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Just a thought about the classes.Follow

#1 Jun 21 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Hey all, just wanted to share an idea that came to mind the other day. I was wondering how they could go about adding new classes and then I thought; maybe Square Enix could go the Final Fantasy Tactics route where players could play multiple certain classes to unlock a new class entirely. For example I could play Marauder and Thaumaturge to unlock Dark Knight. Obviously this is one of many routes that Square Enix can choose to take.
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#2 Jun 21 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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BodanRadford wrote:
Hey all, just wanted to share an idea that came to mind the other day. I was wondering how they could go about adding new classes and then I thought; maybe Square Enix could go the Final Fantasy Tactics route where players could play multiple certain classes to unlock a new class entirely. For example I could play Marauder and Thaumaturge to unlock Dark Knight. Obviously this is one of many routes that Square Enix can choose to take.


I'm also hoping for something like this. In my mind if they simply make it so that each single current class corresponds to one single job, and you unlock the jobs by doing quests, it would be little more than re-naming all of the current classes and adding some new abilities and perks that are only unlockable through questing. Even if it starts out with only one job per class but they express intent to create mixtures like the one you suggested, I would still prefer that to just flat out leaving the system as one class to one job.
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#3 Jun 21 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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It would also be cool if they added more weapon types. such as Great Swords, Scythes, Daggers, etc.
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#4 Jun 21 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I wouldn't mind that sort of job progression at all. The Tactics series has always had my favorite method of jobs anyways so this would be perfect to me, and would make a lot of sense.

Also agree with the new weapons in a way, though Scythe just isn't possible(It would have to be something else entirely, it's already Botanist's off hand "weapon")

If the other jobs in the .dats ever get released, we will get new weapon types with those(Arcanist, Fencer, and Musketeer at least).


But, as awesome as this all would be, SE seems to want jobs to be more defined in their roles, so there's probably no room for actual hybrids like Drk or even Rdm.

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Daggers

Just noticed that. Though they are counted under sword skill, there's no visual difference between the daggers of XIV and the Daggers of XI.


Edited, Jun 21st 2011 6:16pm by Uchitoru
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#5 Jun 21 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.
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#6 Jun 21 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.


I agree. Any idea that's even more punishing than FFXI was (where at worst, you only had to level one of 6 "starter" jobs to 30 to get the quests to unlock all the "advanced jobs") is definitely not the right way to go in FFXIV.

Having to unlock a chain of classes like in FFT would just be brutal by comparison. In a tactical RPG, it works; in an MMO, not so much.
#7 Jun 21 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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ForceOfMeh wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.


I agree. Any idea that's even more punishing than FFXI was (where at worst, you only had to level one of 6 "starter" jobs to 30 to get the quests to unlock all the "advanced jobs") is definitely not the right way to go in FFXIV.

Having to unlock a chain of classes like in FFT would just be brutal by comparison. In a tactical RPG, it works; in an MMO, not so much.


With this in mind, if they did introduce a system like what OP is talking about (and which as you said has been suggested before), but also lowered the SP jumps between levels for the classes that currently exist, what would you (and anyone else) think of that?

I'm not talking about making it possible to rank up a class from 1 to 50 in a day, but enough to make the idea of leveling several classes to get the job you want acceptable. Speaking of which, in the same hypothetical situation, how long WOULD you want it to take to get to R50 in the base level classes? Would it be better if they did something like what you mentioned was in FF11, for instance maybe to qualify as having a class leveled high enough to get the jobs it branches into you only have to get to R25 or R30?

Edit : Double quote

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 9:38pm by mkermy
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#8 Jun 21 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Decent
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mkermy wrote:
ForceOfMeh wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.


I agree. Any idea that's even more punishing than FFXI was (where at worst, you only had to level one of 6 "starter" jobs to 30 to get the quests to unlock all the "advanced jobs") is definitely not the right way to go in FFXIV.

Having to unlock a chain of classes like in FFT would just be brutal by comparison. In a tactical RPG, it works; in an MMO, not so much.


With this in mind, if they did introduce a system like what OP is talking about (and which as you said has been suggested before), but also lowered the SP jumps between levels for the classes that currently exist, what would you (and anyone else) think of that?

