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No Need to Level New Jobs???Follow

#52 May 31 2011 at 12:19 AM Rating: Good
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I read the OP, and didn't bother reading the rest of the thread. So take this comment for what it's worth:

This is quite possibly the single stupidest thing I've ever read. It defies all logic, gaming or otherwise.

There's a difference between "the grind" and having to work for status in an MMO. Now, I haven't logged in about 3 months, but I consider myself a SE fanboi, for better or worse. That said it's to imagine an MMO with the type of "unlock and be max rank" mechanics. I'm not sure that I want to play one.
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#53 May 31 2011 at 1:36 AM Rating: Good
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If it is true, you still need to do quests to unlock equipment and skills. So there will still be a path to follow...just not a leveling one until the existing level cap is increased.
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#54 May 31 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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volta1 wrote:
I read the OP, and didn't bother reading the rest of the thread. So take this comment for what it's worth:

This is quite possibly the single stupidest thing I've ever read. It defies all logic, gaming or otherwise.

There's a difference between "the grind" and having to work for status in an MMO. Now, I haven't logged in about 3 months, but I consider myself a SE fanboi, for better or worse. That said it's to imagine an MMO with the type of "unlock and be max rank" mechanics. I'm not sure that I want to play one.


It's stupid until you consider (and I'm assuming you're a FFXI player) how much time you spent leveling up your job to 75 versus how much time you spent "tricking out" your level 75 job and helping others do the same. I think you'll find upon reflection that the level 75 experience was pretty much where you and your friends invested most of your time.

The grind to endgame is superfluous tedium, and for the most part, its elimination from FFXI reflects that. It gets in the way of the fun, it doesn't enhance it at all. There might be this old notion that it helped you learn to play your job, but that went out the window with the advent of powerleveling, and it's only been worse since.

Why not just liberate yourself from the idea that it's even worth the trouble of putting in a requisite grind in the first place?

KaneKitty wrote:
If somebody wants a new class to level, it does not mean that they want it at the expense of any other content... you're committing the fallacy of black-and-white thinking, and then turning it into a straw-man to attack. XD


Did you just look up a Wikipedia article on fallacies and throw a bunch of random accusations at me based off the pretty list you found?

Think about it for a sec. If you had to grind jobs (presuming one for each combat class to start) from 1 to 50, they'd have to spend time balancing them all for such a journey. This is development time not spent just on focusing giving these jobs something to do at 50 where they should be already starting from. I don't think I'm being illogical about this. Adding another grind would be tantamount to yet another delay to endgame content. And I know people want endgame content...
#55 May 31 2011 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Exactly. Besides they'll still have to balance everything on the path to the next level cap after 50 is removed. Of course by then, hopefully everything should be on stable footing. If the players at max level already can spend their time unlocking the job they want to play as, and then searching for job specific equipment and skills via quests, they'll still have to level past that once the cap is removed, yet they'll be able to get a good foothold now. And of course thats just assuming the class that unlocks the job you want is at that skill level.

We still dont know if this is 100% the way it works, but if it does work this way, it's certainly not a bad thing.

All lower ranks will still need to level up, hopefully with a fun battle system that encourages grouping, and all the 50s will need to quest for equipment/skills, and still level up after the 2nd cap.

At this point I know i'm sounding like a broken record, but it needs reiterating.

Edited, May 31st 2011 3:02am by Teknoman
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#56 May 31 2011 at 4:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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#57 May 31 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
volta1 wrote:
I read the OP, and didn't bother reading the rest of the thread. So take this comment for what it's worth:

This is quite possibly the single stupidest thing I've ever read. It defies all logic, gaming or otherwise.

There's a difference between "the grind" and having to work for status in an MMO. Now, I haven't logged in about 3 months, but I consider myself a SE fanboi, for better or worse. That said it's to imagine an MMO with the type of "unlock and be max rank" mechanics. I'm not sure that I want to play one.


It's stupid until you consider (and I'm assuming you're a FFXI player) how much time you spent leveling up your job to 75 versus how much time you spent "tricking out" your level 75 job and helping others do the same. I think you'll find upon reflection that the level 75 experience was pretty much where you and your friends invested most of your time.

The grind to endgame is superfluous tedium, and for the most part, its elimination from FFXI reflects that. It gets in the way of the fun, it doesn't enhance it at all. There might be this old notion that it helped you learn to play your job, but that went out the window with the advent of powerleveling, and it's only been worse since.

