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Big Updates, Small Patch Notes = Future Content? No.Follow

#1 May 23 2011 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11635-If-this-is-True-SE-is-TOO-EVIL%21/page2

Turns out we've just been re-downloading from the beginning every time. So, this patch wasn't 338MB, it was really 8MB, roughly. SE might wanna work on this patching method.
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#2 May 23 2011 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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LateReg wrote:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11635-If-this-is-True-SE-is-TOO-EVIL%21/page2

Turns out we've just been re-downloading from the beginning every time. So, this patch wasn't 338MB, it was really 8MB, roughly. SE might wanna work on this patching method.



As poorly as SE has handled every. single. aspect. of this game stuff like this almost doesnt even phase me anymore.
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#3 May 23 2011 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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Don't forget that time where we had to download the same 300MB file days after a patch cause they decided to hotfix that crafting whatever bug.
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#4 May 23 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Good bit of info:

Xeno wrote:
1.15=~20mb
1.15a=~25mb
1.16=~40mb
1.16a=~90mb
1.16b=~90.1mb (see what I did there?)
1.17=~300mb
1.17a=~330mb
1.17b=~338mb


So rather than downloading the 8 MB that has changed since 1.17a that nearly everybody already has, you have to download all 338 MB of the same patch file - 330 MB of which is data you already have.

/golfclap SE
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#5 May 23 2011 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
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/golfclap
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#6 May 23 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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I don't mind the updates at the moment since I'm not being charged a monthly fee and it's easy enough to use a third party torrent client instead of SE's updater.

But this is something they will definitely need to fix before they begin charging a monthly subscription. If this type of thread is any indication, SE's update system might be the final straw for many players who will have a handful of promising mmos to choose from next year...
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#7 May 24 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry poster above me. But Torrent won't work.
#8 May 24 2011 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I was about to state that, utorrent doesn't work and if there is another option, please god I beg you to PM me it. The updater doesn't even work for me.
#9 May 24 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm not too knowledgeable in programming, but could they be rewriting significant portions of the game's coding with each update, so maybe it's easier to just issue a complete re-download with each patch? Perhaps someone with more experience could answer whether that's a viable possibility, or whether this is just poor patch execution.
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#10 May 24 2011 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
Good bit of info:

Xeno wrote:
1.15=~20mb
1.15a=~25mb
1.16=~40mb
1.16a=~90mb
1.16b=~90.1mb (see what I did there?)
1.17=~300mb
1.17a=~330mb
1.17b=~338mb


So rather than downloading the 8 MB that has changed since 1.17a that nearly everybody already has, you have to download all 338 MB of the same patch file - 330 MB of which is data you already have.

/golfclap SE

I know I'm being a **** in that thread (I'm Xeno, lol) but this is getting ridiculous. Everyone here understood this right away but even after I posted this in that thread people were like, "huh?" I think I'm going to stay away from the official forums from now on XD. This forum has a much better community and all the good info gets linked here.


Thayos wrote:
I'm not too knowledgeable in programming, but could they be rewriting significant portions of the game's coding with each update, so maybe it's easier to just issue a complete re-download with each patch? Perhaps someone with more experience could answer whether that's a viable possibility, or whether this is just poor patch execution.

If they're re-writing any of it, it's not very much. What they're doing is making it so the newcomers have an easier time downloading the patches, which I'm all for, but 338mb of patches since Yoshi took over is very insignificant to what Tanaka did. Not to mention how big of a pain in the *** it is to download 338mb on that POS patcher as opposed to 8mb. I don't think anyone would have a problem with it if you could directly download the patches.

Edited, May 24th 2011 2:30am by XenoKrates
#11 May 24 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
I'm not too knowledgeable in programming, but could they be rewriting significant portions of the game's coding with each update, so maybe it's easier to just issue a complete re-download with each patch? Perhaps someone with more experience could answer whether that's a viable possibility, or whether this is just poor patch execution.


It's only a possibility if each module of code is dependent upon the rest, like a chain where any break in the chain would unravel the entire program. If they did it that way, heaven help them because that's probably the worst coding done on the planet. In a truely modular object oriented design only the specific pieces that would be modified and the narrow scope of dependencies would need to be downloaded. If every module is dependent on each other it must be a real nightmare to test any change, major or minor. They'd effectively have to test every aspect of the game for each individual change no matter how minor. That's rediculous.

