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Does the responsibility lie with us?Follow

#52 May 13 2011 at 12:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Bad games get bad reviews, and news spreads. No one is saying otherwise. However, my main point wasn't that. My point was that regardless of whether it's good or bad, its reputation is spread by the players themselves and NOT the company.

FFXIV had a massive amount of bad press when it was released, with arguably good reason, so naturally the general idea is that the game is no fun to play. The responsibility for making a good game is down to the developers, obviously, but the playerbase will largely consist of people who have heard word-of-mouth reports or seen the reviews.

Theres a reason World of Warcraft became so popular so fast. It was one of the first major MMO's to hit mainstream, and therefore got a lot of press. It was (arguably) a fun game to play so it snowballed into the massive fanbase we see today. Blizzard barely needed to advertise after that. The games reputation well preceeded itself.

Edited, May 13th 2011 2:16am by Glitterhands
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#53 May 13 2011 at 12:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ultimately a ****** game gets a ****** review, a great game gets a great review, and both of these can be attributed to the developer of the game and not the players. Magazine reviews and internet reviews are more readily spread to the masses, especially when we're talking about people who spend an enormous amount of time on the internet already.

Glitterhands wrote:
The responsibility for making a good game is down to the developers, obviously, but the playerbase will largely consist of people who have heard word-of-mouth reports or seen the reviews.

Around the time of release for FFXIV there was such a buzz on the forums by rabid fanboys about some sort of miracle patch that was supposed to bring literally 90% of the playable content to the game overnight. This led many people to believe that the game was promising and would have quite a bit to do on release. A few hundred thousand pre-orders and a few weeks later, those people were sorely disappointed. Aside from that instance, all of the word of mouth, reports and reviews have been negative. That doesn't support your idea that the people playing are doing so because they heard all of these bad reviews.

Press reports and reviews don't always reflect the players views, but for the most part they do for FFXIV. Instead of the majority playing because they enjoy it(the purpose), they play because it's still 'free'. That isn't exactly going to motivate new players to shell out 40 bucks for an unfinished product.
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#54 May 13 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Hands up if you've ever read or watched an internet review about a game and tried it out based on their feedback? I know I have. People want to hear from others who have actually played the game, not from the developers themselves telling you how amazing their product is.

Friends are more inclined to give you their opinion. Companies just want your custom.


It works both ways. If you'd read the poor reviews of FFXIV in magazines would you steer clear of it? /hand

To your last comment, would your friends value your opinion less if you over-hyped a game in order to bring in a larger audience? If you're being honest than this game is probably still below expectations and probably wouldn't warrant a review that would bring a crowd to try it out. Your feedback to the company on how to make it better would make a bigger difference.

I just wish the beta testers had been more vocal about these issues SE is still ironing out a year later.


FYI, the beta testers were extremely vocal about all of these issues, and the head developer at the time Tanaka later admitted that due to the amount of bug fixing they were doing, they really didn't get to reading/working on beta feedback until after the game was released.
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#55 May 13 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Default
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Wow didn't realise how popular this thread had become, haven't checked it in a few days. Some great discussion points though, and even though the general consensus is that it is only down to SE, I have still been encouraging others to try it out while it is free, and has been improved on alot since the initial release.

So far, everyone I have shown it to has both bought it, and loved it. I believe I may be responsible for the 25% playerbase increase you all may have noticed on my realm! (25% of 200 being 50 players :D )
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#56 May 16 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the reason I hated XIII, the reason I stopped XIV, and the only way I'll come back to XIV:

13 and 14 never really felt like "Final Fantasy" titles to me; they felt like games that had a few hints to me of Final Fantasys past, but they ultimately felt like "An RPG/MMORPG that had the name "Final Fantasy" slapped on it to sell it"

Diablo 2 is fun. Tabletop Dungeons and Dragons is fun. Diablo 2 takes a few ideas from the D&D setting, even. However, if you take a Diablo 2 disk, put in in a box, and slap "Dungeons and Dragons" on it, that does not a D&D game make. And if you pick it up EXPECTING a D&D game, you're probably going to be disappointed, depending on exactly what you're looking for. You might end up realizing that despite the fact that it wasn't what you thought it was, it's still fun. You might realize that it's nowhere near what you thought and isn't fun at all.

What's what XIV (and XIII) were to me. I preordered both and eagerly anticipated both, and in both cases, I felt like what I got wasn't what I paid for, what I waited for, or what I wanted. It felt like I had bought Lost Boys and got Twilight, like I had bought 300 and got Epic Movie.

My whole point is not to say that I think XIV (or XIII) is a terrible game or that it is without hope; just that I'm clearly not alone in my feeling that most of us didn't get what we had expected, and whether you went on to like the game anyway or whether you gave up and quit depends largely on the person. I'm sure there were people who liked Twilight and Epic Movie, but I wasn't one of them.