Why not just liberate yourself from the idea that it's even worth the trouble of putting in a requisite grind in the first place?


It's normal to spend more time at the level cap once you've reached it than you spent leveling up, especially in a game where the cap was at the same level for what, 7 years? That doesn't take away from the fun and experience one might have acquired leveling to that cap.

Abyssea was the worse thing to happen to FFXI in my opinion, and I know my end game shell crumbled and died before/at the release when we learned they would essentially be removing all the challenge from the game. I quit before it came out and don't regret it, I'm left with my good memories and did not see the game turn into something completely different from what I enjoyed for several years.

How is saying that there's a clear difference in skill between a player who grinded to the cap and someone who got powerleveled an old notion? Sure powerleveling exists, doesn't mean it makes good players; it's usually pretty **** easy to spot someone who has no clue how to play their job at level cap. My linkshell leader was a very skilled Ninja, but he was a terrible, terrible Red Mage because he essentially powerleveled it to 75 without bothering to learn how to play it. Maybe you don't enjoy the leveling process, but there are lots of people out there who do.

Giving people access to these jobs that will come with new abilities and functions without a way to familiarize yourself with them first before being dropped into end game parties and end game events is pretty ridiculous. Just look at the Death Knight plague that went through World of Warcraft. Even today the class is associated with ****** unskilled players because you were essentially dropped into the game near the level cap and little to no time to learn how to perform your job correctly. This is what I'm afraid will happen with FFXIV if they hand out these "advanced" jobs too easily. Especially since they seem to be planning on making them useful mostly in situation where skill should be important.

ForceOfMeh wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
If somebody wants a new class to level, it does not mean that they want it at the expense of any other content... you're committing the fallacy of black-and-white thinking, and then turning it into a straw-man to attack. XD


Did you just look up a Wikipedia article on fallacies and throw a bunch of random accusations at me based off the pretty list you found?

Think about it for a sec. If you had to grind jobs (presuming one for each combat class to start) from 1 to 50, they'd have to spend time balancing them all for such a journey. This is development time not spent just on focusing giving these jobs something to do at 50 where they should be already starting from. I don't think I'm being illogical about this. Adding another grind would be tantamount to yet another delay to endgame content. And I know people want endgame content...


Haven't they stated multiple times now that different teams work on different content? I don't see why it should be impossible for them to work on end game content alongside developping solid jobs that can be taken from level 1 to 50.

My main issue with the grind in FFXIV is that there's nothing to look forward to. In XI, the grind was not the problem, it was the wait time between parties. But you had all these different milestones you could look forward to as you made you way to the cap, before even thinking about end game content.

In FFXIV, there's nothing. New gear is pretty much pointless since you can use level 50 gear right off the bat if you want. New abilities are pointless 90% of the time, if you can even equip them thanks to all the limitations in place. There are only a handful of class related quests and they aren't challenging and don't really enhance that class, etc. There's nothing to distract you from the grind at all, so it ends up feeling much worse than it actually is in many cases. **** even social interactions are a pain in the *** most of the time.

Hopefully with all the tweaks coming soon, a lot of that will change, and they will keep introducing things to break the grind monotony every few levels. I just really hope they won't hand us everything on a silver platter as they have been so far. that would really kill the remaining glimmer of hope I have left for this game. As someone who enjoys the leveling process, who loves starting fresh at level 1 and learning new abilities and mastering a new play style, it would really kill the remaining glimmer of hope I have left for this game.
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#58 May 31 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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Bruknarr wrote:
My main issue with the grind in FFXIV is that there's nothing to look forward to.


Bingo! Right there man. Right there is where I'm talking about.

There's already a ton of people who've leveled 1, 3, 7 classes to rank 50 already. They've done their grind. In some cases over and over. And for what? There's nothing to do!

That's really what's missing here. In FFXI, you planned your evenings around Dynamis, and camping HNMs, and KS99s, and Sky, and Limbus, and Sea, and Assault, and Salvage, and Einherjar, and WoE, and Abyssea... and that's just the linkshell stuff, among other things. Sure, it wasn't all there day one but as it rolled in, that's mostly what everyone got involved in.

Another grind would just be revolting. People have earned their stripes already, there's no excuse for making them jump through the same hoop they just jumped through. Even FFXI wasn't so cruel as that.

What we need is a reason to schedule weekly events with your friends to fight the next challenge you've been waiting to fight all this time.

