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Editorial: A Game EmergingFollow

#1 May 03 2011 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Hey all,

Admittedly I haven't been playing too much lately, as I've been holding myself back until the first of the battle system changes are implemented into the game. I really enjoy the simple grinding aspect of the Final Fantasy series -- setting out into the open world to pit myself against numerous foes -- and I don't see the point in doing that now if the battle system is about to be improved. However, I've been logging in to check out some quests and other additions to the game, and I must say, I'm impressed. After every patch, this game feels a little more like it should have at launch, and I believe we're getting close to seeing what Yoshi-P really has in store for us.

This is the subject of my new editorial, which you can check out here.

Discuss it here!
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#2 May 03 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Thayos wrote:
Make no mistake though -- soon Yoshi-P's vision will become much easier to see.
Reminds me of this:
insanekangaroo, 2010-10-05 15:39:22 wrote:
when the golden patch arrives everybody will change all of their minds and be happy.

mark my words.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1286302197201982250&page=1&howmany=100#msg1286311162126903416

And this:
Wint, 2010-10-29 21:39:10 wrote:
My guess (and you can bookmark this and laugh at me in a year if I'm wrong) is that we will all be laughing about the launch problems of this game a year from now and they'll have things ironed out. Others may not have the faith in SE, but I do.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=12883688656272459&page=1&howmany=100#msg128840635057748639

Are we halfway there, Wint?

Funny though how much less definitive the statements have become over time. The defenders went from "golden patch that brings everyone back" to a month later "ironing things out in a year" to six months later "we'll eventually see what Yoshi-P is getting at."

There have certainly been improvements, but I just don't know how big they need to go to turn the status of the game around. I'd suggest going as far as getting a new game engine to reduce the accessibility issues of the steep system requirements and inherently poor performance, but I know of all potential changes that's by far the least likely.





Don't worry, by the way, I'm sitting on some more quotes of people who wanted their words "marked". (Lest we forget the classics). I'm waiting patiently to kick someone in the balls; and Wint: http://www.adweek.com/news/television/zynga-kills-soaps-130951

Looks like Zynga is still doing ok. :P They're getting enough business to kill off Soap Operas. I'll call that a win for society overall.





Edited, May 4th 2011 12:47am by bsphil
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#3 May 03 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the game but I wish I could play my main with my wifes mine is 45 and hers is 33 so when we play together the SP is crap. No clue when I will actually get a 50 because of this lol.
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#4 May 04 2011 at 12:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The defenders went from "golden patch that brings everyone back" to a month later "ironing things out in a year" to six months later "we'll eventually see what Yoshi-P is getting at."


That's a bit of a stretch. Everyone who has been following the game knows the plan was never to release a single "golden patch," but rather to release a series of small patches that set the groundwork for larger patches with more substantial changes. This June patch will be the first of those more substantial patches we've been building toward.

I do admire your tenacity though, not just anyone would actually keep a file of quotes from different ZAM posters.
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#5 May 04 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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Everyone who has been following the game knows the plan was never to release a single "golden patch,"


Not true. Shortly before and during the first two months after release, you would get ripped to pieces and displayed on the forum pillory if you did *NOT* believe in the golden patch theory.


Edited, May 4th 2011 2:50am by Rinsui
#6 May 04 2011 at 1:00 AM Rating: Good
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Nice work, Thayos.

My biggest hope is that these next (at least) six weeks are filled with information.

I know it takes time to develop, but they have to at least know what they're developing at this point to plan on delivering it in such a short amount of time.

The player base still sees the game as an uncut block because we've only been told "it'll look like a person."

I have high hope that these mysterious events will culminate into something worthwhile to pass the time. But it'd still be nice to get at least a post a week describing these changes.

Anything to make it feel like this is t a blind leading the blind situation.
#7 May 04 2011 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Thayos wrote:
Everyone who has been following the game knows the plan was never to release a single "golden patch,"
I bet I could find at least one person.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#8 May 04 2011 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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As always Thayos, I really admire your optimism regarding FFXIV and it's progress toward becoming a game worth playing.

Thayos wrote:
The improvements to this game have never stopped coming. The world now is populated by numerous quests and notorious monsters.

Now if only we could populate it with players willing to log in for more than half an hour...

Thayos wrote:
Everyone who has been following the game knows the plan was never to release a single "golden patch," but rather to release a series of small patches that set the groundwork for larger patches with more substantial changes.

As an admin, I'm assuming you got one of the golden tickets ZAM passed out to join the testing. If you did, then I don't think you really believe what you just said. If you didn't, 99% of the testers who posted to those forums would like to have a word with you. They were all certain that the 'miracle patch' was going to be implemented prior to release. Then shortly after release. Then a month after release... so on. The plan was never discussed until SE, Yoshi and their new policy on communicating with players surfaced months after that.