Hopefully SE didn't just go with a bunch of GOTO statements in their crystal tools engine... or maybe that's why??
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#12 May 24 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Uhm;

If you do a fresh install of FFXIV does it download all those patches separately or just the latest version?
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#13 May 24 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm not too knowledgeable in programming, but could they be rewriting significant portions of the game's coding with each update, so maybe it's easier to just issue a complete re-download with each patch? Perhaps someone with more experience could answer whether that's a viable possibility, or whether this is just poor patch execution.

This is the possibility a lot of people seem to be ignoring. A good deal of the work that needs to be done for future updates is laying groundwork in that does not currently exist. Generally, this isn't too difficult since the game already has it's structure and design laid out at this stage. In the case of FFXIV, however, the new team is going to have a different design schema than the old team, meaning a lot more foundation and superstructure is going to be needed for any sweeping changes.

More to the point, even the smallest change in a file means the file has to be re-downloaded (baring extenuating circumstances). Modularization can only go so far. If I had to guess, FFXIV is modeled as some sort of Hub system. The original plan was probably to have core game mechanics in a large, central file or - more likely - a small subset of files that would not have to be changed very often if at all, while mechanics (new and otherwise) can be plugged into the game without modifying to core system. Unfortunately, things did not go according to plan and nearly every patch is requiring them to tinker with core mechanics (causing a re-download of the containing files). Unless I am completely off base - which, admittedly, is entirely possible - the patches should drop in size once they're done tinkering with the core mechanics.

As to saving time by only downloading changes and splicing them into files, it's actually hard to say. Right now, given that they are probably only changing small parts of very large files, line by line changes would greatly improve the speed of the process. Alternatively, if the patch consisted of mostly new content (i.e. 90% of patches in any other MMO) the extra overhead of inserting, deleting, and appending data to files might be more trouble than it's worth.

reptiletim wrote:

Hopefully SE didn't just go with a bunch of GOTO statements in their crystal tools engine... or maybe that's why??

God help us if anyone is still using that archaic practice.

Edited, May 24th 2011 2:53am by Hulan
#14 May 24 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Decent
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The reason behind the big file sizes is simple.

Person A has been playing the game. They have their game at 1.17a, which was 300mb. They decide to patch to 1.17b, which is also 300mb. Most of the content downloaded is just 1.17a over again, but there's also some new updates to 1.17b.

Person B quit playing at 1.16. They decide to start playing again. Instead of downloading 1.17 and 1.17a, they go and instantly download 1.17b, which contains all the content and saves them having to download two patches. Only 300mb, rather than 900mb. Even if it's not THAT much in the whole case, it's still less patch files you have to download, and you're getting ALL the updated files and not re-downloading the same files over and over (download a file a, next patch updates file a, next patch updates file a, etc). You download the update to date version immediately and save a lot of time.

Person C is installing the game fresh. Thanks to the efforts made by SE to skip patches, they end up having to download a LOT less to patch their game, and only update to the final revisions of patches, saving much time and bandwidth. That's multiple gigabytes they are not having to download.

Are there more efficient ways to patch the game? Yeah, SE could've done a bit better, but THAT is the reasoning behind it. We, being person A, did in fact have to download a bunch of stuff we've already downloaded in the past. It sucks, but it's not "hidden content" or "laying the groundwork." It's exactly what I said above, and it's what the patch actually is. Patch 1.17b is an UPDATE to patch 1.17. You're downloading the updated version of patch 1.17, which includes the content patch 1.17 provided, with whatever updates needed.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:59am by Crevox
#15 May 24 2011 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not convinced that that is the case. The patcher goes through a relatively long preparation period before it starts downloading, which seems to be comparable to the process the FFXI patcher goes through before each patch to ensure it only downloads altered files. In this way, it neither necessary to download every patch, nor to download all historical changes each time. There is also historical precedence for torrent trackers to selectively download from a torrent. This means it would be entirely possible to set up a torrent for each patch that contains all changes (current and historical) but selectively download the ones that each computer needs. Granted, you may be correct, there is no way to be sure unless patches suddenly become much smaller; given that SE isn't likely to release the changes they are making line by line.
#16 May 24 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Crevox wrote:
The reason behind the big file sizes is simple.

Person A has been playing the game. They have their game at 1.17a, which was 300mb. They decide to patch to 1.17b, which is also 300mb. Most of the content downloaded is just 1.17a over again, but there's also some new updates to 1.17b.

