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EDITORIAL: Raiders of the Lost PatchFollow

#52 Jun 03 2011 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Quote:
And yes psychoanalyzing me and my interest in this game over a couple of posts on ZAM does not in any way make you look smarter.


But it certainly does make him look fly to all the ladies!

Pretty fly (for a white guy)

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 8:44am by MrTalos


What's really sad is that Aerosmith and The Offspring are pretty much in that category of "Classic" now... God I feel old.
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#53 Jun 03 2011 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its not that the engine is really that crappy its the programmers who dont' know how to use it properly. Its very similar to how you can take a system like the PS3 and compare titles released each year. They continue to get better and better not because the engine was crappy and all the sudden its magically fixed/improved the next year but rather the developers of the game know how to utilize it better. Programming on the PS3 many devs orignally tapped about 25% of its potential at launch then came a dev house like Naughty Dog and out Came Uncharted/2/..3 and those really show how to push the ps3 to the limits.

The crappy wards have little to do with the engine and alot to do with the game design and SQL used to run those specific instances. They chose to have constant sql calls with every god **** step of the process. They have said in letters that they are going to drastically rework this portion of code (which relates to every portion of the game and not just wards). It was a decision for total server side control rather then letting the users PC handle some of the mini steps and have the server commit the sql changes after the fact.

This is the opinion of someone who is a full time DBA SQL programmer working on a large scale transaction based health management system.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 9:43am by aj7418
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#54 Jun 03 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Hugus wrote:
Yeap, someone that has 99% of their thread criticizing and ridiculing current and future possiblilties of the games is definatly happy about it!!!!

This is not a crusade btw, I just can't figure out why people keep playing a game they can only say bad things about.
Bleam wrote:
I usually stay away from personal battles, but you two have been going at it for awhile now. I have to say, that I can't help but agree with Hugus. Every post that I see you make has been your point of view on how horrible this game is, regardless of the emotions that you project to this forum about FFXIV (and yes, it is quite easy to read someone's emotions on a forum if they are sarcastic, ignorant, bullheaded, upset, etc)...
You guys fundamentally misunderstand the personal opinions of the people having problems with the game and wind up generating and projecting your own very simplistic ones onto them as a defense mechanism to someone who is critical of something you enjoy: "oh he must just hate it... just quit and go away!"
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#55 Jun 03 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
You guys fundamentally misunderstand the personal opinions of the people having problems with the game and wind up generating and projecting your own very simplistic ones onto them as a defense mechanism to someone who is critical of something you enjoy: "oh he must just hate it... just quit and go away!"


I couldn't agree more.

Criticism has the potential to improve the game. It's not about being right, but presenting different ideas. Some ideas will be stinkers, but sometimes you'll find one and think, "Hmm. Never thought about that before. Maybe that would work better."

FFXIV has a lot of room for improvement.
#56 Jun 03 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
You guys fundamentally misunderstand the personal opinions of the people having problems with the game and wind up generating and projecting your own very simplistic ones onto them as a defense mechanism to someone who is critical of something you enjoy: "oh he must just hate it... just quit and go away!"



ForceOfMeh wrote:
Criticism has the potential to improve the game. It's not about being right, but presenting different ideas. Some ideas will be stinkers, but sometimes you'll find one and think, "Hmm. Never thought about that before. Maybe that would work better."

FFXIV has a lot of room for improvement.




...there is good healthy criticism and then there is this:

Quote:
There's no golden patch cause theres no fast and easy way to fix the cluster@#%^ of an engine/server software the game runs on. Which is the reason as to why we haven't gotten many features we've been hoping for.


The patch will suck because good things cannot be implemented.

Quote:
2. You really believe all the changes will come in one golden patch? It's like this every patch: "Next patch is going to be golden patch and will completely change the game!" What a naive attitude. You think the dev team has unlimited resources and can fix everything at once and implement it all without any issues at all?


The dev team has failed and will fail again.

