what they should have done is take the entire 11 development team and put them on this game instead. 11 is in its small patches stage, there isnt going to be any more expansion packs so keeping there best devs for that wasnt the best idea.

either way all of that is in the past so all we can do is go forward from here. could this have been a ff11 sequal? possibly. but it doesnt really matter now.


XI and XIV were the same dev team, WoTG taking 3 years to finish was proof of that. This is why people were dumbfounded by the fact XIV ended up as it did by wanting to NOT make it like XI, not even the basic systems..like

Linkshell system - Text commands, LSmessage, can break shells/remove people etc.

All they had to do was take that, then add in what they did with XIV and bam, evolved Linkshell system.

LFG/Party system - what was wrong with /sea? Party flag? Search comments? They could have easily taken this system and evolved it.

Classes - MixMatch is cool and all but it lead to zero unique flavor or defined role, because for example anyone can tank and anyone can heal.

So if it had been a true sequel it likely would have done 100x better at not just release but where we stand now since all they had to do was take what worked in XI and evolve from it rather than ignore its existence.


The problems with linkshells are due to too many problems and not enough time to fix them.

The party search system wasn't a bad idea on paper. I'd much rather look for parties who actively want someone of my class to join them than throw a flag up and hope someone in the world will eventually contact me. The problem was it just never got explained very well and with the other limitations with party invitations (like being in the same area to even get invited), it just didn't take off. But, ultimately, I think it's a superior system once the kinks get worked out.

And the armory system is one of the few things that critics praised about FFXIV. The build-your-own-class system is unique to 14, and it would be a shame to see that innovation go away.

In any event, there are millions of Final Fantasy players (I believe FF13 had north of 6 million in sales). These are the players FF14 should cater to. Not the 250k FFXI players (and falling) that can still enjoy the original FFXI if they really, really want to.
#33 Apr 22 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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And the armory system is one of the few things that critics praised about FFXIV. The build-your-own-class system is unique to 14, and it would be a shame to see that innovation go away.


In theory, yes, it's a great idea. Be aware, however, that the critics who praised it initially could hardly see its long-term implications. In practice, it's more what Theonehio says:

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MixMatch is cool and all but it lead to zero unique flavor or defined role


By providing the player with a maximum of freedom, they eliminated the role-playing element from the game. I want to be unique and essential in my party. Not just the same easy-to-throw-away-and-replace wooden box in another, slightly differently colored wrapping.
#34 Apr 22 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Default
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Maybe they didn't wanna make FFXIV a sequel cuz, well, maybe they're creative people who like doing new things?

You don't see great directors making sequels. While occasionally (with emphasis on occasionally) a planned trilogy works out, sequels are by and large bad. They're very limiting from a creative standpoint--you don't get to make a new world, you're stuck with established lore, there's little mystery in a world that audiences have already seen. The one thing that has always been true about FF games is their commitment to creativity, and I don't think sequels fit their MO.

Plus, no one is gonna play FFXI-2 if they didn't play FFXI, so you've capped your playerbase pre-release. There was absolutely no conceivable way a good FF game producer was gonna go with FFXI-2, from a creative standpoint or a financial standpoint. If they just wanted to milk the FFXI playerbase more, that's easy--it's called EXPANSION PACKS.
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#35 Apr 22 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:

....

Plus, no one is gonna play FFXI-2 if they didn't play FFXI, so you've capped your playerbase pre-release. There was absolutely no conceivable way a good FF game producer was gonna go with FFXI-2, from a creative standpoint or a financial standpoint. If they just wanted to milk the FFXI playerbase more, that's easy--it's called EXPANSION PACKS.


You don't think that maybe there are people who missed the original release and just don't want to start fresh in a game that's been out for eight years and currently end-game heavy? I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have enjoyed FFXI-2 more than the watered down garbage that FFXIV currently is now, myself included. FFXI was great, but I want fresh servers and the ability to level up with the community again, new graphics, revised game play, not something that threw out all the past innovation simply for the sake of being different or 'creative'. Everquest was a great game in its day also and it's still available, but it's not the same game anymore and neither is FFXI.
#36 Apr 22 2011 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Plus, no one is gonna play FFXI-2 if they didn't play FFXI, so you've capped your playerbase pre-release.

That doesn't make any sense. Plenty of sequels sell better than the original. The sales of a sequel are not magically capped by the number of people who bought the original.

Is anyone familiar with the biblical analysis of the "fortunate fall"? The idea is that the fall of Adam and Eve actually HELPED mankind, because although they fell, mankind eventually rose to greater heights than we would have without the original sin. People throw the theory around (among other reasons) as a way of arguing that Adam and Eve didn't really do anything wrong, and it was all part of God's plan.