Person B quit playing at 1.16. They decide to start playing again. Instead of downloading 1.17 and 1.17a, they go and instantly download 1.17b, which contains all the content and saves them having to download two patches. Only 300mb, rather than 900mb. Even if it's not THAT much in the whole case, it's still less patch files you have to download, and you're getting ALL the updated files and not re-downloading the same files over and over (download a file a, next patch updates file a, next patch updates file a, etc). You download the update to date version immediately and save a lot of time.

Person C is installing the game fresh. Thanks to the efforts made by SE to skip patches, they end up having to download a LOT less to patch their game, and only update to the final revisions of patches, saving much time and bandwidth. That's multiple gigabytes they are not having to download.

Are there more efficient ways to patch the game? Yeah, SE could've done a bit better, but THAT is the reasoning behind it. We, being person A, did in fact have to download a bunch of stuff we've already downloaded in the past. It sucks, but it's not "hidden content" or "laying the groundwork." It's exactly what I said above, and it's what the patch actually is. Patch 1.17b is an UPDATE to patch 1.17. You're downloading the updated version of patch 1.17, which includes the content patch 1.17 provided, with whatever updates needed.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:59am by Crevox


I don't understand this justification at all. If their patching system wasn't awful, person B and C wouldn't be downloading 900mb of patches. They would be downloading the 300mb full size patch (we'll say 1.17) and then the 12mb 1.17a and the 8mb 1.17b instead of "just" the 320mb 1.17b. Same amount of total download, just split into different download files that need to be replaced. The problem is that the majority of the files from the original download are not being replaced with new information, they are being replaced with identical files.

Coming from someone who uses an internet service provider that has a cap on data usage, this is going to significantly impact my interest to continue playing this game if they continue to patch this way. I have made a lot of concessions for the fact that this game is somewhat mediocre at the moment, but no matter how much I want to like this game I won't allow this terrible patching system to eat up data that should be going to my Netflix streaming.
#17 May 24 2011 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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DesmondTierney wrote:
Crevox wrote:
The reason behind the big file sizes is simple.

Person A has been playing the game. They have their game at 1.17a, which was 300mb. They decide to patch to 1.17b, which is also 300mb. Most of the content downloaded is just 1.17a over again, but there's also some new updates to 1.17b.

Person B quit playing at 1.16. They decide to start playing again. Instead of downloading 1.17 and 1.17a, they go and instantly download 1.17b, which contains all the content and saves them having to download two patches. Only 300mb, rather than 900mb. Even if it's not THAT much in the whole case, it's still less patch files you have to download, and you're getting ALL the updated files and not re-downloading the same files over and over (download a file a, next patch updates file a, next patch updates file a, etc). You download the update to date version immediately and save a lot of time.

Person C is installing the game fresh. Thanks to the efforts made by SE to skip patches, they end up having to download a LOT less to patch their game, and only update to the final revisions of patches, saving much time and bandwidth. That's multiple gigabytes they are not having to download.

Are there more efficient ways to patch the game? Yeah, SE could've done a bit better, but THAT is the reasoning behind it. We, being person A, did in fact have to download a bunch of stuff we've already downloaded in the past. It sucks, but it's not "hidden content" or "laying the groundwork." It's exactly what I said above, and it's what the patch actually is. Patch 1.17b is an UPDATE to patch 1.17. You're downloading the updated version of patch 1.17, which includes the content patch 1.17 provided, with whatever updates needed.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:59am by Crevox


I don't understand this justification at all. If their patching system wasn't awful, person B and C wouldn't be downloading 900mb of patches. They would be downloading the 300mb full size patch (we'll say 1.17) and then the 12mb 1.17a and the 8mb 1.17b instead of "just" the 320mb 1.17b. Same amount of total download, just split into different download files that need to be replaced. The problem is that the majority of the files from the original download are not being replaced with new information, they are being replaced with identical files.

Coming from someone who uses an internet service provider that has a cap on data usage, this is going to significantly impact my interest to continue playing this game if they continue to patch this way. I have made a lot of concessions for the fact that this game is somewhat mediocre at the moment, but no matter how much I want to like this game I won't allow this terrible patching system to eat up data that should be going to my Netflix streaming.


It still stops you from having to repeatedly download the same updated file, and simply covers all bases in terms of patching to ensure no errors. In total, you also have to download less individual patch files. This is the route they decided to take.