The thing about "What makes a 'Final Fantasy' game a 'Final Fantasy' game?" is vastly open to interpretation. Ask 5 people what makes a FF game a FF game and you'll get at least 7 answers. For some people, it's clear-cut: Cid, Chocobos, Airships... for others, it's more vague: The story, the world, the characters... For me, I can't even put my finger on it. To quote the Oracle from The Matrix: "It's like being in love; no one can tell you you're in love; you just know." That's how I feel; no one can tell me what makes a game a FF title; I just know. In this case, I didn't get that feeling at all. From about a week into the closed beta, I was already feeling like I was only playing the game because I felt obligated to. I felt like I wasn't excited about the game; I was excited about hoping it would get better. I wasn't thrilled with what the game WAS, I was thrilled with the IDEA of what the game COULD BE. I remember discussing this in one thread when someone asked the question: "How can SE give you what you want if YOU don't even know what it is you want?" And it's a valid question. I really couldn't put my finger on what the game was missing; I just knew it wasn't there.

I know FFXIV has gotten a lot better. I wouldn't rule out coming back to Eorzea and giving it another go; I've never uninstalled the game from my system, although I'm sure I'd need to download updates. However, the ultimate question is "Does it have that 'IT' factor that makes it a 'Final Fantasy' title?" And based on the fact that the playerbase still seems just as torn on whether they like it or not, I don't think it has come far enough that I'm willing to come back yet.

Here's my litmus test: I'm willing to come back to FFXIV when they start charging for it. Once they are confident enough in their product that they think people will pay for it, I'm willing to come back and test them on their confidence.

Until then, if they don't think people will pay for it, if they aren't confident even advertising the game, then it must not be ready. You don't call people in for dinner when the food hasn't been cooked yet. I'll wait for SE to call me to dinner, and then I'll see if the food tastes better. I hope that it does, I really do... but I'm not willing to stand in the kitchen and wait for the noddles to boil when I could be off doing something else that I enjoy.

Semi-related sidenote: FFXI Abyssea collection went up for sale today. $20 buys you all expansions, all 3 addons, all 3 abysseas, and a **** hat. I'm not suggesting anyone give up on XIV, but if you're burned out on XIV, consider XI while you wait for XIV to improve.
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#57 May 16 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
13 and 14 never really felt like "Final Fantasy" titles to me; they felt like games that had a few hints to me of Final Fantasys past, but they ultimately felt like "An RPG/MMORPG that had the name "Final Fantasy" slapped on it to sell it".
On the flipside of that, I keep wondering why people want the same gameplay elements rehashed over and over in FF games.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
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#58 May 16 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
13 and 14 never really felt like "Final Fantasy" titles to me; they felt like games that had a few hints to me of Final Fantasys past, but they ultimately felt like "An RPG/MMORPG that had the name "Final Fantasy" slapped on it to sell it".
On the flipside of that, I keep wondering why people want the same gameplay elements rehashed over and over in FF games.


...because they enjoy them?

Just look at Dragon Quest: that team has been making games that are almost identical aside from characters / shape of world map for more than 20 years and they're the best-selling RPGs in the world, I've heard. Is that a "rehash?" Possibly, but for people who like Dragon Quest, they have been happy playing very slightly different iterations of the original, attractive formula for decades... if they want an action RPG, they probably buy an action RPG, not complain that Dragon Quest didn't turn itself into one that year.

In conclusion: I f*cking love Slimes (perhaps even a little too much - no, not like that, though) and I eagerly await Dragon Quest X - a "rehash" of a series that I liked from its inception. Because when you're in love, man, you only need one (set of gameplay elements).
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#59 May 16 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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Ah yes, I suppose so.

Don't stray too far outside the box, it's scary and unfamiliar out there!
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#60 May 16 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Ah yes, I suppose so.

Don't stray too far outside the box, it's scary and unfamiliar out there!

I guess it's kind of sad and disappointing but that's about right. New and innovative things CAN be great but they can also be a sure fire recipe for disaster.
I... I hope you weren't a huge fan of FFXIII.

Edited, May 16th 2011 9:21pm by MrTalos
#61 May 16 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
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MrTalos wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Ah yes, I suppose so.

Don't stray too far outside the box, it's scary and unfamiliar out there!
I guess it's kind of sad and disappointing but that's about right. New and innovative things CAN be great but they can also be a sure fire recipe for disaster.
I... I hope you weren't a huge fan of FFXIII.
I liked it. 12 was my favorite of the series, but 13 was good too. I guess while most people were crying about "linear gameplay!" I was busy having a lot of fun playing through the story. Yes, it diverged from the typical format of a FF game in a couple ways. That didn't stop it from being fun, it just made the game different.

I think if the game didn't have the FF name it would've been received better by the diehard FF fans (and in turn would've likely much fewer copies). I'd bet money there was a significant portion of the people who played the game that hated it because other FF fans online came out right away and ******* about it, causing them to spend a chunk of their time playing the game just thinking about how it wasn't "true" to the FF series, continually working themselves up about it.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#62 May 16 2011 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
I liked it. 12 was my favorite of the series, but 13 was good too. I guess while most people were crying about "linear gameplay!" I was busy having a lot of fun playing through the story. Yes, it diverged from the typical format of a FF game in a couple ways. That didn't stop it from being fun, it just made the game different.

