Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 4 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

SE announces new MMO in the worksFollow

#152 May 31 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
But again, the direction is on the producers, who were removed, not the programmers. I'm sure they're not the best in the world, but they're not bad. The optimization issues would've been taken care of with more development time, and the direction of the game is being taken care of now that the Producer/Director roles have shifted to Yoshi-P. If that cook is trying to use spaghetti in his burger, it's because his management team told him that was something their restaurant was going to do to be unique. In this case, the SE management wanted the cook to make a **** sandwich, and the cook polished it up as nicely as they could.

My original point was that XIV has a lot of potential, and with new direction (Yoshi-P) and a new commitment (if nothing else than in the form of regaining financial stability) from SE, XIV can still be a great game because it has a strong foundation and a good team behind it. And it will take time, but at least it's headed in the right direction. I mean, they completely ignored all user input during alpha/beta and now there's forums, dialog, producers letters and polls, so the proof is there that SE is evolving with time, it's just been a slow and painful process.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#153 May 31 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
**
343 posts
Having read the majority of this thread, and having skimmed the remainder, I feel compelled to throw in my two cents:

A very quick personal player history: I'm a long-time fan of the Final Fantasy series, who began playing with the first NA 8-bit release. I have played every game in the "main" FF series and have completed the majority of them. I've played many of the spinoffs, from Mystic Quest to Crystal Chronicles (haven't gotten around to Dirge of Cerberus, the Chocobo Dungeon/Racing series, or the FFXII DS spinoff yet...)

I started playing FFXI in earnest about seven months after NA release and I still play it a lot to this day. I too bought a nice, brand new computer to play FFXIV and preordered the CE with rush shipping.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've logged into FFXIV since the New Year. My nice new computer is primarily used for internet radio and for looking things up on the wiki while I'm playing XI.

That said, I'm excited about the potential for XIV and while I don't play it much now, I'm very much looking forward to the version updates and I'm not planning on cancelling my XIV account any time soon.

Here's what I would like to see in a new MMO:

I would like to see an MMO that fills a niche FFXI and XIV do not. Ideally, I would like to see harmony between the three games. Obviously, it's in SE's best interest to make three MMOs that are different enough the player base will want to pay to play all three. A lofty ambition, to be sure, but I don't think it's entirely impossible.

I personally feel that SE should consider a new MMO for the mobile platform: tablets & smartphones. ****, they could probably work out a deal with Sony so that the new PSP-phones could come prepackaged with the game.

Because I'm at work and don't have the time to develop a brand new intellectual property for SE, I'm going to take the easy route and use a retooled Tetra Master as an example of how this could be achieved.

A "new" Tetra Master could be ideal for the mobile platform. The matches do not take too long to play, the card-collecting aspect of the game is a proven sell, and it's the Final Fantasy franchise. This is a recipe for a good start.

Thousands of cards could be developed. I'm thinking possibly even a card for each "version" of cactaur, chocobo, malboro, (insert recurring but different creature here), etc. The most highly sought-after cards (I'm thinking character cards like Cloud and Sephiroth, for example) could be very rare.

I'm seeing something like this that has an affordable buy-in and is free to play, pay to enjoy. I imagine you would get a randomized set of "tier-I" starter cards, with others made available from "Trainer" NPCs. Better, "tier-II" cards could be paid DLC, but should be nothing too unbalanced nor too expensive (presuming a card could be claimed by your opponent should you lose a match).

Pie-in-the-sky, this game would have a nice, simple, user-friendly UI and friend's list. A functional auto-translator, and maybe a way to propose scheduled matches to people on your friends list would be nice.

Last, throw in some perks for XI and/or XIV players -- nothing game-breaking or foot-stompingly unfair, of course. For example, the winner of a Tetra Master match is also granted the ability to process one Auction House (XI) or Bazaar (XIV) transaction remotely from their mobile device.

Say I'm bored on my lunch break. I whip out my phone, see my friends list has some activity, and invite Player X to a match. I win, and afterward I'm afforded the luxury of buying or selling an item on the AH from the comfort of my own cubicle. This not only encourages people to play the new game at times when they can't or wouldn't be playing XI or XIV, it also encourages them to continue playing XI and XIV.