Don't argue with me though, it wasn't my patching system.
#18 May 24 2011 at 1:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Crevox wrote:
The reason behind the big file sizes is simple.

Person A has been playing the game. They have their game at 1.17a, which was 300mb. They decide to patch to 1.17b, which is also 300mb. Most of the content downloaded is just 1.17a over again, but there's also some new updates to 1.17b.

Person B quit playing at 1.16. They decide to start playing again. Instead of downloading 1.17 and 1.17a, they go and instantly download 1.17b, which contains all the content and saves them having to download two patches. Only 300mb, rather than 900mb. Even if it's not THAT much in the whole case, it's still less patch files you have to download, and you're getting ALL the updated files and not re-downloading the same files over and over (download a file a, next patch updates file a, next patch updates file a, etc). You download the update to date version immediately and save a lot of time.

Person C is installing the game fresh. Thanks to the efforts made by SE to skip patches, they end up having to download a LOT less to patch their game, and only update to the final revisions of patches, saving much time and bandwidth. That's multiple gigabytes they are not having to download.

Are there more efficient ways to patch the game? Yeah, SE could've done a bit better, but THAT is the reasoning behind it. We, being person A, did in fact have to download a bunch of stuff we've already downloaded in the past. It sucks, but it's not "hidden content" or "laying the groundwork." It's exactly what I said above, and it's what the patch actually is. Patch 1.17b is an UPDATE to patch 1.17. You're downloading the updated version of patch 1.17, which includes the content patch 1.17 provided, with whatever updates needed.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:59am by Crevox


I understand the point you are trying to put across Crevox but as I stated in the official forums thread the last fresh install I did on FFXI two years ago took about 8 hours (!) to update, you would think in all the time that has passed since the launch of FFXI there would be some advancement in how this is handled. It's like SE are still using Netscape 1 while everyone else has Firefox 4!
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#19 May 24 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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If you uninstall and do a fresh install and patch right now you will end up saving a little over a gig of space thanks to not needing to dl duplicate files.
#20 May 24 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
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The download system is completely different from XI. It's incomparable.
#21 May 24 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
Crevox wrote:
The reason behind the big file sizes is simple.

Person A has been playing the game. They have their game at 1.17a, which was 300mb. They decide to patch to 1.17b, which is also 300mb. Most of the content downloaded is just 1.17a over again, but there's also some new updates to 1.17b.

Person B quit playing at 1.16. They decide to start playing again. Instead of downloading 1.17 and 1.17a, they go and instantly download 1.17b, which contains all the content and saves them having to download two patches. Only 300mb, rather than 900mb. Even if it's not THAT much in the whole case, it's still less patch files you have to download, and you're getting ALL the updated files and not re-downloading the same files over and over (download a file a, next patch updates file a, next patch updates file a, etc). You download the update to date version immediately and save a lot of time.

Person C is installing the game fresh. Thanks to the efforts made by SE to skip patches, they end up having to download a LOT less to patch their game, and only update to the final revisions of patches, saving much time and bandwidth. That's multiple gigabytes they are not having to download.

Are there more efficient ways to patch the game? Yeah, SE could've done a bit better, but THAT is the reasoning behind it. We, being person A, did in fact have to download a bunch of stuff we've already downloaded in the past. It sucks, but it's not "hidden content" or "laying the groundwork." It's exactly what I said above, and it's what the patch actually is. Patch 1.17b is an UPDATE to patch 1.17. You're downloading the updated version of patch 1.17, which includes the content patch 1.17 provided, with whatever updates needed.

Edited, May 24th 2011 1:59am by Crevox


I understand the point you are trying to put across Crevox but as I stated in the official forums thread the last fresh install I did on FFXI two years ago took about 8 hours (!) to update, you would think in all the time that has passed since the launch of FFXI there would be some advancement in how this is handled. It's like SE are still using Netscape 1 while everyone else has Firefox 4!

The difference is the patch I downloaded tonight took 6 hours, the patches you downloaded over 6 years took you 8. This is just retarded.
#22clarkeyboy, Posted: May 24 2011 at 2:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not sure what the issue is. You aren't paying for anything, so like the Playstation Network, while it may suck, it's free and you can't expect anything more when these people are working off their own backs.
#23 May 24 2011 at 2:16 AM Rating: Decent
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wow, I forgot all about Netscape...
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#24 May 24 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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why is everyone saying utorrent doesn't work? I just used it earlier today to download the patch.
#25 May 24 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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clarkeyboy wrote:
Not sure what the issue is. You aren't paying for anything, so like the Playstation Network, while it may suck, it's free and you can't expect anything more when these people are working off their own backs.

