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Does the responsibility lie with us?Follow

#1 May 09 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Default
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I was thinking this weekend, that this game is actually fantastic, and that I would love to see it get continued support, which will only happen if it eventually gets more players. Now the question is does this responsibility lie with us to help SE get it's playerbase into FFXIV?

I have already recruited alot of IRL friends who all refused to play it following the beta, and they are currently trying it out now, and all seem to be loving it. Our linkshell is planning some ingame stuff too to raise it's profile, but that won't help much when it comes to spreading the game around.

Am I being a muppet, or should we put an effort into trying to raise the games profile?
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#2 May 09 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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No the responsibility lies with SE, you should not invite friends into the game at this stage. The game is far from complete and the tons of bots running around unchecked makes me embarrassed to admit I still play this game. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
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#3 May 09 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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The game has more than its fair share of haters, I do feel some responsibility to speak out about it being better than it was and improving. But ultimately it is up to SE to make sure this game gets the attention it deserves
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#4 May 09 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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No matter who you bring the game to, they won't stay unless they like it. There's no point in recruiting friends for the game if they aren't going to stick with you, and furthermore they might even think you're a little wierd for playing this game that no one else seems to like.

Hey some people might like it though. I keep it installed and updated and every now and then pop in to see what's new. Some of my friends who started with me refuse to go back until they make major changes, which appear to be on the horizon, so who knows.
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#5 May 09 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Default
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It is an interesting point for discussion though, as personally I would love to see it get the attention it is starting to earn itself, but I feel partly that some of that responsibility rests on our shoulders, to get the word out that things are and have changed.

I think I wear rose coloured glasses sometimes though, as I seldom pay attention to negativity :(
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#6 May 09 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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I'd say invite people if you want, and you actually think they may enjoy it but be straight with them. This is a game that would have shut down had the publisher not decided to eat the cost for 6+ months now, but they're working on it. This is maybe a chance to get in on the ground floor of the next big thing, and its relatively cheap to get involved with it at this stage.

But to answer you're more on topic question, absolutely no way is it up to customers to sell a product for someone. word of mouth is a privilege and not a right/expectation and its something that should be earned with a good product.
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#7 May 09 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would probably recommend this game to friends if they ever asked if the game was worth trying for the first time.. which I think is a huge achievement compared to what the game was like near release. However, I would be a bit hesitant to recommend this game to someone who already played this game and quit, because i feel like there hasn't been enough drastic changes yet to spark a renaissance. Until this game reaches a point where I feel like old players would come back and stay for good, I would not go out of my way to try and contact old friends and bring them back.

#8 May 09 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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clarkeyboy wrote:
I was thinking this weekend, that this game is actually fantastic, and that I would love to see it get continued support, which will only happen if it eventually gets more players. Now the question is does this responsibility lie with us to help SE get it's playerbase into FFXIV?
Why should it ever rely on us to do unpaid advertising for SE? This isn't some individual indie developer here, they're big boys and girls; an international game development and production corporation can afford to do it on their own when they want to.

Hint: They don't want to.

clarkeyboy wrote:
personally I would love to see it get the attention it is starting to earn itself
I'm sure you would, but even among the people still playing the game, you'd probably have a hard time finding consensus for that. FFXIV is essentially in beta again, with the small caveat that you have to buy a license to try it out. When Yoshi-P feels the game is ready, it'll see the daylight again and get the attention it deserves. It just might not be the attention you think it deserves.



Edited, May 9th 2011 3:28pm by bsphil
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#9 May 09 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm holding out to see the battle changes before inviting my old FFXI friends to come check it out. While I'm enjoying myself, I don't believe anyone wants to come into a game with the promise of "it's getting better, but it's not quite there yet."
#10 May 09 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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At least until it has a fee to play it... then when you recruit people who will probably quit, they might pay a little bit more into the pool... >_>
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#11 May 09 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE is providing a recreational service. You don't have any duties or responsibilities to them other than playing by the rules and honoring your agreement.

Honestly I'm surprised and a little saddened that people are still playing this game in its current state.
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#12 May 10 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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lightacadi wrote:
I would probably recommend this game to friends if they ever asked if the game was worth trying for the first time.. which I think is a huge achievement compared to what the game was like near release. However, I would be a bit hesitant to recommend this game to someone who already played this game and quit, because i feel like there hasn't been enough drastic changes yet to spark a renaissance. Until this game reaches a point where I feel like old players would come back and stay for good, I would not go out of my way to try and contact old friends and bring them back.


This is exactly my point of view. To convince someone which has tried the game in the past will be a major effort because there aren't that many clear cut changes on the game, just a lot of improvement on the game as it was launched. Getting someone new to the game to try out will be much easier and imo successful.

I have met quite a lot on new people just joining the game in the last couple weeks and most of them are happly surprised by howw the game is at the moment. People are expecting the worst from reading articles and forums online but once they actually try it they enjoy the game as it.
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#13 May 10 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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clarkeyboy wrote:
I was thinking this weekend, that this game is actually fantastic, and that I would love to see it get continued support, which will only happen if it eventually gets more players. Now the question is does this responsibility lie with us to help SE get it's playerbase into FFXIV?

