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Why the use of the word lore?Follow

#1 Apr 27 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
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This has been bugging me for a while, and I almost found myself ranting in a thread about the misuse of this word.

I know it comes from World of Warcraft (after a little google, and a co-worker talking about Lore), and that many people who play Final Fantasy 14 either have played or are playing WoW, so moving terms from one game to another is common, I just don't understand this one. It's meaning has nothing to do with it's usage, and well, it just baffles me.

Quests give history, or advance the story, Missions (or now storyline quests) predominately advance the story while providing some back-story (Lore I would suppose in some abstract sense).

Anyways, maybe I am just being a grumpy old man, but, I guess I am just trying to understand what this new-fangled meaning of lore is (god it feels silly every time I say it).

And I am truly being sincere about this, as lore means mythos, and/or legend, it's use to describe story and back-story or character development whether or not something of myth or legend is referenced seems more of an inaccurate short-hand for saying story, back-story or character development.
#2 Apr 27 2011 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lore is a word, not a wow term:

-noun
the body of knowledge, especially of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject.
ex. the lore of herbs.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 6:58pm by DeadKings
#3 Apr 27 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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tl:dr Lore = Info

just a much fancier way of saying information
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#4 Apr 27 2011 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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Well, the question is how do you define knowledge?

Quote:
lore
1    /lɔr, loʊr/ Show Spelled[lawr, lohr]
–noun
1. the body of knowledge, especially of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject: the lore of herbs.
2. learning, knowledge, or erudition.
3. Archaic .
a. the process or act of teaching; instruction.
b. something that is taught; lesson.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lore


To say that the lore of Eorzea is obtained through these quests seems accurate to me. Language is a funny thing like that. To be knowledgeable about the "current" events of the land as well as it's history.

Kind of makes me wonder what it was like to live in Shakespeare's time. He made up words left and right and formed much of our modern version of English.
#5 Apr 27 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree, I allways figgured that lore meant story or background story.. anyone using lore as a synonym for content is probably someone who refers to characters as toons.
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#6 Apr 27 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
Well, the question is how do you define knowledge?

Quote:
lore
1    /lɔr, loʊr/ Show Spelled[lawr, lohr]
–noun
1. the body of knowledge, especially of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject: the lore of herbs.
2. learning, knowledge, or erudition.
3. Archaic .
a. the process or act of teaching; instruction.
b. something that is taught; lesson.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lore


To say that the lore of Eorzea is obtained through these quests seems accurate to me. Language is a funny thing like that. To be knowledgeable about the "current" events of the land as well as it's history.

Kind of makes me wonder what it was like to live in Shakespeare's time. He made up words left and right and formed much of our modern version of English.



That's the thing, I agree with you on that part, however, understanding and knowledge are two different things. And maybe it's just my approach to quests, and what I get out of them, but I don't see Final Fantasy quests/missions just about the information related to the world, I see it as the development of the characters, a dynamic of interactions, to be even cheesier the overall development of all things interconnected. Why is this person afraid of bats, or why is this guy hiding in the cellars. The reason maybe the lore, but the (inter)actions are the story and the development. I guess I am trying to say that is that my use of the word has been based on it being applied to the collection of knowledge not to an understanding or development.

Sort of the way that knowledge is dwarfed by wisdom, wisdom is dwarfed by understanding, and groking dwarfs all.

As to that, thank you, I understand the intended use, and will move on. While I may not like the use, I am not so old I can't accept calling a directory a folder:).

On a side note, more words are created in this day and age then even existed in Shakespeare's day. Between the media outlets and the internet itself, the English language is changing so rapidly most people don't even know what words to be offended by...
#7 Apr 27 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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That's why I <3 the English language and all it has to offer.
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#8 Apr 27 2011 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
And maybe it's just my approach to quests, and what I get out of them, but I don't see Final Fantasy quests/missions just about the information related to the world, I see it as the development of the characters, a dynamic of interactions, to be even cheesier the overall development of all things interconnected. Why is this person afraid of bats, or why is this guy hiding in the cellars.

Most of us who play XIV also agree that levequest flavour text is terrible, and in XI, the equivalent "training regiments" didn't even try to include any. It was a floating book, giving you daily tasks and rewarded you with money and XP. Granted, they did mention it was an initiative of the Moogles to aid adventurers -- so even that was "explained in lore". Unlike, for example, how random dungeons giving you extra money and xp once a day is simply a feature in WoW, and how you can teleport there from anywhere in the world, but only once a mystical green eye in the interface finds suitable companions.