And you know what? People will discover what jobs are needed at these things, and they'll probably rank up the classes for those jobs, anyway. But at least this time, they'll have something to look forward to when they get there, not just more grinding.
#59 May 31 2011 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Sounds like they are truly going back to their roots. Sounds like the Final Fantasy 1 Trial, or Final Fantasy 4's Mount of Ordeals (Please say the rat tail plays into one of these:), though I doubt it, considering how easy of a drop it is...)

Will be interesting to see if they continue with the arcanist, the musketeer, and the shepard.

I gotta say I am interested to see how this goes, as new classes will mean new jobs, and they could create a very interesting collection. Or even better overlapping jobs to classes (say thm and con could both be white mages, but as thm you only get access to some spells, and as con you only get access to others creating white mages of varying skills and abilities).

Can't wait to see how this goes.
#60 May 31 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
If somebody wants a new class to level, it does not mean that they want it at the expense of any other content... you're committing the fallacy of black-and-white thinking, and then turning it into a straw-man to attack. XD


Did you just look up a Wikipedia article on fallacies and throw a bunch of random accusations at me based off the pretty list you found?


First, I wouldn't call two "a bunch," but that's just me. >_>

Second, to clarify: I was saying that you were giving a false "either X or Y scenario" by asserting that it's not possible to want jobs to level and endgame content (even though it sure seemed possible in FFXI), and then you're attacking that position as "unfathomable," despite the fact that nobody has held that position.

It's black-and-white thinking because the issue's not black-and-white, and many posters seem to want both options, and it's a straw-man because no actual person stated the "unfathomable" position that you were attacking...
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#61 May 31 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
My main issue with the grind in FFXIV is that there's nothing to look forward to.


Bingo! Right there man. Right there is where I'm talking about.

There's already a ton of people who've leveled 1, 3, 7 classes to rank 50 already. They've done their grind. In some cases over and over. And for what? There's nothing to do!

That's really what's missing here. In FFXI, you planned your evenings around Dynamis, and camping HNMs, and KS99s, and Sky, and Limbus, and Sea, and Assault, and Salvage, and Einherjar, and WoE, and Abyssea... and that's just the linkshell stuff, among other things. Sure, it wasn't all there day one but as it rolled in, that's mostly what everyone got involved in.

Another grind would just be revolting. People have earned their stripes already, there's no excuse for making them jump through the same hoop they just jumped through. Even FFXI wasn't so cruel as that.

What we need is a reason to schedule weekly events with your friends to fight the next challenge you've been waiting to fight all this time.

And you know what? People will discover what jobs are needed at these things, and they'll probably rank up the classes for those jobs, anyway. But at least this time, they'll have something to look forward to when they get there, not just more grinding.


I agree there's a blatant lack of content, at all levels really, but it's slowly being adressed. People who have grinded 1-3-7 classes to 50 have done it willingly. Perhaps they enjoy the current battle system, even if I don't. Maybe they're masochistic, or they simply want to be ahead of the pack once the game is really worth playing.

XI made you work from scratch every time you wanted to play a new job, and I liked it that way. I always thought the job system was the best part of the game, I'd be quite annoyed if they removed my ability to enjoy new jobs by just handing them to me fully leveled.

What they should do is make endgame viable for the current classes as well as the new classes. Everyone should have a role to play, so no matter what they chose to level, they're not left out. That leaves people the choice to level something new, or stick to what they already have if they've had enough of the grind.

Leveling new jobs should not affect someone's ability to perform end game. And end game should not require exact and perfect setups that stop half the classes from participating. I guess I just don't like the idea of the job system as much as I thought I would before the newest info came out. Sounds like a waste to turn all the classes into nothing more than ability pools for those "advanced jobs." They should all have their place in endgame as well as during the leveling process. More options is rarely a bad thing.
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#62 May 31 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
I was saying that you were giving a false "either X or Y scenario" by asserting that it's not possible to want jobs to level and endgame content (even though it sure seemed possible in FFXI), and then you're attacking that position as "unfathomable," despite the fact that nobody has held that position.


Ah, but this is the fallacy of Affirming the Consequent. You are drawing a conclusion without a supporting premise.

First, I didn't accuse anyone of holding an unfathomable position. I'm merely offering a warning that someone who wishes to take that position might want to reconsider. For there to be a straw man, there needs to be a victim, and I haven't misrepresented anyone.

Second, you've misrepresented my position, and thus you are committing a straw man argument against me. So that makes two fallacies I've tolerated.