I have already recruited alot of IRL friends who all refused to play it following the beta, and they are currently trying it out now, and all seem to be loving it. Our linkshell is planning some ingame stuff too to raise it's profile, but that won't help much when it comes to spreading the game around.

Am I being a muppet, or should we put an effort into trying to raise the games profile?



I guess it would depend on a person to person basis. For the majority of people, this game is still in beta and not recommendable.

Ironically, it was a lot of us who thought it was our responsibly to "troll" this and other forums to show how bad this game actually was when it first came out; and probably why you're enjoying this game right now as it is.
#14 May 10 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump. Normally I'd pass off the remark as completely stupid but the more I think about it the more I kind of agree. Fact is there's not much that makes FFXIV feel like a Final Fantasy game to me.. maybe Generic Fantasy MMO XIV with hints at final fantasy and really good art.. but not Final Fantasy. I think it'll be more attractive when it reflects more icons from the FF series and not just moogles and molboros (and copied/pasted mobs/races from XI that were exclusive to XI).

Sadly I think that's several months away, if ever. One of the other complaints was the clunky battle system but the way things are going we might see improvement on that soon.
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#15 May 10 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
lightacadi wrote:
I would probably recommend this game to friends if they ever asked if the game was worth trying for the first time.. which I think is a huge achievement compared to what the game was like near release. However, I would be a bit hesitant to recommend this game to someone who already played this game and quit, because i feel like there hasn't been enough drastic changes yet to spark a renaissance. Until this game reaches a point where I feel like old players would come back and stay for good, I would not go out of my way to try and contact old friends and bring them back.


This is exactly my point of view. To convince someone which has tried the game in the past will be a major effort because there aren't that many clear cut changes on the game, just a lot of improvement on the game as it was launched. Getting someone new to the game to try out will be much easier and imo successful.

I have met quite a lot on new people just joining the game in the last couple weeks and most of them are happly surprised by howw the game is at the moment. People are expecting the worst from reading articles and forums online but once they actually try it they enjoy the game as it.



I have seen some new people trying the game also and yes most of them seem to enjoy the game until they get to upper 20s in crafting and 30s - 40s in fighting. Then the true grind of the game starts to show and wears people down.
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#16 May 10 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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clarkeyboy wrote:
Now the question is does this responsibility lie with us to help SE get it's playerbase into FFXIV?


Nope.

Nowai.

Notachance.

It's SE's game. It's their money to lose. It's up to them and them alone.

If they make a game people like, they will flock to the game. If they don't, then they won't. Simple as that.
#17 May 10 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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reptiletim wrote:
My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump. Normally I'd pass off the remark as completely stupid but the more I think about it the more I kind of agree. Fact is there's not much that makes FFXIV feel like a Final Fantasy game to me.. maybe Generic Fantasy MMO XIV with hints at final fantasy and really good art.. but not Final Fantasy. I think it'll be more attractive when it reflects more icons from the FF series and not just moogles and molboros (and copied/pasted mobs/races from XI that were exclusive to XI).

Sadly I think that's several months away, if ever. One of the other complaints was the clunky battle system but the way things are going we might see improvement on that soon.


i totally agree with this.

i hope with the battle changes they make more jobs defined like "this is a healer" and "this is your DPS dd" or "this is your hybrid class".

as it is now im not sure what to make of con and thm. con is a nuker with healing spells and buffs, and thm is a debuffer with heals and some nuke spells. i would much rather know what im playing exactly because these 2 jobs to me seem to much like a hybrid of everything. basically im nof the opinion that THM is healer because it actually gets decent range and AoE, and con is magic dd because of elemental nukes. but con is also like a melee rdm because of how close i need to get to target anything or hit it with AoE.
#18 May 11 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump. Normally I'd pass off the remark as completely stupid but the more I think about it the more I kind of agree. Fact is there's not much that makes FFXIV feel like a Final Fantasy game to me.. maybe Generic Fantasy MMO XIV with hints at final fantasy and really good art.. but not Final Fantasy. I think it'll be more attractive when it reflects more icons from the FF series and not just moogles and molboros (and copied/pasted mobs/races from XI that were exclusive to XI).

Sadly I think that's several months away, if ever. One of the other complaints was the clunky battle system but the way things are going we might see improvement on that soon.


i totally agree with this.

i hope with the battle changes they make more jobs defined like "this is a healer" and "this is your DPS dd" or "this is your hybrid class".

as it is now im not sure what to make of con and thm. con is a nuker with healing spells and buffs, and thm is a debuffer with heals and some nuke spells. i would much rather know what im playing exactly because these 2 jobs to me seem to much like a hybrid of everything. basically im nof the opinion that THM is healer because it actually gets decent range and AoE, and con is magic dd because of elemental nukes. but con is also like a melee rdm because of how close i need to get to target anything or hit it with AoE.


Personally statements like: "I'm not coming back till Lancer has Jump ability." or "I wont try the game again unless there is an Auction House." are just daft, if you restrict your enjoyment of a game because of a simple reason like this then you don't wan't the game to improve, you just want the game to be exactly what you want it to be for you and noone else.

