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dev posts and SE's honestyFollow

#1 May 10 2011 at 5:37 AM Rating: Good
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A recent dev post on the lodestone forums:
Quote:
We checked in with the dev. team and were informed that because we have not designed content centered around the need to swap party members, we do not plan on changing this.


The content of this post does not sit well with me, some of the hardest fights in FFXI were initially possible by inviting outside ppl. Although that is not the purpose of my post here but rather to say that this shows how honest the devs are being with us. We are not getting fed promises that they don't intend to keep. When they say they are going to look into it they probably mean it. It would have been very easy for the devs to come back for this question with the "we'll look into it". Rather they chose the harder stance and were just plain honest. As much as I dont' like the stance I can't get angry with honesty. I just found this interesting as I'm sure they want to give us what we want to hear.

I'm interested in how they handle connection lost as that was the biggest argument for inviting outside ppl. I expect they hold the spot and grey the persons name till they log back in. I just hope they get it right.
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#2 May 10 2011 at 5:52 AM Rating: Good
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I was absolutely furious at the Dev response to my topic and the subsequent flaming and trolling afterwords until the Devs eventually locked the topic claiming that the subject had been "answered." I really lost a lot of faith in SE yesterday.

Edited, May 10th 2011 7:53am by SolomonGrundy
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#3 May 10 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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Ever think maybe the content in this game will be hard because you CAN'T invite others?

Maybe you need to have the right class makeup to kill something?





Edited, May 10th 2011 8:24am by DoctorMog
#4 May 10 2011 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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The original point was my group were fighting Great Buffalo and our CON D/c'd. In XIV you can't invite someone while engaged (or do much else) so she couldn't get back into the party. I asked for this to be looked at and it then turned into a "using this as a party exploit" flame war and the Devs response was total sh*t.

As was pointed out somewhere in the discussion in Aion when you D/C you are still part of the party when you reconnect, this was all I wanted SE to look at, instead the answer basically was: No, you'll cheat. @#%^ off.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:33am by SolomonGrundy
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#5 May 10 2011 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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It astounds me that you can't even log off when your party is "engaged." I've had to shut the game down improperly before because of it, it's just bizarre. The restrictions when engaged (aside from classes being locked) need to go.

To prevent someone from dropping party or logging off, changing classes, and rejoining, simply lock their class until that mob is no longer claimed by that party.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:37am by Coyohma
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#6 May 10 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
The original point was my group were fighting Great Buffalo and our CON D/c'd. In XIV you can't invite someone while engaged (or do much else) so she couldn't get back into the party. I asked for this to be looked at and it then turned into a "using this as a party exploit" flame war and the Devs response was total sh*t.

As was pointed out somewhere in the discussion in Aion when you D/C you are still part of the party when you reconnect, this was all I wanted SE to look at, instead the answer basically was: No, you'll cheat. @#%^ off.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:33am by SolomonGrundy


This is a very good point and something that definitely needs to be adddressed, and corrected by SE. It is true, that in Aion, if a party member disconnects, that their spot is reserved for them, until they re-log. Also, the party leader can boot them if they don't come back and can invite another. I beleive this is true in Rift as well. It makes absolutely no sense whatsover if you are engaged with an NM, a party member disconnects and when they re-log cannot be re-invited. It makes no sense whatsoever. Fix it SE.
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#7 May 10 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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aj7418 wrote:
The content of this post does not sit well with me, some of the hardest fights in FFXI were initially possible by inviting outside ppl.
This should have never been the case. Encounters need to be balanced around whatever number of players are allowed within the party. The devs make a good point in the potential abuse, but that's partly a result of XIV's "endgame" being open world NMs that repop. Hopefully moving forward they can start to bend on at least the DC issues seeing that if you have an instanced dungeon that allows 4/8/24 people in a party/raid, you don't need to worry about bringing extra people to switch into the main party/alliance.
Quote:
I'm interested in how they handle connection lost as that was the biggest argument for inviting outside ppl. I expect they hold the spot and grey the persons name till they log back in. I just hope they get it right.
I do as well. It'd make no sense to have an entire group wipe from DCs. Player incompetence, sure. Technical difficulties, not really.
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#8 May 10 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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I think the biggest problem is that the fights in 11 at least were an "Us vs Them" sort of mentality. Rather then trying to best the mob, people tried to find way's of either using the system against itself, or finding loop-holes in the game design to defeat a monster in a way that was easier for the player. The best example of this was Tiamet. This fight was supposed to be one of (if not the hardest) NM fight in the game. By the time I had a chance to fight it (I was on Ninja, and only went because my wife had a summoner) was by having 12 BSTs send pets at it over and over again, if players pulled hate, they would log out and log back in and rejoin. This went on for about 1/2 an hour until we defeated her, and got nothing for a drop (funny part was, a group of people came to watch, and when she zerged at the end, we lost claim, and these morons attempted to steal the kill, very sad, but for once Mejin Gakure served a purpose, and reset claim back to us).

