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Summoner - The first of the new classes?Follow

#52 May 23 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Before Abyssea, the top job was the infamous "Samurai bandwagon" by leaps and bounds.
Several years of parsing every single merit party I was ever in says otherwise. ****, there were very few times where I wouldn't be the top DD as DRG/WHM in a party of 5 DDs and a BRD. I can only recall one occasion where a DRG/SAM parsed higher damage than me on DRG/WHM. I actually regularly partied with a MNK/WAR who would fulltime counterstance/berserk with me on DRG/WHM as the solo healer, and I'd still be beating her DoT. If I actually tried on DRG/SAM, it was no contest.

For what it's worth, same scenario as PUP/WAR in endgame linkshell parties. Combined master/pet dmg was almost universally top DD, can only remember one situation where it wasn't.
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#53 May 23 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
Rustyshield wrote:

I highly doubt Summoners 1st summon would be Ifrit...oO


I forgot which Final Fantasy verion it was, but I want to remember your team went outside of the town and fought Ifrit. Once you beat it, that was your Summoner's first summons so to speak.


ReiThor wrote:
I think you're thinking of FFVIII. That was your first Guardian Force.


Actually, in FFVIII your first GF's were Quezacoatl and Shiva from the tutorial desk, Ifrit was third.

Ifrit has never been the first summon you get in any FF.
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#54ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 23 2011 at 9:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, well, I could outdunk a court full of midgets but it doesn't mean I'm NBA material.
#55 May 23 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I suppose its a good thing if Square give the fans a bit of nostaliga, but really i want to see something new and exciting! I want to be able to use my chocobo in battle! I want to be able to own my own airship! I want to have battlefields with other linkshells! I want a class that is different from the ordinary and overused. I think its time for the fans to jump out of their comfort zones
and dive into a pool of unexplored and mysterious waters.


Basically Square Enix, get creative! I dont want to live in an Eorzea that justs reminds me of my Vanadiel. I dont want to dream of the things that ff11 had. I want to play ff14 because it has something ff11 doesnt! A class that isnt a replica of another class, or a mutation of one. Theres so much marble to chip away at, the composition can always be alterd.
#56 May 23 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Several years of parsing every single merit party I was ever in says otherwise. ****, there were very few times where I wouldn't be the top DD as DRG/WHM in a party of 5 DDs and a BRD.


Yeah, well, I could outdunk a court full of midgets but it doesn't mean I'm NBA material.

I've heard PUPs with the exact same story as you. It's more a testament to the quality of the party you can get invited to rather than the quality of your damage.
Yeah, it was just everyone else on Ragnarok or Cerberus or Bismarck that sucked making me look ok in comparison. That makes the most sense.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#57ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 23 2011 at 10:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Simply put, I wouldn't trust a dragoon's parser to tell me who has the best damage.
#58 May 23 2011 at 10:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
bsphil wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Several years of parsing every single merit party I was ever in says otherwise. ****, there were very few times where I wouldn't be the top DD as DRG/WHM in a party of 5 DDs and a BRD.


Yeah, well, I could outdunk a court full of midgets but it doesn't mean I'm NBA material.

I've heard PUPs with the exact same story as you. It's more a testament to the quality of the party you can get invited to rather than the quality of your damage.
Yeah, it was just everyone else on Ragnarok or Cerberus or Bismarck that sucked making me look ok in comparison. That makes the most sense.
Simply put, I wouldn't trust a dragoon's parser to tell me who has the best damage.
Ahh, so my numbers can't be right because I took them, not someone else. lol

I didn't parse as much when I played as a BRD, but DRGs tended to do better overall. Of course, you're just glossing over the most important part - that any job can be great, any job can be terrible, and it is wholly dependent on the player and how much effort he or she puts into not sucking (gear swapping properly, staying on top of timers, etc).

Not like it matters anymore now with abyssea.



Edited, May 23rd 2011 11:29pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#59ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 23 2011 at 10:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, your numbers aren't right because you aren't honest with us. Dragoon merit parties don't exist because dragoons aren't top damage dealers. People aren't stupid. They jumped on the SAM bandwagon when it could deliver. Where's the dragoon bandwagon if it's so **** great? There isn't one because there's no reason for one.
#60 May 23 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
No, your numbers aren't right because you aren't honest with us. Dragoon merit parties don't exist
Oh, I was imagining all those merit parties. An even better explanation. lol

Whatever you need to convince yourself of, man. Haven't played FFXI in months now but it's still hilarious how insistent you are on what I did and did not do.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#61 May 24 2011 at 12:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForeOfMeh wrote:
No, your numbers aren't right because you aren't honest with us. Dragoon merit parties don't exist

So all those "{Healing Breath} PT only" messages in /search I've seen over the years were actually my imagination.

