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#1 Jun 14 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Guys (n gals),

Can we tone it down a bit please... We've had a few instances lately where there's likely been a troll yet we jump to conclusions and ensure a troll. Some of these new folks ARE genuine, they want to be a part of our bandaged community. In the event the game does get fixed, if we're jumping to conclusions WE will be the downfall of this game. I'd honestly prefer if SE was the sole responsible holder to the blame, and we haven't been ensuring that's the only fault.

In XI community was key, it was forced upon us to ensure progression (no so much lately with the changes)... For XIV we've become soured (rightfully so) but we've also been the fastest to ensure we won't have people to play with.

I'm guilty of taking shots at new ZAM members, sometimes it's just too hard not to. However, I'm asking that we don't go out of our way to do so. These forums will continue to exist no matter our actions just because of the scope of games covered. But WE soley hold the key to our communities success per game.

I hereby promise to read my reply's to newbs (my definition 10 posts or less) at least 3 times before submitting. I may still be snide or condensending, but I vow to make the effort to ensure I'm not being so just for the sake of lols. I ask you to do the same, sometimes it's way to easy.... The hard route is reeling ourselves in, and be helpful no matter the post. If it's a troll, said actions may eliminate them before they get thier ball rolling... it likely won't, but we'd have done our part in fostering a community which is something this game is sorely lacking.
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#2 Jun 14 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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****.....ok...I'll try..

Hangs head..walks away slowly kicking a can with hands in pocket...
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#3 Jun 14 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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I 2nd this. The past couple weeks, I've been to feel regret for reading many posts. I go in expecting to have a decent topic to read, and..... it turns into something negative even when the thread topic doesn't resemble anything trollish. I try to help when I can, but by the time I see a thread where I actually have something to say, it's already spoiled by a negative nancy or two. After reading their comments, I no longer feel the need to post anything at all. I sincerely wish this would change.
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#4 Jun 14 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really know that I call people trolls. But I am sure that I have attacked people with 10 or less post without really looking at what they are trying to say. And that is a really bad thing to do. I know from time to time I am still called a troll for not being a big fan of FFXIV and a few times for defending FFXIV. I will do my best to take a look at what people are saying before I jump to conclusions.

(Hangs head and follows Simool out.)

PS. Just had to say. This made me think of the best movie ever made.. EVER!!!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy2nAOdBUlw

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 5:41pm by Sethern79

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 5:42pm by Sethern79
#5 Jun 14 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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I'm guessing this thread was spawned because of a certain someone with bad grammar who made really idiotic treads.

I for one will have to disagree Perrin. I'm all for helping new players out with advice but once someone goes full ****** it's not easy to hold back and quite frankly I don't want those kinda people playing the game. If I can drive them away from playing then I've done my duty.
#6 Jun 14 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm nice to new people.
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#7 Jun 14 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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You have a few specific veteran members that are cynical and bitter that ruin the forum for the rest of us. Like it or not, people are sheep and when they see people act a certain way (negetive, hostile), they will emulate them. 4chan is a perfect example of this. And over the past few years, ZAM has been slowly moving towards that.
#8 Jun 14 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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#9 Jun 14 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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All I'll say is that whenever somebody's user name is impossible to pronounce, and they type like it's AOL again (no, I don't think the fact you typed it on your phone is a valid excuse for typing like that), I don't usually take the post very seriously.

I can be very cynical and sarcastic when I'm not serious.

Edited, Jun 14th 2011 8:30pm by Docent42
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#10 Jun 14 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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Well, here are my thoughts... I don't mind helping when I can if I can, heck we were all newb's once...My issue is when said newb goes irate on the community as a whole, that is when I have issues. So if someone starts basically belittling the community, yeah I am going to be a bit offended...
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#11 Jun 14 2011 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mitsuuko wrote:
You have a few specific veteran members that are cynical and bitter that ruin the forum for the rest of us. Like it or not, people are sheep and when they see people act a certain way (negetive, hostile), they will emulate them. 4chan is a perfect example of this. And over the past few years, ZAM has been slowly moving towards that.


