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#1 May 30 2011 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/05/29/grin-squareenix.aspx

According to the founders of Swedish developer GRIN, working with SquareEnix was an incredibly frustrating task. They were working on a Final Fantasy project called "Fortress," and Ulf and Bo Andersson clearly aren't happy with their experience.

"We wanted to come in and revolutionize Final Fantasy, which is exactly what they need," said the brothers. "The latest version sucks of course." At one point, SquareEnix requested the Anderssons send the code via fax. "It is as silly as it sounds. It is an impossible requirement, you can not send ascii or binary codes on the fax. It is backward. Really retarded. It was almost a criminal activity."

SquareEnix thought that their concept art didn't look like Final Fantasy, so the brothers decided to test them by sending concept art from Final Fantasy XII. As they had before, they responded with "It does not look like Final Fantasy."

GRIN may be six feet under now, but their former staffers have formed other studios since the closure. It's possible we may see what they've been working on at E3.

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#2 May 30 2011 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
Like most people, I am still waiting to hear the other side of the story about this. Honestly, I have my doubts about it being legit, since I doubt even SE is able to make a mistake as big as the faxing over of code.
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#3 May 30 2011 at 4:27 AM Rating: Default
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Sounds like bulldink to me.
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#4 May 30 2011 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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Send code via Fax?

I smell ******
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#5 May 30 2011 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Considering some of the "design choices" that have been made just in XIV... this doesn't really sound completely improbable. :/
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#6 May 30 2011 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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News of this came out a couple of years back, and there was even leaked video of the terrain they were working on for the game.

If they really were working on a whole Final Fantasy game, and they had to work with a great deal of people within SE that felt such a task should remain in Japan, I could see how they'd be circle-jerked to death. I doubt they were going to make it easy to watch their flagship series get completely outsourced.

But even while it's plausible, who knows how true this really is?

Then again, if it is true, could part of the reason FFXIV sucks be because of in-fighting with Chinese coders who were known to be working on the game?

Edited, May 30th 2011 10:57am by ForceOfMeh
#7 May 30 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Take a long look at GRINs portfolio before you jump to any conclusions... I think you'll find they had nothing worth bragging about and very likely little most of the coders were fully proud of. I'd really like to see SEs response to this as it has spread like wild fire on the net.
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#8 May 30 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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XIV had a bad launch. But I don't see where people get Square Enix is in trouble or they don't know how to make games anymore.
Yes, XIII was big departure from the old style of FF. But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.

Omg, SE has one foot in the grave. /sarcasm off
Dragon Age origins only sold 3.2 million copies and that was game of the year for 2009? Is Bioware in trouble?When SE stops selling 1 million boxes per entry. Then I will start to take these kinds of opinions seriously. The latest entries have just been different than the 1-10.

Go look at 1UP today. Third Birthday, FFIV, and dissiddia are the most wanted games on that website only Bioshock Infinite is above them. The main prblem with the series, is lately their is no evil antagonist that drives you to pure hatred or epic/visceral end of the world scenarios. This same reason is what DA2 got crap for. You went from fighting the blight and saving the world. To a Champion who only saves Kirkwall, babysits family and friends and the blight played a backseat. Btw, I liked Bioware too, I liked DA2 but still preferred Origins more.
#9 May 30 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.
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#10 May 30 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.

That is exactly the point as well. I didnt think it would be any good, but i bought it just to give it a chance it might be decent. And with me 5 million others. The amount of sales doesnt prove if something is a good game or not, it proves that the franchise name is good and that people expect it not to suck.

Since it's an offline game, SE doesnt care about if it is a good game or not. They dont have to do updates or have to keep their playerbase happy. It just needs to have a catchy name to sell. And nothing sells like slapping "Final Fantasy" on something. Heck, i can wait till they release Final Fantasy Pong for $49,99 and still sell 5 million copies of that as well.
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#11 May 30 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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I just thought of The Brothers Grim.
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#12 May 30 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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You can say whatever you want about it sucking or you being dissapointed. Bottom line is you spent your money. If you truly feel their games suck. Stop buying them hoping for them to be good?

People say the series has gone downhill since 9 or 10. Well, does that mean people keep buying every entry hoping their good? Do you purchase houses or cars that way?
While their traditional style has changed for the better or worse over the series. They seem to be bring in new audiences. I think it is the old school square fans who don't like how the series keep changing. I'm an old school fan also but still find enjoyment in the latest entries.