Also, just because I'd like to point it out, nobody actually said DRG was THE top damage dealer. The person you started flaming said it is "A" top damage dealer. "A" as in "One of the".

You may argue that DRG wasn't the top, very few will come to the job's defense. To argue DRG wasn't amongst the top is, however, delusional.

Edited, May 24th 2011 2:49am by Docent42
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#62 May 24 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Been a while since playing FFXI eh? Drg has been a top dd for uh... 3 years? 4 years?


You're delusional. The only ones who think dragoons are good at anything are other dragoons. Before Abyssea, the top job was the infamous "Samurai bandwagon" by leaps and bounds. Before the two-handed weapon boost, you had your choice of Ninja, Monk, and Warrior for burn parties. And in Abyssea, I've yet to see one Dragoon even show up, let alone be a "top DD" *snicker*. There's nothing for them to do but stay home.

Dragoon was a joke job. All the pet jobs were. Puppetmaster was a mix of a no hit master with an unpredictable, fragile puppet on a 20 minute timer. Summoner was a slow MP hog that was bottom-of-the-barrel at any role it touched. Crappy damage, support abilities, and healing compared to every other job out there, and all on a useless 1 minute timer. It was so bad, people would get mad if summoners actually summoned something. Beastmaster was all but worthless if they couldn't find something to charm nearby (made worse with depoping mobs), and jug pets didn't last long enough. Dragoon went for years in various stages of suckitude. They started with their best weaponskill nerfed to ****, and half their damage was on a 2-hour timer which died at the first gob bomb. It's been a race to get out of last spot since.

Sure SE improved all the pet jobs over the years, but it's always been from a perspective of catching up to all the other steadily improving jobs. They're always playing catch-up, never able to outdo the others at anything.

You could have some kind of pet party (expect dragoon pets aren't "smart" enough to even handle that much), but it's a far cry from what real, pet-less players can do. People want ninjas and paladins to tank, black mages to nuke, white mages to heal. Pet jobs might sneak in an oddball role now and then, but that's about it.


I have yet to see someone outparse a well geared Dark Knight. I hated playing the class myself, but no one touched them when they knew what they were doing.
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#63ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 24 2011 at 2:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There were way more Astral Burn party shouts, for that matter. Hardly makes SMN a top damage dealer. It's just a style that works in specialized circumstances.
#64 May 24 2011 at 5:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know why this threads turning into an argument about how DRG/BST/PUP/SMN played in XI because it's really not that relevant.

SE knows that sooner or later they will have to follow suite of every other MMO they are competing with by adding pet jobs so it's hardly something to argue about. They aren't really in a position at this stage to not give the people what they want.

I personally would love to see a Summoner class work it's way into XIV, but I doubt it will appear for quite some time as the basics still haven't been covered like a definitive Black Mage & White Mage, not to mention all those unopened guilds for Musketeers ect. Maybe on PS3 release SE will drop tons of new classes on us to really put in one final charge, but until then we can only dream!
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#65 May 24 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Been a while since playing FFXI eh? Drg has been a top dd for uh... 3 years? 4 years?


You're delusional. The only ones who think dragoons are good at anything are other dragoons. Before Abyssea, the top job was the infamous "Samurai bandwagon" by leaps and bounds. Before the two-handed weapon boost, you had your choice of Ninja, Monk, and Warrior for burn parties. And in Abyssea, I've yet to see one Dragoon even show up, let alone be a "top DD" *snicker*. There's nothing for them to do but stay home.

Dragoon was a joke job. All the pet jobs were. Puppetmaster was a mix of a no hit master with an unpredictable, fragile puppet on a 20 minute timer. Summoner was a slow MP hog that was bottom-of-the-barrel at any role it touched. Crappy damage, support abilities, and healing compared to every other job out there, and all on a useless 1 minute timer. It was so bad, people would get mad if summoners actually summoned something. Beastmaster was all but worthless if they couldn't find something to charm nearby (made worse with depoping mobs), and jug pets didn't last long enough. Dragoon went for years in various stages of suckitude. They started with their best weaponskill nerfed to ****, and half their damage was on a 2-hour timer which died at the first gob bomb. It's been a race to get out of last spot since.

