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Why it won't work no matter whatFollow

#102 Jun 15 2011 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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XIV seems to be leaning towards an XI-2 in some ways now. My opinion is.
Is this game worth upgrading to a powerful pc spec to experience a standard auto attack and job system sort of similar to XI which I played 7 years. Does it have loads of content on par with modern mmos? Things such as PvP, raids, dynamic events, a flexible grouping system, player driven content, etc.
No and no.. I was more excited when the game had a unique experience going for it. However, with a high degree of polish to every aspect whether it is original or not.
I wanted this game to be mostly themepark but offer a higher degree of player driven content over XI. But for the themepark elements to be even higher quality than XI. Fully Voiced main story and class quest, and just basically awash with story and lore in dungeons and many exciting unique areas to explore.

As you can see I am anti auto attack. I don't agree that because it's an mmo it has to have very basic and overly automated systems. If the enemies are not balanced to be unique and difficult. It doesn't matter what battle system you roll with, the experience will become redundant. I actually would have preferred the alpha system with it's power/acc/charge gauge(focus on precision and timing)but polished over the stamina system(non automated but redundant). But I even prefer the stamina system over auto attack(automated). Preference aside, this game could have the perfect battle system, but if there ain't crap to do even that battle system wouldn't keep you playing.

My experience in XI has been sweet. But due to the strict jobs system, highly intended timesinks, poor tutorials, redundant processes, etc. The game never had a chance to stay in the millions sub base for long durations.Chances are if you not the guy who organizes your own raids, has many friends, or a good ls. Most of your time was spent soloing for poor xp, standing around looking for fun. Instead of actually having fun.

In Abyssea if you have one completely free day and form your own party or ls/friend let you leech. You can go from 30-90 in about 8 hours. I have no problem with fast xp,(But imo should at least take a casual 2-4 weeks to make journey memorable)my problem with abyssea is that it fawks with immersion and progression. Sure we still have the option to party outside abyssea, but the rate of leveling is infinitely slower. Imo they should have capped aby at 75 but increased the xp rate by another 150%. The purpose of an rpg is to explore and progress in stages, explore new areas with people and it doesn't feel right to have the option to max in one day afk. It does notorious monster how it should be done though, less stand around more action. But this is just my opinion and now I'll stop cause post became too long.
#103 Jun 15 2011 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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liinko wrote:
I'm sure at some point it will be as epic as FFXI, and hope to see u in game at that time even if its a year from now^^

How can you be sure of that? XI had a strong foundation and a vision that appealed to a lot of people. XIV has neither, and is wholly forgettable. XI certainly wasn't perfect, but its flaws were contained within something that people loved.. XIV so far is a mess of poor ideas and backtracking to try to appease the masses. "They want quests, Yoshi!" "OK, quests!"

To respond more to the OP, I'm someone who was a lock to play this game in some kind of capacity for years.. With XI in the past, and no other MMO fitting my taste, it's XIV or bust. I think I had played virtually every single day since open beta until about 3 weeks ago, when I finally had it, and haven't logged in since. If I hadn't met a nice LS, it would be safe to say I would never play again.. I just don't care anymore, about whatever "improvements" are being worked on. An apathetic playerbase has to be SE's worst fear, but it's spread like a plague.

People often talk about going to other games, but I've been having more fun playing nothing than I had playing FFXIV - life is just too short to blow so many hours on something that leaves you with this dark cloud over your head.
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#104 Jun 15 2011 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
XIV is STILL cramming systems that don't work down everyone's throats and no one has ever really explained why.


I marveled at this too.

I could understand the hesitation at first. I think Tanaka was caught with his pants down on this one and couldn't believe it was bombing as bad as it did. And with the re-org that ensued, they were going to proceed carefully on what to fix next.

I think the issue is, there's just so much to fix. You've seen Yoshida's list. If it were on a scroll you'd have to let it roll across the room. They may even want to rid themselves of Market Wards, but it sorta-kinda works, so putting a fresh coat of paint on it is better than a rebuild if they have so many bigger things to rebuild like the whole combat system.

Their decision to gut the game while letting players play free seemed like a good idea at the time, but now that I look back on it, I'm not so sure. I think it's getting in the way of a complete revamp, because anything they do has to be done with tiptoeing around players' current efforts to level up.

Taking it offline with a complete character wipe and a full refund might have let them make the necessary drastic changes required in a logical, and faster recovery. They could have come up with completely new races, a whole new market system, a totally different grind, a non-cut-and-paste world, whatever they wanted and needed to do.

And when it came out again, sure there'd be some trepidation, but also the hope that maybe they actually got it right this time, instead of being lost in the slow, agonizing transformation we're currently witnessing.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 10:06pm by ForceOfMeh
#105 Jun 15 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
Torrence wrote:
XIV is STILL cramming systems that don't work down everyone's throats and no one has ever really explained why.


I marveled at this too.