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#9 May 04 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
The targeting system was also perfected. Once a lightning rod of frustration among players, the targeting system of FFXIV is now virtually identical to that of FFXI, as long as you use targeting mode A.

Have I missed something? Did I fall asleep for twenty years like Rip Van Winkle? You continue to be optimisic, great, but c'mon haha.
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#10 May 04 2011 at 5:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I liked FFXIV a lot more before it came out.
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#11 May 04 2011 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Hey all,

Admittedly I haven't been playing too much lately, as I've been holding myself back until the first of the battle system changes are implemented into the game. I really enjoy the simple grinding aspect of the Final Fantasy series -- setting out into the open world to pit myself against numerous foes -- and I don't see the point in doing that now if the battle system is about to be improved. However, I've been logging in to check out some quests and other additions to the game, and I must say, I'm impressed. After every patch, this game feels a little more like it should have at launch, and I believe we're getting close to seeing what Yoshi-P really has in store for us.

This is the subject of my new editorial, which you can check out here.

Discuss it here!


Thayos, thanks for the post. Your quote "I really enjoy the simple grinding aspect of the Final Fantasy series" - You might be one of the few. Simple grinding you are right, dodo's, goats, and doing the same quests over and over. Seeming you aren't even 1/2 way to 50... I think you might change you mind on that one. Nanawa Mines grind still?

Are you talking about the crafting grind? Now that's a hoot! You haven't even broken down any crystals I bet. I would becareful to post you enjoy the grind (after stating you haven't played in awhile twice), ask any crafter how fun the crafting grind is. Or better the Botany, Mining, or fishing grind... oh my... awful

I have to take all your posts with a grain of salt because you haven't really seen or played that much. If another 30ish player posted they don't play much and enjoy the grind of FFXIV they would get ripped up on this thread.

Just my observation.
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#12 May 04 2011 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Having stepped away around Christmas and coming back recently...the changes are certainly noticeable, and I'm finding myself enjoying things a lot more currently. To the point where I can actually see myself sticking with the game at this point, even in it's current state (although that won't be the case).

I agree with Thayos, though...a lot of people use the "grind" as the negative, whereas I always saw the way FFXI was designed (prior to FoV being included) as enjoyable and even a social opportunity to just "play" the game. Partying was a big thing I missed that other MMO's don't include other than dungeons and raiding. So when FFXIV came down the chute, I was hoping for more of this. I'm glad they're working to clean up the partying system in FFXIV, but I am also glad to actually take the time to both skill up a DoW/DoM classes and DoL/DoH classes. The required time for crafting is reminiscent of FFXI...which I very much enjoyed.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose...but SE's design focus for MMO's thus far is the one I enjoy the most. So much so that if FFXIV were to crumble at this point, I would just go back to FFXI since it's the only other MMO I've every really been able to get very attached to.
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#13 May 04 2011 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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Coming from someone who picked up the game less than a week ago, I've had a pretty good experience so far. I tried out open beta to only have my game client crash every time I was on the Character Creation screen, so this is my first real taste of FFXIV. Because I've started half a year after launch I didn't get hit with everything they have improved upon until this point, which is great for my morale to stay with the game. All in all I'm looking forward to see where this game ends up, and I can't wait to see what 1.18 brings us.
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#14 May 04 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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I think this part sums up most of how I feel right now:

Quote:
As I write this, I'm watching my daughter play on her character, Rue. She hasn't played in awhile. After 10 minutes of running around Ul'dah, she's already picked up a couple of quests and found more on the task board in the Adventurer's Guild. Now she's in the market wards, using the search feature to optimize her gear. She's literally playing a game that didn't exist at the start of this year.


The part that's still missing for me is something to really chase after. In FFXI it was AF, Sky gear, CoP Rings, etc. that really drove me to play and to find people that were also after that stuff. Something as (relatively) simple as making some class specific, awesome looking gear would probably get me to play a lot more.

If SE can come up with that by June I'd probably be willing to pay to play.
#15 May 04 2011 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Once again it sounds like the people who really enjoy it aren't hardcore gamers.

Bsphil brought up Zynga games; I think the comparison is relevant. I'm not sure why you brought them up, specifically--to demonstrate that simple, accessible game engines outperform sophisticated, inaccessible ones in attracting a player base?--but "the simple grind" of FFXIV is, IMHO, more engaging than the simple grind of Farmville. While hardcore gamers are wont to scoff at Zynga games and their transparent pointlessness and insipid game mechanics, there is a segment of the gaming community that enjoys that repetition, predictability, and slow progression in a social atmosphere. I'd say it's possible FFXIV appeals to a similar crowd, albeit one with better machines and, more than likely, a specific interest in JRPGs or Final Fantasy. My LS leader, for example, claims this is really only the second game she's ever played.