I'm not talking about making it possible to rank up a class from 1 to 50 in a day, but enough to make the idea of leveling several classes to get the job you want acceptable. Speaking of which, in the same hypothetical situation, how long WOULD you want it to take to get to R50 in the base level classes? Would it be better if they did something like what you mentioned was in FF11, for instance maybe to qualify as having a class leveled high enough to get the jobs it branches into you only have to get to R25 or R30?

Edit : Double quote

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 9:38pm by mkermy


I would just be less frustrated/disappointed with the system. I think its a bad idea in principle, no matter what the numbers are. I think jobs should branch outwards rather than inwards (1 class branch to multiple jobs, rather than multiple classes unlocking 1 job). I think doing it that way makes for a more interesting MMO system, and doing it the "FF tactics" style is using an inferior system simply as a nod to a previous game.

I actually like what they are doing (or at least what I hope they are doing). So far it seems that we have 7 classes, and each seems to be unlocking 1 job for group specialization. What I'm hoping is that they come up with a second round of jobs that can be applied to those 7 classes, maybe branching them out a different way. This way the system is still more thematic than FFXI's blanket any level 30 allows any adv job, but it offers more options with less grinding.
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#9 Jun 21 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I actually like what they are doing (or at least what I hope they are doing). So far it seems that we have 7 classes, and each seems to be unlocking 1 job for group specialization. What I'm hoping is that they come up with a second round of jobs that can be applied to those 7 classes, maybe branching them out a different way. This way the system is still more thematic than FFXI's blanket any level 30 allows any adv job, but it offers more options with less grinding.


I'm not even sure it quite compares with FFXI. Jobs in FFXIV seem more like an extension of a particular class than a whole new type of class, whereas advanced jobs in FFXI were independent of whatever job you brought to 30 to get it and you didn't even have to look back at that original level 30 job if you didn't want to. It seems like apples and oranges to me.
#10 Jun 21 2011 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I am also hoping for one class system and one complimentry jobs system. I also hope for a tactics-like unlock system. The main benefit I see for the addition of the second system for jobs is that it allows the Warrior his choice of weapons.

I am somewhat expecting this, and somewhat expect this is what SE had in plans from the begining (perhaps they were just to behind in development,) and many of the 'new changes' were actually planned step. This would explain why they pulled the /search from early play: it seemed broken to us, but perhaps it was designed to search jobs, not classes. I am hoping for unlock elements such as a redmage set of armour, the more pieces of which 'level up' the job. This goes in coordination of the new announcement ("jobs will not level up with experience") and very early talk of what we all know a the Armoury system. SE also talked of using crafts in battle(I think). With the Class/Job system, a Warrior could equip a forging hammer, a monk could equip a frying pan, and a Ninja could equip needles. Given the number of jobs and the sheer number of arms types availible, character build possibilities would be greater than lottery odds. I am guessing this is how our job system will unravel, and certain jobs will passively benefit the most sensible arms: A White Mage for example would not get bonus for using a sword, but might get a 10X multiplier on Staff strength. I secretly hope they go crazy with multipliers. I want 10X Str and Vit for Paladin sets. Hey, if we cant notice a difference between 80 vs 120 str, maybe we need to go from 120 to 1200.


**Edit** Hmmm. I just read SE plan to remove AOE for magic - almost as if they a preparing to impliment AOE for job ability, perhaps in the form of gloves which also boost elements by 15X

Just my rant and future hopes.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 10:58pm by WolfOak
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#11 Jun 21 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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WolfOak wrote:
many of the 'new changes' were actually planned step. This would explain why they pulled the /search from early play: it seemed broken to us, but perhaps it was designed to search jobs, not classes.


If that was the case, they should have removed it once we actually had jobs to search for, not eight months before that point, when their server numbers began plummeting.
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#12 Jun 22 2011 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.


Quick observation on that... I got a leve link group and went from R1-20 in 2 hours. If job unlocks were set at R30 in a couple of jobs or something like that for example, whats the problem? Sure if it was like R50 in two jobs thats quite a stretch.

A tactics style system would be great imo

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:09am by Metin
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#13 Jun 22 2011 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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WolfOak wrote:
I am somewhat expecting this, and somewhat expect this is what SE had in plans from the begining (perhaps they were just to behind in development,) and many of the 'new changes' were actually planned step. This would explain why they pulled the /search from early play: it seemed broken to us, but perhaps it was designed to search jobs, not classes.