The FF is such a long running series. And every fan has their own preferences or favorites. It is no wonder they are having a hard time giving fans what they want. When millions of fans want different things.

If the majority wants them to go back to old school. They all need to stand up and be vocal about it so SE hears them. Say we don't want state of the art graphics, we want overworld maps, etc, etc.
#13 May 30 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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This tastes, smells, and feels like a want for attention more so than a legit issue. Not saying more till i see SE's rebuttal, if they even see fit to provide one.
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#14 May 30 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.


This is my point elsewhere too. Games, especially in a series, sell initially based on the strength of the previous games. FFXIII May have sold 5m off initial series perception, but I can guarantee FFXV will sell much worse initially no matter how good the game may be.
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#15 May 30 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft wrote:
[quote=lolgaxe]but I can guarantee FFXV will sell much worse initially no matter how good the game may be.



I wouldn't take that bet... People are about as farm animals sometimes... we have a herding instinct and a comfot zone, give a man the most comfortable chair in the world for half his life and one day stick a needle in the cushion... bet he sits down in it more than once and continues to go back to that chair hoping one day the needle will dissapear even though there's an equally comfy yet unsimilar appearing chair right next to it

/end drunk analogy
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#16 May 30 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft wrote:
FFXIII May have sold 5m off initial series perception, but I can guarantee FFXV will sell much worse initially no matter how good the game may be.


I really want to believe that people are smart enough to do the research and if applicable, join in a test phase to see if the product will be worth their time. Unfortunately, you're posting in a forum for a game that actually did have an open testing phase and people refused to believe, even after seeing the proof, that this game wasn't worth it.

I'd be tempted to blame pretty graphics for the lack of substance in today's games, but there are still good games produced and being developed that combine both. I can't make any excuses for SE.
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#17 May 30 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.


I read several reviews, then bought FFXIII. You can't be very disappointed if you do a little bit of research.
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#18 May 30 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
At one point, SquareEnix requested the Anderssons send the code via fax. "It is as silly as it sounds. It is an impossible requirement, you can not send ascii or binary codes on the fax. It is backward. Really retarded. It was almost a criminal activity.


To anyone who believes this:

Let's do business. I have a bridge that needs selling.
#19 May 30 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion wrote:
To anyone who believes this:

Let's do business. I have a bridge that needs selling.

I have no use of a bridge, but we can start talking if you get your hands on the moon.

In all seriousness, though I agree with Osarion. Either GRIN is trying to troll us, or he was the victim of someone's idea of a bad joke.

For example, promising a multi-million dollar contract if you make the next Final Fantasy game, then seeing how far you can take the joke.
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#20 May 30 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.
I read several reviews, then bought FFXIII. You can't be very disappointed if you do a little bit of research.
I don't waste my time with game reviews. Most (if not all) of the time they're more interested in writing positive reviews because they don't want to lose advertising money or receiving pre-release items and games. Case in point, most gave FFXIII a fairly good review, far better than it actually deserved.

Not sure what you're trying to say.

Edited, May 30th 2011 8:17pm by lolgaxe
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#21 May 30 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know about the majority of you all, but I bought ffxiii last Christmas when it was on sale for $17.00.
I'd wager that there were many other people that did the same. I didn't really care about the reviews at that point lol.
$17.00 for an RPG no matter how bad the reviews is worth checking out at least. Sorry posting from an iPod might look strange.

Edit: srry meant RPG. Posted in haste

Edited, May 30th 2011 10:02pm by spazzretired
#22 May 30 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
Take a long look at GRINs portfolio before you jump to any conclusions... I think you'll find they had nothing worth bragging about and very likely little most of the coders were fully proud of.


Bionic Commando: Rearmed disproves your statement.
#23 May 30 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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spazzretired wrote:
I don't know about the majority of you all, but I bought ffxiii last Christmas when it was on sale for $17.00.
I'd wager that there were many other people that did the same. I didn't really care about the reviews at that point lol.
$17.00 for an RPG no matter how bad the reviews is worth checking out at least. Sorry posting from an iPod might look strange.