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The simple fact is that they still are building upon server code that can't handle anything more than its currently being put under stress for. Besaid is one of the smaller servers in FFXIV and still the ul'dah wards come crashing down often cause the area server can't handle the stress from all the calls. I can only imagine what a delivery system would do with the servers in the current state.


Even if they do come up with something, it won't work.

Quote:
FFXIV is a game that needs renovations in server and game code so they can add all the features we all want in this game and they are actually pressed for time to make these changes as many competitors are on the horizon including their new MMO.


It will fail because they have to deliver fast.

That's... great criticism, isn't it? Yeah, this sure helps the dev team. Someone is on to them and now they will sure make the necessary changes first before they work on improvements!

Come on! The poster is basically saying that the patient is about to die and that nothing can be done about this. You do not achieve anything with that kind of "criticism" (it's just bashing and predicting bad things, nothing more) and in a case like this - when posts are packed with anger - it is not so simplistic to ask this person the question why he is still playing a game that started out as crap, still is crap and won't change into anything else but crap.

And Bsphil...are you going to tell me during the making of your 21k+ on ZAM you never wanted to ask somebody the exact same question?


Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 9:03pm by Woofdram
#57 Jun 03 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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I like how you twist my no fast way to fix to can't be fixed. Also funny how me saying one patch wont be the miracle patch that fixes everything makes me the big bad guy hehe.

There is no miracle patch cause to lessen the server load means to remove and redo how the client calls on the server that the different parts of the game does(combat system, wards and retainer activity and the anima system(to a lesser extent I assume)). When that is done they can start adding additional things that requires calls on the server on a frequent basis such as the delivery system and the ability to control your ls without having the person you want to kick or invite ect. in the same zone as you to mention some things.

In short no there will be no miracle patch cause there is no easy way to fix all the causes as to why the servers are getting strained.
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#58 Jun 04 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I like how you twist my no fast way to fix to can't be fixed. Also funny how me saying one patch wont be the miracle patch that fixes everything makes me the big bad guy hehe.


Oh, but I am not saying that you are wrong... or right. I read your posts and definitely took it into account that you may have a point.

And that does not make you the bad guy. Not at all.

But do you think it is weird that people seriously wonder why a person whose posts do not contain a grain of positivity in them is still playing this particular game? And would you consider your posts as criticism SE can use to significantly improve the game just in time before competitors blast FFXIV away once an for all? Because somebody apparently did and I disagree.

I see this patch as the all-or-nothing patch, and with "all" I mean that it puts FFXIV back on the map as a game PS3 people are adviced to buy because things are finally starting to look really good. So far the adjustments they have made didn't significantly change the game nor did it trigger most people to log in more often. Maybe now things WILL become more interesting, people WILL log in more often and SE WILL work on more improvements in the future.

That would make it the lifesaving patch, and to me that comes awefully close to the definition of a golden patch.
#59 Jun 04 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think if everybody thinks of this next few months as the "Golden Summer of FFXIV" there will be much less disappointment. The game will no doubt still have some serious shortcomings even after 1.18, but optimistically, if everything on SE's "to do" list actually gets done this summer, then we will have a game worthy of subscription fees.

Quote:
There’s auto attack, the company system, the addition of materia, auto attack, traditional Final Fantasy jobs, instanced dungeons and more. And the most amazing thing is this could all be implemented by the middle of June.


Yeah right. If anyone seriously thinks all these changes will be fully implemented in 1.18 they are delusional.


Edited spelling

Edited, Jun 4th 2011 11:12am by mullesch85
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#60 Jun 04 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I said it several times in other threads already. To think ALL of the stuff they want to implement and have planned til the end of Summer is gonna be in the June patch is just ridiculous.

Think of 1.18 as the new foundation for the way the game is heading now. It will be a start, not the finish line! By the time we hit autumn(Patch 1.20/1.21 maybe?), expect the game to be where it should have been at release last year. If you expect any more, you'll get disappointed!
#61 Jun 04 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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So have we heard what day this magical patch will be on?
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#62 Jun 04 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh absolutely. I know this upcoming patch will be a stepping stone because the battle system is a big deal but I don't think this game will be ready until the end of this year.
#63 Jun 04 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
I personally don't think any patch will save this game. DCUO has been trying to do the same thing, but they're actually in a worse off position than SE, having already merged most of their servers. Recovering from this game is almost becoming impossible because most people who quit aren't paying attention to it anymore. The longer it takes them to fix it, the further it becomes in people's minds.