Sure SE improved all the pet jobs over the years, but it's always been from a perspective of catching up to all the other steadily improving jobs. They're always playing catch-up, never able to outdo the others at anything.

You could have some kind of pet party (expect dragoon pets aren't "smart" enough to even handle that much), but it's a far cry from what real, pet-less players can do. People want ninjas and paladins to tank, black mages to nuke, white mages to heal. Pet jobs might sneak in an oddball role now and then, but that's about it.


Now I know you've been gone for some time.

Drg has been king since Aht Urhgan introduced squishy mobs weak to piercing. The "nerf" you speak of nerfed mnk more. Much more.

Drg stayed there with Drakesbane being one of the highest Pdif crit ws's in Abyssea thanks to Razed Ruins.
No one wants pld anymore, they want a mnk or a thf as a tank.

Pup never had to play catch up, you're just the EXACT person I'm talking about. "Fragile hard to control puppet." Mine does exactly what I say but that might be because I'm good at it. Any good pet job player is miles above any good dd-only job.

But I'm pretty sure your trolling here.
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#66 May 24 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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i was very impressed of Pup dmg actually , the "blm" pet put out some awesome spike dmg (free of enmity ) , add the pup dot (+ws) and u have lots of dmg...

no u wont see 2k Tachi: XXXX , but Puppet dmg + Pup dmg ....

Now Smn in FFXIV nees to be more like Spiritmaster from aion (w/o scaling issues >.>) , or Elementalist/necro from rift , lots of examples how to implement a pet class and no fail at it :P
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#67ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 24 2011 at 9:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The only thing pet jobs have going for them is hate-splitting where the person controlling the pet isn't necessarily taking all the hate. You can put that concept to use if you want and sometimes it's actually useful. PUPs might be able to get their pets to react with some degree of predictability, but you're not going to be on stun-duty, for example, or able to churn out trigger spells. You simply can't accomplish that despite the potential for it.
#68 May 24 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.
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#69 May 24 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Overffxi wrote:
i was very impressed of Pup dmg actually , the "blm" pet put out some awesome spike dmg (free of enmity ) , add the pup dot (+ws) and u have lots of dmg...

no u wont see 2k Tachi: XXXX , but Puppet dmg + Pup dmg ....

Now Smn in FFXIV nees to be more like Spiritmaster from aion (w/o scaling issues >.>) , or Elementalist/necro from rift , lots of examples how to implement a pet class and no fail at it :P


The only thing pet jobs have going for them is hate-splitting where the person controlling the pet isn't necessarily taking all the hate. You can put that concept to use if you want and sometimes it's actually useful. PUPs might be able to get their pets to react with some degree of predictability, but you're not going to be on stun-duty, for example, or able to churn out trigger spells. You simply can't accomplish that despite the potential for it.

My argument is that the price of this is a lower quality job compared with jobs that don't rely on pets. Pet jobs aren't the star of any MMO. To balance the pet class against pet-less classes, the pet classes are necessarily held back in capability. They can't damage as well, they can't heal as well, they can't nuke as well as the real pet-less equivalents.

The DRG wyvern in FFXI held the DRG back. FFXIV's pet-less Lancer is a far superior, self-reliant role that can be taken seriously on the field.

You may wish for pet jobs in FFXIV, and they may even show up, but they are going to be a far cry from the pet-less jobs because they'll suffer from the exact same balance issues.


actually , warlock and hunter in wow are balanced (pve wise ) , hunters use the "non-pet" talents tree however pets are there for dot / buffs /procs , same goes for locks (Imp for 30% dmg + instant soulfire proc + buff) , or Felguard spec .....90% dmg mitigation helps against aoe :P , anyway if a lock pet dies , u can resummon it (instant 1 soul shard) , hunters are sol , but pets are always alive in bosses =/ (even melee pets)

now Aion , the spiritmaster is balanced around the pet , half of it skilsl are based around the pet.

Rift necro/elementalist , are based around a pet too , and can top dps in raids ...

Eq/eq2 i played as magician /conjurer , and i was able to top some parses :P , yeah i dont have the burst of Wizzys / Warlocks but my dots , filler nuke , +pet , ect can keep going even if we need to joust some aoe (dots keep ticking )


plenty of examples already :P

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#70 May 24 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Overffxi wrote:
i was very impressed of Pup dmg actually , the "blm" pet put out some awesome spike dmg (free of enmity ) , add the pup dot (+ws) and u have lots of dmg...

no u wont see 2k Tachi: XXXX , but Puppet dmg + Pup dmg ....