I'm not saying people can't want a grind and an endgame at the same time, especially since there has already been a grind in FFXIV in anticipation for the endgame. I did suggest that the grind isn't really necessary to have fun in an MMO if endgame is your goal. But what I'm really arguing is that by adding another 50 level grind on top of the one we just did is merely creating an intolerable delay to the creation of an endgame by duplicating the part of the game we've just finished with. Time spent coordinating another grind (balancing, creating armor and weapons, creating recipes for those armor and weapons, creating ingredients to gather for the creation of those armor and weapons...) is time not spent on developing the endgame.


Edited, May 31st 2011 2:50pm by ForceOfMeh
#63 May 31 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Default
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Bruknarr wrote:
XI made you work from scratch every time you wanted to play a new job, and I liked it that way. I always thought the job system was the best part of the game, I'd be quite annoyed if they removed my ability to enjoy new jobs by just handing them to me fully leveled.


I see it completely different. It'd be like you leveled Warrior from 1 to 70, you beat Maat, and instead of just doing the last 5 levels to reach the level 75 endgame he makes you start over from level 1 first. It'd be infuriating!

If you think of "job" as merely the endgame status of your class, then why shouldn't you enjoy it now? You've certainly earned it.

#64 May 31 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
I'm not saying people can't want a grind and an endgame at the same time, especially since there has already been a grind in FFXIV in anticipation for the endgame. I did suggest that the grind isn't really necessary to have fun in an MMO if endgame is your goal. But what I'm really arguing is that by adding another 50 level grind on top of the one we just did is merely creating an intolerable delay to the creation of an endgame by duplicating the part of the game we've just finished with. Time spent coordinating another grind (balancing, creating armor and weapons, creating recipes for those armor and weapons, creating ingredients to gather for the creation of those armor and weapons...) is time not spent on developing the endgame.


But as another poster has pointed out (and Yoshida himself has said), there are different teams; adding a class to grind is not taking people away from the "endgame event team."

From Yoshida:
"The dev team is actually split up into a bunch of smaller teams, each dedicated to a certain facet of the game. Off the top of my head, there’s the scenario team, the world settings team (including seasonal events), the item team, the crafting and gathering team, the battle team, the level design team, the art team, the character team, the BG team, the UI team, and so on and so forth. Each team focuses on certain game content or a particular system, and all teams’ tasks are ongoing simultaneously."

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#65 May 31 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
But as another poster has pointed out (and Yoshida himself has said), there are different teams; adding a class to grind is not taking people away from the "endgame event team."

From Yoshida:
"The dev team is actually split up into a bunch of smaller teams, each dedicated to a certain facet of the game. Off the top of my head, there’s the scenario team, the world settings team (including seasonal events), the item team, the crafting and gathering team, the battle team, the level design team, the art team, the character team, the BG team, the UI team, and so on and so forth. Each team focuses on certain game content or a particular system, and all teams’ tasks are ongoing simultaneously."


-_-;

If there's no need to set aside a team to develop a grind for these jobs, then that's more free hands to work on other things, like developing the endgame these jobs need.

Conversely, if they have to develop a grind, then it's only logical that they pull resources from developing endgame and put them on finishing this grind because that part has to be done first. So when all is said and done, all that development effort into creating the grind and all that playtime effort in getting through the grind will result in several more months of still waiting for that endgame to get started. We'd basically be right back where we are right now, only even more frustrated and annoyed.


Edited, May 31st 2011 7:40pm by ForceOfMeh
#66 May 31 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
XI made you work from scratch every time you wanted to play a new job, and I liked it that way. I always thought the job system was the best part of the game, I'd be quite annoyed if they removed my ability to enjoy new jobs by just handing them to me fully leveled.


I see it completely different. It'd be like you leveled Warrior from 1 to 70, you beat Maat, and instead of just doing the last 5 levels to reach the level 75 endgame he makes you start over from level 1 first. It'd be infuriating!

If you think of "job" as merely the endgame status of your class, then why shouldn't you enjoy it now? You've certainly earned it.



I would be annoyed, but that's quite different. There's a big difference between replaying the same class all over again for 70 levels and leveling a fresh new one from scratch. Different play style, different abilities, new storyline, new gear set, new role in a party, etc. There's much to learn and adapt to.