Edit: srry meant RPG. Posted in haste

Edited, May 30th 2011 10:02pm by spazzretired


I think the fact that it's less than $20 less than a year after its release should have clued you in as to how bad it was.
#24 May 30 2011 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.
I read several reviews, then bought FFXIII. You can't be very disappointed if you do a little bit of research.
I don't waste my time with game reviews. Most (if not all) of the time they're more interested in writing positive reviews because they don't want to lose advertising money or receiving pre-release items and games. Case in point, most gave FFXIII a fairly good review, far better than it actually deserved.

Not sure what you're trying to say.


See, there's the problem: I said that I read the reviews, not just the number they put at the end. Looking at the same links you sent (which you apparently didn't pay much attention to), I see the following lines stand out:


"The story got a mixed reception, with Wired remarking that the plot was 'a little more human and less esoteric than in previous games.' 1UP.com felt that the story was 'hardly world-class writing.'"


"While critics generally praised Square Enix's attempt to revitalize the Final Fantasy series formula, many reacted negatively to the linear nature of the game, especially in the first ten chapters on Cocoon"

"GamePro described the gameplay as 'a long hallway toward an orange target symbol on your mini-map that triggers a cutscene, a boss fight, or both,'"



So, in conclusion: reading a variety of reviews can help you know what to expect from a game, provided that you correlate similar problems reviewers highlight, and not just the numbers at the end. d(^_~)


Edited, May 30th 2011 11:36pm by KaneKitty
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#25 May 31 2011 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.
I read several reviews, then bought FFXIII. You can't be very disappointed if you do a little bit of research.
I don't waste my time with game reviews. Most (if not all) of the time they're more interested in writing positive reviews because they don't want to lose advertising money or receiving pre-release items and games. Case in point, most gave FFXIII a fairly good review, far better than it actually deserved.

Not sure what you're trying to say.


See, there's the problem: I said that I read the reviews, not just the number they put at the end. Looking at the same links you sent (which you apparently didn't pay much attention to), I see the following lines stand out:


"The story got a mixed reception, with Wired remarking that the plot was 'a little more human and less esoteric than in previous games.' 1UP.com felt that the story was 'hardly world-class writing.'"


"While critics generally praised Square Enix's attempt to revitalize the Final Fantasy series formula, many reacted negatively to the linear nature of the game, especially in the first ten chapters on Cocoon"

"GamePro described the gameplay as 'a long hallway toward an orange target symbol on your mini-map that triggers a cutscene, a boss fight, or both,'"



So, in conclusion: reading a variety of reviews can help you know what to expect from a game, provided that you correlate similar problems reviewers highlight, and not just the numbers at the end. d(^_~)


Edited, May 30th 2011 11:36pm by KaneKitty


Yeah, and at the exact same time, 1 line below the ones you quoted there were these:

Quote:
In contrast, reviewers from GamesRadar and Computer and Video Games appreciated the linear nature; the former stated that "the streamlined, focused structure eliminates potential tedium without dumbing anything down",[7] while the latter felt it was "a clever move",[99] and kept the player from being "[bogged] down with mundane number crunching, [and] finicky and repetitive leveling-up."


This is exactly why reviews are NOT the best way to judge a game. Everyone has such varied opinions, the only thing you're really getting from a review is the general concepts of gameplay and a whole bunch of opinionated jargon. I'm not saying it isn't helpful to read reviews, but it certainly isn't a make or break decision on whether a game is good or not. I read TONS of reviews on XIII before buying it, from all ranges of the spectrum. I still had no idea if I'd like it, and it turned out that I absolutely didn't. You have to form your own opinions on a game and while reviews might be able to provide some helpful info, they certainly don't help me decide whether or not I like a game.
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#26 May 31 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

I really want to believe that people are smart enough to do the research and if applicable, join in a test phase to see if the product will be worth their time. Unfortunately, you're posting in a forum for a game that actually did have an open testing phase and people refused to believe, even after seeing the proof, that this game wasn't worth it.

I'd be tempted to blame pretty graphics for the lack of substance in today's games, but there are still good games produced and being developed that combine both. I can't make any excuses for SE.