I could understand the hesitation at first. I think Tanaka was caught with his pants down on this one and couldn't believe it was bombing as bad as it did. And with the re-org that ensued, they were going to proceed carefully on what to fix next.

I think the issue is, there's just so much to fix. You've seen Yoshida's list. If it were on a scroll you'd have to let it roll across the room. They may even want to rid themselves of Market Wards, but it sorta-kinda works, so putting a fresh coat of paint on it is better than a rebuild if they have so many bigger things to rebuild like the whole combat system.

Their decision to gut the game while letting players play free seemed like a good idea at the time, but now that I look back on it, I'm not so sure. I think it's getting in the way of a complete revamp, because anything they do has to be done with tiptoeing around players' current efforts to level up.

Taking it offline with a complete character wipe and a full refund might have let them make the necessary drastic changes required in a logical, and faster recovery. They could have come up with completely new races, a whole new market system, a totally different grind, a non-cut-and-paste world, whatever they wanted and needed to do.

And when it came out again, sure there'd be some trepidation, but also the hope that maybe they actually got it right this time, instead of being lost in the slow, agonizing transformation we're currently witnessing.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 10:06pm by ForceOfMeh


I agree with you. I thought shutting the game down for a while and probably giving the pioneers (like us) a unique item to distinguish us from the rest that joined later would give the developers enough quiet time to continue to work on the game.

But then again there are merits to what they are doing now at the moment: we are there to beta test their ideas and thus it allows them to make sure each small step they are taking is on the whole, acceptable to the game community before they take the next small step. It's much slower, but each small step gives them the confidence to tackle something bigger. Remember, Yoshi isn't Tanaka; he is still relatively new and hasn't had past experience in directing the developments of such a large game. Any encouragements we can give him will definitely give him the necessary boost to his confidence.

I'm not touting the nice-boy whiteknight approach, but we need to realise that as much as the game has already gone commercial, we are still really just a group of alpha or beta testers. Good suggestions help the developers and the game; doomsday cries don't. So lets keep the good suggestions rolling! Have a good day.
#106 Jun 16 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The only thing that matters to me is that there is enough people for a full server when the game is good enough so that I can enjoy the game.

Good luck finding a developer willing to fund and develop for a 1-server game.
#107 Jun 16 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Nakaru wrote:
I'm not touting the nice-boy whiteknight approach, but we need to realise that as much as the game has already gone commercial, we are still really just a group of alpha or beta testers. Good suggestions help the developers and the game; doomsday cries don't. So lets keep the good suggestions rolling! Have a good day.


Wise men don't need suggestions and fools won't take them.

They're still implementing(now and in the future) things that I remember posting and reading about way back in alpha testing over a year ago. My suggestions stopped flowing when I realized no one was listening. If I were able to make a suggestion that I knew would be heard by SE it would be this:

Always make eye contact with someone when you are eating a banana.
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#108 Jun 16 2011 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
The only thing that matters to me is that there is enough people for a full server when the game is good enough so that I can enjoy the game.

Good luck finding a developer willing to fund and develop for a 1-server game.


They're called CCP and they made EvE-Online.
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#109 Jun 16 2011 at 5:15 AM Rating: Default
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ffIV would benefit from a graphics update in the future, the outside terrain is so bat *** bland it drives everyone nuts. Remember that the staff was fired and all, this is why stuff is taking so long. They have to think from the ground up, that was a hard task they were given.
#110 Jun 16 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Nakaru wrote:
But then again there are merits to what they are doing now at the moment: we are there to beta test their ideas and thus it allows them to make sure each small step they are taking is on the whole, acceptable to the game community before they take the next small step. It's much slower, but each small step gives them the confidence to tackle something bigger. Remember, Yoshi isn't Tanaka; he is still relatively new and hasn't had past experience in directing the developments of such a large game. Any encouragements we can give him will definitely give him the necessary boost to his confidence.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. As I recall, FFXIV's beta testers were pretty much all saying "Told ya, so! But you didn't listen," when the game flopped. So, it made sense to open channels to listen to the fans and salvage what community was left. Keeping the game open and adding official forums were meant to both keep communication open and have some hardcore players around who could form the foundation for when people came back to try again.

But, then I look at something like APB which went down out of bankruptcy. Another group of developers is bringing it back, but while they do so, they have no hindrance in revamping the somewhat poor gameplay that greeted you after you were done with the top notch character creator. So, in effect, we really have a real world experiment to look at where we can see which approach works better.
#112 Jun 16 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Victrola wrote:
I can see what you are saying Caia, but I stopped playing FF around 7 and 8, with a lot of 11 thrown in for it's multitude of strange appeals and exotic social dynamics. SE didn't really create FFXI imo, they just kept throwing code at the game and tweaking stuff until somehow it magically worked to develop different aspects that were fun for a lot of users.


Um - what are you talking about? How did SE "not create" FFXI? Everything about it fairly SCREAMS Final Fantasy. Everything in it you can find in earlier games in some form - it's an ongoing dialogue spanning two decades that probably can only be truly appreciated by those of us old enough to have lived through them. XI isn't the one who has to defend its title as a Final Fantasy game.