Achieving something like this would no doubt be a logistical nightmare vis-a-vis server coordination and crossover, and that's not my area of expertise in any way shape or form. Maybe the Tetra Master idea I propose above is technically impossible, but that doesn't mean SE couldn't achieve something similar.
____________________________
FFXI Character: Strummer; Server: Odin; 99DNC, 99PUP, 99BRD; LS: Goonies
FFXIV Character: Strummer Sleipnir; Server: Malboro; Archer 24, Goldsmithing 20; FC: Goonies
#154 May 31 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Quote:
XIV can still be a great game because it has a strong foundation and a good team behind it


I'd have to argue that FFXIV actually has a really SUCKY foundation that Yoshi-P is stripping down to its core and redesigning and massively improving upon, hence why it is taking so long, he's doing it the RIGHT way instead of the fastest, ********* way. As for the team not being responsible, that remains to be said. I mean, if all the coders are the same, it's still the same people who cut as many corners as they could to copy-paste a world map and the same bunch that built that harsh, ridiculous UI... and the same group who made market wards that STILL do not function the way they should (let me just check my retainer, oh wait, all the wards crashed and nothing sold...great).
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#155 May 31 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
BartelX wrote:
Quote:
XIV can still be a great game because it has a strong foundation and a good team behind it
I'd have to argue that FFXIV actually has a really SUCKY foundation that Yoshi-P is stripping down to its core and redesigning and massively improving upon, hence why it is taking so long, he's doing it the RIGHT way instead of the fastest, sh*ttiest way. As for the team not being responsible, that remains to be said. I mean, if all the coders are the same, it's still the same people who cut as many corners as they could to copy-paste a world map and the same bunch that built that harsh, ridiculous UI... and the same group who made market wards that STILL do not function the way they should (let me just check my retainer, oh wait, all the wards crashed and nothing sold...great).
Yeah, that's kinda the whole point of putting Yoshi-P in charge in the first place. The foundation is terrible to the core.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#156 May 31 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
See I don't know, I don't blame the programmers themselves for that. The programmers don't say, 'Hey I want the UI to work this way with 10 different confirmation boxes before you can craft something.' The artists did an amazing job on the game, and once the programmers had a little more time they cleaned up the UI substantially and performance is getting better. Almost everything that I consider wrong with the game I feel lies squarely on Tanaka and what I assume was an internal demand from SE to release the game at the designated date, regardless of the condition of the game. What Yoshi is changing is the 'how', and he is taking user feedback into account, and that's huge. Market wards crashing? Sure it could be bad programming, but I think it's more likely that it was just a god awful idea in the first place. That's not on the programmers at all. The art of the game is fantastic, animations, spell effects, incidental details, all pretty solid. Fix the terrible decisions, get the performance worked out, and it can be a solid game. And I think it will be, that's all I'm saying.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#157 May 31 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Anakte wrote:
See I don't know, I don't blame the programmers themselves for that. The programmers don't say, 'Hey I want the UI to work this way with 10 different confirmation boxes before you can craft something.' The artists did an amazing job on the game, and once the programmers had a little more time they cleaned up the UI substantially and performance is getting better. Almost everything that I consider wrong with the game I feel lies squarely on Tanaka and what I assume was an internal demand from SE to release the game at the designated date, regardless of the condition of the game. What Yoshi is changing is the 'how', and he is taking user feedback into account, and that's huge. Market wards crashing? Sure it could be bad programming, but I think it's more likely that it was just a god awful idea in the first place. That's not on the programmers at all. The art of the game is fantastic, animations, spell effects, incidental details, all pretty solid. Fix the terrible decisions, get the performance worked out, and it can be a solid game. And I think it will be, that's all I'm saying.
It's absolutely the programmer's fault. I think you're making a faulty assumption that Tanaka was looking over everyone's shoulders and forcing them to make dumb, redundant checks. The problem is that programmers tend to design bad interfaces by default. You have to consciously work to improve that. ****, I read something today about that.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#158 May 31 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,825 posts
Just wondering if there's a possibility that they could be refering to one of a few games they have on the line that will be MMO in the sense that Demons Souls was, I know they have one coming for the 3DS this year that's rumored to be quasi-multi-persistant worldy-mmo-ish... and not an actual full scale MMO.
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#159 May 31 2011 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Anakte wrote:
Market wards crashing? Sure it could be bad programming, but I think it's more likely that it was just a god awful idea in the first place. That's not on the programmers at all.