Were FFXIV F2P, and, as bsphil suggested, benefited from a revamped, more accessible engine, I could see this game succeeding among the casual crowd. But as it stands, the hardware requirements are not casual friendly, the introduction to the game is not casual friendly (I died several times on my second levequest, and I have MMO experience and had been reading the forums for months), and I'm not sure how the PS3 port will change that (I really doubt there's much overlap between Zynga gamers and PS3 owners).

The changes they are making to the game clearly benefit lowbies and newbies more than 50s, so they are clearly working on making the game more casual, newbie friendly. I suspect they know they lost the hardcore gamer crowd to Korean MMOs, WoW, or whatever is on the horizon.

Sidenote: When I run around Ul'Dah, I see crafters galore--more crafters than I remember seeing in an Aion capital back when it was still a popular game. All of my hardcore WoW friends seem totally uninterested in crafting. I think the emphasis on crafting and the unique sales system (I'm not lauding it--I haven't ventured into the market wards yet because I know what a headache they can be) are also telling that SE is trying to appeal to a different crowd, and to me crafting indicates "social, casual, not rushing to endgame." The sort of crowd that Second Life might have appealed to, or the Sims Online. Given the state of Second Life, I think if FFXIV can work to appeal to that crowd (making it F2P would be a good step forward), they could really pick up a playerbase. But those players will demand a lot more creativity in crafting, but fortunately FFXIV's engine means those clothes (et al.) will look amazing.
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#16 May 04 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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NMs and quests that look a lot like levequests aren't going to make this game good, they're fluff to keep people busy. When the battle changes come, and if their dungeons are interesting in some ways, then I'll talk about the game as a whole improving. Right now they're just adding more to their poor game. Things are getting better but they are still miles away from good.
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#17 May 04 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Things are getting better but they are still miles away from good.


This.
#18 May 04 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
Thayos wrote:
The targeting system was also perfected. Once a lightning rod of frustration among players, the targeting system of FFXIV is now virtually identical to that of FFXI, as long as you use targeting mode A.

Have I missed something? Did I fall asleep for twenty years like Rip Van Winkle? You continue to be optimisic, great, but c'mon haha.


Nice spot Coyohma, you beat me to the punch. I cringed when I read that...."perfected"......really? Smashington is going to lose it; iirc targeting system is @ the top of his sh*t list.

Quote:
I liked FFXIV a lot more before it came out.


Hilarious. Rate up. You sir, are a DELIGHT!

Quote:
The required time for crafting is reminiscent of FFXI...which I very much enjoyed.


To each his own, but IMO absolutely everything in XIV takes too long. If I have 30 minutes to game, I can jump online in some MMO's and complete some quick quests, close some Rifts, fight off NPC invasions, run a daily dungeon, participate in some quick PvP, etc., all yielding some meaningful substantive / tangible reward.

In FFXIV if I only have 30 minutes to kill, I have time to sort my inventory, navigate some in-game menus, visit the leve counter, and run from Uldah to Camp Horizon. You might have time to solo a couple of leves or run a behest and earn a de minimis amount of SP for your efforts (relative to the 1,800,000 SP you need to reach cap on any job) and if there's any travel required to pick up mats or turn in the leve, I hope you have tons of anima.

I understand if SE leaves the brutal leveling curve in place to slow our progress while they work on content, but if this kind of leveling curve persists into the future of the game, I think SE is going to deter a lot of subscribers. The new "on-demand" generation of gamers (e.g. I need shiny's now!), and the recent explosion of "casual" gamers (e.g. Facebook games, iPhone games, Bejewled, etc.) has had a profound impact on the gaming industry for better and for worse.

Certain archaic MMO mechanics died off for a reason and should be left in 2003. There's a fine line between putting out a truly unique original product and blatantly ignoring what your end-user actually wants / needs. The MMO industry has trended away from sh*tty time sinks and grinds because most gamers don't want that anymore. That's why they are called trends. While I applaud SE's bravado in re-introducing dated gameplay mechanics (namely, a horrible long grind to cap), I sincerely hope that the gamble pays off.
#19 May 04 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
Once again it sounds like the people who really enjoy it aren't hardcore gamers.

Bsphil brought up Zynga games; I think the comparison is relevant. I'm not sure why you brought them up, specifically--to demonstrate that simple, accessible game engines outperform sophisticated, inaccessible ones in attracting a player base?--but "the simple grind" of FFXIV is, IMHO, more engaging than the simple grind of Farmville. While hardcore gamers are wont to scoff at Zynga games and their transparent pointlessness and insipid game mechanics, there is a segment of the gaming community that enjoys that repetition, predictability, and slow progression in a social atmosphere. I'd say it's possible FFXIV appeals to a similar crowd, albeit one with better machines and, more than likely, a specific interest in JRPGs or Final Fantasy. My LS leader, for example, claims this is really only the second game she's ever played.