When this is the first impression you set, word of mouth goes around quickly and you're pretty much well doomed to fail. This could be the "golden patch", it'll make current players happy, possibly a few who have quit curious, but I think that's all it will accomplish, minor interest.
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#64 Jun 04 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
DCUO has been trying to do the same thing


DCUO does not have the opportunity for a second large scale launch on a different platform.

Quote:
This could be the "golden patch", it'll make current players happy, possibly a few who have quit curious, but I think that's all it will accomplish, minor interest.


Again, you are forgetting the unique position SE is in with the PS3. I'm not saying they won't ***** it up, but the potential for a successful game is there if it's handled well.

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#65 Jun 04 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Woofdram wrote:
That's... great criticism, isn't it? Yeah, this sure helps the dev team. Someone is on to them and now they will sure make the necessary changes first before they work on improvements!


It's like panning for gold. You have to sift out a lot of crap you don't want until you get to the good stuff. If good ideas weren't so rare, you wouldn't see games like this experience colossal failures.
#66 Jul 01 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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With auto-attack it is a concerning that they are revamping the whole game instead of trying to tweak stamina to work right. If I'm correct stamina max never increases as you go up to rank 50. A simple fix like that would slowly increase the speed of battle. On terms for "auto-attack" they could have easily implemented a slider that would use x% of stamina for auto-attack and save the rest for TP moves and such, with the option to still use the move set to auto-attack as a regular command.

If I had to make something known as a golden patch it would include the following:
-Increase the uniqueness of Gatherer mini-games, having them expand with different things to do as you rank up
-Expand on Stamina have it so that as your physical rank increases you obtain more stamina to use
-Instead of mages uses "Stamina" give them "Mana Fatigue" for the abilities they use (it would work just like stamina but have different mods to improve it)
-Make guardians useful, a system that should've opened up a wide array of customization from abilities, traits, to unique guardian aspects was nothing more then flavor text.
-Expand on Guardian aspect, with the way aspects work they should've just called it "Skill Boost"
-Never give gather/land melee potential, instead let them use their "Expertise" to support if they are used in battle, such as fisherman would be able to assist in exploiting aquatic type mobs.
-Expand on Guild Marks, a system that should've allowed customization is nothing more then a few dinky abilities you can buy but they don't really seem necessary unless your gather/land in which they are mandatory to make things easier. Guild Mark abilities should see additions added every month even if it's a slightly modded ability or maybe a trait that enhances moves. Like let's say you can purchase traits for Iron Tempest that modify the ability, ranging from improved elemental damage, increased dmg radius, or even turning it into a concentrated attack against one for allowing it to do 2.5x dmg to the mob. At least then you would allow a big book of customization into the game.
-Mail and message system which should be a given in any MMO.
-Anima was a bad idea, while the idea was to allow casual to travel faster overall it does make other methods of traveling obsolete. There should've been a better tweak to allowing traveling maybe even something like, you have a 100 anima cap, based on the distance from the place of travel you can attune yourself to go to the area and pay guardian aspect to warp you there. So you can spend 5 anima to attune yourself in the same region as the town you are fixated in, if you want to go from LL to another region, based on the distance it would cost 10-15 anima, then you pay GA to actually teleport. While yes it would limit your choices of teleporting at the same time it could easily be changed on the fly and it would make things like airships and chocobos necessary.
-Ability Cost are poorly implemented in a concept where customization and choosing what abilities should be used should be a given. What's the point of saying here you have these abilities to work with, then give us enough points to attach all abilities from our class to our ability list. In terms of conjurer, the elemental from I-IV should've gone up in price from 3, to 5, 10 and then 15, at least then you would have to choose what elemental affinity you want to focus on, but as it stands now you are free to attach all the exploits to your class with no worry. It just kinda takes away the ability to truly build a unique character.
-True exploration while yes the game is beautiful, it still feels like a roller coaster track, there really isn't a true sense of exploration and with the way anima works it kinda kills it even more. While you can travel to an extent there really isn't a sense of wonder in the hope of finding hidden areas. Since there are none to speak of and there are even places that haven't even been fully development and end up being closed off for exploration which kills the sense of immersion even more