In regards to the more defined classes I think everyone playing the game has felt that there isn't much difference between one class and another but I rememebr reading a post on Official forums some time ago which made me think; We need to stop thinkiing of FFXIV Classes as FFXI Jobs, they are not the same. Think more of the Classes as the building blocks that enable you to customize a Job by yourself.

I know you can't just "build" a Thief, or a Summoner but other Jobs could be done with the little ammount of Classes we have available ... Paladin, White Mage, Black Mage, Warrior, Dark Knight and even Samurai (although not yeilding a Katana).
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#19 May 11 2011 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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Fact is people wanted a FF MMO not generic with small touches of FF MMO. Lancer should have jump. Renaming it and removing Dragoon's defining ability was borderline retarded. FFXIV's classes are very generic and lack the visual charisma one has come to expect from a FF game. No it's not OK that most classes use the same gear. No it's not OK that there are very few class defining abilities. Nor is it OK that we still do not have chocobo's or other things that define FF games. At this point they could call the MMO Randomgenericmmoname.

And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:01am by Kayako

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:02am by Kayako
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#20 May 11 2011 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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Kayako wrote:
Fact is people wanted a FF MMO not generic with small touches of FF MMO. Lancer should have jump. Renaming it and removing Dragoon's defining ability was borderline retarded. FFXIV's classes are very generic and lack the visual charisma one has come to expect from a FF game. No it's not OK that most classes use the same gear. No it's not OK that there are very few class defining abilities. Nor is it OK that we still do not have chocobo's or other things that define FF games. At this point they could call the MMO Randomgenericmmoname.

And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:01am by Kayako

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:02am by Kayako


This is all true. It's basically just like XI, except made terrible. It's like, instead of Being 75WAR/37[DD Subjob that compliments] we're 75superwatered-downWAR/37 Everything in the game.

Nothing to me says Final Fantasy about this game except for seeing Chocobo NPCs on occasion. Oh, and the names Cure, Bio, Dia, and Poison. That's about all the FF that's in the game at this point. When's the last time you even saw a moogle?

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#21 May 11 2011 at 3:15 AM Rating: Decent
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This is all true. It's basically just like XI, except made terrible.


Chuckle.
I never thought I would agree.
#22 May 11 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope the changes they're working on make fighting a lot more fun & interesting with stats that matter more and bring out some of that potential we've been looking for. If they can do that, I don't care if they call it Lancer or Dragoon and if it can jump or not = D

Edited, May 11th 2011 5:26am by TwistedOwl
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#23 May 11 2011 at 4:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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clarkeyboy wrote:
It is an interesting point for discussion though, as personally I would love to see it get the attention it is starting to earn itself, but I feel partly that some of that responsibility rests on our shoulders, to get the word out that things are and have changed.

I think I wear rose coloured glasses sometimes though, as I seldom pay attention to negativity :(


Not to be negative, but try and look optimistically through those rosey glasses at the objective truth. Go back to the first posts from Yoshi about how much change this game is expected to go through. IIRC the words used were rebuild and reboot. Your friends could all try this game tomorrow and love it as much or more than you do, but the fact is that even if they do, it's going to be completely different than it is now with each successive patch.

No offense, but advertising for a product when you have a 9 month old demo that doesn't reflect half of the changes incoming is a horrible idea. Your energy would be much better spent posting as much feedback as you possibly can to improve the current state of the game and not worry about it's future. Baby steps.
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#24 May 11 2011 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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Kayako wrote:
Fact is people wanted a FF MMO not generic with small touches of FF MMO. Lancer should have jump. Renaming it and removing Dragoon's defining ability was borderline retarded. FFXIV's classes are very generic and lack the visual charisma one has come to expect from a FF game. No it's not OK that most classes use the same gear. No it's not OK that there are very few class defining abilities. Nor is it OK that we still do not have chocobo's or other things that define FF games. At this point they could call the MMO Randomgenericmmoname.

And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:01am by Kayako

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:02am by Kayako


So basically instead of a damage dealer that tank and cast healing magic you're looking for a Paladin. What is the differencfe, why are people so focused on the names... I would love to see the old names apply to the current classes but that still wound't change they way they interact of are perceived.

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweeT (or something)
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#25 May 11 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
So basically instead of a damage dealer that tank and cast healing magic you're looking for a Paladin. What is the differencfe, why are people so focused on the names... I would love to see the old names apply to the current classes but that still wound't change they way they interact of are perceived.

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweeT (or something)


Read my post again because if you think it was about simply changing the classes names you clearly did misinterpret it.
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#26 May 11 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I hope the changes they're working on make fighting a lot more fun & interesting with stats that matter more and bring out some of that potential we've been looking for. If they can do that, I don't care if they call it Lancer or Dragoon and if it can jump or not = D

Edited, May 11th 2011 5:26am by TwistedOwl


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#27 May 11 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.
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#28 May 11 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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clarkeyboy wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I hope the changes they're working on make fighting a lot more fun & interesting with stats that matter more and bring out some of that potential we've been looking for. If they can do that, I don't care if they call it Lancer or Dragoon and if it can jump or not = D

Edited, May 11th 2011 5:26am by TwistedOwl


You were the guy standing in Nanawa Mines all night last night AFK weren't you? I liked your name :)


Yup. Couple hours of grinding + behests made me sleepy

Quote:

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

And a bit of /dnc
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#29 May 11 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
Personally statements like: "I'm not coming back till Lancer has Jump ability." or "I wont try the game again unless there is an Auction House." are just daft
Daft or not, that's still their reason for not playing.