It might have been a god awful idea, but that doesn't change the fact that it was coded **** poor. If it had been done properly there wouldn't be almost daily crashes, period. The fact it's taken them 8 months and they STILL can't pinpoint it shows just exactly how poorly the team designed it. You say it was time constraints, I just don't buy that. Literally the entire game is filled with shoddy coding like that. There's a certain point where you just have to stop and say, hmmmm... the programmers SHOULD have done better along WITH Tanaka. Really, every person who worked on that project should have done better.

The final point I'd like to make is, take a look at the difference in the game in 8 months. Much of the UI is fixed, a lot of the bugs have been cleared up, and the lag has been severely reduced. That was done in less than 2/3 of a year (mostly since Yoshi-P took over), yet they developed this game for 3-5 years (depending on who you talk to). Something just doesn't quite add up there...
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#160 Jun 01 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
BartelX wrote:
The final point I'd like to make is, take a look at the difference in the game in 8 months. Much of the UI is fixed, a lot of the bugs have been cleared up, and the lag has been severely reduced. That was done in less than 2/3 of a year (mostly since Yoshi-P took over), yet they developed this game for 3-5 years (depending on who you talk to). Something just doesn't quite add up there...

Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.

To be fair, I stopped playing last Oct/Nov or so and only logged in every now and then to see if the UI or some other features had gotten any better. And then in the past week or so I've started playing again so I haven't seen the market wards crash even once, I haven't really experienced many of the other aspects of the game that might still be broken. So my viewpoint is coming from someone who saw how terrible the game was at launch, and how different it is now. Knowing that they only really replaced a few people and not the entire team, in my mind points to a solid group of people that needed time and leadership. I'm sure shortcuts were taken in a lot of aspects, but how much of that was compounded by a big date in their minds that they HAD to hit, no matter what? They don't have a specific date now, they have better leadership, and the game is coming together. I consider that a solid foundation, not necessarily the code that's in the game.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#161 Jun 01 2011 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
Oh and about the ui being 'designed like a programmer', I agree, but what company with a desire to put out a AAA mmo allows the programmers to finalize design? You have to give programmers direction, tell them what you want in the game, and make them program it. Sure you might let them come up with something, but you still have to at some point say 'yea that works, keep it like that.'

As far as a Demon's Souls type game, that would be cool, but I think based on the fact that this was a comment about cash flow they'll be looking for something that will demand monthly subs. I'm personally hoping for it to be a DQ mmo, announced this year, to be released in 2-3 years.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#162 Jun 01 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Anakte wrote:
Oh and about the ui being 'designed like a programmer', I agree, but what company with a desire to put out a AAA mmo allows the programmers to finalize design? You have to give programmers direction, tell them what you want in the game, and make them program it. Sure you might let them come up with something, but you still have to at some point say 'yea that works, keep it like that.'

As far as a Demon's Souls type game, that would be cool, but I think based on the fact that this was a comment about cash flow they'll be looking for something that will demand monthly subs. I'm personally hoping for it to be a DQ mmo, announced this year, to be released in 2-3 years.


Even a programmer knows when a UI is **** poor (I can tell you from firsthand experience there). I'd say FFXIV wasn't even designed like a programmer, it was just designed like a clunky, laggy, pile of junk initially. If a programmer doesn't realize how god awful that UI was, they really shouldn't be in the business.

Anakte wrote:
Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.


Yes, but if they could accomplish that much in 8 months, while servers were live, while trying to completely undo all that they had done in those 3-5 years and re-build it, while still dealing with trying to add the content they clearly didn't work on for 3-5 years (what exactly WERE they doing?), AND dealing with an entirely new production team and game direction... clearly it was more than just poor corporate direction that went wrong.