Anyways, their logic is sound, they are attempting to limit the vectors for exploiting the game. It is more practical for them to prevent party adds/drops in combat then it is to try and design a mob that's attack strategy and strength/weakness adjusts to the changing party dynamics.

This was just a bad strategy from an older game, the DC issue should be addressed, but that's a harder issue, as that was also used as an exploit. So, either way, it's a lose lose situation.
#9 May 10 2011 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I don't think SE have ever liked boss fights being trivialized by throwing infinite players at something.

Look at Kirin for example, it used to be a 1-2 hour battle, and it was epic, but as soon as people worked out the power behind Bard Soul Voice, the fight became 2-3 minutes of impatience and racing to hit the top of the DPS meter for your Kraken Club TP burn. I liked doing it this way, but never felt like it was a challenge.

I think SE want to keep fights special, and want to avoid exploitation of game mechanics by tossing whatever is alive into the fray.

Just my 2c though.
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#10 May 10 2011 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
The original point was my group were fighting Great Buffalo and our CON D/c'd. In XIV you can't invite someone while engaged (or do much else) so she couldn't get back into the party. I asked for this to be looked at and it then turned into a "using this as a party exploit" flame war and the Devs response was total sh*t.

As was pointed out somewhere in the discussion in Aion when you D/C you are still part of the party when you reconnect, this was all I wanted SE to look at, instead the answer basically was: No, you'll cheat. @#%^ off.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:33am by SolomonGrundy



Had any of your other party members used the system as intended (by leveling other classes and having heals on their bar) you might have come out of that fight alive.

Stop trying to fit into FFXI roles and this game will make sense to you.

The intent of the devs is to promote multi class leveling so that you build a "character" not a "class". The inability to invite other people while in combat is to emphasize this point. A stronger "character" that has class flexability is the ultimate goal here, moreso than having the right party makeup.

Edited, May 10th 2011 11:09am by DoctorMog
#11 May 10 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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We did win the fight @ 28 mins, but why should we plan for a healer to DC? In fact, how does this topic in any way deserve a high and mighty smart *** response from you. I merely brought up a topic on an in game problem, there is absolutely no need to be a **** about it?
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#12 May 10 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Default
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Maybe you mistook my tone. I didn't mean to sound "high and mighty" but your response sure seems that way.
#13 May 10 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Default
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****** wars aside in the previous posts, I agree a fight shouldn't be over if a player disconnects, but on the flip side, I never feel a game should be able to make reparations for players with poor connections.

If your connection sucks, don't do something that is going to ***** over other people, go get a better ISP.
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#14 May 10 2011 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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I think that after a DC they could code that a player remains in the party for 3-5 minutes couldn't they?
#15 May 10 2011 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

I should have quoted your post, looking at the timestamps you edited it after my post and before your reply and now I look the aggressor.
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#16 May 10 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry about that. Like I said, wasn't my intent =(

I find now that I am getting nearer to all DoW/DoM classes at 50, I can play any class on any other class (obviously not as well as BEING on that class..) but with that in mind, I find myself low manning things with others that have a similar build of flexibility. We live longer because we have diverse defensive skills on our bar at all times, we can deal more damage than others because of our weaponskill and buffs diversity and the list goes on. We can get on whatever class the situation needs quickly and without losing our skills from our bars.