While there's probabaly a lot more to add to the list, from the above I would say based on what they are trying to change they aren't even looking at 95% of the problems listed above. While yes I haven't played the game in a while and each time I do I just can't get into it since I just don't see any true sense of customization or even adventure to it. Customization should not entitle to mixing abilities from different classes in order to expand your role. True customization would be given the option to pick and choose the abilities you wish to use from your current class because you are given a wide array of abilities to work with.

Anyways, while I"m sure most might take this as a rant, to me this is just my ideal "golden patch" that if SE managed to at least implement 75% of the above I could see myself playing it. It's just a pity that a game that pushed the sense of customization never really kept it's promised. I do hope that the patch with the dungeon does bring some life to the game, thankfully I do have a 25+ melee class so I'll be checking it out but that does also lead to another problem. Why do dungeons have to be set mainly yo melee classes. It would be possible to add gather/land if you add in little hidden mysteries that require the skill of said classes. For gatherers miners could find secret passages through the rock, botanist sense the ground for hidden stairway passages and fishermen could analyze any water for secrets hidden within it. With crafters, there could be concepts in which their specialty of synthesis allows them to unlock or go through certain areas of the dungeon the unlock secrets hidden to their class like new traits and abilities.

With this you could get a real sense of adventure as Crafters seek out help from melee classes to progress through dungeons in order to reach an area that they themselves would be unable to do because they lack the battle capabilities. To me this is what XIV should've been a true cooperation between the 3 disciplines not only working with one another to make gear and become stronger, but to assist others in dungeons and any other sort of exploration using their expertise to help discover new passages or support them in taking down ferocious foes.
#67 Jul 04 2011 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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not sure if this is considered double posting but noticing the default status I can't help but be confused by the lack of actually responses towards it lol. Maybe it's the white knights, but I guess asking for a decent amount of content and actual substance is to much lol.

Let's see if I can expand on the above, with auto-attack while they say they want to make the game different from XI they've added a lot of things that are just making it a copy to XI, and changing the core completely with the battle system could really hurt the game. If the end result of auto-battle and the whole battle change ends up falling flat then the team will have wasted a lot of resources on time that could have been spent working on the underdeveloped core.

If people were unhappy with expanding on the gathering mini-game I would be confused since I doubt anyone is really impressed by the simple monotonous task of doing the same exact thing from 1-50 with the only random factor are the latent traits that can go off at times. When the game came out I wanted to just focus purely on Botanist, thinking that when SE said they wanted the game to be a lively experience whether your melee or a gather/craft to be true. However when you look at what you do as gatherers it never really expands from the basic functions that start at level 1.

I could understand people wanting to default because I don't approve of anima since it takes away from exploration and makes mount and other forms of traveling useless. Techincally you only have to travel on the boat once and then never again. Not to mention they lowered the anima cost for towns and allowed you to specialize 3 areas making traveling even easier. Exploration and traveling just feels so constrained, since the environment is basically enclosed areas, it would be awesome if SE could actually make an open world where you could travel all over into places you see over the horizon. Best example I could give is wouldn't it be awesome if in XI in Misareaux Coast you could actually travel to the castle over the horizon in the zone.

If giving craft/gather support abilities to help in battle was a problem I kinda ponder why it would be, they would be abilities that would give on an edge in battle against certain mob types and make them useful without actually having to attack. I mean think about those stories where you have a person seeking out a warrior to take them through a mine to look for a precious ore. While the one requesting may have no melee ability he may have other skills that can assist you in battle and such. That's the kind of game I wish XIV could be, since there don't really seem to be any games like that. It would be cool to have a game where you don't have to fight, where the community can be built upon seeking help from others and gaining trust with other people rather then be a bunch of tight knit groups that look through Market wards to find items.