Rumor has it that currently the developers are on a much lower wage too while they sort out the mess made by the previous ones, with the promise of better income once the game is at a standard worth charging monthly for.

It is easy to feel self entitled, but you aren't entitled to anything.... yet.


Aww crap.

/em puts on a tin hat and digs himself in.
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#26 May 24 2011 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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clarkeyboy wrote:
It is easy to feel self entitled, but you aren't entitled to anything.... yet.

The wheels fell off of the 'self-entitled' argument long ago Clarkey.

If a company leads you to believe that they are releasing a product worth paying for and they don't deliver, you don't blame yourself if they can't make it happen. Your point might be reasonable if they had stated that the game wasn't ready before taking all of those preorders and release sales, but that was not the case. Did they know that the game was not ready for release? I'm absolutely sure of it. Why didn't they feel it important to tell their players and fans the truth about it? There is no answer or good excuse for that.


I'd relate this situation to buying some VIP tickets to go see your favorite band play at a local club. You show up, wait for hours and then find out that the band has cancelled their appearance. The owner will honor your tickets if the band ever schedules another tour date there, but there are no guarantees and no refunds. You try to make the best of a bad situation and head into the club anyway. The only entertainment you find is an outdated jukebox and a pool table with a broken rack, one cue and no chalk. To top it all off, the bar in the VIP section is only serving 6oz cups of keystone light and cold corndogs. This pretty much sums up the XIV experience to me.




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#27 May 24 2011 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
Yahztee wrote:
Sorry poster above me. But Torrent won't work.


shykin wrote:
Yeah I was about to state that, utorrent doesn't work and if there is another option, please god I beg you to PM me it. The updater doesn't even work for me.



Possibly doing something wrong, torrent blocked with yout internet connection. The file is always there after an update and is a lot quicker to download.

So Yahztee, Torrent does work, but probally not for you!Smiley: eek

Shykin, is the connection yours, university, or parents? If so (University or Parents) it may be blocked
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#28 May 24 2011 at 4:55 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
clarkeyboy wrote:
It is easy to feel self entitled, but you aren't entitled to anything.... yet.

The wheels fell off of the 'self-entitled' argument long ago Clarkey.

If a company leads you to believe that they are releasing a product worth paying for and they don't deliver, you don't blame yourself if they can't make it happen. Your point might be reasonable if they had stated that the game wasn't ready before taking all of those preorders and release sales, but that was not the case. Did they know that the game was not ready for release? I'm absolutely sure of it. Why didn't they feel it important to tell their players and fans the truth about it? There is no answer or good excuse for that.


I'd relate this situation to buying some VIP tickets to go see your favorite band play at a local club. You show up, wait for hours and then find out that the band has cancelled their appearance. The owner will honor your tickets if the band ever schedules another tour date there, but there are no guarantees and no refunds. You try to make the best of a bad situation and head into the club anyway. The only entertainment you find is an outdated jukebox and a pool table with a broken rack, one cue and no chalk. To top it all off, the bar in the VIP section is only serving 6oz cups of keystone light and cold corndogs. This pretty much sums up the XIV experience to me.


I'm afraid not as a concert is not a continuous service.

This is more like a bus/train pass, you buy a monthly ticket (initial cost of the game as first month is free) and find out that the bus barelly has any seats and even those are always packed and u never actually get to seat. Because of conditions not being what they should the bus company states that whoever bough the first monthly tiket can now avail of the bus service while they revamp their fleet.

At this moment the game IS free, you play if if you want. Don't complaint for paying for the initial cost of the game as if things were to have gone as expected you would probably have spent double that ammount already (assuming you payed initial CE/SE cost).
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#29 May 24 2011 at 5:10 AM Rating: Default
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Please don't get me wrong though, the feedback you give to SE is definitely valid and worth the time, as it only helps them see where the issues lie, but currently this project generates little cash, and sits at a loss, so it isn't priority one. It has potential to be the cash cow FFXI was, but it will only come with patience and time.