That really seems like what some people are arguing in terms of the "it's good that it's original but sucks because in the long run it will be better" analysis.

I... don't buy it. A game can be good from the start and still get better over time, and a good game that improves is going to end up better than a terrible game that improves.
#37 Apr 22 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
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Plus, no one is gonna play FFXI-2 if they didn't play FFXI, so you've capped your playerbase pre-release.

That doesn't make any sense. Plenty of sequels sell better than the original. The sales of a sequel are not magically capped by the number of people who bought the original.


When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.
#38 Apr 22 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Caesura wrote:
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Plus, no one is gonna play FFXI-2 if they didn't play FFXI, so you've capped your playerbase pre-release.

That doesn't make any sense. Plenty of sequels sell better than the original. The sales of a sequel are not magically capped by the number of people who bought the original.


When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.


That's true, but at least in my experience it's because they deviated too much from what people enjoyed in the original. FFXIV is to FFXI like what many other MMO sequels have been to their originals. If they hadn't tried so hard to be different from what worked, whether you call it FFXI-2 or FFXIV, it would have been much more successful.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 2:16pm by Calispel
#39 Apr 22 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.

How many MMO sequels have there been? Everquest II had the misfortune of releasing at the same time as WoW, and even then it made money and is still going today. What other major-release MMO sequels are out there?

FFXIV has a player base of 5% of the people who paid for it, and the other 95% could be playing for free if they wanted, and they still choose not to. That is the bottom of the barrel -- it does not get meaningfully worse than 95% of people who have already paid for your MMO choosing not to play it for free. [30k regular players, out of 600k sales worldwide]

There is no way that FFXIV being a more "direct" sequel could have hurt the game more than it is hurting now.
#40 Apr 22 2011 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caesura wrote:
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When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.

How many MMO sequels have there been? Everquest II had the misfortune of releasing at the same time as WoW, and even then it made money and is still going today. What other major-release MMO sequels are out there?

FFXIV has a player base of 5% of the people who paid for it, and the other 95% could be playing for free if they wanted, and they still choose not to. That is the bottom of the barrel -- it does not get meaningfully worse than 95% of people who have already paid for your MMO choosing not to play it for free. [30k regular players, out of 600k sales worldwide]

There is no way that FFXIV being a more "direct" sequel could have hurt the game more than it is hurting now.


There was Lineage II which, I think, ended up doing well. So, yeah, probably not enough cases to mount a convincing argument about MMO sequels. XD
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#41 Apr 22 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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When people think of Lineage they generally think of Lineage II, so yeah.
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#42 Apr 22 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.


Err.... World of Warcraft doesn't count...?

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 4:31pm by KodoReturns
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#43 Apr 22 2011 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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KodoReturns wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.


Err.... World of Warcraft doesn't count...?


I think he meant sequels to MMOs, as in Everquest II to Everquest or Lineage II to Lineage; WoW is an MMORPG version of an RTS game, so I don't think it counts in this case.
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#44 Apr 22 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
KodoReturns wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.


Err.... World of Warcraft doesn't count...?


I think he meant sequels to MMOs, as in Everquest II to Everquest or Lineage II to Lineage; WoW is an MMORPG version of an RTS game, so I don't think it counts in this case.


Well, Blizzard would not make WoW 2 anyway. It's not a smart thing to do. Start from the ground up on a totally new franchise with new races (lolxiv) and all.
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#45 Apr 23 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.

How many MMO sequels have there been? Everquest II had the misfortune of releasing at the same time as WoW, and even then it made money and is still going today. What other major-release MMO sequels are out there?

FFXIV has a player base of 5% of the people who paid for it, and the other 95% could be playing for free if they wanted, and they still choose not to. That is the bottom of the barrel -- it does not get meaningfully worse than 95% of people who have already paid for your MMO choosing not to play it for free. [30k regular players, out of 600k sales worldwide]

There is no way that FFXIV being a more "direct" sequel could have hurt the game more than it is hurting now.


There was Lineage II which, I think, ended up doing well. So, yeah, probably not enough cases to mount a convincing argument about MMO sequels. XD


Lineage 1 did far better than Lineage 2. In the five years since Lineage 2 launched, it virtually maintained fewer subs than its predecessor the whole time, and Lineage 2 never achieved even close to the same popularity. That's the point I'm making: MMO sequels always do worse. There hasn't been an exception yet.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html
#46 Apr 23 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
When it comes to MMOs, a sequel that sells better than the original would be a first. Historically, MMO sequels have all done poorly whenever it was tried.