Were FFXIV F2P, and, as bsphil suggested, benefited from a revamped, more accessible engine, I could see this game succeeding among the casual crowd. But as it stands, the hardware requirements are not casual friendly, the introduction to the game is not casual friendly (I died several times on my second levequest, and I have MMO experience and had been reading the forums for months), and I'm not sure how the PS3 port will change that (I really doubt there's much overlap between Zynga gamers and PS3 owners).

The changes they are making to the game clearly benefit lowbies and newbies more than 50s, so they are clearly working on making the game more casual, newbie friendly. I suspect they know they lost the hardcore gamer crowd to Korean MMOs, WoW, or whatever is on the horizon.

Sidenote: When I run around Ul'Dah, I see crafters galore--more crafters than I remember seeing in an Aion capital back when it was still a popular game. All of my hardcore WoW friends seem totally uninterested in crafting. I think the emphasis on crafting and the unique sales system (I'm not lauding it--I haven't ventured into the market wards yet because I know what a headache they can be) are also telling that SE is trying to appeal to a different crowd, and to me crafting indicates "social, casual, not rushing to endgame." The sort of crowd that Second Life might have appealed to, or the Sims Online. Given the state of Second Life, I think if FFXIV can work to appeal to that crowd (making it F2P would be a good step forward), they could really pick up a playerbase. But those players will demand a lot more creativity in crafting, but fortunately FFXIV's engine means those clothes (et al.) will look amazing.


I'm curious if you played FFXI, and if so, to what degree? Chances are, a lot of the current population are/were faithful FFXI players who quite possibly realize how beneficial it can be to have a leg up on crafting in relation to how FFXI was designed. What better time than right off the bat, early, when the game is fresh and the populations are low, to get your crafting skills up quickly?

And I think SE's direction with immediate changes (up until 1.18 which will have a lot of content...so they say...), is to not address low level characters or casual players, but to address functionality and continuity with low levels in terms of making the game "enjoyable" rather than annoying and void of anything that would make you want to play at any level of repetition. Content is almost always typically lacking for high levels early in the game. And while FFXIV follows a different "standard", mainly because of the absolute cluster**** of a launch it had and the change in development management, it's still going to fall prey to the same (and more) standard MMO issues at launch.

FFXIV isn't going to remain F2P, but it's likely going to be a much different game than what it was at launch when they start charging. It already is. People will play "good" games, regardless of hardcore/casual. You bring up WoW, and that's a direct example of what "good" games can achieve. And not on a multi-million subscriber level, either...FFXI is testament that games don't require that many players to survive. ;)
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#20 May 04 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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thejones wrote:

I understand if SE leaves the brutal leveling curve in place to slow our progress while they work on content, but if this kind of leveling curve persists into the future of the game, I think SE is going to deter a lot of subscribers. The new "on-demand" generation of gamers (e.g. I need shiny's now!), and the recent explosion of "casual" gamers (e.g. Facebook games, iPhone games, Bejewled, etc.) has had a profound impact on the gaming industry for better and for worse.

Asian players still like grinding though. I don't see that going anywhere in FFXIV.
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#21 May 04 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:

Asian players still like grinding though. I don't see that going anywhere in FFXIV.


I'm wondering how much longer that stereotype is going to last. From the last major poll about battle changes, proportionally more japanese players wanted the game to be more solo/casual friendly than NA players.
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#22 May 04 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
yfaithfully wrote:

Asian players still like grinding though. I don't see that going anywhere in FFXIV.


I'm wondering how much longer that stereotype is going to last. From the last major poll about battle changes, proportionally more japanese players wanted the game to be more solo/casual friendly than NA players.


Also more social, but there's a lot more Japanese players in XIV than there are western it seems (just look at the blogs on lodestone alone lol.) It's a not a stereotype *****, since if you've played a lot of Korean, Chinese and Japanese MMOs a lot are on the grind heavy side in some way.

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#23 May 04 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
yfaithfully wrote:

Asian players still like grinding though. I don't see that going anywhere in FFXIV.


I'm wondering how much longer that stereotype is going to last. From the last major poll about battle changes, proportionally more japanese players wanted the game to be more solo/casual friendly than NA players.


Also more social, but there's a lot more Japanese players in XIV than there are western it seems (just look at the blogs on lodestone alone lol.) It's a not a stereotype *****, since if you've played a lot of Korean, Chinese and Japanese MMOs a lot are on the grind heavy side in some way.