Now Smn in FFXIV nees to be more like Spiritmaster from aion (w/o scaling issues >.>) , or Elementalist/necro from rift , lots of examples how to implement a pet class and no fail at it :P


The only thing pet jobs have going for them is hate-splitting where the person controlling the pet isn't necessarily taking all the hate. You can put that concept to use if you want and sometimes it's actually useful. PUPs might be able to get their pets to react with some degree of predictability, but you're not going to be on stun-duty, for example, or able to churn out trigger spells. You simply can't accomplish that despite the potential for it.

My argument is that the price of this is a lower quality job compared with jobs that don't rely on pets. Pet jobs aren't the star of any MMO. To balance the pet class against pet-less classes, the pet classes are necessarily held back in capability. They can't damage as well, they can't heal as well, they can't nuke as well as the real pet-less equivalents.

The DRG wyvern in FFXI held the DRG back. FFXIV's pet-less Lancer is a far superior, self-reliant role that can be taken seriously on the field.

You may wish for pet jobs in FFXIV, and they may even show up, but they are going to be a far cry from the pet-less jobs because they'll suffer from the exact same balance issues.


If you think a Drgs Wyvern is 50% of their dmg... you have either never played it or geared terribly. I outparse sams by myself on drg, when my wyvern outparses someone, then I laugh. It's there for utility.


You're correct in that they won't get stun duty, etc. Specialized jobs. They are almost always meant for jack-of-all jobs, or DD's. I don't see why that makes a job worse in your eyes. Nearly every job in FFXIV is a jack of all anyway.

Regardless of your pet job hatred and "stuck in 2003 lol" mentality, what is your general point here in this thread? We shouldn't have pet jobs because you don't approve?

EDIT:

In addition, until last week, my puppet was outparsing every member including me. After the nerf it was only doing 14% of total alliance dmg (18 members) while I did 22%. ****, these pet jobs suck.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:50pm by Louiscool
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#71ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 24 2011 at 12:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) EDIT:
#72 May 24 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
If you think a Drgs Wyvern is 50% of their dmg... you have either never played it or geared terribly. I outparse sams by myself on drg, when my wyvern outparses someone, then I laugh. It's there for utility.


I meant half as in half your lolteam is dead. You're gimp damage while your pet is dead for up to 20 minutes at a time. Once again, maybe you can do fine with a damage bonus against non-exploding birds that won't kill your wyvern, but 99% of FFXI isn't about collibri fights you can sleep through. Show up to a serious fight as a dragoon and people ask you to change jobs.

Louiscool wrote:

EDIT:

In addition, until last week, my puppet was outparsing every member including me. After the nerf it was only doing 14% of total alliance dmg (18 members) while I did 22%. ****, these pet jobs suck.


EDIT:

If you think a parser is meant to let you do some anecdotal bragging about how you were doing 36% of the damage in an 18 person alliance, you obviously have no idea what purpose it serves.

Edited, May 24th 2011 2:55pm by ForceOfMeh


And again I ask the question: If you aren't here to troll your *** off, what are you here for?

You can lol at parse results I guess, since all that matters to you is your own anecdotal evidence from eyeballing. I here those give accurate results.

Hope you were well fed from these posts, no more food for you troll.
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#73ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 24 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you can't understand what I've been getting at over and over, I can't really help you with your reading comprehension. I'll use small words so even you can understand:
#74 May 24 2011 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
And again I ask the question: If you aren't here to troll your *** off, what are you here for?

You can lol at parse results I guess, since all that matters to you is your own anecdotal evidence from eyeballing. I here those give accurate results.

Hope you were well fed from these posts, no more food for you troll.


All pet jobs are loljobs. They are loljobs because they must be worse than petless jobs: by design as a balancing issue. If dragoons had the option to rid themselves of their wyvern forever and add what would have been the wyvern's damage and abilities to the dragoon's total damage and abilities, don't you think dragoons would happily take that offer in a heartbeat?


That's really weird that people would WANT pet jobs when in your opinion, all pet job players are self loathing and would gladly give up the pet part of their job. But unfortunately my copy of the game didn't come with all those other jobs, it only came with bst smn drg and pup.

So I'm stuck here, forced to play these jobs and COMPLETELY unable to give them up for another "good" job.

Man you nailed me there. So if I gave up the pet part, and combined it with my dmg, would the job no longer be lol? What's the difference then? The dmg is still being done. but without drawing nearly as much hate.