This is how I feel the game was intended to be played.

I DO however see that some people do NOT want to level all classes, and for that, SE has done a poor job at catering to them. So with that I will agree that the system has failed many peoples expectations. The game just wasn't built to be pigeon holed into 1 class.

So to explain my previous post, I think in order to succeed in FFXIV many players will need to level many classes they do not enjoy in order to be able to do the content I foresee SE implementing.

Which to your original point, unless you have a stupidly diverse character/party, losing a person in a party is ridiculous and hurts a party configuration too much. So either players need to diversify, or SE needs to implement a feature where party members do not get dropped on DC.



Edited, May 10th 2011 11:37am by DoctorMog
#17 May 10 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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I like the honesty as well, but I would think they could come up with something to prevent cheating so that people that D/C can get back in the game. I understand this isnt much of a problem for some people with good internet. I however, have a horribly unreliable ISP, and I have no other options. There is only one high speed ISP in my location, so sh*t service is better than none. That being said I get a ridiculous amount of D/Cs. The good thing is I can usually log right back on......... but that doesnt help if I cant get back in the party easily. Its bad enough for me to infringe upon the party with my many D/Cs its worse to inconvenience them more to let me back in to the group.
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#18 May 10 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
I think that after a DC they could code that a player remains in the party for 3-5 minutes couldn't they?


That'd be a good idea, accept it takes 10-15 minutes to log back in most of the time as there server can't make up it's mind about whether you really were disconnected or not.

My whole beef with the issue is that I can't leave a party or log out because one person decided to engage a mob. Nothing like teleporting back from Behest to find out you have to sit there and wait for someone to grind out a few more SP.

SE's mentality for years now has been to burn down the haystack in order to find the needle. Granted, making it cumbersome for everyone does resolve any possible exploit issues. But is it really the best route?
#19 May 10 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here is the full quote, which is better to see than just a snippet:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/9668-Players-connot-join-the-party-while-you-are-engaged-in-combat?p=126405&viewfull=1#post126405
Quote:
As you can see by the discussion taking place, there are many facets involved in the current design of not being able to invite while engaged. We checked in with the dev. team and were informed that because we have not designed content centered around the need to swap party members, we do not plan on changing this. However, depending on the content we add in the future, there is a possibility that we may change our policy or implement specific exceptions.

There will always be "what about [xyz] instance!" where being unable to invite is a hindrance, but overall the system was designed for specific purposes. We do appreciate the comments and feedback presented, and I'll be sure to pass these along as well.


I add bold to some text I feel is important as well. They are saying NO we won't change it, but if the need arises based on content, we may.

So maybe on outside world NM's that spawn pretty dam fast and frequent we won't have it, but as someone else said in dungeons/instances we could rejoin. Let's see what happens. :)

Everyone play nice now.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:22am by Elionara
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#20 May 10 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Elionara wrote:
I add bold to some text I feel is important as well. They are saying NO we won't change it, but if the need arises based on content, we may.

So maybe on outside world NM's that spawn pretty dam fast and frequent we won't have it, but as someone else said in dungeons/instances we could rejoin. Let's see what happens. :)

Everyone play nice now.


Man, that whole context thing is a funny issue sometimes isn't it. Thanks for posting the entire bit.

As to the topic, I'm torn. I can't image how ****** I'd be if my healer DC'd or had an emergency mid way through a marathon event and there was a perfectly able but unable to assist replacement within reach.
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#21 May 10 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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As a game designer myself, I can understand SE's point of view. When you have a game that's up and running, "fixing" exploits like member swapping or logging out mid-battle is a very risky endeavor (You may completely anger your fanbase who's been using such tricks, break the game accidentally in some obscure situations you didn't cover in tests, etc.) When you make a new game, though, you tend to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Seems like the real issue here is that players who get dropped (D/C) should not be kicked out of party automatically by the system, but rather just stand still until timeout (15+m) or return of the player. (Keeping the agro level and everything -- no full agro reset by purposely disconnecting your internet, either)

This is why I say that I agree with SE's point that you shouldn't be able to drop players and invite new ones mid-battle. The D/C issues is a side-effect of an oversight, which should be classified as a bug, and fixed.