And yes, the jump example is silly, but I don't think the AH one is. There are still plenty of major, simple features missing in the current market ward search*, and no matter how good the search function is, there's still the seemingly useless gap of interaction between searching for items and buying them.



* = The option to filter search results based only on gear optimal for your current job (like FFXI) and the option to order search results by level or other stats (like FFXI).

Also, since most of the items in the index aren't sold in the proper locations, why not reduce some of the redundancy once you add those filters? Reorganize the search function to filter from major items down to specific gear types (like FFXI), i.e.: Weapons, Armor, Crafting materials, Food, etc on the first menu, then break armor (for example) down into slots... Having just started using the system, it seems very poorly organized in the search menu. I don't understand the point of having 4 or 5 different top-level options for the same types of items. Group those together and make sub-menus.

Honestly, the FFXI AH does have some good qualities to it, so I don't see why you couldn't just re-emphasize those good ideas while cutting or revamping the bad ones.







Edited, May 11th 2011 2:59pm by bsphil
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#30 May 11 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump.


Implementing any sort of jump feature is too demanding for SE.

This is tangential, but, a game where you can't jump totally puts off most potential players. As long as SE takes these clunky, esoteric choices towards game design (lack of auction house springs to mind), people aren't going to flock to it.
#31 May 11 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump.


Implementing any sort of jump feature is too demanding for SE.
Pretty sure that's referring to the ability "Jump" as an attack...? But that's also drawing the false connection between Lancer and Dragoon.

Jumping in general in a MMO that doesn't in any way require it is stupid though.
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#32 May 11 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Dizmo wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
My friend said the only way he'll return to the game was when Lancers could Jump.


Implementing any sort of jump feature is too demanding for SE.
Pretty sure that's referring to the ability "Jump" as an attack...? But that's also drawing the false connection between Lancer and Dragoon.

Jumping in general in a MMO that doesn't in any way require it is stupid though.


That's why I said "this is tangential".

Call it stupid all you want, but for most people coming to the game it's a standard feature they're used to. Every single person I've introduced to FFXI complained they couldn't jump. A slow and clunky game like this will not attract mainstream players.

Similarly with the auction house thing. SE cannot continue to make these hairbrained, isolationist design choices.

Edited, May 11th 2011 4:16pm by Dizmo
#33 May 11 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
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And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?
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#34 May 11 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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LateReg wrote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?


While in english the classes have names, in Japan its still Sword User, Axe User etc (if I'm not mistaken). They had to name the classes something so you could tell them apart via text, but they aren't really classes in the same way that FFXI had classes. I agree it doesn't translate well over here, and in fact the players wanted defined classes rather than this customization thing that we got.

I also think that while they did give us the tools to 'remake' the FFXI classes, the game was never intended to be balanced around them. People seem too worked up with trying to recreate Samurai, Paladin and RDM especially, and dragoon, that they aren't really looking at how to best use/combine abilities for this game.
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#35 May 11 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
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Hugus wrote:
Quote:
And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?


While in english the classes have names, in Japan its still Sword User, Axe User etc (if I'm not mistaken). They had to name the classes something so you could tell them apart via text, but they aren't really classes in the same way that FFXI had classes. I agree it doesn't translate well over here, and in fact the players wanted defined classes rather than this customization thing that we got.

I also think that while they did give us the tools to 'remake' the FFXI classes, the game was never intended to be balanced around them. People seem too worked up with trying to recreate Samurai, Paladin and RDM especially, and dragoon, that they aren't really looking at how to best use/combine abilities for this game.


I play on the Japanese version, and while you're correct about Sword and Axe, it doesn't follow suite for all of the classes, and the ability menus accurately reflect those in the English version.

For instance, you have the class Gladiator (which you switch to buy equipping a sword), when you gain experience on Gladiator, the SP goes towards learning new sword skills. The reasons why they chose Axe professional, Sword professional, Bow professional is unkown, because Thaumaturge and Conjurer in the Japanese version are given unique names, along with every crafting class and gathering class. And, since crafting and gathering were supposed to be "equal" classes to the DoW/Ms I find it hard to believe that they were trying to make ultra generic classes while giving the DoM's, DoH's, and DoL's unique names. What I believe they were doing is combining the old "skill" learning system with the EXP system from XI. Like, in XI I'm sure everyone knows you gained skills at random when using certain weapons, and all those skills transfered to any class who could use the same weapon. I think that was somewhat the goal in this, but they messed up and made virtually everything transferable. They've said that they realize their mistakes with "class uniqueness" which further leads me to believe that the classes themselves aren't supposed to just be a collection of skills, but rather unique classes as they were in XI.