Quests, like story missions, and some specific quests (I'm thinking "Quid Pro Quo" as an example) actually improve the lore. For example, we learn about the way the church of Ul'dah gets its money (asking for donations in a borderline extortion method, looting crash sites, etc.), we learn about the fact the Sultan is talking in private with the leader of a bunch of people from the Ironworks, who make the bolts and other engineering parts used in airships and advanced weaponry, in order to most likely mount a suitable defense against the Garlean highly-advanced mechanical units (2-legged AT ST lookalikes)

Final Fantasy XI had a lot of "slice of life" lore (The stone monuments in each zone that explained how and when the landmarks were raised, and how they fell to misuse, about trade between nations, royal sports, etc.) as well as many interesting plot twists filled with revelations (Who are the Zilarts, what happens to Immortals when they cannot hold the beast any longer, how the Shadow Lord came to be).
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#9 Apr 27 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Docent while I appreciate all that info you really should have marked that as a spoiler.
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#10 Apr 27 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're asking the wrong question. The correct question is "why do some people think that Lore is as good as a deep and enguaging storyline?" I can read a wall of text, and it just doesnt do the same thing for me that a CS with interactive elements with memorable characters and quirky SE humor does for me.
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#11 Apr 27 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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where did you get that the actual word Lore is a WoW term? lol and after you did some google research? Lore pertains to the knowledge and info of something (usually historical from what i can remember), and like many words, can change slightly depending on context. using the word Lore to describe FFXIVs ingame history is accurate and correct.
ever hear the term folklore? break the word into two and see what you get.

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 12:03am by pixelpop
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#12 Apr 28 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Default
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
You're asking the wrong question. The correct question is "why do some people think that Lore is as good as a deep and enguaging storyline?" I can read a wall of text, and it just doesnt do the same thing for me that a CS with interactive elements with memorable characters and quirky SE humor does for me.


Because it is? Storyline is a current story unfolding, lore is history and the like, it what makes the world feel and seem real, not the storyline.
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#13 Apr 28 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
I know it comes from World of Warcraft (after a little google, and a co-worker talking about Lore), and that many people who play Final Fantasy 14 either have played or are playing WoW, so moving terms from one game to another is common


Well we all lived through the first Dark Age, the Dark Age of Magic the Gathering. Now we're living through the second Dark Age, that called the Dark Age of WoW. I was curious so I went to Google and searched for mmorpg and lore. The first results shows;

"Lore is arguably the most overlooked aspect of a MMORPG. Known as the 'backstory ' of a game, lore can help add a sense of immersion that helps make..."

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 6:39am by rubina
#14 Apr 28 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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rubina wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
I know it comes from World of Warcraft (after a little google, and a co-worker talking about Lore), and that many people who play Final Fantasy 14 either have played or are playing WoW, so moving terms from one game to another is common


Well we all lived through the first Dark Age, the Dark Age of Magic the Gathering. Now we're living through the second Dark Age, that called the Dark Age of WoW. I was curious so I went to Google and searched for mmorpg and lore. The first results shows;

"Lore is arguably the most overlooked aspect of a MMORPG. Known as the 'backstory ' of a game, lore can help add a sense of immersion that helps make..."

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 6:39am by rubina


Previously I was going to point out the fact that the use of the term outside of WoW (from a little bit more then a little google search) doesn't exist before 2010.
The site you mentioned has the following bit:
Quote:
Copyright © MMOHut 2010


If you do a google search of World of Warcraft Lore the first 10 pages almost all refer to lore as quests, you do the same search with Final Fantasy, and there is no reference to this use before 2010.

I apologize if me singling out WoW has offended people, that was not the intent. It is simply an observation of usage and point of inflection. Until recently I have not heard the word used in Final Fantasy, and while I have heard of it used in LOTR recently, I have heard the word used in reference to WoW for the past 2 years. The word usage in conjunction with MMOs is fairly new (the reason for me asking the question), and it's usage did not align with my understanding of the word.
#15 Apr 28 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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I hate games without proper context or where the world is created first, then the lore is tackled to explain things as an afterthought. It really shows when companies give proper thought into the world before deciding that "hay lets create super cool awsum dynamic contentz" and not the opposite.

It really makes it hard to care about the game or my character. I am simply not interested in epic lewtz and uber bosses when they feel so separated from the world and are given no context. They just look cool and do cool moves. And if possible, are challenging to kill.