Where is Cid in XIV? Where are our beloved chocobos? Where are our Dragoons, our Dark Knights, our Paladins? Where's our White and Black Mages? Reds? Where's our moogles? Gosh, where are freaking Samurais which we all know are SE beloved? For that matter - who is even the main antagonist in this game?

Where is just about everything that has made a Final Fantasy game to date, a Final Fantasy game?

Buried in notes labeled horse-birds and thrown out in favor of forgettable systems such as the armory and the Market Wards.

No, if any game has to defend whether or not it's a Final Fantasy game it's XIV. XI was a Final Fantasy - this is the mish mash of random code.
#114 Jun 16 2011 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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#118 Jun 16 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Victrola wrote:
yp<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
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Oh, no... it's only a matter of time until he starts posting in binary.

10100010111010100010110101010010111000101011100101001, BTW.
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#119 Jun 16 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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TempLoop wrote:
i am skeptical only because of their lack to communicate. i don't play atm. i've been trying to play other games but can't really get into them because well... i just like the ff atmosphere.


If you like the Final Fantasy atmosphere come back to XI. The game is more fun than I ever found it before.

Edited, Jun 16th 2011 5:44pm by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#120 Jun 16 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:


In Abyssea if you have one completely free day and form your own party or ls/friend let you leech. You can go from 30-90 in about 8 hours. I have no problem with fast xp,(But imo should at least take a casual 2-4 weeks to make journey memorable)my problem with abyssea is that it fawks with immersion and progression. Sure we still have the option to party outside abyssea, but the rate of leveling is infinitely slower. Imo they should have capped aby at 75 but increased the xp rate by another 150%. The purpose of an rpg is to explore and progress in stages, explore new areas with people and it doesn't feel right to have the option to max in one day afk. It does notorious monster how it should be done though, less stand around more action. But this is just my opinion and now I'll stop cause post became too long.


Really, Abyssea bashing?

I love Abyssea. I also love keyers! I can't afford to spend my cruor on so many keys to give experience points, loot and cruor - also when you are busy smacking stuff and healing players you don't have enough time to examine chests and open them up, and give people a head's up to take their temp items before another load comes.

It took me 4 months of semi-casual (with some hardcore weekends/holidays) to get to 90BST/45WHM. Not 8 or 10 hours. Someone who is leveling their 10th job might be able to take it from 30-90 in 8 hours using all their cruor - but then they will spend countless hours leveling skills and getting equipment for the job.

I am so glad SE has been cutting into the exp grind. Who wants to spend days slowly crawling from one level to the next? Not me.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#121 Jun 17 2011 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was thinking of making a Victrola MMO.

Opinions?
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#122 Jun 17 2011 at 1:01 AM Rating: Default
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Oh I am not abyssea bashing Olo. For experience points post 75 it does it's job and does it well. After 3-4 to 75 cap. You have seen the song and dance, and the only difference between each job is 5 af quests and skills. Unlock job, 50-60 levels of grind, af quests, 25-40 levels of grind depending on when you want to pursue more af armor.
Which is why I dont get why people bash on class quests in XIV, sure af quests havent been implemented yet but at least you get some class story every 5-10 levels and not every 25-50. When I was watching beta, my impression was that XIV was going to have 100% unique story for each class similar to what TOR is doing. So levling each class would not feel like a grind. Hopefull they continue creating unique class story for each class and fill in the dead spots.
In XI most of the story is world arc, so it doesn't feel so new when you see the same story for most of every of the 20 available jobs after that.
Cruor is not hard to get, you can make a cruor party and make 100k an hour, only cost about 300k cruor to get from 30-90 if you key it. So that 11 hours to get from 30-90 if you want to be specific. And no matter how casual you are, if you can't free up one day for 8hrs out of 365 days. Maybe you are the president? :p

Sadly most will not even buy gear before level 75 if they leeched or keyed their way to that level. Sometimes of if you join a pickup party, there will be like five level 90s and the rest lvl 30-70. And some people form parties to afk and all they do is seek new reps when party is going thin. I wasn't suggesting that it should take forever to hit cap. I was suggesting that SE increase xp by 150% or even 250% outside abyssea and cap abyssea at lvl 70 or 75. So new players or even old players get to experience the game it was meant to be. Rpg are about exploring new areas, teaming up and defeating foes as you become stronger. If you can bypass that whole journey in abyssea, the stages of progression become null and un rpg like. If it is possible to hit cap on a second job in 8-11 hours afk. Why even have the levels to begin with, get what I am saying?
Everything else about abyssea is golden, more action, easy grouping, less standing around looking for fun. It did make most pre abyssea gear obsolete, but I don't mind so much. And they need to add a few more really difficult encounters. Anyways the materia system in XIV looks like a good solution to remedy gear obsoletion later down the road for XIV.
#123 Jun 17 2011 at 1:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
The only thing that matters to me is that there is enough people for a full server when the game is good enough so that I can enjoy the game.