Let's also not forget that Samurai, Summoner, and Bard are all in the DATs, and none of those are very generic classes in any sense.
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#36 May 11 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dizmo wrote:
Every single person I've introduced to FFXI complained they couldn't jump. A slow and clunky game like this will not attract mainstream players.
It's a bit of a leap though to connect "not being able to jump" to "slow and clunky".

No pun intended.




Edited, May 11th 2011 5:16pm by bsphil
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#37 May 11 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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LateReg wrote:


I play on the Japanese version, and while you're correct about Sword and Axe, it doesn't follow suite for all of the classes, and the ability menus accurately reflect those in the English version.

For instance, you have the class Gladiator (which you switch to buy equipping a sword), when you gain experience on Gladiator, the SP goes towards learning new sword skills. The reasons why they chose Axe professional, Sword professional, Bow professional is unkown, because Thaumaturge and Conjurer in the Japanese version are given unique names, along with every crafting class and gathering class. And, since crafting and gathering were supposed to be "equal" classes to the DoW/Ms I find it hard to believe that they were trying to make ultra generic classes while giving the DoM's, DoH's, and DoL's unique names. What I believe they were doing is combining the old "skill" learning system with the EXP system from XI. Like, in XI I'm sure everyone knows you gained skills at random when using certain weapons, and all those skills transfered to any class who could use the same weapon. I think that was somewhat the goal in this, but they messed up and made virtually everything transferable. They've said that they realize their mistakes with "class uniqueness" which further leads me to believe that the classes themselves aren't supposed to just be a collection of skills, but rather unique classes as they were in XI.

Let's also not forget that Samurai, Summoner, and Bard are all in the DATs, and none of those are very generic classes in any sense.


Right, well I knew that con and Thum wernt going to fit the weapon name thing. I do still think that the crafts do, and that the difference is that they really cannot be combined (weaver with a blacksmith ability is still just weaving). I mean Weaver is a better name than "needle user" in any language.

You're right that they were trying to go with skillups and weapons, rather than using levels and classes. I guess my point is they didn't want people to rigidly play Gladiator as a class, they wanted you to do what you want to do while being a guy holding a sword, and in this case anyone holding a sword is called a gladiator. I'm not defending the system, I think its dumb and apparently a lot of other people don't like it either, but thats my opinion on what I think they were going for. I think they're going to make the current 'classes' into actual classes in the future (as you said), but I don't think that was ever their intent.
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#38 May 11 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
LateReg wrote:


I play on the Japanese version, and while you're correct about Sword and Axe, it doesn't follow suite for all of the classes, and the ability menus accurately reflect those in the English version.

For instance, you have the class Gladiator (which you switch to buy equipping a sword), when you gain experience on Gladiator, the SP goes towards learning new sword skills. The reasons why they chose Axe professional, Sword professional, Bow professional is unkown, because Thaumaturge and Conjurer in the Japanese version are given unique names, along with every crafting class and gathering class. And, since crafting and gathering were supposed to be "equal" classes to the DoW/Ms I find it hard to believe that they were trying to make ultra generic classes while giving the DoM's, DoH's, and DoL's unique names. What I believe they were doing is combining the old "skill" learning system with the EXP system from XI. Like, in XI I'm sure everyone knows you gained skills at random when using certain weapons, and all those skills transfered to any class who could use the same weapon. I think that was somewhat the goal in this, but they messed up and made virtually everything transferable. They've said that they realize their mistakes with "class uniqueness" which further leads me to believe that the classes themselves aren't supposed to just be a collection of skills, but rather unique classes as they were in XI.

Let's also not forget that Samurai, Summoner, and Bard are all in the DATs, and none of those are very generic classes in any sense.


Right, well I knew that con and Thum wernt going to fit the weapon name thing. I do still think that the crafts do, and that the difference is that they really cannot be combined (weaver with a blacksmith ability is still just weaving). I mean Weaver is a better name than "needle user" in any language.

You're right that they were trying to go with skillups and weapons, rather than using levels and classes. I guess my point is they didn't want people to rigidly play Gladiator as a class, they wanted you to do what you want to do while being a guy holding a sword, and in this case anyone holding a sword is called a gladiator. I'm not defending the system, I think its dumb and apparently a lot of other people don't like it either, but thats my opinion on what I think they were going for. I think they're going to make the current 'classes' into actual classes in the future (as you said), but I don't think that was ever their intent.


Yeah, it's hard to tell. I certainly hope they do, this just isn't as fun as it sounded.
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#39 May 12 2011 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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LateReg wrote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?


Just looking at both FFXI and FFXIV I can see some similarities, I dont say that the class/job is the same but should be able to perform at the same effectivness:

11- Shield Bash: Instant Single Delivers an attack that can stun the target. Shield required.
14- Shield Bash: Slam an enemy with your shield, dealing blunt damage. May interrupt casts and temporarily render the target unable to cast again for several seconds.

11- Sentinel: Reduces physical damage taken and increases enmity.
14- Defender: Tighten your guard, increasing physical and magic defense while reducing attack power and magic potency. Increases enmity generation while under the effect of Steadfast.

11- Cover: Divert attacks to a party member to yourself.
14- Cover: Come to the aid of another, positioning yourself between the target ally and an enemy to redirect damage to yourself instead.