Good programming and bad programming are pretty black and white. Producers can't just magically say to a programmer, "hey, go produce some solid code" and all of a sudden stuff gets fixed. I think the programmers just did a ****** job because they figured it wouldn't matter. They did a sloppy job for a launch and would clean it up once the money started rolling in. I mean hey, FFXI was released in pretty rough shape and look how that went. They figured they'd just fix it down the line and everything would be fine. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the MMO market is vastly different than it was when FFXI came out, and releasing a game with no content and massive bugs is a death wish.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#163 Jun 01 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
*
215 posts
BartelX wrote:
Anakte wrote:
Oh and about the ui being 'designed like a programmer', I agree, but what company with a desire to put out a AAA mmo allows the programmers to finalize design? You have to give programmers direction, tell them what you want in the game, and make them program it. Sure you might let them come up with something, but you still have to at some point say 'yea that works, keep it like that.'

As far as a Demon's Souls type game, that would be cool, but I think based on the fact that this was a comment about cash flow they'll be looking for something that will demand monthly subs. I'm personally hoping for it to be a DQ mmo, announced this year, to be released in 2-3 years.


Even a programmer knows when a UI is **** poor (I can tell you from firsthand experience there). I'd say FFXIV wasn't even designed like a programmer, it was just designed like a clunky, laggy, pile of junk initially. If a programmer doesn't realize how god awful that UI was, they really shouldn't be in the business.

Anakte wrote:
Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.


Yes, but if they could accomplish that much in 8 months, while servers were live, while trying to completely undo all that they had done in those 3-5 years and re-build it, while still dealing with trying to add the content they clearly didn't work on for 3-5 years (what exactly WERE they doing?), AND dealing with an entirely new production team and game direction... clearly it was more than just poor corporate direction that went wrong.

Good programming and bad programming are pretty black and white. Producers can't just magically say to a programmer, "hey, go produce some solid code" and all of a sudden stuff gets fixed. I think the programmers just did a sh*tty job because they figured it wouldn't matter. They did a sloppy job for a launch and would clean it up once the money started rolling in. I mean hey, FFXI was released in pretty rough shape and look how that went. They figured they'd just fix it down the line and everything would be fine. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the MMO market is vastly different than it was when FFXI came out, and releasing a game with no content and massive bugs is a death wish.


More than likely the Programmer wasn't the decision maker on all these issues. But his manager. Who pushed a deadline the workers couldn't complete the project in time for. (Who was being pressured by his boss, and so on) SE knew they were expecting big losses already, and wanted the game out anyways. Then it turned out to bite them in the ***. How can you blame the programmers? On top of that. Given that SE is a large company, Programmers and Quality Assurance testing is probably divided into different groups. Which means the people who programmed the code, only did basic bug checking, and Quality Assurance did the real testing. If Quality Assurance was rushed (Which we know it was, look how fast they went from Public Beta to the Final Product)...then there would be no time to fix the said bugs.
#164 Jun 01 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
****
6,898 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
How can you blame the programmers?


Um, because they had 5 years to develop the game, and what we got was a shell of one with very poor programming in most aspects. Like I said, there is good and bad programming. There was a LOT of bad programming at launch in FFXIV. Certainly the game was rushed at the end, but realistically... the programmers improved/added avery little between alpha and release in terms of improvements/content. I'm not solely blaming the programmers, but I'm not so oblivious as to think they were doing a good job, because they clearly weren't.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#165 Jun 01 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
Well, I'm not saying they did a great job prior to launch, I'm saying they themselves aren't bad. Which you're basically agreeing with based on your recognition that the last 8 months have been dramatically improved even while maintaining a live game.

I looked back, and these were the changes they made besides Yoshi-P:
Assistant Director
Lead Game Designer
Lead Combat System Designer
Technical Advisor
Lead Programmer
Senior Concept Artist
Lead Artist
Lead UI Designer/Lead Web Designer

The only 'programmer' in there is the lead programmer, which I have to imagine the size of the team puts him in a supervisors role, probably tweaking things and offering guidance, but not doing a bulk of the programming. A new UI designer, like I said, someone to point the programmers in the right direction, etc etc.

And that was my original point, the game is making progress on the backs of these same people with new leadership, and that's the promise of this game turning around before another mmo is released (and hopefully teaches them to use this same degree of scrutiny on future projects.)
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#166 Jun 01 2011 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,606 posts
BartelX wrote:
Yes, but if they could accomplish that much in 8 months, while servers were live, while trying to completely undo all that they had done in those 3-5 years and re-build it, while still dealing with trying to add the content they clearly didn't work on for 3-5 years (what exactly WERE they doing?), AND dealing with an entirely new production team and game direction... clearly it was more than just poor corporate direction that went wrong.