No, I'm pretty certain they removed the search function so that the players that were left couldn't see just how few others there were in game. The timing for it, happening right after the mass exodus of people is just way too convenient for it to be something they planned in conjunction with the job system. Prior to Yoshi, I really don't think there were ANY plans in place for this game, other than the devs sitting around and waiting to be fired.
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#14 Jun 22 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Default
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Metin wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
This got suggested all the time before they did tell us how jobs were going to work. I was never a fan of the idea because classes are leveled in months, not hours, and it gets tedious.


Quick observation on that... I got a leve link group and went from R1-20 in 2 hours.


That's not the norm for most players - I hope you realize that. I believe R30 would be too high in this game even with the SP changes and all...

That said, I don't think it is too much to ask for players to achieve Rank 15 in a class before they start unlocking Job quests. Even 20 wouldn't be that bad, but 15 would probably be ideal for most. 1-10 is a breeze and the additional 5 ranks don't take that long. I would like to see a system that allows for each class, on its own ranked to 15, to unlock a job AND encourages multi-classing to unlock others.

PUG -> MNK
MAR -> WAR
GLA -> Knight (don't know the abbreviation)
CON -> WHM/BLM
THM -> SCH
ARC -> RNG
LNC -> DRG

Would be the simple scheme and then combinations would unlock even more jobs. MAR/THM -> DRK, GLA/CON -> PLD, THM/GLA -> RDM & BLU, PUG/MAR -> Berserker, ARC/THM -> COR, etc...Rank 15 doesn't take that much time and with the proposed changes, along with some that have already taken place, the journey can be quite fun.

Quote:
I secretly hope they go crazy with multipliers. I want 10X Str and Vit for Paladin sets. Hey, if we cant notice a difference between 80 vs 120 str, maybe we need to go from 120 to 1200.


They are changing the way stats work so this would not be necessary.

Side note: I'd love to see some lower ranked instances...R10 - R20 needs some love. Limited leve locations and 'meh' quests aren't enough.

-Kash

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 12:15pm by Kashius
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#15 Jun 22 2011 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius wrote:

That's not the norm for most players - I hope you realize that.


It should be. We werent even trying. We were all naked and few of us even had leves out of the 5 party members, on 5 star with a link or two possibly we went R1-4 in one mob. We didnt plan on getting that high so only had one or two leves for horizon. Could have been much better with some planning amd hindsight. Linking leves is the way to go, People should know this by now.
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#16 Jun 22 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Default
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People know - just not everyone has the time, organization, amount of friends, desire or whatever else is needed to do what you and your friends did. I'm sure it was easy for y'all, but you can't expect that it will be as easy for everyone.

I just figure if you keep the requirements for progression and unlocks attainable for more people, more people will want to play. R30 for some could take dumb long. Not to mention it is more than halfway to cap.

-Kash
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#17 Jun 22 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Kashius wrote:
Not to mention it is more than halfway to cap.

-Kash


Not in effort or SP amount wise, 30 is not halfway to 50
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#18 Jun 22 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kashius wrote:
People know - just not everyone has the time, organization, amount of friends, desire or whatever else is needed to do what you and your friends did. I'm sure it was easy for y'all, but you can't expect that it will be as easy for everyone.

I just figure if you keep the requirements for progression and unlocks attainable for more people, more people will want to play. R30 for some could take dumb long. Not to mention it is more than halfway to cap.


I played very casually, stopping often along the way, not playing for a day or two, switching to other classes, and still got to Rank 25 in a week. If you think that roughly two weeks is too long of an investment to unlock a new class, then I don't even know why you're playing a game that features persistent progression.

Additionally, while Rank 30 is "more than halfway to cap" numerically, it's actually more like 1/5 of the way there in terms of skill points, which is what actually matters. This means that Rank 30 is actually much, much, closer than you make it out to be. It's not 30/50, it's more like 380,000/1,800,000 (these numbers may be before the adjustment that lowered skill points necessary to rank up, in which case Rank 30 is even easier than I make it out to be).