11- Defense Bonus: Increased Physical Defense
14- Rampart: Fight to protect yourself, increasing defense and magical defense.

11- Shield Defense Bonus: Reduces damage taken when blocking an attack with a shield.
14- Aegis Boon: Recover behind the safety of your shield, increasing defense against frontal attacks and converting blocked damage into HP.

11- Cure I:Restores target's HP.
14- Cure: Grant succor and ease suffering, restoring HP of target party member.

These are just some of the abilities which work both on PLD from FFXI and on GLA from FFXIV. Although I have a small ammount of experience on both jobs/classes I can see that even on some GLA has an upper hand.
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#40 May 12 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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Let me illustrate the issue for you Hugus.

In season 7 of Dr. Who. He is replaced by nurse What she can do everything Dr. Who can and some things even better than him. You think long time fans of Dr. Who would like this?

Paladins have a root in the FF series. People don't like the fact that they basically took out the classic classes and implemented some of their abilities on generic jobs. Who cares if you can do build "your own class!". People wanted their classic classes and SE wanted to distance themselves from previous FF's for some reason and changed allot of things they never should have and here we are. A game on life support and tops 20k people actively playing of which many would drop the game like a bad habit if they at this point started paid subscription.

NEVER cheat fans out of what they expect from the series they love.

Edited, May 12th 2011 9:48am by Kayako
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#41 May 12 2011 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kayako wrote:
Let me illustrate the issue for you Hugus.

In season 7 of Dr. Who. He is replaced by nurse What she can do everything Dr. Who can and some things even better than him. You think long time fans of Dr. Who would like this?

Paladins have a root in the FF series. People don't like the fact that they basically took out the classic classes and implemented some of their abilities on generic jobs. Who cares if you can do build "your own class!". People wanted their classic classes and SE wanted to distance themselves from previous FF's for some reason and changed allot of things they never should have and here we are. A game on life support and tops 20k people actively playing of which many would drop the game like a bad habit if they at this point started paid subscription.

NEVER cheat fans out of what they expect from the series they love.

Edited, May 12th 2011 9:48am by Kayako


If I am to go by you're train og though then the name is more important than the substance, that just feels wrong. In your opinion changing GLA to PLD would resolve the issue...

Also you might wanna look into the difference between FF Fan and FFXI Fan; Paladins are not that relevant on the FF series as a whole.
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#42 May 12 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Decent
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You think FFXI is the first FF paladin was in?

And yes making the MMO more like traditional FF and FFXI could only help get more people interested.
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#43 May 12 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Default
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Hugus wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?


Just looking at both FFXI and FFXIV I can see some similarities, I dont say that the class/job is the same but should be able to perform at the same effectivness:

11- Shield Bash: Instant Single Delivers an attack that can stun the target. Shield required.
14- Shield Bash: Slam an enemy with your shield, dealing blunt damage. May interrupt casts and temporarily render the target unable to cast again for several seconds.

11- Sentinel: Reduces physical damage taken and increases enmity.
14- Defender: Tighten your guard, increasing physical and magic defense while reducing attack power and magic potency. Increases enmity generation while under the effect of Steadfast.

11- Cover: Divert attacks to a party member to yourself.
14- Cover: Come to the aid of another, positioning yourself between the target ally and an enemy to redirect damage to yourself instead.

11- Defense Bonus: Increased Physical Defense
14- Rampart: Fight to protect yourself, increasing defense and magical defense.

11- Shield Defense Bonus: Reduces damage taken when blocking an attack with a shield.
14- Aegis Boon: Recover behind the safety of your shield, increasing defense against frontal attacks and converting blocked damage into HP.

11- Cure I:Restores target's HP.
14- Cure: Grant succor and ease suffering, restoring HP of target party member.

These are just some of the abilities which work both on PLD from FFXI and on GLA from FFXIV. Although I have a small ammount of experience on both jobs/classes I can see that even on some GLA has an upper hand.


Shield Bash is kinda bad, you compared Sentinel to Defender, when there's actually a Sentinel in XIV and it's really good, Aegis Boon isn't terribly good, and Cure is pretty awful on Melees unless you have Tier III and you're near optimal to use it, but there's no scenario where you'd really wanna cure yourself anyway.

I'm not trying to bash you, but the points you made just didn't justify your stance. PLD at the 50 cap in XI (I actually played that long ago >< lol) was better than GLA is now at 50 with abilities from every class at 50 mixed and matched, with best gear.

PLD could keep hate without sacrificing the ability to attack and do whatever other hate-building abilities, and most importantly... it didn't take very much damage.

Gladiator without Sentinel or Deflection (and Deflection isn't always that great either) up takes just as much damage as any other combat except Archer. What's that all about? And that's with defender up, and buffs, etc (not Sentinel ofc).

PLD was just naturally tougher. We need more of that uniqueness badly.

EDIT: Have you seen how much stamina Provoke/Taunt/Shield Abilities take up? :(
And taunt doesn't even stick! lol


Edited, May 12th 2011 10:51am by LateReg
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#44 May 12 2011 at 9:03 AM Rating: Good
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Kayako wrote:
You think FFXI is the first FF paladin was in?

