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AOE TOGGLE IS GONNA BE SCRAPPED!!! <3Follow

#1 Jun 21 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.
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YYESSSSS THANK YOU
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#2 Jun 21 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a small baby step in the right direction. Hopefully a few hundred score of small baby steps will add up.
#3 Jun 21 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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So will there be separate spells for AoE? Spells are going to automatically be AoE? What's going to be the deal with that?
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#4 Jun 21 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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So more spells to clog up my bars with because people couldnt figure out how to press one button to turn aoe on/off. Awsome im so pumped.
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#5 Jun 21 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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pixelpop wrote:
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I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.
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YYESSSSS THANK YOU


If this is true... it would be the stupidest move they could possibly make.
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#6 Jun 21 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really see how this is a problem. It only takes one key press to toggle. It is very easily done whether you use a keyboard or a controller.
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#7 Jun 21 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Agreed. I'll bet you anything we get 2x as many spells now, with no more spots on our action bars.

This is going to cause like 10,000x as more button mashing than hitting 'z' or '/aoe off' ever was.

Thanks, trolls.
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#8 Jun 21 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Not quite sure why you're so excited about this. Was it ever really an issue? I never found it that difficult to press the toggle button. In fact, I find it kind of annoying that they are now either going to be separating out the spells, or else severely revamping all the spells. Meh.
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#9 Jun 21 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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TaigaHalak wrote:
Agreed. I'll bet you anything we get 2x as many spells now, with no more spots on our action bars.
This is going to cause like 10,000x as more button mashing than hitting 'z' or '/aoe off' ever was.
Thanks, trolls.


Funny I don't recall that happening in FFXI when they had single/multi target spells.
#10 Jun 21 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Default
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kainsilv wrote:
pixelpop wrote:
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Bayohne
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I confirmed with the dev. team that in the future they are planning to remove the AoE magic toggle.
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YYESSSSS THANK YOU


If this is true... it would be the stupidest move they could possibly make.


Yes, removing the AOE would be the worst thing they could possibly do with this game.

What makes you even say that? You don't come across the various situations where it's pretty hard to toggle on for cures, and toggle off for nukes without either misclicking, the Z key not registering, or forgetting what your toggle is set to because you're switching to often. Not to mention the macro commands for the toggle just don't work. You can't make a macro set based on them, because if an error ever occurs, like you press your macro too quickly before recast is up, or there's a server delay, your toggle orders get totally screwed and the only way to fix them is to select a spell you don't want to cast, turn the toggle off, back out of that spell, and then enter your Regimen or whatever you were trying to do to begin with.

It's especially broken with the Regimens.

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#11 Jun 21 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
TaigaHalak wrote:
Agreed. I'll bet you anything we get 2x as many spells now, with no more spots on our action bars.
This is going to cause like 10,000x as more button mashing than hitting 'z' or '/aoe off' ever was.
Thanks, trolls.


Funny I don't recall that happening in FFXI when they had single/multi target spells.


Funny, I don't recall being limited to 30 actions (including subjobs) in XI. >.>

Just saying.


Edit: And adding more action bars is not the solution. Scrolling through bars to -find- the right spell seems like it would be much more tedious than just pushing the 'z' button.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 7:15pm by TaigaHalak
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#12 Jun 21 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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My guess is that it's being removed due to things they want to try with Jobs. Possibly, CONs or THMs won't be able to cast AoE spells but in their Job counterparts, they will or have access to spells that can cast AoEs. Unfortunately, it does somewhat hinder the soloability of THMs or CONs depending on how they go about this.

As far as action bar clutter.. seems like people will need to tailor themselves to specific situations more so than we do now but this all depends on how they go about this.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 7:21pm by Hyena
#13 Jun 21 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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The same people whining about AOE toggle gone are the same people whining about spam 1 removal. Ignore them as they dont know whats good for a 'proper' MMO.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 7:21pm by Imaboomer
#14 Jun 21 2011 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Imaboomer wrote:
The same people whining about AOE toggle gone are the same people whining about spam 1 removal. Ignore them as they dont know whats good for a 'proper' MMO.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 7:21pm by Imaboomer


I my self do not like spaming 1 over and over to attack. The being said to sit here and say that anyone who dose like this or that system should be ignored just makes you look dumb. People can think what they want and like what they want. I know a lot of people are ****** off that FFXIV is getting auto attack. And I am sure people will be ****** off by this. **** I know people who are ****** that FFXIV is geting dungeons. They know what they like. and to tell them that they should just shut up and take it when a system they like is scraped is just being a jerk.