Good luck finding a developer willing to fund and develop for a 1-server game.


They're called CCP and they made EvE-Online.

Technically, that's not correct. http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/09/28/eve-evolved-eve-onlines-server-model/
Eve uses a cluster of servers with more than enough players to warrant continuous development.
You missed my point on purpose to sound witty?
#124 Jun 17 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Olorinus wrote:

Really, Abyssea bashing?

I love Abyssea.


Hahaha! I recall trying to push you back into FFXI, so I'm glad you ended up liking it.

Here's the strange twist. FFXI's Abyssea actually succeeds in being both casual and hardcore at the same, the very thing FFXIV tried to be (and pretty much failed at). Even though Aby has been out longer than FFXIV, there's a lot you can do casually and/or solo, but it's also not hard to get into group play (always shouting in Port Jeuno for pick-up groups), and there are even big enough challenges for linkshells to have large group events over.

The experience is night and day with what's going on in FFXIV right now.
#125 Jun 17 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Technically, that's not correct. http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/09/28/eve-evolved-eve-onlines-server-model/
Eve uses a cluster of servers with more than enough players to warrant continuous development.
You missed my point on purpose to sound witty?


Technically, it is correct provided that the definition of server = world, which, in this context, was the intended meaning.

I'm not really sure why you'd try to take offense to that and create this obfuscation, but who am I to judge?

Edited, Jun 17th 2011 9:08pm by ForceOfMeh
#126 Jun 17 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
I was thinking of making a Victrola MMO.

Opinions?


yes, please.


victrola is my all time favorite zam poster ever in the history of all time. i thought he was gone. rejoice.
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#127 Jun 18 2011 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Caia wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
The only thing that matters to me is that there is enough people for a full server when the game is good enough so that I can enjoy the game.

Good luck finding a developer willing to fund and develop for a 1-server game.


They're called CCP and they made EvE-Online.

Technically, that's not correct. http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/09/28/eve-evolved-eve-onlines-server-model/
Eve uses a cluster of servers with more than enough players to warrant continuous development.
You missed my point on purpose to sound witty?


Pedantic much?
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Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#128 Jun 19 2011 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I really wonder why the OP starts a thread like this. Seriously ForceofMeh, can you shine some light on this? What is it that you want to accomplish?

Do people have to lose all hope? Are you trying to prevent them from making a huge mistake by clinging on to a game? Does the thought of people being disappointed over a patch make you lose sleep at night? What is it what you are trying to achieve?

I can understand threads in where people express their hope. Hope gives people a reason to begin or continue with something. Hope is something positive that people want to share with others. I can also understand that one reacts in a negative way when people are overly excited about things simply because you disagree. But starting a thread in where you explain your very negative expectations... what's the point in sharing those when in a new thread when there are plenty of threads in where you can explain them as well and actually...all you have to do is uninstall the game and stop paying attention to it?

And really, I recognize about 75% of your argument. But I also recognize it as the attitude of a person who claims that his team will never ever win the play-offs...only so he can be happy when they do win it or so he can say "I told you so" when they indeed do not. A person like that is a winner no matter what.

So please...tell me, what is your goal?

As for me, although this game has disappointed me and I never really felt like playing it for months now, I still cannot wait till the patch arrives. Cause you never know. The game could still pick up from there. Why plan a funeral if the body isn't dead yet?
#129 Jun 19 2011 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Woofdram wrote:
I really wonder why the OP starts a thread like this. Seriously ForceofMeh, can you shine some light on this? What is it that you want to accomplish?


Half the time I'm serious and reasonable and the other half I'm self-destructing. I'm basically one of these guys:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110313093660/finalfantasy/images/7/70/FFVIII-Bomb.png

But today, I'll be serious.

I've seen different types of FFXIV players. Some respond well to disparaging remarks such as the ones I've made more than likely out of frustration that they feel they deserved a better game than the one they've got. It doesn't mean they're necessarily quitting or don't support the game on some level, it's just difficult to express dissatisfaction without resorting to extremes.

There's another group of FFXIV players who like to remain optimistic even in the face of the overwhelming odds against them. Hopefully their perseverance will be rewarded for their continued support of the game. Without them, SE is far more likely to pull the plug and cut their losses.

But even though it runs contrary to their message, they shouldn't attack the haters who play FFXIV outright. In reality they are different sides of the same coin and they both serve to give the game a chance.

Putting up a front of total satisfaction with a game that isn't satisfying will only give SE a false impression that the game is better that it is, or worse, that their players are easily satisfied and don't require a lot of effort to please. Likewise, getting everyone to quit and give up hope is equally destructive since SE won't see the necessary support to continue the project.

Without a balance of both, there's no hope.