----

That being said, as someone who solos a lot in the game, when I get disconnected, I usually end up dead, fast. Funny how group efforts somehow feel they are entitled to some form of technical-death-related-immunity or compenstation, but soloists are **** out of luck. Food for thought.
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#22 May 10 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry, but this is another case of curing the disease by killing the patient. They did it with RMT (which didn't work anyway) and they're doing it here. It's ridiculous that through either poor coding or willful choice that if you get d/c'd from a party by the server or your net provider, you're just SOL. The point is to make an enjoyable game that minimizes exploits, not a ******, unplayable game that's incapable of being exploited.

Take a note, SE. We want the former, not the latter.
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#23 May 10 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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OMG - a community rep reopened the thread to post this (then locked it again):

Quote:
I know that the disconnection/re-joining party issue was a concern here, so I made sure to follow up with the development team and seek a comment. They said that they would like to do something in the event that a player is disconnected due to an error and would like to re-join the party, and are looking into adding a mechanism to address this.
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#24 May 10 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
OMG - a community rep reopened the thread to post this (then locked it again):

Quote:
I know that the disconnection/re-joining party issue was a concern here, so I made sure to follow up with the development team and seek a comment. They said that they would like to do something in the event that a player is disconnected due to an error and would like to re-join the party, and are looking into adding a mechanism to address this.


I know this game needs some work in a lot of people's eyes, but I for one love this new communication :)
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#25 May 10 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I know that the disconnection/re-joining party issue was a concern here, But due to PS2 limitations, oh wait we can't use that anymore so I made sure to follow up with the development team and seek a comment. They said that they would like to do something in the event that a player is disconnected due to an error and would like to re-join the party, and are looking into adding a mechanism to address this.


Just injecting a little humor :)
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#26 May 10 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
I know that the disconnection/re-joining party issue was a concern here, But due to PS2 limitations, oh wait we can't use that anymore so I made sure to follow up with the development team and seek a comment. They said that they would like to do something in the event that a player is disconnected due to an error and would like to re-join the party, and are looking into adding a mechanism to address this.


Just injecting a little humor :)
Don't worry, ps3 limitations are coming down the pipes sooner or later.
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#27 May 10 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
I know that the disconnection/re-joining party issue was a concern here, But due to PS2 limitations, oh wait we can't use that anymore so I made sure to follow up with the development team and seek a comment. They said that they would like to do something in the event that a player is disconnected due to an error and would like to re-join the party, and are looking into adding a mechanism to address this.


Just injecting a little humor :)
Don't worry, ps3 limitations are coming down the pipes sooner or later.



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#28 May 11 2011 at 1:10 AM Rating: Default
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I think based on the quote from the dev, they weren't completely ignoring you Solomon. I think you are over reacting a little. Clearly your topic got derailed, and the dev was more than likely addressing the people who derailed it. Also, his post clearly states he will "pass it along" and their might be some exceptions. From what he said, I don't think he knew the answer yet to be able to directly address your situation. Just keep the discussion about this flaw alive, and I think you will get the change you are looking for =-). They have alot on their plate, and this is one small flaw in the bigger picture, so don't give up on them yet.
#29 May 11 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
clarkeyboy wrote:
.... I never feel a game should be able to make reparations for players with poor connections.

If your connection sucks, don't do something that is going to ***** over other people, go get a better ISP.


First off, I beleive the connection problems are more than ISP or players with what you call poor connections. 3000+ miles of FIOS will cause packet loss and eventually a lost connection. D/C is inevietable for a lot of players under the tight restrictions imposed by SE's code, etc., and stating that ppl need better ISP's is false. (I have a very, very strong connection and still get booted at times) What needs to be fixed is the D/C issues...PERIOD.