I think if the game didn't have the FF name it would've been received better by the diehard FF fans (and in turn would've likely much fewer copies). I'd bet money there was a significant portion of the people who played the game that hated it because other FF fans online came out right away and ******* about it, causing them to spend a chunk of their time playing the game just thinking about how it wasn't "true" to the FF series, continually working themselves up about it.

I thought 12 was a little different from what I expect from a FF game but still kept the epic FF feel. For me, 13 just felt kind of empty by comparison. Now, I didn't even play 12 until a few months ago so I didn't have that to color my opinion of 13 (and maybe it would've improved 13 for me). I didn't really dig some parts of the story but it could well be that was the way it was supposed to be. The whole stuff on the surface was rather.. pointless to me almost as if it was an afterthought but that may be because of the direction the story took.

I think you are very likely correct about the reception minus the FF part. Adding FF put it into a box and many previous FF fans seemed to be expecting things in that box. They strayed a little bit too far outside of the FF box. I've heard more positive reviews from people who normally don't like FF games than I have from fans and that might be exactly what SE wanted.

I'm very tired so my mind is wandering more than usual so I'll sum it up before I get anymore off track. FF titles may not be the best games to go straying too far outside the box with. People tend to have certain preconceived notions with FF titles. Perhaps worse than most other games so trying unfamiliar things is a huge crap shoot. They might make something better but can they be willing to risk it?
#63 May 16 2011 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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MrTalos wrote:
They might make something better but can they be willing to risk it?
All depends what the actuaries think about it? lol

They're a business and businesses do what they do primarily to make money. It might be the case that reaching out to a broader audience is more beneficial from a business standpoint than catering to the classic crowd is. Those classic fans aren't getting any younger, and like it or not, gaming has changed a ******* in 20 years. Not just graphics, but broader concepts like "how you can tell a story".

I guess I try to remind myself that the games aren't direct sequels, it's just a name. Too easy to get caught up in that meta-analysis of the game and miss the game experience itself.

Or maybe 13 just really sucked and I for whatever strange reason had a great time playing it (actually replayed it a few months ago for fun). ¯\(º_o)/¯



In the interest of full disclosure, 2 of my least favorite FFs were 8 and 10, but I DID enjoy 7. I guess I'm kinda all over the map.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#64 May 16 2011 at 10:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
In the interest of full disclosure, 2 of my least favorite FFs were 8 and 10


Well, to be fair, it was generally more detrimental to level in FFVIII than it was to remain low, which pretty much flew in the face of one of the things many people enjoy about an RPG. And FFX... oh, where do I begin? Tidus crying about his dad... the prominence of slow-moving, underwater soccer Blitzball... those damnable shorts and yellow boots... Wakka...

Not that I don't see how some people could really like FFX; I think Wakka was close to number 1 on gaygamer's top ten character list - I can totally see that, actually, just play the first few hours of the game! "Hey, you wanna go swimmin', bro?"
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#65 May 16 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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KaneKitty wrote:
Not that I don't see how some people could really like FFX; I think Wakka was close to number 1 on gaygamer's top ten character list - I can totally see that, actually, just play the first few hours of the game! "Hey, you wanna go swimmin', bro?"
I lol'd.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#66 May 17 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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The thing about the FF series is that it has always done rehashing pretty well for the most part. The changes were generally either superficial or definitive improvements. These days improved hardware can't do much for them but push the limit of the graphics. Keeping the basic gameplay with a few embellishments and balance adjustments is all that they've ever had to do to tweak their formula into a successful one that keeps up with the times.

I could appreciate the efforts to innovate if they actually knew what they were doing with it, but it really seems like they just take a trial and error approach without a lot of forethought into how things will play out. That and their willingness to deviate from a successful formula is what is costing them in recent titles. Here we are on XIV, and not since X have they made a title remotely true to what originally made them so successful.
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#67 May 17 2011 at 4:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Kayako wrote:
No the responsibility lies with SE, you should not invite friends into the game at this stage. The game is far from complete and the tons of bots running around unchecked makes me embarrassed to admit I still play this game. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.

I would agree with this, I my self will return but in about 1 years time. It was SE's fault to release XIV before it was even ready not the player base. In fact it would of been the player base who said it is not ready.

If SE continues to work on XIV I am sure it will be a great game, some thing I still hope to move to after 11.
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#68 May 18 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Lonix wrote:
Kayako wrote:
No the responsibility lies with SE, you should not invite friends into the game at this stage. The game is far from complete and the tons of bots running around unchecked makes me embarrassed to admit I still play this game. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
I would agree with this, I my self will return but in about 1 years time. It was SE's fault to release XIV before it was even ready not the player base. In fact it would of been the player base who said it is not ready.

If SE continues to work on XIV I am sure it will be a great game, some thing I still hope to move to after 11.
I'm still not convinced that the problems were due to being "rushed" to release. They were just sloppy from day 1 and no amount of extra time would have fixed that.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
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