Like I said, I'm all for enjoying end game once you've made it there. But back in XI, I would have been pretty disappointed if leveling Warrior to 75 gave me instant access to a 75 Paladin, 75 Dark Knight and 75 Samurai. Three classes with pretty wildly different play styles. The same will hold true if unlocking Paladin at 50 only requires Conqueror to 50.

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#67 May 31 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bruknarr wrote:
I would be annoyed, but that's quite different. There's a big difference between replaying the same class all over again for 70 levels and leveling a fresh new one from scratch. Different play style, different abilities, new storyline, new gear set, new role in a party, etc. There's much to learn and adapt to.


But jobs are an extension of the class they belong to. It should be like getting a promotion. You're no longer a maggot, you're now a marine! You don't send a marine back to basic training; that concept is a total paradox. Likewise, there's no such thing as a suck-*** level 1 Paladin who has forgotten how to wield his sword all of a sudden. They're all elites because they've already proven themselves among the lowly Gladiators they crawled out from.
#68 May 31 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Think of it as Specialisation in Dragon Age. You're not level 21 Assassin/Duelist, you're still level 21 Rogue branching into Assassin/Duelist.
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#69 Jun 01 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Most of the discussion is from the point of view that all people who are going to play FFXIV and experience this new content already has at least 1 job and more have several 50's. This is not the stance that SE is approaching the changes from. They are trying to build up a foundation so that when PS3 release happens it is a success. I don't see SE keeping FFXIV afloat and continue to pour money into updates and expansions if only the current population are the ones playing 1 year from now. I do think PS3 will draw in thousands of new subs and I think SE will fix this sinking ship.

We really don't know when or how we will be able to unlock the new jobs but I'll just assume its what I want ex:

You want to play PLD so you must rank up GLD to 30. @ 30 you get access to the PLD quest. Now you can play as PLD or GLD. PLD has access to all the GLD skills but they also get job specific gear/weapons/shields/skills. The PLD job is superior in all ways except it can't cross class as freely as you can on a GLD. This limits your solo abilities but makes you a tanking machine in a party. If you sp past 30 you can be either GLD or PLD. Wanna make an awsome grind party? use the PLD. Wanna solo some quick leve's and you want access to more skills? use the GLD. I see the sp bar remaining for classes so SP earned on PLD would be applied to your GLD bar.

I'm sure they will add more then 1 job per class but i'm happy to hear they will be having at least 1 per class to start with. Thats a good sign of progress to me.
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#70 Jun 01 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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aj7418 wrote:

You want to play PLD so you must rank up GLD to 30. @ 30 you get access to the PLD quest. Now you can play as PLD or GLD. PLD has access to all the GLD skills but they also get job specific gear/weapons/shields/skills. The PLD job is superior in all ways except it can't cross class as freely as you can on a GLD. This limits your solo abilities but makes you a tanking machine in a party. If you sp past 30 you can be either GLD or PLD. Wanna make an awsome grind party? use the PLD. Wanna solo some quick leve's and you want access to more skills? use the GLD. I see the sp bar remaining for classes so SP earned on PLD would be applied to your GLD bar.


Hmmm, I think it's going to work similar to this, but not exactly. I think that when you become a PLD, you are limited in what skills you can choose from other classes (limiting the versatility), but you gain much more focused abilities for a tank class, such as enmity boosting moves, defensive moves, maybe even a PLD specific heal. I think the whole point of the jobs is for the new content that is being added for groups. GLD will remain your versatile class for soloing, but PLD will be your specialized class with perhaps a bit less damage potential and cross-class abilities, but significantly more tank-like abilities. Course, that could be wrong also, that's just my interpretation.

Edited, Jun 1st 2011 11:36am by BartelX
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#71 Jun 08 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Bruknarr wrote:
XI made you work from scratch every time you wanted to play a new job, and I liked it that way. I always thought the job system was the best part of the game, I'd be quite annoyed if they removed my ability to enjoy new jobs by just handing them to me fully leveled.


I see it completely different. It'd be like you leveled Warrior from 1 to 70, you beat Maat, and instead of just doing the last 5 levels to reach the level 75 endgame he makes you start over from level 1 first. It'd be infuriating!

If you think of "job" as merely the endgame status of your class, then why shouldn't you enjoy it now? You've certainly earned it.



No, it would be like leveling a job to 30 to unlock another job to play.

Regardless, this is all getting carried away from basically 2 sentences said from SE on the new jobs. And FOMeh, I'm not one of the many people who enjoy leeching a job in abyssea from 1-90. It's pointless and abyssea is a crutch for leechers.