Docent42 wrote:

...
Seems like the real issue here is that players who get dropped (D/C) should not be kicked out of party automatically by the system, but rather just stand still until timeout (15+m) or return of the player. (Keeping the agro level and everything -- no full agro reset by purposely disconnecting your internet, either)

This is why I say that I agree with SE's point that you shouldn't be able to drop players and invite new ones mid-battle. The D/C issues is a side-effect of an oversight, which should be classified as a bug, and fixed.
....


Totally agree here. Disconnections should not be an exploit, but when it can take 5-15 minutes to log back on after a D/C....please. It is obvously a bug, or either intentional. Either way, it is extremely frustrating.


Edited, May 11th 2011 8:29am by River75
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#30 May 11 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
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hexaemeron wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is another case of curing the disease by killing the patient. They did it with RMT (which didn't work anyway) and they're doing it here. It's ridiculous that through either poor coding or willful choice that if you get d/c'd from a party by the server or your net provider, you're just SOL. The point is to make an enjoyable game that minimizes exploits, not a sh*tty, unplayable game that's incapable of being exploited.

Take a note, SE. We want the former, not the latter.


Isn't SE the company that had the 18 hour boss fight, Pandemonium Warden, that players were literally falling ill from? If I recall the tactic was to rotate out party members just to keep things going. SE designed this mob, how did they expect players to defeat it?
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#31 May 11 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Default
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reptiletim wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is another case of curing the disease by killing the patient. They did it with RMT (which didn't work anyway) and they're doing it here. It's ridiculous that through either poor coding or willful choice that if you get d/c'd from a party by the server or your net provider, you're just SOL. The point is to make an enjoyable game that minimizes exploits, not a sh*tty, unplayable game that's incapable of being exploited.

Take a note, SE. We want the former, not the latter.


Isn't SE the company that had the 18 hour boss fight, Pandemonium Warden, that players were literally falling ill from? If I recall the tactic was to rotate out party members just to keep things going. SE designed this mob, how did they expect players to defeat it?


I have no clue but if people had found out the tactic to defeat it then they wouldn't have been 18 hours fighting, now would they?
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#32 May 11 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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There literally was no fast way to kill pandemonium warden. You can't blame player not knowing tactics as reason as to why the fight took ages. The fight had an endless number of stages you needed to kill to take it down.
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#33 May 11 2011 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly, I have no first hand knowledge about that mob but I think I remember some coments that went around about players taking hours to kill Absolute Virtue and SE saying that their testers were able to do the same in a lot less time.

I can only assume (maybe wrongly) that the same can apply to other mobs.
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#34 May 11 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Absolute virtue oh dear thats a new can of worms. In the video SE released on hints howto kill the mob you can see the same players use 2hrs multiple times during the kill. And even people managed to lock his 2hrs they where wiped by his "bracelet mode" He wasn't killed after the "fix" until they raised the level cap.
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#35 May 11 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why is party member switching so bad though? It still requires teamwork like any other tactic, and requires people to be there and available. Each team member still has to contribute. I guess I just don't see it as an exploit but instead as a tactic. Difference of perspective.
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#36 May 11 2011 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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If I recall the AV locking was possible by SE devs because they were in a dev environment with ZERO lag/latency which allowed them to lock the 2hrs by responding to AV's actions. AV pops BLM 2hr 1 player locks by using his 2hr immediately. The problem is anyone on FFXI could never lock 2hrs without cheating or spamming every 2hr at the same time u see AV's 2hr. This method requires 50+ bodies/subs with most all jobs so that you could lock AV quickly. The design sounds great on paper but they just didn't give the players enough time to realistically lock him down.