Ok you lost me when you cited 4-chan, which i consider a cesspool of people who have mutually agreed to represent the worst of the human-internet population. I don't want to give newbie's crap. In fact I'm in the mindset of "let people like what they like", i would not discourage anyone from playing FFXIV if they really wanted to, I completely understand that people do want to buy what FFXIV is selling. I haven't seen a straight up honest new player question in weeks, what I have seen are trolls and people who apparently joined a web forum and asked a dumb question before ever even considering checking the publisher of the games stance on a subject.

I'm the first to agree, being cynical and crappy to new players is a horrible way to contribute to a game that is struggling and trying to do better (and despite my pessimism, I would never try and support its downfall), is a crappy thing to do. I really do feel that this forum sees very few new people seeking legitimate help, and what the OP sees is as a legit problem of chasing away new players is more likely an overly snoody answer to a well trolled question.

ADDED: I'll add a quick list of things you should do if you want to want to avoid someone assuming you are a toll.

1) do a quick page search (at least the most recent 4) as well as a topic search of your question, if it is answered, don't ask again, it will not have changed (heres looking at you " is this game still running/f2play"

2) Understand FFXIVs situation. it is not your typical free to play. In fact it is 100% subscription based, however there is no monthly billing. You will have to sign up, and you will need to create a subscription-able account. Please go ahead and read what is required regarding credit cards and such before buying/requesting a buddy pass.

3) seriously, there are no more buddy passes. Look at the buddy pass thread, count how many people have said "oh thank you for the buddy pass, I will look you up in game, I hope to one day contribute to the game community in return for the kindness you have shown me today" posts, that is exactly how many buddy passes have been given out since that thread started. Ok this has very little to do with trolling, but the fact that the buddy pass thread exists is stupid and completely goes against what the buddy pass was intended for. If you really want to try the game, you can afford the $15-20 it costs to buy the thing.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 12:30am by KujaKoF
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#12 Jun 14 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Mitsuuko wrote:
You have a few specific veteran members that are cynical and bitter that ruin the forum for the rest of us. Like it or not, people are sheep and when they see people act a certain way (negetive, hostile), they will emulate them. 4chan is a perfect example of this. And over the past few years, ZAM has been slowly moving towards that.


Ok you lost me when you cited 4-chan, which i consider a cesspool of people who have mutually agreed to represent the worst of the human-internet population. I don't want to give newbie's crap. In fact I'm in the mindset of "let people like what they like", i would not discourage anyone from playing FFXIV if they really wanted to, I completely understand that people do want to buy what FFXIV is selling. I haven't seen a straight up honest new player question in weeks, what I have seen are trolls and people who apparently joined a web forum and asked a dumb question before ever even considering checking the publisher of the games stance on a subject.

I'm the first to agree, being cynical and crappy to new players is a horrible way to contribute to a game that is struggling and trying to do better (and despite my pessimism, I would never try and support its downfall), is a crappy thing to do. I really do feel that this forum sees very few new people seeking legitimate help, and what the OP sees is as a legit problem of chasing away new players is more likely an overly snoody answer to a well trolled question.

ADDED: I'll add a quick list of things you should do if you want to want to avoid someone assuming you are a toll.

1) do a quick page search (at least the most recent 4) as well as a topic search of your question, if it is answered, don't ask again, it will not have changed (heres looking at you " is this game still running/f2play"

2) Understand FFXIVs situation. it is not your typical free to play. In fact it is 100% subscription based, however there is no monthly billing. You will have to sign up, and you will need to create a subscription-able account. Please go ahead and read what is required regarding credit cards and such before buying/requesting a buddy pass.