(Look at me, talking about hope in a thread I've titled "Why it won't work no matter what")

Edited, Jun 19th 2011 6:24am by ForceOfMeh
#130 Jun 19 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
I've seen different types of FFXIV players. Some respond well to disparaging remarks such as the ones I've made more than likely out of frustration that they feel they deserved a better game than the one they've got. It doesn't mean they're necessarily quitting or don't support the game on some level, it's just difficult to express dissatisfaction without resorting to extremes.

There's another group of FFXIV players who like to remain optimistic even in the face of the overwhelming odds against them. Hopefully their perseverance will be rewarded for their continued support of the game. Without them, SE is far more likely to pull the plug and cut their losses.

But even though it runs contrary to their message, they shouldn't attack the haters who play FFXIV outright. In reality they are different sides of the same coin and they both serve to give the game a chance.

Putting up a front of total satisfaction with a game that isn't satisfying will only give SE a false impression that the game is better that it is, or worse, that their players are easily satisfied and don't require a lot of effort to please. Likewise, getting everyone to quit and give up hope is equally destructive since SE won't see the necessary support to continue the project.

Without a balance of both, there's no hope.

(Look at me, talking about hope in a thread I've titled "Why it won't work no matter what")


That's a good explanation.

I just think that you're overdoing it. The few White Knights this game has left are not helpful but posts like yours when the patch hasn't come out yet is not helpful either. That patch will come out, no matter what. Your opening post doesn't contain new insights and therefore I don't think it will make SE work any harder or put more money it it than they are already doing. It just contributes to an already negative atmosphere that is surrounding the game. So far for balance.

This is not an attack btw, just an opinion. And thanks for your serious answer.

#131 Jun 19 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Woofdram wrote:
That's a good explanation.

I just think that you're overdoing it. The few White Knights this game has left are not helpful but posts like yours when the patch hasn't come out yet is not helpful either. That patch will come out, no matter what. Your opening post doesn't contain new insights and therefore I don't think it will make SE work any harder or put more money it it than they are already doing. It just contributes to an already negative atmosphere that is surrounding the game. So far for balance.

This is not an attack btw, just an opinion. And thanks for your serious answer.



You're welcome, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

To be honest, I would be shocked if in a single patch, the whole game will be transformed into something satisfying. I understand the desire, the dream, for such a patch, since it would instantly right all the wrong with this gaming experience, but I just don't think it works like that. This will be a labor of love for the developers who are going to have to work at this over time. The 1.18 patch is the first real step, one of many, and not the last.

I think deep down, most people understand that.
#132 Jun 20 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
I disagree with the premise ForceOfMeh, but in practice you may be absolutely right. I have always found that players love fun games, and will find them, sometimes years after their release if the fun is there.

Because of this there are two factors that will decide the fate of FFXIV. The most important is:

1.) Can SE make FFXIV fun?

I would have said, yes, absolutely, but now have to admit that it's questionable, if not downright unlikely.

But your post, if I understand correctly, is stating that no matter how fun FFXIV becomes, some players are never going to return. And I'm afraid you are correct. It's more likely that FFXIV would someday attract new players (that were not overly excited and then confused and disappointed) then it is that FFXIV will regain the enthusiam of players at it's launch. So the secondary question is:

2.) Can a fully redesigned and fun FFXIV overcome a failed launch and become succesful?

I would have said, yes, absolutely, but now have to admit that it's questionable, if not downright unlikely.


#133 Jun 20 2011 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
I disagree with the premise ForceOfMeh, but in practice you may be absolutely right. I have always found that players love fun games, and will find them, sometimes years after their release if the fun is there.

Because of this there are two factors that will decide the fate of FFXIV. The most important is:

1.) Can SE make FFXIV fun?

I would have said, yes, absolutely, but now have to admit that it's questionable, if not downright unlikely.

But your post, if I understand correctly, is stating that no matter how fun FFXIV becomes, some players are never going to return. And I'm afraid you are correct. It's more likely that FFXIV would someday attract new players (that were not overly excited and then confused and disappointed) then it is that FFXIV will regain the enthusiam of players at it's launch. So the secondary question is:

2.) Can a fully redesigned and fun FFXIV overcome a failed launch and become succesful?

I would have said, yes, absolutely, but now have to admit that it's questionable, if not downright unlikely.


I think you hit the nail on the head with the issues that need to be dealt with here. I'll respond to the first because its easier, will they be able to overcome, Yes absolutely so long as the entry cost is low. Make the game cheaper, reduce the grind every patch, and if a game is fun they will play. City of heros did it, FFXI did it, WOW did it twice, its very possible. People are only reluctant to start a new MMO when they feel they'll be years behind, if you give them the chance to catch up to the same plateau the bulk of people are on, they will sign on.