You can not and should not judge a came by the testing phase quality, as well "worth it or not" can not be applied to a MMO game that has not hit 1 year. If anyone here can get there hands on info about FF11 's first 2 years closed in JP you would know that it fared much worse than 14 at the moment. In reality 14 should have not been pushed out till late this year so at the moment we are playing the "test phase". In 6months when 14 matches the weight it should have people will back paddle like mad, but complaining now some how seems appealing for most.
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#27 Jun 01 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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I ended up with FFXIII not because of the reviews but because I was lazy ; ;

I went to Gamestop and preordered God of War 3 and he told me it would be out Tuesday. Went by Tuesday and said I was there to pick GoW3 up and he told it was going to be released the following Tuesday but that FFXIII was released today and I drove all the way over there so I picked it up instead.
#28 Jun 01 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

I really want to believe that people are smart enough to do the research and if applicable, join in a test phase to see if the product will be worth their time. Unfortunately, you're posting in a forum for a game that actually did have an open testing phase and people refused to believe, even after seeing the proof, that this game wasn't worth it.

I'd be tempted to blame pretty graphics for the lack of substance in today's games, but there are still good games produced and being developed that combine both. I can't make any excuses for SE.


You can not and should not judge a came by the testing phase quality, as well "worth it or not" can not be applied to a MMO game that has not hit 1 year. If anyone here can get there hands on info about FF11 's first 2 years closed in JP you would know that it fared much worse than 14 at the moment. In reality 14 should have not been pushed out till late this year so at the moment we are playing the "test phase". In 6months when 14 matches the weight it should have people will back paddle like mad, but complaining now some how seems appealing for most.


I'll say the same thing I say every time I see this similar thought posted. You're making some pretty huge assumptions there about FFXIV. It's been 8 months, and while there have been significant improvements to the game, no one has come back. Perhaps you're right and when they start releasing content people will come marching back, but I can't say I firmly believe that anymore like you do. It's certainly possible 6 months from now the game will be great... but remember all the people in alpha/beta that said "it's only alpha/beta, wait for launch". Well, we're all still waiting...
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#29 Jun 01 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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OK, I really want to know where people are getting their facts. I've heard wild assertion being made about the game having a multi-million dollar development budget, that over 2000 programmers are working on the game, and that Chinese worker-drones are programming the game. Where the **** are people getting these facts? Are they coming from official sources?
#30 Jun 01 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
sandpark wrote:
But if you look at the sales it sold around 5 million copies.
And produced five million disappointed gamers.


I read several reviews, then bought FFXIII. You can't be very disappointed if you do a little bit of research.

Sometimes I find my opinions are different from those who are paid to write them. Another game you may have heard of, Alpha Protocol, had a poor showing on the reviewer circuit, but I bought it anyway for $10 used out of curiosity. Perhaps, I thought, it wasn't as bad as the internet claimed.

My verdict: more fun than FFXIII and Dragon Age 2, which isn't saying much, but there has been a dearth of good RPGs in the last year.
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#31 Jun 01 2011 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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HardHotThrobbingAetherite wrote:
and that Chinese worker-drones are programming the game. Where the **** are people getting these facts? Are they coming from official sources?
This? That's just speculation. I'd say it's at least plausible. The game was really, really ****** in alpha.
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#32 Jun 01 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Default
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HardHotThrobbingAetherite wrote:
OK, I really want to know where people are getting their facts. I've heard wild assertion being made about the game having a multi-million dollar development budget, that over 2000 programmers are working on the game, and that Chinese worker-drones are programming the game. Where the **** are people getting these facts? Are they coming from official sources?


Atleast the multi million dollar part is true, even vanilla wow costed up to 75-100million, that was 8 years ago....
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#33 Jun 03 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
I like Enix, and I like Squaresoft. It's SquareEnix that's the problem.
#34 Jun 04 2011 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

I really want to believe that people are smart enough to do the research and if applicable, join in a test phase to see if the product will be worth their time. Unfortunately, you're posting in a forum for a game that actually did have an open testing phase and people refused to believe, even after seeing the proof, that this game wasn't worth it.

I'd be tempted to blame pretty graphics for the lack of substance in today's games, but there are still good games produced and being developed that combine both. I can't make any excuses for SE.


You can not and should not judge a came by the testing phase quality, as well "worth it or not" can not be applied to a MMO game that has not hit 1 year. If anyone here can get there hands on info about FF11 's first 2 years closed in JP you would know that it fared much worse than 14 at the moment. In reality 14 should have not been pushed out till late this year so at the moment we are playing the "test phase". In 6months when 14 matches the weight it should have people will back paddle like mad, but complaining now some how seems appealing for most.