If people didn't like the comment about Guardians I would be confused, who wouldn't want a concept that allowed for an extra addition of customization lol. Same goes for Guild Marks, honestly do peopel thing GM are setup in a proper way to be used or are they just abilities that should have been given at x level lol. marks were set up in a way that should've allowed for a huge list of traits or abilities to be learned maybe even through different trainers, but everything is just so underdeveloped.

The main issue with this game is how everything was so underdeveloped when it was released, had things been properly developed then maybe these big changes wouldn't have to take place. Upon making a game mechanic concept you should consider how it will evolve over time, and with most of the game concepts introduced in XIV they have no evolution overtime. I still remain firm that a majority of the game concepts in the game are stagnant and aren't given any source of evolution over time.

On the issue with gatherers again, if you compare them to crafters, crafters were given abilities that could be used during crafting to assist in certain aspects of crafting. Crafters had 3 methods of crafting, standard, rapid and the quality one, so you actually had control over what you wanted to do. Then as you leveled up you gained active abilities you could actually use during crafting to assist you in making certain item types.

With gathering you have pick a spot, now cut in the right spot, aka pick a spot and play a hot and cold game lol. While I know they expanded in the sense that they have some concepts where you are given a clue as to what you may be able to find that's not what the gatherers needed. What they need are active abilities to give them control over how they want to gather rather then everything be way to random.

I'll retract the action points to an extent for mages however for melee they seem to have the ability to attune all their abilities to them if they wanted to. Customization should be having to choose between abilities, a melee shouldn't be able to equip all their skills and use them freely, it sort of takes away from the ability to be unique, and it just feels ilkea cop out to say well you can do it through other classes. It should be able to customize yourself within the class with the potential to expand with other class abilities.
"A lv 50's AP cap is 64 I believe at least from looking around that's the only info I could find. Below is a list of all the potential abilities a conjurer can equip, I stopped counting at the point where I reached 64. With mage classes they have the potential to expand within their own class but melee seem to lack that ability atm."
Purge==========3
Cure III=======2
Protect II=====2
Shell II=======2
Levinbolt II===3
1wNature=======3
Soughspeak II==3
Burst==========4
Flare==========4
Flood==========4
Freeze=========4
Quake==========4
Tornado========4
Stoneskin II===2
ShockSpikes II=3
Chainspell=====3
Raise==========2
Shock II=======3
Rasp II========3
Frost II=======3
Drown II=======3 64---
Choke II=======3
Burn II========3
Profundity II==3
Sleep==========3
Roaming Soul===3
Fast Cast======4
Silena=========2
POisona========2
Paralyna=======2
Resonance======2
Water II=======3
Thunder II=====3
Stone II=======3
Fire II========3
Blizzard II====3
Aero II========3
Purge==========3
SpiritBind=====3
Repose=========3
Trance Chant===3

"Below is what I believe to be all of the Marauder skills that they can learn, from what I see they can attach every ability to their skill set without having to choose, which to me seems kind of lame. It would be nice if their could be an expansion of abilities and traits that would allow two marauders that only leveled marauder to be unique. Seriously as the game stands now you are a marauder with pugilist skill or a pugilist with marauder skills. There really isn't a sense of uniqueness and even the development team admitted that there is a lack of class definition since there isn't much of a limit to what abilities you can use. Which wouldn't be bad but it would be nice if there were more "defining abilities like let's say one at level 5, 15, 25, 35, 45, 50, simply 6 define abilities would at least create a slight unique flavor to a marauder using pug abilities or a pig using marauder lol"
BloodbathII=======3
Defender II=======3
Storm's Path======5
Brutal Swing II===3
Foresight II======3
Disorient II======3
Fracture II=======3
Maim==============3
Barabric Yawp=====3
Brandish II=======3
Warmonger=========3
Intimidation======3
Skull Sunder II===3
Murderous Intent==3
Trunksplitter II==3
Iron Tempest======3
Enduring March====3 53----