XI and XIV are the few MMO's that have managed to build an interesting setting from the ground-up. While it took some time for everything to open up in XI, it was clear that there was always a reason for everything abnormal from the beginning (crags, the spine structure in meriphataud, qufim's shape, crystallized trees in batallia that point in a certain direction, the ghosts in gusgen mines...).

While XIV has less going on as far as the abnormalities in environment are concerned, the lore is as rich as ever as we can already see from the few quests that have been revealed thus far. They are even teasing the massive patch through the lore. When in XI we found out what had happened in the past that made the world be the way it is, this time we are part of the process itself. Even if there is that dragon/airship in Mor Dhona and supposedly something major happened 1500 years ago in Thanalan that made the place a desert, the past is not in the spotlight, the present and the future is.
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#16 Apr 28 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:
rubina wrote:
rfolkker wrote:
I know it comes from World of Warcraft (after a little google, and a co-worker talking about Lore), and that many people who play Final Fantasy 14 either have played or are playing WoW, so moving terms from one game to another is common


Well we all lived through the first Dark Age, the Dark Age of Magic the Gathering. Now we're living through the second Dark Age, that called the Dark Age of WoW. I was curious so I went to Google and searched for mmorpg and lore. The first results shows;

"Lore is arguably the most overlooked aspect of a MMORPG. Known as the 'backstory ' of a game, lore can help add a sense of immersion that helps make..."

Edited, Apr 28th 2011 6:39am by rubina


Previously I was going to point out the fact that the use of the term outside of WoW (from a little bit more then a little google search) doesn't exist before 2010.
The site you mentioned has the following bit:
Quote:
Copyright © MMOHut 2010


If you do a google search of World of Warcraft Lore the first 10 pages almost all refer to lore as quests, you do the same search with Final Fantasy, and there is no reference to this use before 2010.

I apologize if me singling out WoW has offended people, that was not the intent. It is simply an observation of usage and point of inflection. Until recently I have not heard the word used in Final Fantasy, and while I have heard of it used in LOTR recently, I have heard the word used in reference to WoW for the past 2 years. The word usage in conjunction with MMOs is fairly new (the reason for me asking the question), and it's usage did not align with my understanding of the word.


The term Lore in itself is used by many developers of MMO's or RPG's in general for quite some time to be exact. I have a couple friends working in the industry who regularly use the word and have been using it for over 10 years. Yes, I agree, it is used now in a broader aspect more and more since the word is applied for almost everything that contains anything related to story, but I guess the word is just more popular these days. That's all there is to it in my opinion. I've used it rarely in my time spent in FFXI, but to me Lore stands for the world's story, the history of that world and how things came to pass and how it influences the current political/economical and cultural structure of the society in that particular world.
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#17 Apr 28 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
rubina wrote:
[quote=rfolkker]
The site you mentioned has the following bit:
[quote]Copyright © MMOHut 2010


That looks like the copyright for the site. That article was posted back in 2009, 8/24/09.

[quote]If you do a google search of World of Warcraft Lore the first 10 pages almost all refer to lore as quests, you do the same search with Final Fantasy, and there is no reference to this use before 2010.


I just gave it a whirl and the third item listed was a thread started back in 2006 called Final Fantasy Lore. I didn't use any search restraints, but you can find all sorts of interesting results by weeding out years and topics out of the search criteria. Something like

Mmorpg & lore -2011 -2010 -2009 -2008 -2007 -2006

And whatevere else you want to add or weed out. The search above is fairly broad so you'll get all sorts of stuff. You can also try specific Final Fantasy releases. The Wikipedia entry has a pretty cool timeline of their entire franchise.

I apologize for my broad statement and I hope you didn't take any offense.
#18 Apr 28 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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rfolkker wrote:
I apologize if me singling out WoW has offended people, that was not the intent. It is simply an observation of usage and point of inflection. Until recently I have not heard the word used in Final Fantasy...

Looks like someone needs to go play FFVI.
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#19 Apr 28 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I love the word lore...
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#20 Apr 28 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, the bit about how it "comes from World of Warcraft" is a bit ignorant to say at the least.

It is safe to say that you can use what I shall call the "WoW Effect" to explain it.

World of Warcraft didn't come up with lore. They just managed to make it popular enough to make it into the norm somehow, which is fine with me.

"Toonz" however, is a whole 'nother story.
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#21 Apr 28 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
You're asking the wrong question. The correct question is "why do some people think that Lore is as good as a deep and enguaging storyline?" I can read a wall of text, and it just doesnt do the same thing for me that a CS with interactive elements with memorable characters and quirky SE humor does for me.