3) seriously, there are no more buddy passes. Look at the buddy pass thread, count how many people have said "oh thank you for the buddy pass, I will look you up in game, I hope to one day contribute to the game community in return for the kindness you have shown me today" posts, that is exactly how many buddy passes have been given out since that thread started. Ok this has very little to do with trolling, but the fact that the buddy pass thread exists is stupid and completely goes against what the buddy pass was intended for. If you really want to try the game, you can afford the $15-20 it costs to buy the thing.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 12:30am by KujaKoF


Well said, as first point about 4chan I was making a point where things can lead to. 4chan is a community completely made up of sheep. Everyone emulates everyone else because they think it makes them cool and ridicules everyone else who doesnt act exactly as they do. ZAM is also filled with many sheep, people emulates other people and 99% of their posts is made up of mocking other forumers.

In my opinion its troubling that you label people who are forum illiterate as trolls. Where in fact the negetive reaction to such dumb topic is where the real trolling is. Yes, Zam gets tons of dumb posts because people are lazy or not familiar with forums enough to do a search. There are genuine trolls like all the "FFXIV is dead" and but those kinds of threads are a minority.

Main problem is when someone shows interest in the community they are assaulted with negetivity and down votes. Last time I was on FFXI general, the first 5 or so "interested in returning" threads were all default or below with only 1 or 2 actual constructive responses in each. For me the problem isnt the inherent trolling from new members but the popularity and encouragement of people being snarky, negetive, insulting, and general dumb lolhumor.



Edited, Jun 15th 2011 1:38am by Mitsuuko
#13 Jun 14 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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i agree with this post.

my rule of thumb is to take each post for what it was meant to be taken for. if i bash what i think is a troll i could be bashing a legit player.

you can always tell if a post is meant for trolling just by waiting a bit and watching the replies the OP gives you. most people are bad at trolling (or acting) so you can spot them. but i never bash the original post until it becomes something rediculous.
#14 Jun 15 2011 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Mitsuuko wrote:
You have a few specific veteran members that are cynical and bitter that ruin the forum for the rest of us. Like it or not, people are sheep and when they see people act a certain way (negetive, hostile), they will emulate them. 4chan is a perfect example of this. And over the past few years, ZAM has been slowly moving towards that.


Ok you lost me when you cited 4-chan, which i consider a cesspool of people who have mutually agreed to represent the worst of the human-internet population. I don't want to give newbie's crap. In fact I'm in the mindset of "let people like what they like", i would not discourage anyone from playing FFXIV if they really wanted to, I completely understand that people do want to buy what FFXIV is selling. I haven't seen a straight up honest new player question in weeks, what I have seen are trolls and people who apparently joined a web forum and asked a dumb question before ever even considering checking the publisher of the games stance on a subject.

I'm the first to agree, being cynical and crappy to new players is a horrible way to contribute to a game that is struggling and trying to do better (and despite my pessimism, I would never try and support its downfall), is a crappy thing to do. I really do feel that this forum sees very few new people seeking legitimate help, and what the OP sees is as a legit problem of chasing away new players is more likely an overly snoody answer to a well trolled question.

ADDED: I'll add a quick list of things you should do if you want to want to avoid someone assuming you are a toll.

1) do a quick page search (at least the most recent 4) as well as a topic search of your question, if it is answered, don't ask again, it will not have changed (heres looking at you " is this game still running/f2play"

2) Understand FFXIVs situation. it is not your typical free to play. In fact it is 100% subscription based, however there is no monthly billing. You will have to sign up, and you will need to create a subscription-able account. Please go ahead and read what is required regarding credit cards and such before buying/requesting a buddy pass.

3) seriously, there are no more buddy passes. Look at the buddy pass thread, count how many people have said "oh thank you for the buddy pass, I will look you up in game, I hope to one day contribute to the game community in return for the kindness you have shown me today" posts, that is exactly how many buddy passes have been given out since that thread started. Ok this has very little to do with trolling, but the fact that the buddy pass thread exists is stupid and completely goes against what the buddy pass was intended for. If you really want to try the game, you can afford the $15-20 it costs to buy the thing.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 12:30am by KujaKoF



Ok, Number 1, Every forum says Number 1. And.... no one ever does it. So why keep making this talking point? No one is ever going to search their topic first, except a few people, and usually people who never wanted to talk on the forum in the first place.