Hm, was hoping the spoilers here would be the kind with a drop off box rather then blacking out the ability names. I can't think of anything else to bring up though it would've been nice to at least have comments expressing what people didn't like about the post rather then that post being the last post. I'm curious to discuss it for the most part I would like for this game to be fun and engaging but it just seems to be lacking so much, yet it has potential in things that are just underdeveloped lol. Anyways feel free to comment I"d like to hear others opinion on these last two post and again I"m sorry if this is considered a double post but it seems odd to actually edit a post and triple it's content size lol.
#68 Jul 04 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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It is hard to believe it has been almost a year since release...

If you had told me in September last year that in 9 months this is ALL the devs would have added/changed, I wouldn't have believed it.

I honestly though we would have the equavalent of "Rise of the Zilart" on the near horizon now - and that Ishgard would be open and bustling... chocobos would be running over the wide continent, new areas would be discovered...

Instead we have what? A handful of NMs and NM gear. A few new recipes? Some quests? Auto-attack by midsummer, maybe?

It is difficult to believe in a miracle patch when it has been so long with so few changes. We can't even hire more retainers yet. I mean seriously. As a cook - with stuff that only stacks to 12 - ingredients that are expensive and hard to find (because they are in low demand because cooking is nearly pointless) and most recipes needing 6-8 ingredients... I might actually play occasionally if I could hire an extra couple of retainers.

Right now my choices are NPC stuff that I probably won't be able to find on the market when I need it- or don't cook.

So I don't log in to cook.

I mean, that is something SO SIMPLE. Just give me the inventory space I need to enjoy the game - like you promised LAST NOVEMBER.

So yeah I don't believe in a golden patch.
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#69 Jul 04 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Airget wrote:


Let's see if I can expand on the above, with auto-attack while they say they want to make the game different from XI they've added a lot of things that are just making it a copy to XI, and changing the core completely with the battle system could really hurt the game. If the end result of auto-battle and the whole battle change ends up falling flat then the team will have wasted a lot of resources on time that could have been spent working on the underdeveloped core.

If people were unhappy with expanding on the gathering mini-game I would be confused since I doubt anyone is really impressed by the simple monotonous task of doing the same exact thing from 1-50 with the only random factor are the latent traits that can go off at times. When the game came out I wanted to just focus purely on Botanist, thinking that when SE said they wanted the game to be a lively experience whether your melee or a gather/craft to be true. However when you look at what you do as gatherers it never really expands from the basic functions that start at level 1.




I agree with you completely here - on both points - DoL are the most unloved classes in the game. It is like SE suddenly realized - after promising to make DoL full classes "WAIT! PEOPLE COULD BECOME RICH BY BEING DOL! WE NEED TO MAKE THEM SUCK!" Thus the boring mini games - the crappy leves (that share a timer with battle leves) - the lack of leve selection (there are only two leves. TWO. Same two leves in every location for every DOL job, with nothing changed but the name of the HQ item)... and thus double fatigue (which was also put in sneakily without even telling the playerbase).

So some poor fool makes a miner character - no where on the character select screen does it say "WAIT THIS JOB SUCKS DON'T START AS A MINER" and then progresses at half the rate - gets less than half the gil of someone who starts as a battle job after doing their first round of leves...

Meh.

I know cause I started two new chars - one a miner, one an archer. Archer got to like level 11 just on leves from the first camp - make like 7K gil. (and got a scepter, and a pair of knuckles)

My miner got to level 7 on leves from the first camp and after I sold everything I mined up had 2.1K and I found a goldsmith hammer in chest.

Anyway on the auto-attack - when they first announced THAT was what they were spending there time on is when I quit and went back to XI. It was at that moment that I realized they were flailing around in the dark. They didn't have the slightest clue about what was actually cool and unique about their battle system - and instead of adding content - new continents, new classes, new quests and missions and group activities - they were going to spend all their development resources trying to fix something that wasn't really broken in the first place.