And yes making the MMO more like traditional FF and FFXI could only help get more people interested.


I never said that FFXI was the first FF with PLD, I just said that as a class/job PLD wasn't actually in that many FFs. I still maintain that being anoyed at SE because the Gladiator class is not called Paladin when it can preaty much do the same thing is not a valid point (imo), pleople should want content and not labels.
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#45 May 12 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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LateReg wrote:
Hugus wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Hugus wrote:
Quote:
And the "You can build your own classic FF class!" Is bullsh*t sorry. Sure you can toss cure on Gladiator but it just makes it generic warrior prototype with cure spell attached.


I might be wrong, didnt really play PLD, but this is the meat of Paladin. You basically have a warrior which can mitigate damage and cast healing magic. So you CAN (within the abilities currently available in the game) create a Paladin from the classes available.

With TP increase abilities from lancer you can have a kind os Samuray, use Foresight from MRD and you gets Eye's Mind like ability...

Basically you want the job to be present with it's restriction, SE in FFXIV gave you classes to build your own Job.


That's cool and all, but when you actually do it, it ends up being a really, really, bad PLD, or a really, really bad SAM. If SE really wanted us to create or own unique classes, why are the classes given their own names? Also, when it comes time to give cool and unique gear a la Artifact armor, what are they gonna do for a gladiator who has a "Samurai" setup?


Just looking at both FFXI and FFXIV I can see some similarities, I dont say that the class/job is the same but should be able to perform at the same effectivness:

11- Shield Bash: Instant Single Delivers an attack that can stun the target. Shield required.
14- Shield Bash: Slam an enemy with your shield, dealing blunt damage. May interrupt casts and temporarily render the target unable to cast again for several seconds.

11- Sentinel: Reduces physical damage taken and increases enmity.
14- Defender: Tighten your guard, increasing physical and magic defense while reducing attack power and magic potency. Increases enmity generation while under the effect of Steadfast.

11- Cover: Divert attacks to a party member to yourself.
14- Cover: Come to the aid of another, positioning yourself between the target ally and an enemy to redirect damage to yourself instead.

11- Defense Bonus: Increased Physical Defense
14- Rampart: Fight to protect yourself, increasing defense and magical defense.

11- Shield Defense Bonus: Reduces damage taken when blocking an attack with a shield.
14- Aegis Boon: Recover behind the safety of your shield, increasing defense against frontal attacks and converting blocked damage into HP.

11- Cure I:Restores target's HP.
14- Cure: Grant succor and ease suffering, restoring HP of target party member.

These are just some of the abilities which work both on PLD from FFXI and on GLA from FFXIV. Although I have a small ammount of experience on both jobs/classes I can see that even on some GLA has an upper hand.


Shield Bash is kinda bad, you compared Sentinel to Defender, when there's actually a Sentinel in XIV and it's really good, Aegis Boon isn't terribly good, and Cure is pretty awful on Melees unless you have Tier III and you're near optimal to use it, but there's no scenario where you'd really wanna cure yourself anyway.

I'm not trying to bash you, but the points you made just didn't justify your stance. PLD at the 50 cap in XI (I actually played that long ago >< lol) was better than GLA is now at 50 with abilities from every class at 50 mixed and matched, with best gear.

PLD could keep hate without sacrificing the ability to attack and do whatever other hate-building abilities, and most importantly... it didn't take very much damage.

Gladiator without Sentinel or Deflection (and Deflection isn't always that great either) up takes just as much damage as any other combat except Archer. What's that all about? And that's with defender up, and buffs, etc (not Sentinel ofc).

PLD was just naturally tougher. We need more of that uniqueness badly.

EDIT: Have you seen how much stamina Provoke/Taunt/Shield Abilities take up? :(
And taunt doesn't even stick! lol


Edited, May 12th 2011 10:51am by LateReg


But that's not just because it's called Gladiator instead of Paladin = D

May not even completely be the fault of the armoury system itself. If stats weren't broken and battle mechanics didn't need such major overhauls maybe it would work more like people want? Perhaps that interesting materia system for crafting will allow for more effective hybrids between classes like that? That would be cool, but I have no idea really. I just can't join in all the rage about demanding classic names & such(less important things imo) until I see where they're going with these changes. Though we all can agree that a lot needs to be done.
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#46 May 12 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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LateReg wrote:
Shield Bash is kinda bad, you compared Sentinel to Defender, when there's actually a Sentinel in XIV and it's really good, Aegis Boon isn't terribly good, and Cure is pretty awful on Melees unless you have Tier III and you're near optimal to use it, but there's no scenario where you'd really wanna cure yourself anyway.

I'm not trying to bash you, but the points you made just didn't justify your stance. PLD at the 50 cap in XI (I actually played that long ago >< lol) was better than GLA is now at 50 with abilities from every class at 50 mixed and matched, with best gear.

PLD could keep hate without sacrificing the ability to attack and do whatever other hate-building abilities, and most importantly... it didn't take very much damage.

Gladiator without Sentinel or Deflection (and Deflection isn't always that great either) up takes just as much damage as any other combat except Archer. What's that all about? And that's with defender up, and buffs, etc (not Sentinel ofc).