Because it is? Storyline is a current story unfolding, lore is history and the like, it what makes the world feel and seem real, not the storyline.


You really haven't proven anything to me with that statement, nor managed to sway my opinion. What makes the world feel real is bringing the characters alive through interactive CS filled with memorable characters and such, not a book you pick up off the side of the road. A wall of text might give a sense of history, but it won't make the world feel alive and like things you do actually matter. Also, maybe I should rephrase and spell out what my intentions were so that you won't pick out only what you want too.

I never said lore wasn't important. Its every bit as important as story and setting and atmosphere. However, I just prefer my actual storyline to take place in CG sequenced storylines like in other FF titles. I don't like it when some games replace storyline with Lore. So you end up with a an opening CS, a couple walls of text from the NPCs, but the majority of the "story" comes from books and tomes etc etc. I consider it then to have not only a very weak storyline, but I feel unatached to the events and it makes me not care about whats going on. So let me rephrase:

Why do some people think that Lore is as good replacement for a deep and enguaging storyline?
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#22 Apr 30 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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It helps if you can put it into context. Think of an historical event, the battle of Hastings is a well known historical event. When you're talking about this event you can't help but talk about William, so he becomes "William of lore" because the story contains William. One could also say "Robin Hood of lore" (even though Robin Hood wasn't real, and most certainly didn't speak with an American accent), lore is history, lore is events, things that happened in the past, but not just anything, major events where most people would know or understand the lore, other wise Judge Dredd comes along and says "I am the Lore!" but don't fight it, cause "I fought the Lore and the Lore won".

Of course, it isn't restricted to past history, when you complete a major quest in an RPG (think Oblivion and shutting the gates to Oblivion) your heroic deeds get written into the lore of the land, they then build statues to you and stuff so make sure you're not wearing really bad armour else the statue will look pants. Robin Hood going to the toilet and using the last of the toilet paper though isn't lore no matter how historical the person (unless said person gets killed by an assassin who has been hiding in the toilet with a long pointy sharp stick).
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#23 May 01 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
You really haven't proven anything to me with that statement, nor managed to sway my opinion. What makes the world feel real is bringing the characters alive through interactive CS filled with memorable characters and such, not a book you pick up off the side of the road. A wall of text might give a sense of history, but it won't make the world feel alive and like things you do actually matter. Also, maybe I should rephrase and spell out what my intentions were so that you won't pick out only what you want too.


You need a better imagination then.

It's not the world's fault that you apparently need story spoon fed to you.

AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Why do some people think that Lore is as good replacement for a deep and enguaging storyline?


Considering both are telling a story, there's no difference between them. One asks people to use the muscle between their ears, and the other just shoves it all through the eyes. Interpretations are better than being forced to see something in one way only.

The better question should be "Why do you think a storyline *NEEDS* cutscenes in order to be engaging?"

Edited, May 1st 2011 3:19am by Viertel
#24 May 01 2011 at 6:24 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
I apologize if me singling out WoW has offended people, that was not the intent. It is simply an observation of usage and point of inflection. Until recently I have not heard the word used in Final Fantasy, and while I have heard of it used in LOTR recently, I have heard the word used in reference to WoW for the past 2 years. The word usage in conjunction with MMOs is fairly new (the reason for me asking the question), and it's usage did not align with my understanding of the word.


After reading the OP I clicked the reply button initially to give you a verbal beatdown for not knowing what lore meant. FFXIV really doesn't have much lore to it so I started to think I should change this post and forgive you. Then I realized that you might actually be a FFXIV player, so now I somehow feel like I should apologize to you.

Hyanmen wrote:
I hate games without proper context or where the world is created first, then the lore is tackled to explain things as an afterthought. It really shows when companies give proper thought into the world before deciding that "hay lets create super cool awsum dynamic contentz" and not the opposite.

It really makes it hard to care about the game or my character. I am simply not interested in epic lewtz and uber bosses when they feel so separated from the world and are given no context. They just look cool and do cool moves. And if possible, are challenging to kill.

XI and XIV


Until here^ I was totally with you.

FFXIV is almost completely devoid of any kind of storyline that gives players a purpose, meaning or some kind of reason to be in the world of Eorzea. The first things I question when I start playing a game are who am I and why am I here. Don't get me wrong though; sometimes it's refreshing to be thrown into the mix without a clue and slowly unravel the story, but it just isn't there for FFXIV.
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#25 May 01 2011 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
FFXIV is almost completely devoid of any kind of storyline that gives players a purpose, meaning or some kind of reason to be in the world of Eorzea.