Using member swapping as a battle tactic is imo cheap. Yes it requires coordination and skill but it is very easy to abuse in a wide range of situations:
#1 holding NM's before you can kill. Nothing worse then watching someone hold an NM for 10-15min. till his ls members can arrive, join, and kill.
#2 hate reset, there are many hate mitigating techniques available and one that the devs don't intend to be used in longer fights is logging off/on.
#3 job switching, this one is tricky but with the flexibility and speed that we can change jobs it would be very easy to abuse. Say a certain monster goes through phases of immunity similar to the temenos apolyon type fights in FFXI. Now with job changes on the fly like we have in FFXIV you could essentially have your strongest mage DD swap jobs between phases by dropping party switch jobs and join back.

Does anyone have a serious problem with their decision / response assuming they fix the DC problem and keep someones spot when a DC happens?
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#37 May 11 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
Why is party member switching so bad though? It still requires teamwork like any other tactic, and requires people to be there and available. Each team member still has to contribute. I guess I just don't see it as an exploit but instead as a tactic. Difference of perspective.

In FFXI,
If you have 18 people in the alliance, all damage dealers, and your healers are outside of the alliance, you could bring 30 healers to support your 18 main characters, and also bring a couple of extra hands, that would be swapped assuming one of the 18 member dies. Certainly, a form of strategy, but also certainly not the way the designers expected the fight to be dealt with.

If the 18 member limit suddenly becomes "18 tanks and attackers" with an infinite amount of support, then the fight either have to be balanced around that capacity or you keep making content meant for 18, that people bring 30+ people to do, and trivialize it.

It's a slippery slope -- if you keep designing assuming the players will play "fair", then the players who use those "meta-tactics" can easily destroy your content, and ask for more. The typical designer response is to make harder fights, to keep the achievers happy; something to strive for, a more challenging fight and new goodies to get. Rapidly, however, that content becomes nearly impossible to win without the use of said tactics, which means your less hardcore fanbase can't hope to beat it, and then you have to figure out who you're making content for; that 1% of super hardcore bored without content, or the masses that are just playing the game?

It's much more "clean" to prevent any of these tactics, design the boss fight for a fixed number of people, who cannot receive outside healing, and balance the fights around those strict guidelines. BCNMs, instanced battles, WoW raids and dungeons and such do not suffer from party member swapping, because you can only bring in so many people.

Also, being the benchwarmer who only joins the fight when the "awesome" damage dealers eat the dirt, only to drop party and let them back in 5 minutes later once weakness wears off is no fun. If you're present at a boss battle, wouldn't you rather be allowed to go and fight it, instead of helping out for 5 minutes every once in a while?
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#38 May 11 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
I agree with SE trying to curb player swapping mid-combat and logging out to reset hate. I thought it was one of the cheesiest tactics in FFXI, and it didn't demonstrate any sort of player skill. It was more of exploiting a poorly made system than fighting a hard fight. Hate to say it, but they ought to take a page from WOW's raid party model here.

In WOW, if you're in a raid party, you don't get kicked out when you log off or disconnect, even if it's for a full day. As long as at least one raid member is still online and able to take the role of Raid Leader, the raid party isn't disbanded. Logging out doesn't reset hate, accumulated rage (it's like TP), buffs/debuffs still count down like normal, etc. The only thing that happens is that the character disappears and stops becoming a valid target for anything after ~20 seconds, in order to prevent any wipes because of dangerous targeted abilities by the boss.
#39 May 11 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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967 posts
reptiletim wrote:
Why is party member switching so bad though? It still requires teamwork like any other tactic, and requires people to be there and available. Each team member still has to contribute. I guess I just don't see it as an exploit but instead as a tactic. Difference of perspective.


Dropping corpses onto a boss isn't a valid strategy, and shouldn't be part of your tactics. It should be based (very much like WoW) on the limitations. In any combat scenario, you are always limited by your numbers.
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#40 May 11 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
reptiletim wrote:
Why is party member switching so bad though? It still requires teamwork like any other tactic, and requires people to be there and available. Each team member still has to contribute. I guess I just don't see it as an exploit but instead as a tactic. Difference of perspective.