We have no right to complain, but we have every right to suggest, as we are only helping ourselves with the games possible future.
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#30 May 24 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
It's only a possibility if each module of code is dependent upon the rest, like a chain where any break in the chain would unravel the entire program. If they did it that way, heaven help them because that's probably the worst coding done on the planet. ... If every module is dependent on each other it must be a real nightmare to test any change, major or minor. They'd effectively have to test every aspect of the game for each individual change no matter how minor. That's ridiculous.


I think that's how they did it in FFXI; at least, it was the reason they gave for not being able to do anything for years. "The auction house is part of the /search function, so we can't change it!" "The auto-translate is tied to part of the PS2's modem, so it must stay how it is!" "PUP cannot have better H2H skills because the servers cannot handle more than three decibels of awesome!*"

Ah, SE... >_>

*this was later addressed, when PUP received a B+ in H2H, causing server mergers.
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#31 May 24 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
If a company leads you to believe that they are releasing a product worth paying for and they don't deliver, you don't blame yourself if they can't make it happen. Your point might be reasonable if they had stated that the game wasn't ready before taking all of those preorders and release sales


There are companies that purposely make you doubt their product(s) are worth buying? I don't think so; everyone tries to sell their crap and make it look worthwhile. Some games are 8 hours long and carry the same price tag as 60-hour, open-world RPGs; some games, even single-player ones, are released with bugs and broken systems in place. Do you get a refund? No: caveat emptor. Maybe next time, wait a week until some reviews come out, I think that's what they're for.
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#32 May 24 2011 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
orz fail. no it doesn't need to be done this way. Its easy enough to make a patch for the incrimental and to keep updated an overall patch for people who's systems say "hey, I need more than just the last thing!!"
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#33 May 24 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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River75, Assassin Reject wrote:
Yahztee wrote:
Sorry poster above me. But Torrent won't work.


shykin wrote:
Yeah I was about to state that, utorrent doesn't work and if there is another option, please god I beg you to PM me it. The updater doesn't even work for me.



Possibly doing something wrong, torrent blocked with yout internet connection. The file is always there after an update and is a lot quicker to download.

So Yahztee, Torrent does work, but probally not for you!Smiley: eek

Shykin, is the connection yours, university, or parents? If so (University or Parents) it may be blocked


It stopped working late last night. I've always downloaded the patches via the default bittorrent client. This patch is the first one that wouldnt start downloading any data via that client. Never had problems before or with any torrent and im using my home PC.
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#34 May 24 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to wonder if this is a PS3 limitation. Perhaps the PS3 client cannot handle incremental updates? I admit though, that's one **** of a stretch. Otherwise, I continue to be astounded by the baffling decisions made.
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#35 May 24 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
I'm afraid not as a concert is not a continuous service.


The bar is open pretty much every day. I'd call that a continuous service.

My analogy just points out that you wanted to have a great time and instead there isn't anything fun to do. Things happen and often people are willing to overlook flaws when presented with alternatives. SE is just now starting to implement side quests and things that might make more of an impact on people staying around to play more than an hour.

Hugus wrote:
This is more like a bus/train pass, you buy a monthly ticket (initial cost of the game as first month is free) and find out that the bus barelly has any seats and even those are always packed and u never actually get to seat.

Crowded bus? You make it sound like FFXIV is overpopulated which is the opposite. If XIV is a bus or train, it has two destinations: Your mother-in-law's house and the dentist. No one wants to play this game because it's not fun. Bus rides are not entertaining anyway so your analogy fails.

KaneKitty wrote:
There are companies that purposely make you doubt their product(s) are worth buying? I don't think so; everyone tries to sell their crap and make it look worthwhile. Some games are 8 hours long and carry the same price tag as 60-hour, open-world RPGs; some games, even single-player ones, are released with bugs and broken systems in place. Do you get a refund? No: caveat emptor. Maybe next time, wait a week until some reviews come out, I think that's what they're for.

Bad business is bad. Most companies would rather their products be met with good reviews and wouldn't have released the product in the first place if it wasn't ready. At the very least, you should let people know there are problems with it.

I didn't bother to buy a box because I saw the issues with this game in alpha. Only a few thousand of us had that opportunity. The rest of the players were led to believe that issues would be fixed within a month. Here we are nearly a year later...
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#36 May 24 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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I just wish someone would've posted the servers was back up before leve cycle ended . ZAM still has them as down.
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#37 May 24 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Default
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Warmech wrote:
I just wish someone would've posted the servers was back up before leve cycle ended . ZAM still has them as down.