How can anyone even ask this question? It's plain as freaking day! 4.25 years of goofing off, apparently completely unsupervised. They did like the vast majority of kids do. They are given an assignment and then wait until right before it's due to begin on it. They may be some of the most skilled programmers in the world but if they spent months doing what should have taken years it's going to be a problem. LOL
#167 Jun 01 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
Anakte wrote:
Well, I'm not saying they did a great job prior to launch, I'm saying they themselves aren't bad. Which you're basically agreeing with based on your recognition that the last 8 months have been dramatically improved even while maintaining a live game.


I don't think they are bad either. Just that they did a very sub-par job prior to release. How much of that was due to time constraints or just laziness we'll never know. Clearly the new dev team has helped steer them towards a more productive goal, so that's always good. Now we just have to hope that their follow-through matches the fervor with which they are communicating to the fan base.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#168 Jun 01 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
*
215 posts
BartelX wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
How can you blame the programmers?


Um, because they had 5 years to develop the game, and what we got was a shell of one with very poor programming in most aspects. Like I said, there is good and bad programming. There was a LOT of bad programming at launch in FFXIV. Certainly the game was rushed at the end, but realistically... the programmers improved/added avery little between alpha and release in terms of improvements/content. I'm not solely blaming the programmers, but I'm not so oblivious as to think they were doing a good job, because they clearly weren't.


Still, its not the Programmers job to deal with Bugs. That's for Quality Assurance to deal with. Either S.E. rushed this part, or they're team was too small. Even with 5 years...we don't know what happened in the inside. Maybe they rewrote or scrapped the code several times. Its also possible most of that time was spent on the graphics part of the coding (The game engine), not the actual game. Or alot of that time could not have been actual real coding, but mostly design, drawing boards ect.
I don't think coding has anything to do with any of this. This is poor management and nothing more. I refuse to believe that the entire programming team is so incompetent that they ruined the game. Perhaps the Lead Programmer was.
Really if you want to fault the programmers then their only reasonable choice of action was to quit their jobs out of protest when their boss said they want the game out now. And with todays economy, i don't see anyone doing that.
#169 Jun 01 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
BartelX wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
How can you blame the programmers?


Um, because they had 5 years to develop the game, and what we got was a shell of one with very poor programming in most aspects. Like I said, there is good and bad programming. There was a LOT of bad programming at launch in FFXIV. Certainly the game was rushed at the end, but realistically... the programmers improved/added avery little between alpha and release in terms of improvements/content. I'm not solely blaming the programmers, but I'm not so oblivious as to think they were doing a good job, because they clearly weren't.


Still, its not the Programmers job to deal with Bugs. That's for Quality Assurance to deal with. Either S.E. rushed this part, or they're team was too small. Even with 5 years...we don't know what happened in the inside. Maybe they rewrote or scrapped the code several times. Its also possible most of that time was spent on the graphics part of the coding (The game engine), not the actual game. Or alot of that time could not have been actual real coding, but mostly design, drawing boards ect.
I don't think coding has anything to do with any of this. This is poor management and nothing more. I refuse to believe that the entire programming team is so incompetent that they ruined the game. Perhaps the Lead Programmer was.
Really if you want to fault the programmers then their only reasonable choice of action was to quit their jobs out of protest when their boss said they want the game out now. And with todays economy, i don't see anyone doing that.


This is just a circular argument. You want to blame management for everything, that's fine. I don't agree with you, it's as simple as that. I'm not solely faulting the programmers, as that would just be silly. But to say they have no blame in the shape of the game at launch is equally as ridiculous. Had they done their jobs, 5 years was MORE than enough time to competently release a game, or at least something far superior to what we got at launch. The proof for that is, look what they've accomplished in 8 months since release. Why didn't they do that for the 8 months between alpha testing and open beta? If they had, the game would have released in a much more solid state. As I've said repeatedly, certainly there is some blame to be placed on the management team for not following up with their programmers/designers/UI/UX/whatever and keeping everyone on task. But it is also the programmers job todo their job efficiently and effectively, which they clearly were not.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 12:46pm by BartelX
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#170 Jun 01 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Anakte wrote:
Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.
Really? Would they announce that they hired new bottom-tier programmers to crank out the basic features that need to be added? I wouldn't imagine so, that's more of a behind-the-scenes action that the players don't need to know, it's only the big names at top that anybody would ever recognize anyway. Maybe they didn't; I don't know the answer to that.