If you set the party limit to X people, everything should be killable by X people. Switching people in and out is basically doing an encounter with more people in a party than is supposed to be, and sort of an exploit of game mechanics. Now FFXI actually designed their stuff around needing to switch people in and out, so its their fault i guess, but we should be getting away from these archaic boss strategies, and focus more on challenging gameplay.
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#41 May 11 2011 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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1,523 posts
Wolfums wrote:
I agree with SE trying to curb player swapping mid-combat and logging out to reset hate. I thought it was one of the cheesiest tactics in FFXI, and it didn't demonstrate any sort of player skill. It was more of exploiting a poorly made system than fighting a hard fight. Hate to say it, but they ought to take a page from WOW's raid party model here.

In WOW, if you're in a raid party, you don't get kicked out when you log off or disconnect, even if it's for a full day. As long as at least one raid member is still online and able to take the role of Raid Leader, the raid party isn't disbanded. Logging out doesn't reset hate, accumulated rage (it's like TP), buffs/debuffs still count down like normal, etc. The only thing that happens is that the character disappears and stops becoming a valid target for anything after ~20 seconds, in order to prevent any wipes because of dangerous targeted abilities by the boss.


Yus, no need to fuss about it OP, this is the way to go, this is kiss.
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#42 May 12 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
45 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
SolomonGrundy wrote:
The original point was my group were fighting Great Buffalo and our CON D/c'd. In XIV you can't invite someone while engaged (or do much else) so she couldn't get back into the party. I asked for this to be looked at and it then turned into a "using this as a party exploit" flame war and the Devs response was total sh*t.

As was pointed out somewhere in the discussion in Aion when you D/C you are still part of the party when you reconnect, this was all I wanted SE to look at, instead the answer basically was: No, you'll cheat. @#%^ off.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:33am by SolomonGrundy



Had any of your other party members used the system as intended (by leveling other classes and having heals on their bar) you might have come out of that fight alive.

Stop trying to fit into FFXI roles and this game will make sense to you.

The intent of the devs is to promote multi class leveling so that you build a "character" not a "class". The inability to invite other people while in combat is to emphasize this point. A stronger "character" that has class flexability is the ultimate goal here, moreso than having the right party makeup.

Edited, May 10th 2011 11:09am by DoctorMog



So Mog, FFXIV intended me to level every char like you to 50 so can kill a stupid buffalo and cast cure 1? How many dodo's can you kill brother? How many quests do you have to fail and redo? So they intended that?

Sure SE wanted you to have the choice to level your character in anyway you want to offer flexibility, for casual gammers to solo, but for group efforts... really Mog?

If that was SE's intent they lost alot of players with that grind.

I played FFXIV to be a healer, like most had an idea if they would tank or dps too.


Anywho... I would hate to party with you ... "Looking for player to kill Buffalo must be 50 in all aspects in order to tank, DPS, Incap, and Heal the whole group if needed when and if a player disconnects!? Any takers it's what SE intended! Yikes Bro.
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#43 May 12 2011 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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4,148 posts
hexaemeron wrote:
It's ridiculous that through either poor coding or willful choice that if you get d/c'd from a party by the server or your net provider, you're just SOL.


I've got 12,000 million yen on poor coding.

reptiletim wrote:
Isn't SE the company that had the 18 hour boss fight, Pandemonium Warden, that players were literally falling ill from? If I recall the tactic was to rotate out party members just to keep things going. SE designed this mob, how did they expect players to defeat it?


Same for most of the successful AV kills. Can we even call them successful kills if people didn't really (and still don't) know the mechanics of that encounter?








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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 May 12 2011 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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48,716 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I've got 12,000 million yen on poor coding.
What's that translate to in US dollar? Eleventy Billion Dollars?
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#45 May 12 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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4,148 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I've got 12,000 million yen on poor coding.
What's that translate to in US dollar? Eleventy Billion Dollars?

It translates to SE's adjusted projection of fiscal net income(read: loss)

StateAlchemist2 wrote:
12,000,000,000 Yen is 148,511,112.59 USD at the moment.