No you're right, about the korean and chinese games. I guess my point was that japanese gamers don't follow the same trend as other asian countries.
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#24 May 04 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Ryneguy wrote:
a lot of people use the "grind" as the negative, whereas I always saw the way FFXI was designed (prior to FoV being included) as enjoyable and even a social opportunity to just "play" the game. Partying was a big thing I missed that other MMO's don't include other than dungeons and raiding.


I agree with this. Also, in all the other MMOs I've played, where just about the only time you play with people is in some sort of level-appropriate 20-30 minute dungeon, everyone else could be badly-scripted bots and I'd have difficulty noticing. Nobody converses - in fact, usually nobody utters a word (unless it's an occasional insult, complaint, or slur: that's how you tell the bots from the players) - and I usually leave wondering why I even bother trying MMOs that feel multiplayer by technicality.
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#25 May 04 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I have to agree with thayos.

I am what you would call an old school gamer, I love grabbing a few people go and find a spot and grind for hours on end. Right now its 3 of us static and we grab a mage or 3 to come out with us. Last night we went into tam tara for a 3 hour session and had boatlods of fun. We switched br's from casters on top to melees on top and destroyed efts for hours on end. no one realized the time, why? because we were having fun.

To this the battle system worked and it worked well with our party. We didn't need an EPIC DUNGEON CRAWL, or some insane nm, we all had roles (omg surprise eh). I was on pug friend was LNC another was ARC x3 conj. No one was a dedicated healer, no one was a dedicated tank, everyone DD'd it was a very collaborative effort that flowed like water in a creek.

Personally I feel this game has come a long way in many aspects. The UI is way faster, and more streamlined. Combat delay is lmost gone, client side UI would make this a non issue as most would agree. Party creation system is just missing a lfg group feature, that integrates with the recruitment feature already built in. Would be great to pop up an inv to allow people to join and also invite people seeking a party.

Personally the game is growing and the underlying framework is very stable right now. So we will start seeing the content coming along side with system changes.
#26 May 04 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Ryneguy wrote:
a lot of people use the "grind" as the negative, whereas I always saw the way FFXI was designed (prior to FoV being included) as enjoyable and even a social opportunity to just "play" the game. Partying was a big thing I missed that other MMO's don't include other than dungeons and raiding.


I agree with this. Also, in all the other MMOs I've played, where just about the only time you play with people is in some sort of level-appropriate 20-30 minute dungeon, everyone else could be badly-scripted bots and I'd have difficulty noticing. Nobody converses - in fact, usually nobody utters a word (unless it's an occasional insult, complaint, or slur: that's how you tell the bots from the players) - and I usually leave wondering why I even bother trying MMOs that feel multiplayer by technicality.

This is how PUGs go in every game. Well, no, this is how a good PUG works in most games; more often than not, instead of only silent, underperforming teammates, you get one or two griefers in PUGs that make you wonder why you bother playing video games at all. And you get those in MMO dungeons, as well. They're usually the only ones talking.

Were PUGs in FFXI any different?

And there are plenty of social guilds in other MMOs, and you can find folks to quest with if you really want to. I'm pretty anti-social when I'm in game and I've randomly hooked up with other players in WoW to complete 2-man or 3-man quests.
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#27 May 04 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I am still happy with FFXIV. I will admit that I would be considered a casual gamer as I only play a couple hours a night, and a bit extra on the weekends. I only just last night got my First R50 class. Since I have been playing since release (7 months ago) I will post what I have found to be exciting and what I am hoping Emerges.

Good: Storyline Videos/Story thus far. Increased Crafting Speed. Greatly Improved Market Wards. Implementation of Side Quests. NM's and Low Level NM's. Behest. Monster Info Banner.

With the Emergence of Grand Companies and the Numerous Sidequest that are now available that start to explain what they are. There is plenty to do besides the typical grind. I most hope to see more of what the Grand Companies are all about in the near future. As far as "The Golden Patch" I feel that all of the patches have been pretty golden, and I can at least say that after a patch I can always look foreward to seeing the Hardcore players come back for a couple weeks to explore all the new content. As well, there are those that flame and say they are leaving, and I look foreward to seeing them after a new patch too. So there are alot of people that have hope, and just as many that see a game Emerging.
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#28 May 04 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
Were PUGs in FFXI any different?

And there are plenty of social guilds in other MMOs, and you can find folks to quest with if you really want to. I'm pretty anti-social when I'm in game and I've randomly hooked up with other players in WoW to complete 2-man or 3-man quests.


I think they were. Sure, you had stereotypical experiences with inexperienced players and/or "I-don't-care-etc." attitudes...but in general the overall social experience of early FFXI was much different than nearly all MMO's post World of Warcraft. And I don't say that with angst, it's just how the MMO genre developed in the wake of the financial success bestowed upon Blizzard for embracing the current MMO model that is so common these days.