In addition, if I give up the wyvern, do I get to keep the healing breath? 5 mp cure 4's are lol, I hear. So are hateless 3k Blizzard V's with infinite mp. My valoredge puppet soloing NMs by himself using atma and gear to get to -80% physical damage taken. Totally lol.

I guess if the pet job was ably to do EVERYTHING the pet could do.. yes we might give it up. Then we would be nerfed in the next update because we were bandwagoned to **** while other jobs cry about how broken they are.



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#75ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 24 2011 at 9:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ah, but that's just it. No more hate splitting. And you wouldn't be broken. This is what petless jobs call: normal.
#76 May 24 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
In addition, if I give up the wyvern, do I get to keep the healing breath? 5 mp cure 4's are lol, I hear. So are hateless 3k Blizzard V's with infinite mp. My valoredge puppet soloing NMs by himself using atma and gear to get to -80% physical damage taken. Totally lol.


Ah, but that's just it. No more hate splitting. And you wouldn't be broken. This is what petless jobs call: normal.


So if you take away the benefit of sharing hate with your pet, that puts the jobs "on par" with other jobs in your eyes.

Sounds like that hate splitting thing puts pet jobs above "normal" then. I'm just using your words here now.
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#77ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 25 2011 at 2:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Let me put it this way. Dragoons already have a 5mp Cure IV when they have low health. Thing is, the moment a high pressure situation comes up after an explosion, they reach for their wyvern to discover its barbequed carcass next to them and the likelihood there's a wait timer till they can pop out the next one. So all Mr. Dragoon can do is go, "Sorry guyz, I can't do anything for you. Halp! Somebody save me!"
#78 May 25 2011 at 2:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
In addition, if I give up the wyvern, do I get to keep the healing breath? 5 mp cure 4's are lol, I hear. So are hateless 3k Blizzard V's with infinite mp. My valoredge puppet soloing NMs by himself using atma and gear to get to -80% physical damage taken. Totally lol.


Ah, but that's just it. No more hate splitting. And you wouldn't be broken. This is what petless jobs call: normal.


ForceOfMeh - Please just be quiet.

Your clearly here trolling and trying to start arguments, and your opinion is idiotic as you just ignore Louiscool's various CORRECT points about XI and continue to ramble on about your pet-job hate. Nobody cares about your bad experiences, and we aren't in 2003 anymore. I didn't even level DRG and I know it's been an amazing DD for the last 2+ years.

Fact of the matter is, pet jobs add more variety to the game. Don't like it? Dont f***ing play it, simple as. Nobody wants to hear your b*tching. I hate people who played FFXI about 6 years ago and think they are some kind of vets..

Edited, May 25th 2011 5:00am by NoireFiction
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#79 May 25 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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KingGhidora wrote:
I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.



I've thought that this could be the case in FFXIV.

And maybe take the place of the old 2hr abilities from FFXI. You could obtain summons by beating them and "link" one to your character and use it as a 2hr ability.
#80 May 25 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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scotchio wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1305900003238872482&post=1&replyto=130635880253698293&page=2#


I've thought that this could be the case in FFXIV.

And maybe take the place of the old 2hr abilities from FFXI. You could obtain summons by beating them and "link" one to your character and use it as a 2hr ability.


I sort of like this idea, despite my love for having a tag-a-long buddy.

If they made it so all spells were cast using a summon who pops out, does some thing and goes away. It would also allow for much larger and flashier summons, as you wouldn't have to worry about pathing or annoying vision obstruction for the pet.

I see casting fireball, Ifrit comes out of a hole in the ground and drops a bomb, then goes away. Would be pretty awesome to see.
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#81 May 25 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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scotchio wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.



I've thought that this could be the case in FFXIV.

And maybe take the place of the old 2hr abilities from FFXI. You could obtain summons by beating them and "link" one to your character and use it as a 2hr ability.