The servers were down for exactly as long as Square Enix said they would be. I actually think they were up 15-20 minutes earlier than that.
#38 May 24 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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DesmondTierney wrote:
The problem is that the majority of the files from the original download are not being replaced with new information, they are being replaced with identical files.


Until we know this as fact, we really can't say anything about it. None of us are writing the code ourselves. With the little programming experience I have, I know that picking up someone's code comes with a lot of work. Everyone has their own style when it comes to code and some people lean on different data structures more heavily. In a day and age when computer memory has little physical requirements many companies use however much space they want, and typically throw efficiency out the window. They use the amount of space that makes the job easier for them. Seeing as this game is still free to play, I think that at least they are making it easier on themselves when they finally get that large influx of players. They will have that single patch all ready for when people begin to play.

I can see how this would be big trouble for people with data caps set by their ISPs though. SE does need to offer alternatives, we don't all live in the U.S. and have fiber optic networks. I for one hate P2P downloading and would prefer a direct download regardless of how congested servers got on patch day.
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#39 May 24 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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LOL.

It's funny because games like WoW are to the point where you can actually play while you download most of the patch as they stream the info to your PC. SE is so far behind, it's actually funny.
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#40 May 24 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm not too knowledgeable in programming, but could they be rewriting significant portions of the game's coding with each update, so maybe it's easier to just issue a complete re-download with each patch? Perhaps someone with more experience could answer whether that's a viable possibility, or whether this is just poor patch execution.
Just poor patching. Most of the stuff we'd be redownloading are textures, sounds, models, etc. The fixes to the code are much smaller.

The simple and obvious solution would be to make each patch it's own file, i.e.: A file for 1.17b, a file for 1.17a, a file for 1.17, a file for 1.16b, etc.

It is only a very minor inconvenience to newer players or people reinstalling, as the start and stop problem of FFXI's patcher* would only be done for a few separate files rather than for thousands of individual, tiny files. It appears that SE moved to the complete opposite end of the spectrum to try and fix this problem from FFXI. I'm amazed at their ineptness.



* = The problem with FFXI's patcher is that rather than SE just knowing what files they changed in a version update, they'd compile a list of every single dat file you should have and its filesize. When you get to the FFXI menu in POL, it does a quick version check before you play. If the version is out of sync with the server, you download this compiled list of every dat file you should have (a few MB). Then, you go through the entire list, checking files one by one to see if you have them on your computer or not. All the files that you're missing or that are a different size than what they should be (if something just gets modified) are compiled into another list, and you download all of those files one by one.

The problem then becomes the TCP handshake. You need to start and stop the connection with SE for every file you want to download. If you watch your bandwidth as this happens, you'll see that the download speed is very unstable and never gets very high, often going back down to 0 for moments. This is the patcher reconnecting for the next file, even if the next file is only a few KB. This process results in terribly slow patch downloading.


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#41 May 24 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Default
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Transmigration wrote:
LOL.

It's funny because games like WoW are to the point where you can actually play while you download most of the patch as they stream the info to your PC. SE is so far behind, it's actually funny.


Only WoW does that (or Guild Wars, but it results in huge loading times). They kind of have a LOT of money and a LOT of resources to develop such technical features. It's also something that isn't really necessary, and they probably didn't bother to set aside the development resources for it. Personally, I would rather them work on other things (and they did).
#42 May 24 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Crevox wrote:
Transmigration wrote:
LOL.

It's funny because games like WoW are to the point where you can actually play while you download most of the patch as they stream the info to your PC. SE is so far behind, it's actually funny.


Only WoW does that (or Guild Wars, but it results in huge loading times). They kind of have a LOT of money and a LOT of resources to develop such technical features. It's also something that isn't really necessary, and they probably didn't bother to set aside the development resources for it. Personally, I would rather them work on other things (and they did).