It's social atmosphere's design, too. There were no instances and encounters took a long time back then. You invested in what you did, who you spent your time with playing, etc. Encounters like Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Etc...they required a lot of time and preparation. You couldn't server hop or just spend $25 to change your characters name, people where branded with their attitudes and their ability to play.

So when it came to "partying", it was an affair of playing the game. That's what you did. You could solo (not effectively, so it was rare), but for the most part people got together and participated in Exp groups in varying social degrees...sometimes for hours upon hours. There weren't typical quests. Everything in the game was designed around playing "with" other people. So yes, PuG's were different in FFXI, in my opinion. In a good, different way. (^.^);
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#29 May 04 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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yfaithfully wrote:
Bsphil brought up Zynga games; I think the comparison is relevant. I'm not sure why you brought them up, specifically
Ask Wint. (Or search the forum)

I wasn't trying to make any comparisons to FFXIV.



Edited, May 4th 2011 12:52pm by bsphil
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#30 May 04 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for marking my words.
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#31 May 04 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
Thank you for marking my words.
¯\(º_o)/¯

You told me to.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#32 May 04 2011 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Thank you for marking my words.
¯\(º_o)/¯

You told me to.


Much appreciated.

My words still stand.
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#33 May 04 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Ryneguy wrote:
yfaithfully wrote:
Were PUGs in FFXI any different?

And there are plenty of social guilds in other MMOs, and you can find folks to quest with if you really want to. I'm pretty anti-social when I'm in game and I've randomly hooked up with other players in WoW to complete 2-man or 3-man quests.


I think they were. Sure, you had stereotypical experiences with inexperienced players and/or "I-don't-care-etc." attitudes...but in general the overall social experience of early FFXI was much different than nearly all MMO's post World of Warcraft. And I don't say that with angst, it's just how the MMO genre developed in the wake of the financial success bestowed upon Blizzard for embracing the current MMO model that is so common these days.

It's social atmosphere's design, too. There were no instances and encounters took a long time back then. You invested in what you did, who you spent your time with playing, etc. Encounters like Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Etc...they required a lot of time and preparation. You couldn't server hop or just spend $25 to change your characters name, people where branded with their attitudes and their ability to play.

So when it came to "partying", it was an affair of playing the game. That's what you did. You could solo (not effectively, so it was rare), but for the most part people got together and participated in Exp groups in varying social degrees...sometimes for hours upon hours. There weren't typical quests. Everything in the game was designed around playing "with" other people. So yes, PuG's were different in FFXI, in my opinion. In a good, different way. (^.^);


Good except for the part where half the 8 hours you had to budget for a party was waiting for the party to form and the other half actually grinding the mobs.
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#34 May 04 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Make no mistake though -- soon Yoshi-P's vision will become much easier to see.
Reminds me of this:
insanekangaroo, 2010-10-05 15:39:22 wrote:
when the golden patch arrives everybody will change all of their minds and be happy.

mark my words.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1286302197201982250&page=1&howmany=100#msg1286311162126903416

And this:
Wint, 2010-10-29 21:39:10 wrote:
My guess (and you can bookmark this and laugh at me in a year if I'm wrong) is that we will all be laughing about the launch problems of this game a year from now and they'll have things ironed out. Others may not have the faith in SE, but I do.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=12883688656272459&page=1&howmany=100#msg128840635057748639

Are we halfway there, Wint?

Funny though how much less definitive the statements have become over time. The defenders went from "golden patch that brings everyone back" to a month later "ironing things out in a year" to six months later "we'll eventually see what Yoshi-P is getting at."


This is excellent. Couldn't have said it better myself.

There is no one patch that's going to make all the problems go away. The only caveat I could accept is the PS3 expansion pack I presume is coming, but even in that case, it will have been backed by the slow, iterative process of fixing the game that's currently underway.

The sad thing is, even with all the effort that has been put in so far, the game might not be fixable. It's got a chance, and it's fine to keep positive about it, but there is no guarantee that FFXIV will end up a winner.
#35 May 04 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
The game is definitely fixable. The real question is, will people come back to it at the ps3 launch, even if it is fixed?
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#36 May 04 2011 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
The game is definitely fixable. The real question is, will people come back to it at the ps3 launch, even if it is fixed?


If it's fun people will play.

Final Fantasy has a huge loyal following, and if word spreads that this game has (miraculously) gotten good, people will come and play.
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#37 May 04 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with patches up to this point is that everything is hinging on the changes to the battle system.

After they finally release it, there will likely be a flood of quality patches as they've had teams working on multiple things. It's just a matter of getting the battle system out that everything else is intended for.
#38 May 04 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
The problem with patches up to this point is that everything is hinging on the changes to the battle system.