It at least seems like they didn't. The solutions they propose tend to be pretty inelegant ones, characteristic of the same inelegant design of the alpha/beta/day 1 FFXIV. For example, the market ward search is very poorly designed and organized, lacks lots of very basic features, and lacks a usability polish that has the end user in mind rather than just programming a menu that's easy on the programmer to make. Sorting inventory is only toggled by selecting an item and enabling sorting - a bad choice as it's not intuitive that you should be looking into the details of a single item to change an option for the inventory as a whole. There is no player searching feature, a simple and powerful feature of FFXI.

The leadership may be pushing different objectives for the programmers, but the programmers themselves still seem like the same lazy, lethargic people that don't really care about perfection and usability.



Edited, Jun 1st 2011 12:28pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#171 Jun 01 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
bsphil wrote:
Anakte wrote:
Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.
Really? Would they announce that they hired new bottom-tier programmers to crank out the basic features that need to be added? I wouldn't imagine so, that's more of a behind-the-scenes action that the players don't need to know, it's only the big names at top that anybody would ever recognize anyway.

Well that's true, I suppose that could have happened and we might never hear about it. But I feel in trying to win people's trust they would have at least added something like 'and many programmers from elsewhere in SE have been brought in to stabilize the project blah blah blah.'

But hey, no matter how you look at it, the game was crap when it came out, it was crap several months after it came out, but it's now rapidly evolving. If the next version update is what most people think it will be, it will be a *very* big step forward, (and considering this thread is supposed to be about the next mmo) it should be a good sign for the future of XIV and another mmo **IF** SE really has learned their lesson.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#172 Jun 01 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Anakte wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Anakte wrote:
Well that's my point, they didn't replace the programmers, they just replaced the people in charge of them, and with better direction, new incentives, and a little more time the game is MUCH improved since launch, even if it has a long way to go.
Really? Would they announce that they hired new bottom-tier programmers to crank out the basic features that need to be added? I wouldn't imagine so, that's more of a behind-the-scenes action that the players don't need to know, it's only the big names at top that anybody would ever recognize anyway.

Well that's true, I suppose that could have happened and we might never hear about it. But I feel in trying to win people's trust they would have at least added something like 'and many programmers from elsewhere in SE have been brought in to stabilize the project blah blah blah.'

But hey, no matter how you look at it, the game was crap when it came out, it was crap several months after it came out, but it's now rapidly evolving. If the next version update is what most people think it will be, it will be a *very* big step forward, (and considering this thread is supposed to be about the next mmo) it should be a good sign for the future of XIV and another mmo **IF** SE really has learned their lesson.
At best (being very generous) it looks like they're going to reach the level of FFXI, good concepts overall but crappy code. FFXI had some good gameplay concepts but the interface and the coding behind it were pitiful, and as far as I can see, still like that today. So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#173 Jun 01 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
bsphil wrote:
At best (being very generous) it looks like they're going to reach the level of FFXI, good concepts overall but crappy code. FFXI had some good gameplay concepts but the interface and the coding behind it were pitiful, and as far as I can see, still like that today. So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.

Soooo, if you've already decided that XIV will never be what you want, and will never be good enough for you, I'm curious, why are you still here? I mean, if I truly believed that this game would never be good enough, I'd never check this forum again. And for months I didn't, I'd read the letters from Yoshi and that was it, I've only recently started delving deeper again.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#174 Jun 01 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
852 posts
Anakte wrote:
bsphil wrote:
At best (being very generous) it looks like they're going to reach the level of FFXI, good concepts overall but crappy code. FFXI had some good gameplay concepts but the interface and the coding behind it were pitiful, and as far as I can see, still like that today. So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.

Soooo, if you've already decided that XIV will never be what you want, and will never be good enough for you, I'm curious, why are you still here? I mean, if I truly believed that this game would never be good enough, I'd never check this forum again. And for months I didn't, I'd read the letters from Yoshi and that was it, I've only recently started delving deeper again.