Finally, the fact that something may be mildly difficult for friendless, disorganized, extremely time constrained individuals is not sufficient reason to make every part of the game take ~15 minutes or less. If you don't have a few hours a week, then a game with persistent progression is simply too much for you to handle.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#19 Jun 22 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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well my issue with the system doesn't have anything to do with the SP requirements, I really don't like the idea of leveling 2 classes, and then as a reward getting a mash up of those 2 classes. In the example of marauder + THUM, I'm leveling a beefy melee and a mage with absorbs and support skills in order to unlock a beefy melee with absorbs and support skills? as long as we can equip off class abilities, I already have that.

Again, I like the more traditional way of doing it, expanding from simple to complex. My swordsmen (gladiator) leveling and then focusing on defense (paladin) or maybe Magic (RDM). My Pugilist can focus on toughness (Monk) or quickness (Thief). Or both, unlock both jobs.

I think the FF tactics way worked the way it did, because you were unlocking better jobs. You were combining different jobs to make something that was more powerful that the pieces you put into it. You can't really do that in an MMO, where all classes are supposed to be relatively equal.
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#20 Jun 22 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Metin wrote:
Kashius wrote:
Not to mention it is more than halfway to cap.

-Kash


Not in effort or SP amount wise, 30 is not halfway to 50


KaneKitty wrote:
Kashius wrote:
People know - just not everyone has the time, organization, amount of friends, desire or whatever else is needed to do what you and your friends did. I'm sure it was easy for y'all, but you can't expect that it will be as easy for everyone.

I just figure if you keep the requirements for progression and unlocks attainable for more people, more people will want to play. R30 for some could take dumb long. Not to mention it is more than halfway to cap.


I played very casually, stopping often along the way, not playing for a day or two, switching to other classes, and still got to Rank 25 in a week. If you think that roughly two weeks is too long of an investment to unlock a new class, then I don't even know why you're playing a game that features persistent progression.

Additionally, while Rank 30 is "more than halfway to cap" numerically, it's actually more like 1/5 of the way there in terms of skill points, which is what actually matters. This means that Rank 30 is actually much, much, closer than you make it out to be. It's not 30/50, it's more like 380,000/1,800,000 (these numbers may be before the adjustment that lowered skill points necessary to rank up, in which case Rank 30 is even easier than I make it out to be).

Finally, the fact that something may be mildly difficult for friendless, disorganized, extremely time constrained individuals is not sufficient reason to make every part of the game take ~15 minutes or less. If you don't have a few hours a week, then a game with persistent progression is simply too much for you to handle.


Relax guys. I'm not saying it is overly difficult to get Rank 30. Kuja, you're numbers are pretty accurate on the SP requirements and I understand where you and Metin are coming from. I'm sure most of the frequent posters on this forum could achieve that inside a work week.

This is about unlocking jobs. To my understanding these are unlocked to give classes a more defined role in a party. I don't think it is going to be something that is going to make a character a lot more powerful based on the information I've seen; just make it more unique/functional in a party. In that respect it isn't even as significant as SJs were in FFXI as someone who prefers to solo can probably still do so without one. Unlocking jobs at relatively low rank would give players an early reward for doing just a little bit of work and allow them to experiment with their party role before they can run their first instance. If they don't like the role, they can scrap it and change gears without having gone through 30 Ranks of game content (HA!) only to discover they don't like what the job offers their class. Also, unlocking at 30 means that players will have potentially run through the first instance multiple times without a job.

Maybe 15 is too low, so bump it to 20? I just think that minimal effort should be required to figure out if you like the direction your class is going in terms of party play. I also think that the unlocked job(s) should get some play time prior to the first instance so that players can use whatever party oriented abilities (or whatever they add) a bit more effectively to meet the (promised) challenges that await.

-Kash

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 8:02pm by Kashius
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#21 Jun 22 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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Metin wrote:
If job unlocks were set at R30 in a couple of jobs or something like that for example, whats the problem? Sure if it was like R50 in two jobs thats quite a stretch.


Wouldn't you still need to level the initial class you unlocked with to be able to use it's support abilities? Given that a melee class would unlock a melee advanced class, you'd probably want these support abilities anyway. Unless you're suggesting that classes get all of their abilities @ R30, I don't see any way around leveling multiple classes to 50.

No small task, but that wouldn't really be an issue if the game were actually fun to play.
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