PLD was just naturally tougher. We need more of that uniqueness badly.

EDIT: Have you seen how much stamina Provoke/Taunt/Shield Abilities take up? :(
And taunt doesn't even stick! lol


Edited, May 12th 2011 10:51am by LateReg


As I said I don't really know from first hand so I will have to bow to your knowledge as oposed to mine (non existance) my opinion was from looking at abilities from both XI and XIV.

Personally I would love to have advanced classes/jobs (I did a post about it some time ago) which would only be available to people with a certain number of classes at a certain rank which would be able to use abilities from current classes along with their unique (non transferable) abilities.

This way if you have a character with GLA30 and CON30 you can then do a quest which would enable you to open PLD. PLD would be able to use abilities already in the game but would also get it's own that could only be used by PLD and no other class. This would introduce more classes (which most players want), use classic FF names (...) and put more content into the game.
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#47 May 12 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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As far as enmity it and damage taken both those calculations need some serious retuning. As far as enmity goes something like blood rite II does the enmity of the tank hitting 3 times on mob. You can literally pull of tank by just using your self buff without having touched the mob at all. And as for damage taken and done for that matter dlvl in the calculations is so strong it basically overflows everything which is why stats do so little ATM. I pray Yoshida fixes this in 1.18.
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#48 May 12 2011 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Shield Bash is kinda bad, you compared Sentinel to Defender, when there's actually a Sentinel in XIV and it's really good, Aegis Boon isn't terribly good, and Cure is pretty awful on Melees unless you have Tier III and you're near optimal to use it, but there's no scenario where you'd really wanna cure yourself anyway.

I'm not trying to bash you, but the points you made just didn't justify your stance. PLD at the 50 cap in XI (I actually played that long ago >< lol) was better than GLA is now at 50 with abilities from every class at 50 mixed and matched, with best gear.

PLD could keep hate without sacrificing the ability to attack and do whatever other hate-building abilities, and most importantly... it didn't take very much damage.

Gladiator without Sentinel or Deflection (and Deflection isn't always that great either) up takes just as much damage as any other combat except Archer. What's that all about? And that's with defender up, and buffs, etc (not Sentinel ofc).

PLD was just naturally tougher. We need more of that uniqueness badly.

EDIT: Have you seen how much stamina Provoke/Taunt/Shield Abilities take up? :(
And taunt doesn't even stick! lol


Edited, May 12th 2011 10:51am by LateReg


As I said I don't really know from first hand so I will have to bow to your knowledge as oposed to mine (non existance) my opinion was from looking at abilities from both XI and XIV.

Personally I would love to have advanced classes/jobs (I did a post about it some time ago) which would only be available to people with a certain number of classes at a certain rank which would be able to use abilities from current classes along with their unique (non transferable) abilities.

This way if you have a character with GLA30 and CON30 you can then do a quest which would enable you to open PLD. PLD would be able to use abilities already in the game but would also get it's own that could only be used by PLD and no other class. This would introduce more classes (which most players want), use classic FF names (...) and put more content into the game.


Sounds legit, I would love something like that.
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#49 May 12 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Regardless of what product you're selling word of mouth is the most powerful advertising method in existence. If you sell something people like, they'll tell their friends and so on. It can sway the fence-sitters if their friends are playing FFXIV to join them online as well as attract new players who might not have heard about it.

In some ways, the responsibility to boost the audience of a game is partially down to the players themselves. Hands up if you've ever read or watched an internet review about a game and tried it out based on their feedback? I know I have. People want to hear from others who have actually played the game, not from the developers themselves telling you how amazing their product is.

Friends are more inclined to give you their opinion. Companies just want your custom.
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#50 May 12 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Regardless of what product you're selling word of mouth is the most powerful advertising method in existence. If you sell something people like, they'll tell their friends and so on. It can sway the fence-sitters if their friends are playing FFXIV to join them online as well as attract new players who might not have heard about it.

In some ways, the responsibility to boost the audience of a game is partially down to the players themselves. Hands up if you've ever read or watched an internet review about a game and tried it out based on their feedback? I know I have. People want to hear from others who have actually played the game, not from the developers themselves telling you how amazing their product is.

Friends are more inclined to give you their opinion. Companies just want your custom.
The responsibility lies entirely with the company.

It's the writers and programmers that create the content that is so engaging, entertaining, and enthralling that early adopters become compelled to tell others about how much fun they're having.
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#51 May 12 2011 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
Hands up if you've ever read or watched an internet review about a game and tried it out based on their feedback? I know I have. People want to hear from others who have actually played the game, not from the developers themselves telling you how amazing their product is.

Friends are more inclined to give you their opinion. Companies just want your custom.


It works both ways. If you'd read the poor reviews of FFXIV in magazines would you steer clear of it? /hand

To your last comment, would your friends value your opinion less if you over-hyped a game in order to bring in a larger audience? If you're being honest than this game is probably still below expectations and probably wouldn't warrant a review that would bring a crowd to try it out. Your feedback to the company on how to make it better would make a bigger difference.

I just wish the beta testers had been more vocal about these issues SE is still ironing out a year later.
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