I for one am glad to see auto attack added to the game. And I did feel that the AOE toggle got in the way. I just hope that the way they fix this stuff is really a fix and dose not end up ******** things up more than they where.
#15 Jun 21 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Wow that's great new this would make magic classes ALOT more interesting.
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#16 Jun 21 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
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Im excited because to me having to press enter every time I cast a spell is just as monotonous as crafting. I don't mind the toggle, I just want it to stay that way till I toggle it again so I wont have to keep pressing enter. But to me getting rid of it all together is the next best thing. Im glad the developers agree with me.
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#17 Jun 21 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Removing the button, and setting AOE or not some other way, ignoring that extra confirm is a good thing. giving more spells to avoid installing an intelligent aoe/not switch is dumb, especially since it costs bar slots and AP slots to equip things.
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#18 Jun 21 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I for one am happy about this news.
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#19 Jun 21 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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/facepalm
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#20 Jun 21 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Default
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Don't see what the big fuss is about. Disciple of War have had to deal with their abilities being AoE or single-target on a case-by-case basis and they do just fine, especially when you cross-class some WS depending on your needs.

I'm getting the feeling this is mostly to prevent AoE debuffs and AoE CC from the mages, and if it also makes that spells bring their own AoE (like nukes = small aoe around target, and heals = cone) instead of being based by job, I'm pretty sure it's a win:win for everyone.

It always was weird to see a THM use Cure "better" than CON just because their AoE-toggle was so much better...

I think I would still have preferred simply a system where toggling AoE = reduced potency/accuracy, but perhaps square have something in mind for this already (like Cure vs Curaga)
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#21 Jun 21 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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I don't believe the OP said anything about additional spells, so at least right now it's only a possibility. If that's true, I really hope it comes with a change to how many abilities can be equipped. Who knows, they might be scrapping that too.
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#22 Jun 21 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I like this change.
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#23 Jun 21 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone in favor of keeping the AOE toggle is ridiculous, however...that's just my opinion. I'm sure it matters as much to SE as it does the rest of the internet. No job should be able to cast AOE for nearly all spells...that is borderline stupid. Anything SE can do to make this game as close as possible to FFXI will be a blessing. Obviously, some of you won't like it...and there are those of us that don't like the way things are...

Get rid of this crap and bring back -ga spells ASAP!
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#24 Jun 21 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I heard pressing Z is hard.

Having said that, maybe they're trying to find a way to balance AoE in such a way that AoE actually has some sort of downside to it. As it is currently, the only drawback would be accidentally hitting something you weren't aiming for -- everything else is just too **** good.

But seriously, I hope they keep it at some sort of toggle (preferably, something outside of the spellcast itself so you can bypass that extra button press) so I don't have to find space for AoE versions of things.
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#25 Jun 21 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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I see it as pretty much a common sense move. The majority of the time you are fighting single creatures...solo and in a group. You change the game to make it easier/smoother/less key strokes for what we do most.

Besides that...you have one line of text saying what they are going to do. Stop jumping to conclusions as to how they are going to re-introduce AOE.
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#26 Jun 21 2011 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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It's called "making macros"....get rid of the action bar altogether. It is garbage.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 10:54pm by Gurasugami
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#27 Jun 21 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I suspect they will grant the AOE abilities to the repective Mage Jobs: Whm>CureAOE, Blm>NukeAOE.
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#28 Jun 21 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Everyone please keep in mind that they're not going to ONLY remove toggle. They'll have to do something else to it, and IIRC they acknowledge the problem of limited action bar slots.

So the points they really need to address concerning this are:
1) AoE toggle, while easy to do with macro (hey, I do it and have no problem with it), are quite "casual" unfriendly, and is a lull in action while casting a spell, especially if you play with a mouse (you gotta move the hand to press the enter for every spell you cast from the bar).
2) AoE spell are exactly the same as single target spells in every way except the fact that it's AoE. It's not good for balance to have people spamming AoE without any downside. Why use tanks and infantry when you can shell a place with artillery when it cost the same and the artillery only destroy enemies? For a game-related analogy, I refer you to how most people get through dungeons in WoW's Wrath of the Lich King; and that game's AoE already cost more!
3) As a Final Fantasy series, it doesn't have the -ga spells that we know. Why use an equivalent of a Firaga when a Flare toggled to be AoE may be more effective?