Yeah well Square has been around longer than Blizzard and building MMOs longer than Blizzard so I expect the same level of quality. They should have at least had a downloader on par with Rift or Wow's old downloader. Downloading every patch, every time is just mind boggling. I think the reason no one said anything earlier is because it's too ridiculous to even consider.
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#43Crevox, Posted: May 24 2011 at 1:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why do you keep stating such blind facts?
#44 May 24 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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ff14 is on very unsure and shaky grounds as is, it doesnt need even a simple patch process to make it look worse.

asking for a decent downloader is NOT unrealistic. 5 hrs to dl a patch that size is not acceptable in todays level of technology.

i agree the game content itself needs the priority, but toss a bit of love to the patching difficulties. its almost embarassing to watch it happen compared to all other games. all i could do was laugh. Oo

it has hope but come on SE, allow torrents at the very least OR actually fix the broken patcher (at its current level of functioning...yes i consider it broke)
:(
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#45Crevox, Posted: May 24 2011 at 1:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That's simply because you aren't forwarding your ports properly. The patcher works fine, but it requires you to forward the port in your router (or connect PC directly to modem). It's the same thing for WoW, but the HTTP backend is the failsafe.
#46 May 24 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Crevox wrote:
Quote:
asking for a decent downloader is NOT unrealistic. 5 hrs to dl a patch that size is not acceptable in todays level of technology.


That's simply because you aren't forwarding your ports properly. The patcher works fine, but it requires you to forward the port in your router (or connect PC directly to modem). It's the same thing for WoW, but the HTTP backend is the failsafe.

Edited, May 24th 2011 2:31pm by Crevox


No, there are some hardware or software configurations which simply don't work well with whatever the **** SE has going on.

Period.

A patch that takes me less than 3 minutes to download with torrents shouldn't take 3 hours with the official patcher.

I've port forwarded etc. - it doesn't work. It sucks and that is all there is to it. Good for you if your set up happens to be one that works with this borked downloader but stop insulting the intelligence of people whose set up doesn't work with this GARBAGE patcher.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#47Crevox, Posted: May 24 2011 at 2:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Torrenting works because the system uses upnp to automatically forward the ports and download faster. The FFXIV downloader should result in similar speeds if the ports are properly opened. You can also use websites to test this (there are websites that check if the port is open while using the FFXIV downloader to see if it's actually open).
#48 May 24 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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I tried the port forwarding thing, didn't really change much for me. Maybe I'm not doing it right, I don't know. I feel I know slightly more about computers than the average user, and if I can't figure something out, its probably relatively hard.

Basically though, I feel that if every other game I've tried has a patching system that works pretty well on default settings, and FFXIV doesn't, well in my mind that means they clearly could have done something better. Doesn't really bother me, when they release a patch I just put it on, and when its done its done, but I'm sure if I was dying to play every patch day, I'd be pretty upset about the whole thing.
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#49 May 24 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Crevox wrote:
Quote:
I've port forwarded etc. - it doesn't work. It sucks and that is all there is to it. Good for you if your set up happens to be one that works with this borked downloader but stop insulting the intelligence of people whose set up doesn't work with this GARBAGE patcher.


Torrenting works because the system uses upnp to automatically forward the ports and download faster. The FFXIV downloader should result in similar speeds if the ports are properly opened. You can also use websites to test this (there are websites that check if the port is open while using the FFXIV downloader to see if it's actually open).

I'm not insulting the intelligence of anyone. Your failure to fix your own issue is not a reason to be insulting me. You keep blaming the patcher for everything, when it's your own fault it's not working properly. Patching through FFXIV should take 10 minutes unless your internet sucks. Maybe there is an issue that is preventing is from working, who knows, but it's ultimately your setup that is causing the issue.

Also, torrenting the patches is against FFXIV rules, and if SE founds out, they'll ban you. I'd stop proclaiming that I was breaking the rules if I was you.

Edited, May 24th 2011 3:03pm by Crevox


Are you being serious? Really? Do you think everyone that has had problems haven't done exactly what you have said x100? You say you are not insulting the intelligence of anyone... Sorry Mr. SquareEnix employee but you are. This patcher just doesn't work for some people for whatever reason... If you have any other things to say that could help users that are having trouble with this patcher to work then please share. Because i know many other people besides myself have done the things you have just mentioned correctly and it just will not work.
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#50Crevox, Posted: May 24 2011 at 3:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As I've stated in the past, there's likely some issues with certain hardware/setups that results in slow download speeds. In those cases, you are restricted to HTTP for downloading, sadly. The patcher is not perfect, which why SE has stated they are working to improve the patcher on multiple occasions.
#51 May 24 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Crevox wrote:
The patcher is not perfect, which why SE has stated they are working to improve the patcher on multiple occasions.

I'm just giving what I advice I have. That USUALLY fixes issues, but there are some things that are just... unknown or unfixable.
Quite the backpedal from this, way back when 75 minutes ago:

Crevox wrote:
it's your own fault it's not working properly.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
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