The second of can SE make the game fun, is pretty tough though. fun is subjective and because of this, the game can't be fixed like a math problem. I see people saying if they add X Y and Z the game will be amazing, and that may be for them, but its not a universal thing. Just about everything we have so far needs some level of improvement, but also those improvements need to mesh together in a way that creates a fun experience. This is where I think SE will eventually fail so to speak, I think that its just so unlikely that a company who produced a game at the level they did, is capable of improving it to the way it needs to be, and getting everything right. We're basically talking about redesigning a game running to beat out its competitors who are years ahead of them in terms of (potentially) good development.
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#134 Jun 20 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Make the game cheaper, reduce the grind every patch, and if a game is fun they will play. City of heros did it, FFXI did it, WOW did it twice, its very possible. People are only reluctant to start a new MMO when they feel they'll be years behind, if you give them the chance to catch up to the same plateau the bulk of people are on, they will sign on.


At the moment it's $15 with no monthly fee. The cheapest game I know of aside from F2P games which in my opinion is where this game is headed.

Also, 'the bulk of people' is not really a concern to people who would just be starting XIV for several reasons. There are maybe 100k people who play the game consistently now? Less? Even if they left the grind as is, if this game has any kind of longevity at all, people will catch up. NA and EU players were behind JP players when FFXI started, but if you look at the top players in terms of achievement, it's overwhelming how few JP players rank at the top. People will login if they enjoy the game regardless of how many people have how much more gear or content completed.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#135 Jun 20 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Make the game cheaper, reduce the grind every patch, and if a game is fun they will play. City of heros did it, FFXI did it, WOW did it twice, its very possible. People are only reluctant to start a new MMO when they feel they'll be years behind, if you give them the chance to catch up to the same plateau the bulk of people are on, they will sign on.


At the moment it's $15 with no monthly fee. The cheapest game I know of aside from F2P games which in my opinion is where this game is headed.

Also, 'the bulk of people' is not really a concern to people who would just be starting XIV for several reasons. There are maybe 100k people who play the game consistently now? Less? Even if they left the grind as is, if this game has any kind of longevity at all, people will catch up. NA and EU players were behind JP players when FFXI started, but if you look at the top players in terms of achievement, it's overwhelming how few JP players rank at the top. People will login if they enjoy the game regardless of how many people have how much more gear or content completed.


From what people are saying its more like 30-40k players max. Maybe as low as 20k.
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#136 Jun 20 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
But your post, if I understand correctly, is stating that no matter how fun FFXIV becomes, some players are never going to return. And I'm afraid you are correct. It's more likely that FFXIV would someday attract new players (that were not overly excited and then confused and disappointed) then it is that FFXIV will regain the enthusiam of players at it's launch.


I've seen MMOs that started off better than FFXIV did, but still had a relatively lousy launch, and never really recovered from it. Yoshida had the point that they don't recover because the money dries up, and that may be partly right.

However, I think it glosses over the crucial aspect that the first impression makes all the difference. Every successful subscription-based MMO started off with great reviews, well before they hit their peak subscription levels. And every MMO that got the review, "this needs more work," pretty much ended up in the dust bin of history.

When it works, it works; it builds momentum and doesn't look back. Right now FFXIV is free to play and it's still losing players. So even after all this time, it's still going in the wrong direction. Throwing lots of money at it might do something to save it; I can't be sure. This seems like new ground to me.

But what I do know is that the only proven conditions for a successful MMO have not manifested here. The PS3 launch might simulate a grand re-opening of sorts, but for that to translate into a successful MMO as we know it, it really needs to have the same kind of hype a fresh new MMO brings along with it. I just don't see how that's going to happen. Even with well-made fixes and updates, the drudgery of the bad launch will mute that progress, just like it has with every poorly launched MMO before it.
#137 Jun 20 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Make the game cheaper, reduce the grind every patch, and if a game is fun they will play. City of heros did it, FFXI did it, WOW did it twice, its very possible. People are only reluctant to start a new MMO when they feel they'll be years behind, if you give them the chance to catch up to the same plateau the bulk of people are on, they will sign on.


At the moment it's $15 with no monthly fee. The cheapest game I know of aside from F2P games which in my opinion is where this game is headed.

Also, 'the bulk of people' is not really a concern to people who would just be starting XIV for several reasons. There are maybe 100k people who play the game consistently now? Less? Even if they left the grind as is, if this game has any kind of longevity at all, people will catch up. NA and EU players were behind JP players when FFXI started, but if you look at the top players in terms of achievement, it's overwhelming how few JP players rank at the top. People will login if they enjoy the game regardless of how many people have how much more gear or content completed.


Stores sell it for whatever they sell it for, but as far as I know SE has not lowered the MSRP. What I was rerferring to was after we start seeing expansions. At that point you need to lower the cost of the initial game, which happened since we had zilart bundled in with our first copy of the game. I don't recall if they had done anything to reduce the grind, its very possible that they did not. Anyways, my point again was that letting new players catch up easier encourages people to sign up for a game that they otherwise would not because of the daunting task of catching up.
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#138 Jun 20 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Stores sell it for whatever they sell it for, but as far as I know SE has not lowered the MSRP.