Number 2, how many games have ever been in this situation? I can't think of any, and there is possibly a few but not many. So I wouldn't be surprised if people ask the same tired old question about this...

3. Why pay for a game that everyone online is saying is dying and people are saying "Golden Patch/Miracle Patch" is its only hope? I dunno, if I wasn't a total FF fan (Which I am), then I could understand that. We should be thankful they are even giving the game a chance. There are plenty of other MMORPGS that people are excited about and are not on life support.

There are alot of users on here that seem to feel the game is made only for them, and they don't care if everyone else in the world hates it. But thats not how the Market works, if you like something and everyone else hates it, don't expect support for it to last. This game needs new people. It needs those people who you DON'T like.

I myself have seen some newbie posts that went bad quickly on these forums only because the users commented aggressively. I mean, come on, look at the post count, if this person post count is 100ish less or little more don't start harassing the person immediately. You harass the veteran forum posters, they can take it =P. You got to ease the newbies in. If anything just don't reply at ALL. the Topic will die on its own, and the user will take a hint, without you needing to **** him/her off.
#15 Jun 15 2011 at 12:16 AM Rating: Good
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It isn't even about whether or not the first post is a troll, it's about the post being coherent. When somebody comes in and makes a post with a giant wall of text and horrid spelling (which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you) then they deserve the onslaught that's coming to them.

I mean, I'm not asking for perfect spelling or even proper punctuation so long as it's legible. **** I can even stand a little bit of internet speak, AOL speak or whatever one would call it. Like I said in my above post, I would rather not have these people playing the game and if I drive them away then so be it.

Hate me if you will but I stand firm in my opinion.
#16 Jun 15 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not the happiest person on this forum and I don't sugarcoat my words, but I'm fair. I don't give a crap about a poster's karma or their post count. If I see a person making an effort, I'll answer with an effort. If I see a person being an over the top slob or just mean/hostile towards the other posters, I'll call you out on it or return the favor.
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#17 Jun 15 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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I'm quite concerned about that 'sheep' situation: the fact that somehow, for some reason, being negative, cynical and sarcastic is 'cool' on the internet. I enjoy cynicism and sarcasm as the next geek, but I think there is no place for those on forums. Forums should be used to discuss ideas and criticize said ideas in a constructive manner. Whole generation of internet users have to really learn that self-control on the internet is as important but nobler than self-control in real-life social situations. Ofcourse, I blame the internet cesspool that is 4chan and Encyclopedia Dramatica and the like for encouraging, nay, praising trolling as being funny.

And learn to deal with/recognize actual trolls. By definition, trolls are people who deliberately try to incite hostility from people or rage people into a flame war. Newbies are, oftentimes, NOT deliberately trying to **** people off (they want to try the game). They may be ignorant of situations, and they may never use that 'search' function, but don't confuse ignorance with hostility. As a matter of fact, I only occasionally see low-post-count people being truly hostile. It's some high-post-counts that I'm afraid of.

I have to admit I'm becoming more and more reluctant to come to these forums due to the negativity aura surrounding it. Will I still be playing the game as it hopefully improve? Heck yes. But I sure as **** won't come here anymore if people keep acting like some in the official FFXIV boards *shudder*

Remember: It's ok to not like things, it's ok, but don't be a d**k about it.
#18 Jun 15 2011 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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The sentiment in this thread is very noble and does make people think twice but regardless if a poster is a troll or a genuine new player there are a few things that I don't agree with.