After they finally release it, there will likely be a flood of quality patches as they've had teams working on multiple things. It's just a matter of getting the battle system out that everything else is intended for.

We can only hope.
#39 May 04 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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XenoKrates wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
The problem with patches up to this point is that everything is hinging on the changes to the battle system.

After they finally release it, there will likely be a flood of quality patches as they've had teams working on multiple things. It's just a matter of getting the battle system out that everything else is intended for.

We can only hope.


and pray.
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#40 May 04 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Sephrick wrote:
The problem with patches up to this point is that everything is hinging on the changes to the battle system.

After they finally release it, there will likely be a flood of quality patches as they've had teams working on multiple things. It's just a matter of getting the battle system out that everything else is intended for.
That'd be nice.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#41 May 04 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:
XenoKrates wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
The problem with patches up to this point is that everything is hinging on the changes to the battle system.

After they finally release it, there will likely be a flood of quality patches as they've had teams working on multiple things. It's just a matter of getting the battle system out that everything else is intended for.

We can only hope.


and pray.

That too, but probably more of that than hope :P
#42 May 04 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I understand if SE leaves the brutal leveling curve in place to slow our progress while they work on content, but if this kind of leveling curve persists into the future of the game, I think SE is going to deter a lot of subscribers. The new "on-demand" generation of gamers (e.g. I need shiny's now!), and the recent explosion of "casual" gamers (e.g. Facebook games, iPhone games, Bejewled, etc.) has had a profound impact on the gaming industry for better and for worse.


Brutal leveling curve? It takes roughly 5-6 weeks of doing leves to go from rank 20-50. I don't know what your rationale is but that is one of the quickest leveling curves i've been a part of. FFXI was at least a 3 month leveling curve pre-abyssea, as was WoW.

Not to mention they are going to get rid of the fatigue system with the upcoming battle changes, making it easier to level every class

Edited, May 4th 2011 9:17pm by xSanctusx
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#43 May 04 2011 at 10:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
Everyone who has been following the game knows the plan was never to release a single "golden patch,"


Not true. Shortly before and during the first two months after release, you would get ripped to pieces and displayed on the forum pillory if you did *NOT* believe in the golden patch theory.


Edited, May 4th 2011 2:50am by Rinsui

i remember the 2 gig patch that was supposed to take place in november.... never saw it.

although thayos wants a modern FFXI, i personally hope FFXI stays where it is and FFXIV does what it can do attract more people without losing its entire identity.
this game isnt one persons artistic vision, and, to me, is there for a worldwide product that needs to be molded to attract the general MMOer aswell as keep its own identity and uniqueness. to me that is the opposite of FFXI.

Edited, May 5th 2011 12:34am by pixelpop
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#44 May 05 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
The game is definitely fixable. The real question is, will people come back to it at the ps3 launch, even if it is fixed?


Don't be so sure. They're being very careful about their next steps because this is their last chance. If they get it wrong again for the PS3 launch, I really doubt Square is going to double down once more for yet another year+ fix-up attempt. If they had an infinite amount of time and money they couldn't lose, but they don't have that luxury.

Time is of the essence, and there isn't much left.
#45 May 06 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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I think we are half way there... IMO of course.
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#46 May 06 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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If they create a good semi unique experience. The game can do great on the ps3 with the right pay model/good reviews. Maybe that combined with a better experience on the PC will bring some new or old pc players back.
I think one of the biggest problems this game faced was that most couldn't get game to run smooth on their pc. Add all the bad stuff reviewers said about it at launch just compounded the problem.
The fantasy themepark mmorpg genre has become oversaturated. But most often full sandbox experiences are not friendly to casuals. Hopefully SE can bring themepark quests, dungeons, and stuff of that nature to add uniform progression. But the game needs to have some player driven experiences in it as well to avoid becoming muddled in the sea of saturation.

Grind is in the eye of the beholder. Questers might call party xp grinders grindy. But on the other spectrum quest hub to quest hub can be grindy too. The truth is no matter what the content is, if there is not variety it becomes grindy. This game released with not enough variety. If it wishes to bounce back it needs dungeons, pvp, public type events, racing events, a built in FFT multiplayers version, airship PvE or PvP, etc, etc. Anything that allows many different kinds of players to come together and share different kinds of experiences in short amounts of time. But also offer some longterm goals besides level cap to bring that sense of accomplishment XI instilled for the players that stuck through the timesinks.
#47 May 06 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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While I agree with the OP and am looking forward to what is on the horizon for FFXIV, I feel like four or five months down the road we are going to see a backlash from all of the suggestion posters who think they know the best ways to fix the game.

When they come out with whatever the changes may be there is going to be the usual vocal minority that had their expectations set higher than what SE delivers, or thinks they should have approached battle changes differently, or adamantly swear that the game will fail no matter what solely because of its lack of PvP.