$14.99 for NQ and $24.99 for HQ

Not gonna argue that the price of the original game should come down, but I don't see it dropping lower than it is now. An expansion bundled with the original game is pretty standard these days. No question you'll see it if XIV has an expansion as most people buying the game outside of digital expansion wouldn't have picked the original version up anyway.

KujaKoF wrote:
Anyways, my point again was that letting new players catch up easier encourages people to sign up for a game that they otherwise would not because of the daunting task of catching up.


I understood your point, but I disagree. Especially with the incredibly slow bleed of content for XIV, it will be exponentially easier for people to catch up in XIV, even when compared to how easy it was/is in XI. It's far from a daunting task.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#139 Jun 20 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Stores sell it for whatever they sell it for, but as far as I know SE has not lowered the MSRP.


$14.99 for NQ and $24.99 for HQ

Not gonna argue that the price of the original game should come down, but I don't see it dropping lower than it is now. An expansion bundled with the original game is pretty standard these days. No question you'll see it if XIV has an expansion as most people buying the game outside of digital expansion wouldn't have picked the original version up anyway.


I'm well aware that most stores are selling it for a low price, in the state its it looks like its a bargain bin clearance item. What I'm saying, is IF things go great with these patches, and they release an expansion late 2012 or early 2013, and target/bestbuy/gamestop/amazon all need to reorder copies of the original game, they do not stick a %49.99 price tag in it, they MSRP it at $19.99 or something so people buying it and the expansion at the same time aren't getting railroaded. I'm not saying I want the price lower than $15, I'm saying I don't think the max price should be set above 20-30$. I actually think the best move for them would be to give the original game away free with the expansion, though that will undoubtedly upset some of the older players.
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#140 Jun 20 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
What I'm saying, is IF things go great with these patches, and they release an expansion late 2012 or early 2013, and target/bestbuy/gamestop/amazon all need to reorder copies of the original game, they do not stick a %49.99 price tag in it, they MSRP it at $19.99 or something so people buying it and the expansion at the same time aren't getting railroaded.


It is a clearance item. No one was buying it at full price and probably very few sales at the current price. Count on it being bundled with the expansion. Like I said, it wouldn't make sense for them to sell the original game when the expansion is the point of buying it. If they do sell the original it won't go for more than it does now. MSRP doesn't really factor into the equation.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#141 Jun 20 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
What I'm saying, is IF things go great with these patches, and they release an expansion late 2012 or early 2013, and target/bestbuy/gamestop/amazon all need to reorder copies of the original game, they do not stick a %49.99 price tag in it, they MSRP it at $19.99 or something so people buying it and the expansion at the same time aren't getting railroaded.


It is a clearance item. No one was buying it at full price and probably very few sales at the current price. Count on it being bundled with the expansion. Like I said, it wouldn't make sense for them to sell the original game when the expansion is the point of buying it. If they do sell the original it won't go for more than it does now. MSRP doesn't really factor into the equation.



Right, we're pretty much agreeing here. I don't see it ever coming up, but I wouldn't put it past SE to offer it digitally for like 30-50$, as in their mind, thats still what the price is. Or like I said, if stores that returned/liquidated/trashed their copies had to reorder for some reason, trying to sell it again for $49.99. Anyways, awful lot of text for an issue that we're pretty much in agreement on, but I think we're on the same page now.
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#142 Jun 20 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Anyways, awful lot of text for an issue that we're pretty much in agreement on, but I think we're on the same page now.


On the price, yes. I still don't think that people will be turned off by the fact that other people started first. If that were the case than it wouldn't really matter how good the expansion and PS3 release are. If the 'headstart' were a factor then PS3 wouldn't have a chance at reviving XIV releasing ? years after PC.


Edited, Jun 20th 2011 11:30pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#143 Jun 20 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Anyways, awful lot of text for an issue that we're pretty much in agreement on, but I think we're on the same page now.


On the price, yes. I still don't think that people will be turned off by the fact that other people started first. If that were the case than it wouldn't really matter how good the expansion and PS3 release are. If the 'headstart' were a factor then PS3 wouldn't have a chance at reviving XIV releasing ? years after PC.


Edited, Jun 20th 2011 11:30pm by FilthMcNasty


Ok well on that point I agree, that between major expansions that doesn't matter much at all. I was more thinking in terms of large plateau points. say right now the cap is 50, we all spend 2 hours getting to cap, doing various missions, long rewarding quest chains etc. Then an expansion comes and people move on to a new cap at 60, everyone's moving on doing the 51-60 stuff, new players really won't get the chance to do that stuff in normal groups like the people who did it when it was new stuff. This is only really a problem when the stuff thats now hard to do is rather meaningful.

to try and use a real world example, I remember when I attempted to make another go at FFXI without many of my old friends. I was turned off at the idea that it was pretty tough to find people to do missions with, without finding someone to basically hold my hand through it. Its just kinda a downer, and it made the con column, when weighing the pros and cons of playing a new vs established game.