Don't get me wrong though; sometimes it's refreshing to be thrown into the mix without a clue and slowly unravel the story, but it just isn't there for FFXIV.


At least there is a chance we'll actually figure it out later, unlike in XI. The whole story is set up in a way that we will find out about our past and purpose as the story goes on. In XI we simply popped out of somewhere and that's that.

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#26 May 01 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
Well, I do play WoW, and when I say 'Lore' I mean the backstory of the game universe. Lore is things like who are the titans, who are the old gods, where did the maelstrom come from, how did Neltharion become deathwing, etc. Quests do give that sort of history, they'll refer to events in the 'lore': in the past, etc. Of course, this backstory is always being built on too and comes up to meet the current events. Story becomes lore. The lore of the blood elves encompasses lots of things that at the time were gameplay and are now lore.
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#27 May 01 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Viertel wrote:
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
You really haven't proven anything to me with that statement, nor managed to sway my opinion. What makes the world feel real is bringing the characters alive through interactive CS filled with memorable characters and such, not a book you pick up off the side of the road. A wall of text might give a sense of history, but it won't make the world feel alive and like things you do actually matter. Also, maybe I should rephrase and spell out what my intentions were so that you won't pick out only what you want too.


You need a better imagination then.

It's not the world's fault that you apparently need story spoon fed to you.

AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Why do some people think that Lore is as good replacement for a deep and enguaging storyline?


Considering both are telling a story, there's no difference between them. One asks people to use the muscle between their ears, and the other just shoves it all through the eyes. Interpretations are better than being forced to see something in one way only.

The better question should be "Why do you think a storyline *NEEDS* cutscenes in order to be engaging?"

Edited, May 1st 2011 3:19am by Viertel


I need a better imagination? Ok first off this isnt a book (which I read quite a lot of, and manage to use my imagination while I'm at it), and this isn't Pen and Paper. I dont want it spoonfed to me, but I do prefer a very involved developer driven content. Which means I shouldn't have to imagine anything.

Why do you think a storyline *NEEDS* cutscenes in order to be engaging?

EASY!!!! Because its @#%^ing Final Fantasy you ***!!! Now if you mean other games, then while I am inclined to think its a better way to present storylines, I don't really have a bone to pick with them. Games like Oblivion can do their boring *** quests style and uninspiring lore as much as they want to, and I just won't play them.

Edited, May 1st 2011 3:24pm by AmsaimSutavarg
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#28 May 01 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
EASY!!!! Because its @#%^ing Final Fantasy you ***!!


Shame I already feel my sig area is cluttered, as this is definately sig worthy.
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#29 May 01 2011 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
It's not the world's fault that you apparently need story spoon fed to you.
Its pretty bad design if you have to get a game's story from outside of the game.
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#30 May 01 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Elder Scrolls

Quote:
boring *** quests

Quote:
uninspiring lore

Well well well, look who needs to eat ****.
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#31 May 01 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL! Hit a nerve did I??
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#32 May 01 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Default
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
LOL! Hit a nerve did I??


you might think you did, but to everyone else, it's clear that you simply said something that someone else thought was retarded. not a big deal, happens every day.

oh and osama bin laden is dead or something.
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#33 May 02 2011 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
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Listen, I cant help it that people get bent out of shape because they have horrible tastes in games. And believe me there are plenty of people that hate the Elder Scrolls series. I only know one person that likes them, but then again he has a bad habit of playing PC games. Give me a JRPG on console any day.
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#34 May 02 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Viertel wrote:
It's not the world's fault that you apparently need story spoon fed to you.
Its pretty bad design if you have to get a game's story from outside of the game.


Yeah, which is why some game's have prequel stories (read: lore) in the form of books.
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#35 May 02 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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AmsaimSutavarg wrote:
Listen, I cant help it that people get bent out of shape because they have horrible tastes in games. And believe me there are plenty of people that hate the Elder Scrolls series. I only know one person that likes them, but then again he has a bad habit of playing PC games. Give me a JRPG on console any day.

The ongoing problem I have with ZAM is that it's sometimes difficult for my trolldar to discern flamebait from genuinely stupid posts.

This is one of those times.