FFXIV was a carbon copy(minus some minor aesthetics and the in-game items) from open beta to release. I stated several times that what you see would be what you get despite the massive cry that a wave of content would be added overnight. It didn't happen in the weeks before XIV went live, it didn't happen over the month that Tanaka asked for before reviews were to be written and it hasn't materialized over nearly 9 months(important) since release. The majority of people who play this game might not tell you that it's crap and destined for failure, but they will tell you that it's still on the level of a beta test.

FFXI on the other hand was a fresh face in a new market. It wasn't expected to be well received, but it beat SE's projection for when it was expected to become profitable. Going back to the bolded 9 months I stated previously, it was that same amount of time between FFXI launching in the US on PC and when it hit PS2. I can't for the life of me find the **** article, but SE stated that in the US players preferred the PC version over PS2 at a ratio of 2:1...

This does not bode well for the still non-existent release dates for both the PS3 launch and the first expansion. Considering that they're still trying to piece together a strong foundation on which to build, I don't see either of the aforementioned coming down the pipes any time soon.

TL;DR

XIV is currently a beta test with a $15 entry fee($50-70 for those of you who didn't heed the warning signs in beta). There is a small chance that PS3 launch will spark interest or even return to Eorzea by those who fled, but that small glimmer of hope is going to meet Ultimate End if PS3 isn't accompanied by a great first expansion.




Edited, Jun 4th 2011 3:26am by FilthMcNasty
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#35 Jun 06 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

I really want to believe that people are smart enough to do the research and if applicable, join in a test phase to see if the product will be worth their time. Unfortunately, you're posting in a forum for a game that actually did have an open testing phase and people refused to believe, even after seeing the proof, that this game wasn't worth it.

I'd be tempted to blame pretty graphics for the lack of substance in today's games, but there are still good games produced and being developed that combine both. I can't make any excuses for SE.


You can not and should not judge a came by the testing phase quality, as well "worth it or not" can not be applied to a MMO game that has not hit 1 year. If anyone here can get there hands on info about FF11 's first 2 years closed in JP you would know that it fared much worse than 14 at the moment. In reality 14 should have not been pushed out till late this year so at the moment we are playing the "test phase". In 6months when 14 matches the weight it should have people will back paddle like mad, but complaining now some how seems appealing for most.

FFXIV was a carbon copy(minus some minor aesthetics and the in-game items) from open beta to release. I stated several times that what you see would be what you get despite the massive cry that a wave of content would be added overnight. It didn't happen in the weeks before XIV went live, it didn't happen over the month that Tanaka asked for before reviews were to be written and it hasn't materialized over nearly 9 months(important) since release. The majority of people who play this game might not tell you that it's crap and destined for failure, but they will tell you that it's still on the level of a beta test.

FFXI on the other hand was a fresh face in a new market. It wasn't expected to be well received, but it beat SE's projection for when it was expected to become profitable. Going back to the bolded 9 months I stated previously, it was that same amount of time between FFXI launching in the US on PC and when it hit PS2. I can't for the life of me find the **** article, but SE stated that in the US players preferred the PC version over PS2 at a ratio of 2:1...

This does not bode well for the still non-existent release dates for both the PS3 launch and the first expansion. Considering that they're still trying to piece together a strong foundation on which to build, I don't see either of the aforementioned coming down the pipes any time soon.

TL;DR

XIV is currently a beta test with a $15 entry fee($50-70 for those of you who didn't heed the warning signs in beta). There is a small chance that PS3 launch will spark interest or even return to Eorzea by those who fled, but that small glimmer of hope is going to meet Ultimate End if PS3 isn't accompanied by a great first expansion.

Edited, Jun 4th 2011 3:26am by FilthMcNasty


While I agree with you about the very tough future for FFXIV, you completely ignored the part about how FFXI was released in Japan over a year before the US PC release. You really can't compare the 2 games like that because realistically, if you look back at the timeline for FFXI, it got almost NO content for those first 2 years, and much of the improvements they made were similar to what is happening in FFXIV.

In no way am I trying to say that I think this is ok, or that it means FFXIV will be a success. I'm just pointing out that if you are trying to make a comparison between the 2, you really need to account for when FFXI actually released, not just when it got released in the US.
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