Again, say five years from now, caps at 80, do we really want our new players having to spend the X hours it took everyone to get to 50, plus the Y hours it to everyone to get to the next cap, and then the Z hours it took everyone to get to 80. I'm not going to try and get my friend to play a game that's going to take him 12 months to catch up to my level.

When I bring this up, I'm not talking near future stuff at all. I'm not saying when PS3 is released, or once this miracle patch happens. I'm talking years down the line (first expansion at the earliest, but even that depends on how many patches we get between now and then) when the time requirements to earn certain goals do become pretty daunting when you add them all up. One of the huge perks to expansions is that they are a fresh start, so it makes sense that they'd try and make them especially welcoming to newer players.

Added: I'm not trying to convert you to my side, I'm fine if you don't think thats needed, I don't either at the moment. I'm just thought you misunderstood my point to be more drastic than I was trying to make it.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 12:48am by KujaKoF
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#144 Jun 21 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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I stop by here from time to time to see what is shaping up with FFXIV. Would I go back to playing it? Prolly not. I still think Yoshida seems like a pretty decent guy and he's been shouldered with a monumental task, but I also think that FFXIV started so far behind the eight-ball that most people will have forgotten about it long before it turns around. Maybe that's what SE is counting on. A year or two from now when the devs have adjusted and added enough to bring FFXIV up to a level on par with what other MMOs offer, they might be able to get some people back who tried it and get some people to try it who only read snippets here and there about how bad it was at launch.

For all practical intents and purposes, FFXIV represents an engine. When most other MMO studios talk about their new game 3-5 years in the making, they started with a licensed engine. All that work was done for them. 3-5 years to develop the content around that engine. And SE's new dev team has only been at it for 9 months. There will be no magic patch. There will be no shining example of an addition that stands out and suddenly makes FFXIV worthy of subscription dollars. It will be a gradual process.

Auto-attack. Hoo boy. At least nobody seems to be doing backflips about this addition. From a game mechanics standpoint, it's pretty trivial. From a development standpoint and retuning combat around it and redoing animations, I understand that it's a substantial change. That's what it's going to take...major design revisions that involve more behind-the-scenes adjustments than what is actually readily visible to the player in a "working" game. Joe Average who picks up FFXIV later on down the line isn't going to necessarily know or care what went into making auto-attack work, he's just going to know that that's how it works and...yay. Big deal. Auto-attack. Yippy.

The "raids" being added don't really inspire. A certain other game that recently launched came out of the gates with 10 small-group instances and one large group endgame raid. They've since added one 20-man instanced raid, a 10-man instanced raid, a plethora of open world content, and another 20-man raid scheduled to go live in the coming weeks. That gives you an idea of the scope of additions that SE needs to bring to the table if they want FFXIV to be viable. Realistically, they should be offering instanced content for every 5 ranks starting at rank 10-15ish, with overlap in the higher ranks for diversity. If you've got a 100 hour slog ahead of you from ranks 40-50 and only one instance to run over and over again through that stretch, SE will have dropped the ball. Open world grinding doesn't work in fantasy MMOs anymore. If Bob, Joe, and Sue all think that's the bee's knees, great. Their combined $45/month isn't going to keep FFXIV going.

By the time FFXIV is ready for prime time, they're going to be staring down the barrel of Blizzard's next MMO and whether you love Blizzard or hate them, a game broken at launch trying to redeem itself can't afford the kind of AAA competition currently in the works. Rift already raised the bar in terms of MMO player expectations. SWTOR and GW2 are not far off. Those games get fresh starts. FFXIV is struggling for redemption. I don't ever expect to see SE start charging for subs, PS3 release or not. I think FFXIV is destined to go the F2P route, and if SE does that they have a chance. Otherwise, they're just throwing good money after bad at it and sooner or later the losses are going to exceed reasonable limits. They'll have to change their angle or pull the plug.

Edited, Jun 20th 2011 11:43pm by Aurelius
#145 Jun 21 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
2.) Can a fully redesigned and fun FFXIV overcome a failed launch and become succesful?

I would have said, yes, absolutely, but now have to admit that it's questionable, if not downright unlikely.

I brought this up during beta testing. There are 2 MMO's that I've personally played that never really recovered from poor launches fairly recently: Warhammer and Age of Conan. I brought it up because I was hoping that what we saw in beta was not the finished product.

Now those games may be great now, but when they were released people that left the game never came back. They ended up merging servers which is never good news to people looking to invest into a new MMO. If people are leaving the game why should I start?
#146 Jun 21 2011 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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S-E has the manpower to throw behind this MMO if they really wanted it to work, but it looks like the beancounters are keeping this thing from taking flight.

So, we're in a downward spiral.

I'm not going to spend my time on a game in limbo. If I see some serious development strides--like I've been waiting for since launch, but have failed to see--then I'll start playing again.

I don't think FFXIV will "make it" before they just downsize the thing completely because they were never serious about making it a great game in the first place. I understand the devs are trying hard with what they've got, but it's the suits that're bringing this down.
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