Enough to fund 3 more fail MMOs =/
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46Crevox, Posted: May 12 2011 at 10:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's nothing wrong with this design. This design is actually very reasonable and I'm glad that they did this, because it's stupid if you can just have an infinite amount of healers outside of the group.
#47 May 12 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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4,148 posts
Crevox wrote:
There's nothing wrong with this design. This design is actually very reasonable and I'm glad that they did this, because it's stupid if you can just have an infinite amount of healers outside of the group.

If you DC during the fight, you suffer. Don't DC. This is no different than any other MMO.

Most other MMOs don't have this 'design' built in. The only thing you 'suffer' from in WoW if you dc is not being eligible for loot from a mob that was engaged after you went offline. Anyone who is online when a mob is engaged is put on the loot list. The only thing you can really exploit is other players who are putting in the work while you're offline for whatever reason. Easily overcome by the ability to remove the player from the group or voting to kick them. Why could this not work for FFXIV?

I'm not following the logic that if you get disconnected you should be screwed over or be responsible for ******** your party over. Who is this magical service provider that guarantees you'll never disconnect? Perhaps I should invest my 12,000 million yen there instead.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 May 13 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
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82 posts
I have run 2 instances of FFXIV on 2 different machines in my house for in excess of 2 week stretches. I think I once went a whole month when M$ force rebooted for a critical Win 7 update. I use Time Warner in Albany NY. I get 25 down 10 up. Cant complain. Just saying its possible to stay connected for very long periods of time and although they could improve the rubber banding and packet loss coding in FFXIV its fairly good and when comparing FFXI to all other MMO's I'd say 11 had the best packet loss coding of any online game to date. It was **** difficult to lag/loose connection on FFXI under normal playstyles.

If they made more interactions client side, I'm pretty sure they already confirmed they were reworking this part of code from scratch, then we should get a similar experience to FFXI regarding lag and latency DC's.
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#49 May 13 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
lurex wrote:
SolomonGrundy wrote:
The original point was my group were fighting Great Buffalo and our CON D/c'd. In XIV you can't invite someone while engaged (or do much else) so she couldn't get back into the party. I asked for this to be looked at and it then turned into a "using this as a party exploit" flame war and the Devs response was total sh*t.

As was pointed out somewhere in the discussion in Aion when you D/C you are still part of the party when you reconnect, this was all I wanted SE to look at, instead the answer basically was: No, you'll cheat. @#%^ off.

Edited, May 10th 2011 9:33am by SolomonGrundy


This is a very good point and something that definitely needs to be adddressed, and corrected by SE. It is true, that in Aion, if a party member disconnects, that their spot is reserved for them, until they re-log. Also, the party leader can boot them if they don't come back and can invite another. I beleive this is true in Rift as well. It makes absolutely no sense whatsover if you are engaged with an NM, a party member disconnects and when they re-log cannot be re-invited. It makes no sense whatsoever. Fix it SE.


I know it's true for WoW too. There honestly isn't a need to switch party members in and out like XI, but there is a need to allow a D/C'd member to get back into the party. Imagine an instanced fight or something along those lines. You're screwed if someone D/C's.

Quote:
I have run 2 instances of FFXIV on 2 different machines in my house for in excess of 2 week stretches. I think I once went a whole month when M$ force rebooted for a critical Win 7 update. I use Time Warner in Albany NY. I get 25 down 10 up. Cant complain. Just saying its possible to stay connected for very long periods of time and although they could improve the rubber banding and packet loss coding in FFXIV its fairly good and when comparing FFXI to all other MMO's I'd say 11 had the best packet loss coding of any online game to date. It was **** difficult to lag/loose connection on FFXI under normal playstyles.

I've got a pretty good PC and broadband, I might D/C in WoW once a month. FFXI I used to D/C about once a day. FFXIV, I D/C'd 8 times in one day last week. I don't know what it is, but both XI and XIV are the only games I've had this problem with. I figured it was something with the latency, but I don't know. Hopefully it will eventually stop, or at least not happen quite as frequently.

Edited, May 13th 2011 1:26pm by AuroraCelestine
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