Edit: Of course it's a genuinely stupid post; it's the poster I wonder about.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 9:41am by Almalexia
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#36 May 02 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Well this has been pretty entertaining. Yes I totally admit half of my responses were flamebait. You have to admit though, it is pretty **** funny. And I have been so bored lately. I don't think my posts were particularly stupid, because nothing I said was false or bad information. It is true that I play games with about 20 other people, and all but one of them prefer console style games over PC games. And there is a difference. Console games and PC games ususally have a very specific feel to them, and when it comes to RPGs I especially can't stand RPGs that are on PC 99% of the time. That is to say games specificaly made for PC, because I still don't like them when their ported over either. I guess thats why I liked FFXI so much, because it was designed so much with PS2 in mind. And the FF series in general takes a very involved approach with telling the storyline. Which always includes cut scenes and in game character exchanges, and not just a wall of text or a tome that you pick up and read. Plus, this is all my opinion, and I am not the only one that feels this way. Ultimately though, you can't take this too seriously. Its ok to have strong opinions and beliefs, just don't let my comments get to you. LOL. After all, I was just having some fun.
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#37 May 02 2011 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Lumps of lore in books and codex entries are an antiquated way of relating the game world to the player, this is true. I won't pretend like TES doesn't do this, and I won't defend Bethesda's decision to relate most of the lore this way. It is, after all, a 16-year-running franchise that is pretty set in its ways (maybe Skyrim will finally change things up--or not, who can say? 11/11/11!).

But I must point out that FFs and the traditional JRPGs are no different. In fact, I motion that they operate on a opposite extreme: rather than periodic reading assignments, the player has to watch movies to understand the game world. The FF series is not any "more involved" than a WRPG in this regard; it's just choosing a different medium to relate a ton of lore. This is a reasonable objection you can make: "I don't like TES/PC RPGs/WRPGs because lore is revealed through tomes and reading." But you can't seriously claim the lore sucks because you couldn't be assed to read it.

You don't "get to me" because of a difference of opinion. I don't care if you don't like TES, or PC RPGs, or strawberry ice cream. The issue is that you very clearly didn't read the lore books in TES, then sauntered into a lore thread and claimed how bad it is. It would be like me skipping every cutscene in FFXIII and telling you how "uninspired" the lore is. For the record, FFXIII lore is actually pretty interesting to me--it's the rest of the game that's not going to be discussed here. Deal with it.

I ought to mention that neither way of relating lore--lengthy books or lenghty cutscenes--is particularly good for a game. Games like Bioshock and Portal don't need to rob control from the player at every plot point in order to give depth to the game world. Why is this kind of design excluded from RPGs?

Also: to make up for my jab at FFXIII, go play Resonance of Fate.

Edited, May 2nd 2011 10:24pm by Almalexia
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#38 May 02 2011 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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Thats the spirit Almalexia!!

I'll take Resonance of Fate under advisory.

While I don't particularly care for the way Bethesda has done Elder Scrolls story in the past, I will be paying attention with what they do with Skyrim. If for no other reason than any RPGs are on my radar until I have been given a reason to remove them.
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#39 May 03 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel I need to apologize. My original post was sincere, and when I last looked at this thread, I thought people handled my little stupid annoyance quite well. But somehow (go fig, I could have worded it better, and in hind-sight even mentioning WoW is almost as bad a slapping a baby...) the flame came out.

I got the answer I was looking for, and I really think people should let this thread die the horrible death it deserves.
#40 May 03 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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Also - shortened from Folklore:

Folklore consists of legends, music, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, fairy tales and customs that are the traditions of that culture, subculture, or group. It is also the set of practices through which those expressive genres are shared.

People use lore because it encompasses all these things that are expressed through in-game elements. They want to understand the various cultures that are in the game and their place in the world and the stories behind everything.



---
Goonies never say die!

Edited, May 3rd 2011 6:21pm by NayliaMR
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#41 May 05 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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I just wanted to add that I actually learned the word "Lore" in this sort of context from playing Everquest back in highschool (around 1997 or so). I feel kind of sad when people think WoW invented something that existed in Everquest because I loved that game so (and almost everything from WoW was in EQ).

Like a bunch of previous posters have mentioned, it refers to the backstory of the game. It's the history of the world you're playing in.

Edit: Also this:

NayliaMR wrote:
Also - shortened from Folklore:

Folklore consists of legends, music, oral history, proverbs, jokes, popular beliefs, fairy tales and customs that are the traditions of that culture, subculture, or group. It is also the set of practices through which those expressive genres are shared.

People use lore because it encompasses all these things that are expressed through in-game elements. They want to understand the various cultures that are in the game and their place in the world and the stories behind everything.


I always figured "lore" was from from "folklore" since it was like the history of the fantasy world we were playing in.


Edited, May 5th 2011 11:32pm by Rekia
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