What I do enjoy is playing with friends and gaining exp in a party setting that requires some skill and ability, thus making it FUN and not a grind. I hardly do endgame in FFXI as its just a drama-fest most of the time and dealing with many ls leaders is a chore as everyone is almost always out for themselves.

So no, I don't want to spend the majority of my game time sitting around because an event was supposed to start 30 minutes ago but only 4 people show up on time and we need 20 to even begin the event, then see the item I want drop and have the LS leader "fudge" the points so that he can get it for his in-game mithra girlfriend. I want stuff I can do with RL friends, in a small group. this includes leveling. I'm not a rank 50 in anything and my highest is 31.

So please, stop speaking for other people and passing your opinions off as facts. It seems every thread you post in you take this oppressive "I'm so right" attitude and it's annoying and makes you look like a douche.
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#72 Jun 08 2011 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, so this is news? When they announced jobs and said "they are specialisations" of the corresponding class, that's exactly what I had in mind. I'm R50 GLA(specialisation PLD). No other class rank or w/e involved.

Sometimes I really wonder what people are smoking if they ar unable to see/understand the obvious...

What made people ever believe jobs will be "new" classes that you will Rank all over again from 1 O.o

On the other hand they said specilisations will be favourable for paerty based content, while your "regular" class is more favourable for soloing stuff. So that alone should give people the hint that specialisations is something you turn on/off, not "change to" and lvl it all over.

They called it "specialisation" for your correspnding class the FIRST time they ever mentioned jobs, so don't play the surprised QQ now and be disappointed. You just seem to fail at comprehending what SE stated right from the start.

PS: They even said Jobs are NOT Advanced Classes...so just another fact that should have hinted you towards not believing they are gonna be grindable from 1 to 50...

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 6:52pm by Shezard
#73 Jun 08 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
Okay, so this is news? When they announced jobs and said "they are specialisations" of the corresponding class, that's exactly what I had in mind. I'm R50 GLA(specialisation PLD). No other class rank or w/e involved.

Sometimes I really wonder what people are smoking if they ar unable to see/understand the obvious...

What made people ever believe jobs will be "new" classes that you will Rank all over again from 1 O.o

On the other hand they said specilisations will be favourable for paerty based content, while your "regular" class is more favourable for soloing stuff. So that alone should give people the hint that specialisations is something you turn on/off, not "change to" and lvl it all over.

They called it "specialisation" for your correspnding class the FIRST time they ever mentioned jobs, so don't play the surprised QQ now and be disappointed. You just seem to fail at comprehending what SE stated right from the start.

PS: They even said Jobs are NOT Advanced Classes...so just another fact that should have hinted you towards not believing they are gonna be grindable from 1 to 50...

Edited, Jun 8th 2011 6:52pm by Shezard


For real. I thought I was the only one that actually read what SE was writting lol. I think part of what's going on is people are mixing their own interpretation of how it "should" be done with how it's explained by SE. To me, the idea of specializing within a class for a specific purpose (I.E. your "Job" in a party) makes much more sense than this "totally different class unlocked with it's own abilities but only specific to gladiator and levels up with it/seperate from it as it's own class but not really it's own class" confusion crap. This is how I'm thinking about it:

All classes are a foundation. They will still be the heart of what defines a characters role once the classes are reworked entirely from what Matsui said. In their foundation they will have the tools to go more towards a specific type of party setting, or a solo perspective depending on play style/need. Within each class however, you can "augment" your existing class with a "job" setting to take away and add certain stats/abilities/modifiers to point you towards a very specific purpose within a party setting. For example, A gladiator switching to a paladin specialization might remove some of the more offensive oriented abilities that gladiator might have. Would lock out various types of offensive abilities from other classes to prevent them from being cross classed. Give access to a few awesome abilities like a powerful AoE hate tool. and to finish it off, simply being PLD specialization might Increase HP, Def, VIT, and Natural enmity generation by a % while decreasing Damage and other stats by an inverse %.

Theoretical scenario

As a gladiator, you want to do some leves with 2 of your friends. So you set up your gladiator to be a tank/DD hybrid(depending on skill break down post patch, this might be how gladiator is structured with it's base skills anyway) with a heal or 2 from conjurer. your friends set their classes up in a similar fashion so that as a group of 3 you are balanced enough to handle the moderate obstacles you'll face in a leve setting. However, some other friends log on and want to do a dungeon run or a full on EXP party out at a camp. You all then go into your specializations and form a full or light party to take on the task. The gladiator becomes a full on tank, and the other classes fit into whatever their respective roles SE deems them.