i think this would be an entire step back as far as technology goes and as far as what people expect to play.
i started from FFVII onward and thought SMN was nothing but a flashy black mage....actually, the only difference being the look of the spell. up until FFX. X turned summon magic to what i thought it always should have been and i hope sincerely that we get a summon system along the lines of FF12, ****, id even settle for FFXIs system just so i can have a carby to follow me ; ;
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#82 May 26 2011 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
32 posts
i dont think it will be the first but i certainly do hope it appears one day, i miss carby so much :(

if they ever make a true whm again, im hooked, loveddddd whm with all the ga spells,reraise, pure healer is what i want :o)

theres alot to be said for ff11, as many ppl do not want a copy of it, i for one would have been tickled with an updated ff11 pretty much, the similarities to 11 is what keeps me in the game. why change what isnt broke, 11 had some wonderful things that should be implemented here combat style, real sc (not br)...the job system was brilliant. true "fantasy" zones and feeling to it

i think personally the more it would have been like 11 the better it would have done.
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#83ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 26 2011 at 9:17 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I can tell I've hit a nerve with former pet job players here. I've enough rate downs to show for it.
#84 May 26 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
I've won the argument a long time ago against people who don't want to admit it.
Hahahaha, oh wow.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#85ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 26 2011 at 1:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Still waiting, by the way.
#86 May 26 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
bsphil wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
I've won the argument a long time ago against people who don't want to admit it.
Hahahaha, oh wow.


Hey, you forgot the next sentence.

ForceOfMeh wrote:
If I'm wrong about that, then come up with the flaw in my argument rather than trying to find way to attack me personally (which is not only fallacious, it shows the weakness of your side).


Still waiting, by the way.
See the others here just don't understand the "I'm right until proven wrong" declaration. But don't worry, I understand.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#87ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 26 2011 at 2:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yet another personal attack. Is that all you've got?
#88 May 26 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Default
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245 posts
u think pet jobs cant be "balanced" , because 2 entitys (aka Player+pet) cant function properly (only for fun?)

but u are wrong....., a pet is like a "powerfull dot" that players are balanced around (maybe not in FFXI ) but in other games , pet clases are balanced around having a pet 100% of time (and devs usually put aoe inmunity on pets , eq2 , and wow bot hhave a skill to add full inmunity to aoe , to avoid geting pets killed while raiding)

Anyway the point is , pet classes are "normal" , no matter what u think ..

Example

Wizzy / Mage / X = u based the dmg around raw nukes

Summoner / necro = u base the dmg around the pet + the nukes from the player

thats the base idea

But in wow the classes are OP today nerfed next patch , today top dps , tommorrow the last...

Hunters and warlock toped recount from time to time , same goes for everyother class....


FFXI is a BAD EXAMPLE , because SE doesnt balance classes , yeah can nerf some skills , add others , but never does sweeping changes ...

remove utsemi from ninja........boom ! bye ninja tank......bye ninja sub for everything!

____________________________
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subs or 40+: Blm/whm/rdm/war/nin/thf
All avatars
WW 100+3
#89ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 26 2011 at 6:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not that I think they can't function properly, but that necessity dictates they are weaker.
#90 May 26 2011 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,949 posts
ForeOfMeh wrote:
If you take a pet class A (without counting the pet), make it just as strong as petless class B, then everyone will insist on playing pet classes because class B is weaker than class A. That's because class A has all the strength of petless class B plus a pet for added strength.

So balance necessitates making pet class A (without counting their pet) weaker than petless class B because the pet adds strength to pet class A that petless class B doesn't have. I don't think anyone would argue with this so far.

I'm a professional Game Designer, and I'll argue with you on that.

Assuming a World of Warcraft concept (Pets are nearly immune to damage, unless they are DIRECT tanking, which is only really soloing), you'd be right.

For example:
Hunter + Pet DPS has to = Rogue DPS = Mage DPS = everyone DPS class' damage

Final Fantasy XI, however, doesn't follow that model. The reality is that the pet CAN die (and according to you, does so all the time). Therefore, when you design a pet class with that in mind, the equation is either:

Model A (Pet is quite survivable)
Player with Pet > Other DPS
Player without Pet < Other DPS
or
Model B (Pet is quite volatile)
Player with Pet > Other DPS
Player without Pet = Other DPS

----
On another note, Super Jump and Angon are two very good abilities for serious battle. Jump and High Jump (Both grant 0 TP to enemies), and their Spirit Surge effects, are also non negligible. You'd be a fool to say "no" to a well-prepared and equipped Dragoon for any battle where melee aren't a liability. For many kited fights, simply engaging once and letting the wyvern chase mobs down constitute a very powerful DoT in the long run.

---
Now, to quote you here :
ForceOfMeh wrote:
I'd rather see the important jobs get released first in FFXIV to set the standard of excellence, and then they can throw in all the pet jobs they want for the amusement of such a thing.