And if auto-attack sucks - what then? They will have spent 4 months piddling around with mechanics when there is nothing to do in the game.

I hope auto-attack is the miracle they seem to think it is. I am skeptical.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#70 Jul 04 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for the response but ya that's my major concern with auto-battle it doesn't really fix the true problems behind XIV and that's how underdeveloped everything appears.
XIV Abilities in a nutshell

I made this quick graph to attempt to illustrate how I see the XIV "class" system, I only included melee and mage since if I"m correct you are unable to actually attach any abilities or traits from land/hand to melee/mage. Basically with XIV all I see is, you have abilities with 7 classes and you can mix and match them except for maybe 2-3 unique abilities for that class. Then you have Guild marks which don't really have a wide range of abilities to offer and don't add much flavor to customization.

Now I was trying out this f2p game for fun since it mentioned the ability to change classes on the fly, it kind of made me think of XIV in a sense. Granted it does play like a wow clone for the most part however there is a light that shines through the games ability concept that I wish XIV had developed. The game in question is Eden Eternal.
Eden Eternal

Basically upon character creation just like in XIV you are given the choice of a trait/guardian. Just like how XIV is now you can't change your guardian/trait once you choose it however unlike XIV the trait you choose at the start does effect your character's starting stats. Something as simple as this is a concept I wish SE had added on day 1 for guardian's. It would've at least made them something that advanced the concept of customization rather then being flavor text.

At the start of the game you are able to choose Defense or Magic DPS. Upon choosing you become either a Warrior or Magician.

This game also has two leveling concepts, your main level and your class level, your class level can't go above your main level so you can't have 10/12 it'll only go up to 10/10. When you change classes you aren't gimped but each class can only wear a certain armor type cloth/light/heavy armors. However now this is a big deal to some but when you change classes your ability keys are unique for each class so you don't have to change back and forth abilities upon adding abilities, you also have specific slots for cloth/light/heavy so you don't have to change into your gear upon changing to a class that uses a different armor type. Unless XIV has changed recently I know they allowed you to keep abilities on that are unusable but I don't think they went as far as to have unique bars for each class so when you change your 1-0 is different from each class without having to take the time to change it.

Now in this game each class type has 3 classes to go with it, all classes can go to 60 and each class offers a unique aspect. To be blunt as possible about it the game works like this.

Each class has common skills, which are skills the classes shared within the archetype. Then the specific classes each learn class skills and have class trees that are unique to that class and only take effect for that class. Each level you obtain a knowledge point that you add to the skill tree to advance your customization.
Upon reaching class 10 you obtain a Certificate which is a unique concept that you can equip to any class allowing you to make use of traits from other classes. It's also possible to obtain additional effects if you attach certain certificate combinations together. At most you can have I believe 8 certificates by level 60.
Classes obtain a certificate every 10 levels so each class has 6 certificates however it does work like the first 3 certificates are tier 1's and the other 3 are tier 2's of the ones you already have though, I do believe it's possible to attach 1 and 2 together.

Overall you have 15 classes with 6 certificates each for a total of 90 certificates. With 8 certificates slots that leaves a wide range of variables to mix and match and determine what additional effects you can get for your class.

Now to compare the two it's basically
XIV:
:Disciplines Magic/Melee
-6 melee
-2 magic
:Variables
-abilities from other classes
-Guild Marks
-Class specific abilities

To me that's all I see ability wise now with Eden Eternal I see this
Eden Eternal:
:Player:
:Heroic Trait
-8 possibilities
:Classes
-5 archetypes
--3 classes
:Classes
-Specific to Archetype
--Common Skill
-Specific to class
--Class Skills (Unique Skill tree per class)
-Usable by any archetype
--Certificates (90 certificates with 8 slots available)


If XIV had started out with something like this I think more people would play, one of the major reasons I was turned off by the same was because I didn't really feel the sense of customization. There weren't enough options to be unique and in the end you really didn't have to many options to actually make yourself stand out.