As low on players as FFXIV might be I, personally, would never want to have to play with someone like this, if this is the way you decide to introduce yourself to a comunity then I don't think we really need you.
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#19 Jun 15 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
It isn't even about whether or not the first post is a troll, it's about the post being coherent. When somebody comes in and makes a post with a giant wall of text and horrid spelling (which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you) then they deserve the onslaught that's coming to them.

I mean, I'm not asking for perfect spelling or even proper punctuation so long as it's legible. **** I can even stand a little bit of internet speak, AOL speak or whatever one would call it. Like I said in my above post, I would rather not have these people playing the game and if I drive them away then so be it.

Hate me if you will but I stand firm in my opinion.


That's understandable, but how do you know the person who made the post is not from a English native speaking country?

He/She could be Chinese, French, Spanish...who knows what. The point is on the internet you don't know what the person's situation is. (He/She could even be disabled, and have limited typing capabilities). So I think criticizing someones grammar and language is better left for literature, than online forums. If you don't understand what they said, you can ask for clarification or move on, right?


#20 Jun 15 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you


Where is this spellchecker? I could really use it. :x
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#21 Jun 15 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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zuogehaomeng wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
It isn't even about whether or not the first post is a troll, it's about the post being coherent. When somebody comes in and makes a post with a giant wall of text and horrid spelling (which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you) then they deserve the onslaught that's coming to them.

I mean, I'm not asking for perfect spelling or even proper punctuation so long as it's legible. **** I can even stand a little bit of internet speak, AOL speak or whatever one would call it. Like I said in my above post, I would rather not have these people playing the game and if I drive them away then so be it.

Hate me if you will but I stand firm in my opinion.


That's understandable, but how do you know the person who made the post is not from a English native speaking country?

He/She could be Chinese, French, Spanish...who knows what. The point is on the internet you don't know what the person's situation is. (He/She could even be disabled, and have limited typing capabilities). So I think criticizing someones grammar and language is better left for literature, than online forums. If you don't understand what they said, you can ask for clarification or move on, right?


True, but people usually aren't critized for their grammar alone. The tone of the post is in most cases the reason. There is also a difference between bad spelling from a person who's actually bad at English or someone who's trying to butcher the language on purpose or is just being lazy.
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#22 Jun 15 2011 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
As low on players as FFXIV might be I, personally, would never want to have to play with someone like this, if this is the way you decide to introduce yourself to a comunity then I don't think we really need you.


Welcome to the internets. People ***** and complain when **** sucks. They didn't present their ideas in the most tactful way, but it's hard to argue against their points. It probably could have been presented in a different way, but the underlying message is the same. Consider the following:

SP curve can get pretty steep, fatigue sucks and there is nearly no incentive for you to group with other people... which is kind of important to MMO gaming. XI forced grouping which led to the community that FF players commonly brag about. XIV is doing nothing to carry that tradition into the future.




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#23 Jun 15 2011 at 2:59 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
SP curve can get pretty steep, fatigue sucks and there is nearly no incentive for you to group with other people... which is kind of important to MMO gaming. XI forced grouping which led to the community that FF players commonly brag about. XIV is doing nothing to carry that tradition into the future.


There might a lot on things you may disagree in FFXIV but personally I don't have that much of an issue with the first 2.

SP curve in my opinion is not that bad, imo it's actually too easy to ge to 50. You will notice a big difference between ranks 23 and 24 because all the outcry of the comunity which made SE establish a SP bonus for classes under r24, personally I'm against it.

I might not like the fatigue system but I can see why it's there and can even agree with it's implementation based on the game's approach. FFXIV is what many call a horizontal ranking experience, you are advised to rank up as many classes as possible so you can have as many abilities as possible. Once you take this into consideration it shouldn't be that much of a problem in a 80K SP per week limit.