The entire point of the system in my opinion isn't so much that its going to replace or work seperate from the class system, but instead work within it to help cater to multiple styles and needs of combat. To me, this makes sense as to why it's earned depending on the class, and doesn't require a rank up or grind in order to advance it. Also makes sense that various other additional skills/stat mods/other improvements would be quest oriented.

This sets up some ground work for later add ons and expansions as well. Maybe in the future after these initial battle changes we might either see more classes with specific specializations. Or we could see these same 7 core classes get multiple specializations to use in a party setting as well.
#74 Jun 08 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Being a casual player I have more fun leveling up then doing endgame content.

No matter how the content is setup, waiting for everyone to log in and assemble takes a long time. That cool drop (if it drops) is going to the guys that have all week, everyday, to dedicate to endgame content. The have all the LS points or whatever and I'll never have the time to compete with that nonsense. I'm only there for fun, to see new stuff. No real reward though.

Leveling up at least has a tangible reward. New gear unlocks, new spells/abilities. At least it used to.

Beside that, learning a to play a new job to maximum efficiency is best done level by level, ability by ability. Ever imagine those fools that buy the level 75 character and just suck at their role? Everyone is going to be that fool when they switch from 50 GLD to 50 PLD.

Unless there is NO difference to available abilities anyway. In which case, what's the point of the new jobs?



Edited, Jun 8th 2011 4:55pm by SmashingtonWho
#75 Jun 08 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
Being a casual player I have more fun leveling up then doing endgame content.

No matter how the content is setup, waiting for everyone to log in and assemble takes a long time. That cool drop (if it drops) is going to the guys that have all week, everyday, to dedicate to endgame content. The have all the LS points or whatever and I'll never have the time to compete with that nonsense. I'm only there for fun, to see new stuff. No real reward though.

Leveling up at least has a tangible reward. New gear unlocks, new spells/abilities. At least it used to.

Beside that, learning a to play a new job to maximum efficiency is best done level by level, ability by ability. Ever imagine those fools that buy the level 75 character and just suck at their role? Everyone is going to be that fool when they switch from 50 GLD to 50 PLD.

Unless there is NO difference to available abilities anyway. In which case, what's the point of the new jobs?



Edited, Jun 8th 2011 4:55pm by SmashingtonWho


In the given scenario where Paladin is just a further specialization of gladiator, which Matsui himself didn't indicate how many new abilities a specialization could potentially give (I'm thinking 80% or so of abilities still coming from gladiator, and the rest from Paladin specialization or allowed cross classing). To me, that's like saying unlocking merit abilities suddenly makes you terrible at your job.

regardless of when the possible "jobs" are unlocked, you'll probably have time within unlocking it to try it out and understand it better. Seeing as the new dungeon content is both for rank 50 full parties and rank 30 light parties, I have a feeling people can unlock their specializations as early as rank 30. Once more, since we don't know to what degree classes are going to be restructured even from how it is now, I'm pretty sure most everyone come 1.18 will have a lot to relearn. Those with rank 30+ (or whateverr the rank is for unlocking jobs) just have more to learn with their new Jobs as well as class restructuring.

I will say that I'm just speculating like everyone else. I obviously don't know more than what anyone else does. So I apologize if I come off a bit know it all. I'm mearly giving my point of view.


Edited, Jun 8th 2011 9:44pm by ZigiaraNyosu
#76 Jun 09 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
ZigiaraNyosu wrote:
(I'm thinking 80% or so of abilities still coming from gladiator, and the rest from Paladin specialization or allowed cross classing). To me, that's like saying unlocking merit abilities suddenly makes you terrible at your job.


Well, Gladiator has 32 abilities, so it would be like unlocking ~6-7 new abilities simultaneously, which is nothing like the way merits worked - in fact, I don't think you could even have that many merit abilities... so the scenario is different.

Regardless, we don't know how the system will turn out; of course, given what I've observed these last ~200 days, I have prepared for a very uninspired system.
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#77 Jun 09 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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78 posts
No second-tier grinding?? Square-Enix, if this is true, I am SO PROUD OF YOU! You're finally learning how to make a next-gen MMO!

Hopefully the reason they didn't feel the need to string us along with more months of grinding is because they have actual game content planned. <3
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