What really bums me out about this post is that if you look at the amount of information written, I had to spend more time explaining the ability system in Eden Eternal then i did with XIV. While sure XIV has ability points to use to attach abilities and Eden Eternal you're free to use all abilities attached to the class it doesn't evade the point that XIV just lacks true customization substance.

The simple enough fix would be this
-Create Job traits that are more potent on main class but can be used n other classes
--EX. Iron Tempest trait that improves wind damage by 10% for marauder but only 5% if you aren't a marauder
-Expand land/hand so that you can actually obtain traits or even abilities that can be used by melee/mage. (If a player chooses to level a land/hand but also wants to melee they should have the option to attach useful abilities from land/hand that they learned through their travels to enhance their battle potency)
--EX a Botanist uses a sickle and an axe for their trade. A simple enough trait could be "Blade Care" -Lowers durability lost from using other arms
--EX 2. A Miner uses muscles and strength to break rocks and find ores so they should have a traits like "Strong Armed" which increases the player's STR and ATT
--EX 3. A Fishermman knows a lot about sealife so through their travels they should obtain a trait like "Fish exploitation" which increases all damage dealt to aquatic type mobs by 5%

Off the top of my head I can't think of any abilities for crafting but there is the ability to pull it off.

But ya, it's just when I saw the system for Eden Eternal I was kind of shocked with how they created a simple yet engaging way to work a proper class system. If SE developers took the time to analyze what Eden Eternal did right I would be positive that they would be able to enhance the armory system to a concept that allowed a true sense of customization and uniqueness.

Also by no means is this an endorsement for another MMO, this is just a simple comparison from a similarity I saw through another game. On a final note, while SE is planning on having "jobs" for their classes I feel like that will fall flat fast. To me I don't understand the points of having 1 job per class to start it off, it doesn't really add any sense of customization and feels more like Ragnorak Online where you enter the next class tier rather then a sub class to enhance your class.

Though I do see a potential in the "job system" at the same time I don't think the execution is right. If they wanted to do it properly for Mage/Melee I would've done this
Gladiator===Paladin/Fencer Defense/Offense
Marauder====Berserker/Warrior Offense/Defense
Lancer======Dragon Knight/Dragoon Defense/Hate Control
Archer======Ranger/Sniper Enfeebling/Crit Rate up
Pugilist====Monk/Martial Artist Defensive magical/Offensive physical
Conjurer====x mage "specific magic focus allowing increased potency of one magic type but decreasing other elemnets"
Thaumaturge=Curser/Enlightened Dark based/Light based potency

I think the above would be a proper introduction of classes as it stands now when I see how they are implementing it, it's as if they have no idea how they wish to expand it, if the idea was thought out clearly they would have created a concept in which they had created more job options, dual job options, triple job options and such like let's say a Red Mage is the love child of obtaining the proper Conjurer/Thaumaturge enfeeble traits along with the skill of a Gladiators Sword.

I am interested in seeing the system once it's released however I don't see much uniqueness coming from it and while some may say because it's just starting the system I would respond that most everything in XIV feels like an unfinished project where they would just be better off focusing on one concept at a time and fully developing it rather then making a bare concept and releasing it to the masses. If they wanted to do that they should create a test server to have us test the concepts rather then release it as a finalized content. And yes I do know that they do have a test server but the problem right now is while they don't want to do a wipe and try and make the game work it would be a smarter move to create a test server to actually test things out rather then treating the whole community like guinea pigs.

One thing that I think would've worked better in the long run is if they had created like 3 specific servers to test out different concepts to see what works best in each light. In terms of auto-battle they could of had one test server without the change, another test server conceptualizing the idea of enhancing the idea of stamina and it's uses and another server testing auto-battle. Along with those test they could've centered certain areas to test out dungeon concepts, materia concept and everything at it's bare bones so people could get a feel of how it works rather then releasing it to the masses.

Look I do hope that this game can succeed and become as fun as XI, since I really do enjoy playing that game but it just seems like everything that's been done so far hasn't really added anything to the game that would bring the same joy as XI.

Edited, Jul 4th 2011 6:11pm by Airget
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