With the level of input the devs have been fishing for from players they have received some quality feedback from those who truly care about the future of the uniqueness of an FF MMO and its successes, and they have received some quality feedback from those who want this game to be something that I don't think it will ever be.

I am glad the overall feeling about the game has gone from disgusted to hopeful but I'm concerned that the hope will turn into "My idea was SOOOOO much better than what they did! SE doesn't listen to us anymore!!!" instead.

Edited, May 6th 2011 6:49pm by DesmondTierney
#48 May 06 2011 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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DesmondTierney wrote:
While I agree with the OP and am looking forward to what is on the horizon for FFXIV, I feel like four or five months down the road we are going to see a backlash from all of the suggestion posters who think they know the best ways to fix the game.

When they come out with whatever the changes may be there is going to be the usual vocal minority that had their expectations set higher than what SE delivers, or thinks they should have approached battle changes differently, or adamantly swear that the game will fail no matter what solely because of its lack of PvP.

With the level of input the devs have been fishing for from players they have received some quality feedback from those who truly care about the future of the uniqueness of an FF MMO and its successes, and they have received some quality feedback from those who want this game to be something that I don't think it will ever be.

I am glad the overall feeling about the game has gone from disgusted to hopeful but I'm concerned that the hope will turn into "My idea was SOOOOO much better than what they did! SE doesn't listen to us anymore!!!" instead.

Edited, May 6th 2011 6:49pm by DesmondTierney


Stuff like that wouldn't be surprising with all the strong opinions people have about what the game needs. No matter what they do with changes & new stuff someone's bound to not like it. So they need to go the route that ****** the least amount of people off & hope that others may think things like "Well it's not exactly what I was hoping for, but the game's a lot better now".
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#49 May 07 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Default
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I care not if they use their own ideas or othrs ideas. The time for playing it safe or settling for medocrity passed by at launch. Not having content that is standard in other games like PvP, massive scale PvE, and stuff and only offering limited content is part of what got them into trouble in the first place. If you think that players from others games are going to feel justified coming to this game with the same game systems but less content than them. And also require behemoth pc specs, you are mistaken. Yes they rushed launch, yest they released buggy, yes they they released laggy, yes they released with very little variety of content. But if these devs settle for just getting by playing it safe or timid and copy paste XI or any older mmo. This game already has one foot down deaths door.

The game needs to become kick you in the teeth awesome and pretty unique with feedback and features that slap you in the face. The end goal when the smoke clears should be:
We have better graphics, we have better music, we have richer storytelling, we have unique and deep battle systems, we offer gameplay styles for every type of player, our progression is top notch. But most of all. The devs should be able to say we have one of the strongest communities in mmos. While this game has some of your standard treadmill themepark content, We allso have rich player driven content. But no matter what you do in our game. Community and teamwork is encouraged at every facet. Please do not let the devs sell themselves++++ short because you think a feature is good enough, push them to strive for excellence and greatness. If we become content with mediocrity then the devs will think mediocrity is ok. Mediocrity has never been ok with this company, and this rebuilding proves that.
#50 May 08 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The game is definitely fixable. The real question is, will people come back to it at the ps3 launch, even if it is fixed?


By the time it's fixed there will be many new games out, any thunder XIV could muster might not matter in this situation, it's far more fun to go try a brand new MMO than an old MMO that failed.

This is why how slow they are working is so bad, by the time it's any good at all there will be a handful of amazing new PC MMO's out and some PS3 ones too. FFXIV has a horrible impression on most MMO gamers, even moreso on those that tested it and left.

Edited, May 8th 2011 12:07pm by preludes
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#51 May 08 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Funny though how much less definitive the statements have become over time. The defenders went from "golden patch that brings everyone back" to a month later "ironing things out in a year" to six months later "we'll eventually see what Yoshi-P is getting at."
I think is understandable, you know I was one of the avid defenders of the game on the first months, I still don't think it was delusional or fanboyish, the fact remains that during the years you build trust in certain things that have worked well for you, in this case that thing was SE, we had them in high regard (at least some of us) and we wouldn't believe that the company will release a money grab with such a poor quality or at least that they won't do it without an specific plan to fix it right away.

But FFXIV opened our eyes, that's a good thing, I praise to all of you who call FFXIV a failure from the begging and stay true to your opinion, you are simply better to judge games than the rest of us which said otherwise.

I don't think FFXIV will succeed, in other words it will never fulfill the expectative SE had of it, yet I don't think it will simply die, SE will keep those servers up for some time, and simply shout it down some years later after it's pride has been mildly satisfied.

Yoshi-P is doing a great work though, I admire the guy it's just that he got to the game too late.

Ken
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