Who in the nine blazes of all hells are you to determine which jobs are the important ones, and why the pet jobs aren't? If "story" or "lore" has anything to say about it, the "summoner class or job" would currently be one of the most "important" one and should be placed on a podium above all others, just because of what it is. Obviously, that would make many players very unhappy (And it was one of the fear of players before the job got released in XI way back), but seriously, it's the Developper's privilege and duty to set how things work in their game. They want to make frilly dancers more powerful than samurais and stronger healers than white mages? They can if they want!

If pet jobs end up being very powerful and top the damage meters in XIV, you can trust me that they'll soon become the flavour of the month, as most players give no **** about their character class beyond "being the current best job/damage dealer". Flavour of the month rerollers and all that, we've seen it in XI to certain degree with Rangers, Blackmages, Warriors, Samurais. In WoW, I'm pretty sure nearly all classes have been the current FoTM at least at some point (Except perhaps shaman? I don't remember anytime with them being clear favourites.)



tl;dr:
-Stop shooting down pet jobs

Edited, May 26th 2011 9:29pm by Docent42
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#91 May 27 2011 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
*
245 posts
hate spliting isnt that important anyway

in wow u wont get agro no matter what (in raids , 5 man pugs.....well retarded ppl is retarded)

in FFXI , a good paladin ,and u wont get it , ninjas need a bit more time , but thats why FFXI have thief :P and everyone subs /nin so huh? ....

in FFXIV , enmity is kinda buged ....so bleh

tonning down dmg because u have a pet and "hate split" is retarded , non pet classes usually have lots of "deagro" tools

example (wow yeah....)

Mage = invisibilty (full) , mirros (duration)

Rogue = feint , Vanish (full)

Hunter = feign death

Lock = Shatter

Priest = fade

ect

other than warriors every1 has a skill to deagro .....warriors is passive isnt it?

when i played rift (around 2 months ago) Elementalist (mage pet class) , was top dps.

In eq2 my conjurer toped some parsers :P




Edited, May 27th 2011 4:52am by Overffxi
____________________________
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subs or 40+: Blm/whm/rdm/war/nin/thf
All avatars
WW 100+3
#92ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 27 2011 at 8:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not going to question your credentials, but you'll forgive me if I don't blindly accept the "trust me, I'm a doctor" line.
#93 May 27 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
*
107 posts
pixelpop wrote:
scotchio wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.



I've thought that this could be the case in FFXIV.

And maybe take the place of the old 2hr abilities from FFXI. You could obtain summons by beating them and "link" one to your character and use it as a 2hr ability.

i think this would be an entire step back as far as technology goes and as far as what people expect to play.
i started from FFVII onward and thought SMN was nothing but a flashy black mage....actually, the only difference being the look of the spell. up until FFX. X turned summon magic to what i thought it always should have been and i hope sincerely that we get a summon system along the lines of FF12, ****, id even settle for FFXIs system just so i can have a carby to follow me ; ;


For me, I would like to see a pet job given to a different class than an XIV version of SMN. I could really see a pet job acting like 1 part BST one part Monster Rancher. Instead of having to capture pets every time, you could have eggs or larva or something drop from some mobs. Then you could combine(using magic)the young and raise your own monsters. They could even make it so that some of the NMs drop something to breed superior pets or even mini copies of Ifrit and all them.

*Cooks and Alchemists could even be thrown in. Have them make pet foods and treats or growth pots something like that.
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#94 May 27 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
ForceOfMeh wrote:
I could be wrong, though there's little chance you'll convince me
I can tell, that's why I'm not bothering.

Besides, I haven't played the game in months and everything about the game has changed so much in the last year that it doesn't really matter anymore how 75 cap worked.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#95ForceOfMeh, Posted: May 27 2011 at 4:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Thanks for coming out.
#96 Jun 07 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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1,609 posts
reptiletim wrote:
I for one will be very disappointed if they decide to copy FFXI with a summoner job. I would hope, if they do implement it, it would function different at least. I really don't want to see FFXIV copy FFXI so much, especially when it could make itself different but still interesting. That, and I currently play XI so I don't want to feel like I'm playing the same game on both. I didn't go back to XI just to wait for XIV to become it, I went back because I liked XI. I liked the gameplay and the storyline. FFXIV can have fun gameplay and an interesting storyline too without copying XI. Hopefully the product management team sees that.


KaneKitty wrote:
Rustyshield wrote:
SE could easily add Summoner early on...
Chocobo
Moogle

Sylph
Fairy
Carbunkle



With avatars that powerful, I'm intimidated already; I guess Summoners are adopting the "kill 'em with cuteness" saying as a class manifesto. :P



I am all for killing with cuteness! Let the sugary sweetness of death begin!