There is a benefit to grouping, you can fight higher ranked mobs which will give you more SP, behest mobs depend on ammount of people taking part (I think) which will once again enable you to get more SP and there is a definite bonus in linking leves to get more SP. Do I think that the SP gained in party fighting higher ranked mobs should be much higher than solo mobs? Yes but the game as it is, is so because of all the requests to make it more accessible to solo players.
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#24 Jun 15 2011 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you


Where is this spellchecker? I could really use it. :x


Disregard that, I was mistaken. It's actually part of Firefox. I had completely forgotten about it and just assumed it was the forum doing it.

Edit: http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Using%20the%20spell%20checker

Really helps, saves some time proof reading.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 7:38am by CupDeNoodles
#25 Jun 15 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you
Where is this spellchecker? I could really use it. :x
Built into Firefox.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 8:00am by bsphil
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#26 Jun 15 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
which I never understood because, last I checked it spell checks the post for you


Where is this spellchecker? I could really use it. :x


Disregard that, I was mistaken. It's actually part of Firefox. I had completely forgotten about it and just assumed it was the forum doing it.

Edit: http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Using%20the%20spell%20checker

Really helps, saves some time proof reading.

Edited, Jun 15th 2011 7:38am by CupDeNoodles

I was about to point that out. I swear by it. I'm not the best speller and it is vastly superior to when I used to type things in Word and then copy & paste it into IE. It would often do weird stuff with certain letters.
#27 Jun 15 2011 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Firstly, I'm amazed that what I wrote is coherrent... I certainly wasn't last night when I wrote it :p However I still stand by it and will do my best to keep my word by proof reading my posts to newbs.

Secondly, thanks to those of you who are having an intelligent and civilized discussion on the topic. I don't expect every one to agree or even act based on my OP, but hopefully some of us will and HOPEFULLY when/if the game makes it's amazing recovery the community will be poised to take advantage of that with less heated topics and such.
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#28 Jun 15 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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But I have a FireFox add-on that auto-completes my obscenities... (T _ T)
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#29 Jun 15 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Someone just went into the buddy pass request thread and rated down every single post including the ones that weren't asking for a pass. Most of the posters will never post here again so it was pointless to do and it did hurt the non-requesting posters karma. It's a good example of people going power hungry with the karma system. It would be nice to see people being nicer with the rating system as well as nicer in post. It's sad when a new person to the forum has automatic default posts even when they don't deserve it (sometimes they deserve it i.e. trolls).
#30 Jun 15 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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blueazaka wrote:
Someone just went into the buddy pass request thread and rated down every single post including the ones that weren't asking for a pass. Most of the posters will never post here again so it was pointless to do and it did hurt the non-requesting posters karma. It's a good example of people going power hungry with the karma system. It would be nice to see people being nicer with the rating system as well as nicer in post. It's sad when a new person to the forum has automatic default posts even when they don't deserve it (sometimes they deserve it i.e. trolls).


Yeah, this one I can agree with. You make a good point.

Perrin, wow, there is no way you could tell by what you wrote. Very well thought out for one being under an influence or exhausted! Lol
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#31 Jun 16 2011 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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*sigh* I went to check the official forums, and I think this is relevant to this topic:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/13622-Gridania-Vs.-Ishagard.-Who-won

The guy asked an honest question about fluff, and people gave him sh*t and being sarcastic because oh it'z so funneh [sic]!

Everytime I see something like this: this is all I can think of.
#32 Jun 16 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I dunno anyone who's too proud of themselves or anyone else plays MMO's hardcore, I mean i'm not saying everyone who loves MMO's is a jerk but yeah... Its like wholesome girl at a bar, sure they'res a few their but yeah your odds aren't terrific.
#34 Jun 16 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Enfid wrote:
Everytime I see something like this: this is all I can think of.


Now that was awesome.

And as for this thread, I couldn't agree more. Not so long a noob who'd only started playing FFXIV a week ago had a simple question on grinding, and pretty much every post, save one kind guru, was spent humiliating him.

If this is the "community" that's supposed to save FFXIV from certain death, then you may as well take the dagger to the game's heart now.

Edited, Jun 16th 2011 10:42am by ForceOfMeh
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