Because people and their beliefs can be wrong. I feel the same as bsphil, but I'm open to being wrong.
____________________________
#175 Jun 01 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
Sure, I get that, I was in the same boat. I guess I'm mostly curious about his position because he seems pretty certain - it will *never* be good enough for him.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#176 Jun 01 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,535 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
BartelX wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
How can you blame the programmers?


Um, because they had 5 years to develop the game, and what we got was a shell of one with very poor programming in most aspects. Like I said, there is good and bad programming. There was a LOT of bad programming at launch in FFXIV. Certainly the game was rushed at the end, but realistically... the programmers improved/added avery little between alpha and release in terms of improvements/content. I'm not solely blaming the programmers, but I'm not so oblivious as to think they were doing a good job, because they clearly weren't.


Still, its not the Programmers job to deal with Bugs. That's for Quality Assurance to deal with.


Actually no, it IS the programmers' jobs to deal with bugs. QA's job is to FIND the bugs for the programmers to deal with.
#177 Jun 01 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
BastokFL wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
BartelX wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
How can you blame the programmers?


Um, because they had 5 years to develop the game, and what we got was a shell of one with very poor programming in most aspects. Like I said, there is good and bad programming. There was a LOT of bad programming at launch in FFXIV. Certainly the game was rushed at the end, but realistically... the programmers improved/added avery little between alpha and release in terms of improvements/content. I'm not solely blaming the programmers, but I'm not so oblivious as to think they were doing a good job, because they clearly weren't.


Still, its not the Programmers job to deal with Bugs. That's for Quality Assurance to deal with.


Actually no, it IS the programmers' jobs to deal with bugs. QA's job is to FIND the bugs for the programmers to deal with.


Yep, very true. Heck, most of the QA at my job now don't even know HOW to code. They just know how to test things and in combination with the UX team, they know how to suggest changes that a consumer/customer will want to use and be able to use easily and successfully... a lesson I really wish SE would learn. =/

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 3:56pm by BartelX
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#178 Jun 01 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
626 posts
Quote:
Senior Concept Artist
Lead Artist
Lead UI Designer/Lead Web Designer

im personally happy about this XD hopefully the new team comes up with some cooler things to look at, everything is so boring and subdued right now.
that GRIN video looked lame but that desert puts our thanalan to shame.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 4:41pm by pixelpop
____________________________

#179 Jun 01 2011 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
931 posts
im happy to hear that square enix is making a new mmo. ff14 stinks. if they can make it better, fine, but i wouldnt mind something completely different but they sort of goofed with 14.

wonder if theyll do a mmorpg spinoff from one of their other titles, non final fantasy.
____________________________
MUTED
#180 Jun 01 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Anakte wrote:
bsphil wrote:
At best (being very generous) it looks like they're going to reach the level of FFXI, good concepts overall but crappy code. FFXI had some good gameplay concepts but the interface and the coding behind it were pitiful, and as far as I can see, still like that today. So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.
Soooo, if you've already decided that XIV will never be what you want, and will never be good enough for you, I'm curious, why are you still here? I mean, if I truly believed that this game would never be good enough, I'd never check this forum again. And for months I didn't, I'd read the letters from Yoshi and that was it, I've only recently started delving deeper again.
I only play about once every month or so, after a new patch comes out. Kudos on determining my opinion for me, though.



Edited, Jun 1st 2011 3:56pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#181 Jun 01 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
**
362 posts
bsphil wrote:
I only play about once every month or so, after a new patch comes out. Kudos on determining my opinion for me, though.



Edited, Jun 1st 2011 3:56pm by bsphil

Quote:
So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.

Your words man, I didn't determine anything for you, I was just trying to figure out where your stance was.
____________________________
Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#182 Jun 01 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Anakte wrote:
bsphil wrote:
I only play about once every month or so, after a new patch comes out. Kudos on determining my opinion for me, though.
Quote:
So even if they get all the way up to where FFXI is now, it'll still not be enough, at least for me.
Your words man, I didn't determine anything for you, I was just trying to figure out where your stance was.
Pessimistic that the game will ever truly recover but still morbidly curious as to how this is going to unfold.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#183 Jun 01 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
*
75 posts
BartelX wrote:


This is just a circular argument. You want to blame management for everything, that's fine. I don't agree with you, it's as simple as that.
Edited, Jun 1st 2011 12:46pm by BartelX


It's absurd to blame programmers who do not set deadlines, who are horribly underpaid, and who are not given the resources and artistic vision and direction necessary to make a quality game. It's as simple as that.
#184 Jun 01 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
*
75 posts
bsphil wrote:


The leadership may be pushing different objectives for the programmers, but the programmers themselves still seem like the same lazy, lethargic people that don't really care about perfection and usability.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 12:28pm by bsphil


OK, how do you have insider knowledge of what objectives the leadership is pushing, what the development budget is, who the individual programmers are, and how many programmers are currently working on the project? If you don't have concrete facts, you're pulling **** out of your *** and taking a dump on people for which you have absolutely no justification. If you do have these concrete facts, please share them with us. SE has been bleeding money because of poor management decisions; the buck always stops with management, not the worker drones.
#185 Jun 01 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
zuogehaomeng wrote:
Still, its not the Programmers job to deal with Bugs. That's for Quality Assurance to deal with.
Ahahahaha, missed this gem.

HardHotThrobbingAetherite wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The leadership may be pushing different objectives for the programmers, but the programmers themselves still seem like the same lazy, lethargic people that don't really care about perfection and usability.
OK, how do you have insider knowledge of what objectives the leadership is pushing, what the development budget is, who the individual programmers are, and how many programmers are currently working on the project? If you don't have concrete facts, you're pulling sh*t out of your *** and taking a dump on people for which you have absolutely no justification. If you do have these concrete facts, please share them with us. SE has been bleeding money because of poor management decisions; the buck always stops with management, not the worker drones.
Because they make posts about it all the time, you dunce. Also, I never made any definitive claims, I just said that's what they may be doing.



Edited, Jun 1st 2011 9:02pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#186HardHotThrobbingAetherite, Posted: Jun 01 2011 at 8:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Never made any definitive claims? Sounds like backpedaling to me. Where are the posts that are supposedly made "all the time" that give hard figures about development budgets, size of the development team, and concrete particular instructions that are given to the programmers?
#187 Jun 01 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
HardHotThrobbingAetherite wrote:
Never made any definitive claims? Sounds like backpedaling to me. Where are the posts that are supposedly made "all the time" that give hard figures about development budgets, size of the development team, and concrete particular instructions that are given to the programmers?

EDIT: And I'm not talking about the Yoshi-P branding/Letter from the Producer ad campaigns and PR stunts.
Backpedaling, re-quoting myself... whatever, right? I'm not the one that gave hard figures about budgets, dev team size, etc. Whine about that to the correct person.

I'm under the assumption that what gets printed in the letter from the producer is what he's been telling people to program. Is that faulty?



Edited, Jun 1st 2011 9:35pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#188 Jun 01 2011 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
HardHotThrobbingAetherite wrote:
BartelX wrote:


This is just a circular argument. You want to blame management for everything, that's fine. I don't agree with you, it's as simple as that.
Edited, Jun 1st 2011 12:46pm by BartelX


It's absurd to blame programmers who do not set deadlines, who are horribly underpaid, and who are not given the resources and artistic vision and direction necessary to make a quality game. It's as simple as that.


So it's absurd to blame programmer's for not doing their job? I'm sorry, but if a company like SE can't provide the resources and artistic vision, I don't see who can. I think you are being blinded by the belief that programmers are never at fault when something goes wrong in a project. The sad fact is, often times it's the programmer's that start a team on that slippery slope into poor design, because it's the programmer's that build the foundation. If you can honestly tell me with a straight face you think the programmer's built a solid foundation for FFXIV, I'll tell you to seek some professional help. The truth of the matter is, regardless of the direction they were given, programmers still have a duty to make code that isn't a steaming pile... they did NOT do that by the time FFXIV launched, and no amount of arguments of "they didn't have enough time!" will prove otherwise.

Edit: Just to reiterate for like the billionth time (I'll even bold and underline it for emphasis) I'm not putting the blame solely on the programmers. EVERYONE is at fault for the way FFXIV turned out at launch. I'm simply stating that the programmers are just as much at fault as anyone else for doing a lackluster job.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 11:33pm by BartelX
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
1 2 3 4 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (17)