Actually this would be pretty neat!
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#97 Jun 07 2011 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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626 posts
bsphil wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Before Abyssea, the top job was the infamous "Samurai bandwagon" by leaps and bounds.
Several years of parsing every single merit party I was ever in says otherwise. ****, there were very few times where I wouldn't be the top DD as DRG/WHM in a party of 5 DDs and a BRD. I can only recall one occasion where a DRG/SAM parsed higher damage than me on DRG/WHM. I actually regularly partied with a MNK/WAR who would fulltime counterstance/berserk with me on DRG/WHM as the solo healer, and I'd still be beating her DoT. If I actually tried on DRG/SAM, it was no contest.

For what it's worth, same scenario as PUP/WAR in endgame linkshell parties. Combined master/pet dmg was almost universally top DD, can only remember one situation where it wasn't.

really? i have to also agree that for a while SAM was considered top dog as far as damage went.
on sylph, carbuncle AND ramuh, if you were not a SAM with the best polearm and G.katana then you didnt get invited (unless you were healer, brd, cor, or rdm obviously...)
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#98 Jun 07 2011 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Man you nailed me there. So if I gave up the pet part, and combined it with my dmg, would the job no longer be lol? What's the difference then? The dmg is still being done. but without drawing nearly as much hate.


1 + 1 ≠ 2?
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#99 Jun 07 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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48,708 posts
pixelpop wrote:
really? i have to also agree that for a while SAM was considered top dog as far as damage went.
For a while Warrior was thought to be nothing but a subjob. There are a lot of instances of what people considered wasn't in line with facts.
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#100 Jun 07 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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437 posts
scotchio wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
I would love to see SMN in XIV as an old school summon. Like in the earlier FFs, the summoned creature showed up, did a flashy spell and then left. It would be cool if in XIV, if your party has more than one SMN, they could combine their summoning power and the spell effect would double, or for support spells, more summoners chanting the same summon spell would add new buffs to the spell or something.



I've thought that this could be the case in FFXIV.

And maybe take the place of the old 2hr abilities from FFXI. You could obtain summons by beating them and "link" one to your character and use it as a 2hr ability.

This would be awesome!! Ifrit would be strength of fire, Titan defense of earth, etc...

I'm pickin up what you're puttin down :)

I think most people wouldn't like it, most people want to control different summons of their own. Hey SE wants to be different right? heh
#101 Jun 07 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
****
6,898 posts
pixelpop wrote:
bsphil wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
Before Abyssea, the top job was the infamous "Samurai bandwagon" by leaps and bounds.
Several years of parsing every single merit party I was ever in says otherwise. ****, there were very few times where I wouldn't be the top DD as DRG/WHM in a party of 5 DDs and a BRD. I can only recall one occasion where a DRG/SAM parsed higher damage than me on DRG/WHM. I actually regularly partied with a MNK/WAR who would fulltime counterstance/berserk with me on DRG/WHM as the solo healer, and I'd still be beating her DoT. If I actually tried on DRG/SAM, it was no contest.

For what it's worth, same scenario as PUP/WAR in endgame linkshell parties. Combined master/pet dmg was almost universally top DD, can only remember one situation where it wasn't.

really? i have to also agree that for a while SAM was considered top dog as far as damage went.
on sylph, carbuncle AND ramuh, if you were not a SAM with the best polearm and G.katana then you didnt get invited (unless you were healer, brd, cor, or rdm obviously...)


Um, I played on carbuncle and can say flat out that you are wrong on this. If you knew how to play your job well, you got invited. A ****** sam is still ****** because they either waste a lot of damage potential or get themselves killed all the time by being cocky and not using seigan to mitigate damage. Anyone who says a DRG couldn't be a top DD is fooling themselves. The true definition of a great player in FFXI was a great deal of skill mixed with excellent gear and timing. Heck, even just moderate gear but excellent skill would put near the top. I won parses on my thf at mamool camp this way against far superior geared sams, wars, mnks, etc... (and lost them too, I'm not so conceited as to claim I never lost a parse).

Now for HNM's, yes SAM had a distinct edge. Being able to self-SC, and outparse the decked out BLM's on anything you were allowed to melee was pretty broken. If I actually went all out on SAM, it was literally impossible to not pull hate, because I'd be WS every 5-10s and no amount of enmity or cure-bombing is going to outlast that... at least not back in 07-ish.
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