How many MMO sequels have there been? Everquest II had the misfortune of releasing at the same time as WoW, and even then it made money and is still going today. What other major-release MMO sequels are out there?

FFXIV has a player base of 5% of the people who paid for it, and the other 95% could be playing for free if they wanted, and they still choose not to. That is the bottom of the barrel -- it does not get meaningfully worse than 95% of people who have already paid for your MMO choosing not to play it for free. [30k regular players, out of 600k sales worldwide]

There is no way that FFXIV being a more "direct" sequel could have hurt the game more than it is hurting now.


There was Lineage II which, I think, ended up doing well. So, yeah, probably not enough cases to mount a convincing argument about MMO sequels. XD


Lineage 1 did far better than Lineage 2. In the five years since Lineage 2 launched, it virtually maintained fewer subs than its predecessor the whole time, and Lineage 2 never achieved even close to the same popularity. That's the point I'm making: MMO sequels always do worse. There hasn't been an exception yet.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html


That chart is, however, three years old; I wonder how the two games compare now, or last year, even...
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#47 Apr 23 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's the point I'm making: MMO sequels always do worse. There hasn't been an exception yet.

I'm not sure that's a generalization you can meaningfully make from only two previous examples, especially when both were apparently financially successful.

It's worth noting that Rift is widely considered a WoW clone, and yet is the most successful MMO launch... since WoW, I think? Whether something is literally a sequel or not, it's pretty clear that doing the same thing again can be very successful.
#48 Apr 23 2011 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
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That's the point I'm making: MMO sequels always do worse. There hasn't been an exception yet.

I'm not sure that's a generalization you can meaningfully make from only two previous examples, especially when both were apparently financially successful.

It's worth noting that Rift is widely considered a WoW clone, and yet is the most successful MMO launch... since WoW, I think? Whether something is literally a sequel or not, it's pretty clear that doing the same thing again can be very successful.


Well said - and an interesting point about surreptitious sequels, like clone-games.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#49 Apr 24 2011 at 3:15 AM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:


That chart is, however, three years old; I wonder how the two games compare now, or last year, even...


Right, because MMOs really pick up steam in their sixth year...

KaneKitty wrote:
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
That's the point I'm making: MMO sequels always do worse. There hasn't been an exception yet.

I'm not sure that's a generalization you can meaningfully make from only two previous examples, especially when both were apparently financially successful.

It's worth noting that Rift is widely considered a WoW clone, and yet is the most successful MMO launch... since WoW, I think? Whether something is literally a sequel or not, it's pretty clear that doing the same thing again can be very successful.


Well said - and an interesting point about surreptitious sequels, like clone-games.


If Rift ever exceeds WoW's 12 million subscribers, I'm buying everyone a glitter pony! You get a glitter pony. You get a glitter pony. Every. Body. Gets. A glitter pony!

I'm not saying you can't make a living off a sequel, but that they always do worse. Lineage 2 did worse than Lineage 1. EQ2 did worse EQ1. And AC2 suffered a far worse fate than AC1.

In the case of FFXI which is on the brink of oblivion subscription-wise, you really don't want to make a FFXI-2 just on the historic record alone.
#50 Apr 24 2011 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:


That chart is, however, three years old; I wonder how the two games compare now, or last year, even...


Right, because MMOs really pick up steam in their sixth year...


WOW is the exception to that rule, it has never lost steam, only increased year by year.....
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#51 Apr 24 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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In the case of FFXI which is on the brink of oblivion subscription-wise, you really don't want to make a FFXI-2 just on the historic record alone.

So, your argument is that rather than making a "sequel" to FFXI, which peaked at more than half a million regular players and still has more than a hundred thousand paying $13/month nine years later, SE was smart to do something completely different and end up with a game that has thirty thousand people playing for free six months after launch?

And, while I doubt anything this generation will ever beat WoW's 12 million, I'm not sure it's useful to say that a "sequel" pulling in more than a million subscribers very shortly after launch did worse. It's factually true, but not a meaningful comparison because Rift is still a wild, runaway success by modern standards. It's accurate that the count-on-the-fingers-of-one-hand MMO sequels have never done better than the original, but the statement "no one should make a sequel because they never do well" doesn't follow from that at all. If all game designers had gone with that logic, the folks at Trion wouldn't be dancing and singing right now, and FFXIV would still be terrible. "Be original" is clearly not a successful MMO design philosophy in the current generation of games, regardless of how three sequels in the last eight years have done.
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