As some has said, apart from one line that basically says "We'll be removing it", we have no idea what else it entails. Let's just hope they can pull it off well.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 11:38pm by Enfid
#29 Jun 21 2011 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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Hmm, maybe it is due to my lack of MMO experience, but I thought the AOE toggle was just fine and am scratching my head trying to figure out why some people are so excited to see it gone. I use it all the time during leves, toggling it on or off depending on circumstances.

This certainly does not make me happy, but I will reserve judgement until I see what they do instead. Obviously they won't be flat out removing the ability to AOE spells at all, so I am interested and a bit anxious to see just how they will deal with this.
#30 Jun 21 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
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What should be done is leaving the toggle, but like done with Fable III make two different layouts for those who use gamepad, and those who use mouse/keyboard. SE if already working on this so why not just add the AoE toggle feature to the layout for gamepad users? I use a gamepad and have never had any issues with the toggle. Two quick button presses and I cast. If I need to disable the AoE effect I choose the spell, select the target, hit the button real quick to toggle it off and cast. Takes me less than 2-3 seconds to do and I do fine. My gripe has only ever been when trying to select a target I end up targeting the wrong person and the "button" scheme they set up for changing target modes via gamepad gets annoying. I think of course there was an option to change this but I haven't looked into it yet so that complaint is moot.

Overall I think it should remain but with an option to toggle it off if the player so feels. Introduce automatic AoE and Single versions of spells that share the same recast timer and it'll satisfy both sides. Possibly less coding too.

Edited, Jun 21st 2011 9:06pm by SamusKnight
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#31 Jun 21 2011 at 10:34 PM Rating: Default
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woops

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 12:48am by pixelpop
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#32 Jun 21 2011 at 10:45 PM Rating: Decent
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WFSilverKnight wrote:
I heard pressing Z is hard.

i heard its f*cken annoying.

Quote:
Hmm, maybe it is due to my lack of MMO experience, but I thought the AOE toggle was just fine and am scratching my head trying to figure out why some people are so excited to see it gone. I use it all the time during leves, toggling it on or off depending on circumstances.


ok let me break it down for you

the people who dont want anything to change enjoy the fact that it gives you a sub target and the option to change form AOE or not every single time you want to cast that spell. it also goes back to its original target right after.

the people who do not want it say that those are excessively monotonous extra steps. extra steps that dont really need to be there.
we see it as, there should never be a sub target option because you should pay attention and be able to reflex to select your new target before you cast you next spell.
having the sub target allows your cursor to imidiately go back to its original target without you having to do anything. however this forces you to press enter every single time you cast something, like "is you zure??" every friggin time.

if the AOE toggle was gone, there wouldnt be a need to press enter every time you cast a spell.
if it was modified to stay in an ON/OFF mode until other wise specified then that too would eliminate the need to press enter.
if the sub target feature was gone all together it also would eliminate the need to press enter.

on the official forums some people say they like the AOE target because it helps prevent them from executing a mistake...... this is a very very bad mentality for end-gaming.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 12:46am by pixelpop
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#33 Jun 21 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm totally in favor of them removing the AoE toggle... I always found it annoying. Plus, forcing people to think harder about which spells are in their skill bars will only make people be more careful about how they spec. This won't be the end of the world, and it will help to make partying with others that much more useful.
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#34 Jun 21 2011 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm totally in favor of them removing the AoE toggle... I always found it annoying. Plus, forcing people to think harder about which spells are in their skill bars will only make people be more careful about how they spec. This won't be the end of the world, and it will help to make partying with others that much more useful.

thank you thayos, i suck at getting my point across sometimes.
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#35 Jun 21 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm totally in favor of them removing the AoE toggle... I always found it annoying. Plus, forcing people to think harder about which spells are in their skill bars will only make people be more careful about how they spec. This won't be the end of the world, and it will help to make partying with others that much more useful.


Think harder? Why do people think that selecting Fire or Firaga was an incredibly difficult and involving process?

You choose one for one target, and the other for multiple. If you have to put *that* much thought into selecting your spells on a case-by-case basis you probably should just go after DoW class and be done with it.

Also, I don't get this "great, now moar button mashegn!!!!11!1!". Yes, because hitting 9 for AoE situations and then confirming target is more button presses than hitting 5, then whether to toggle or not, then confirming target?

Oh, it's actually same or less?

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 1:59am by Viertel
#36 Jun 22 2011 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Also, I don't get this "great, now moar button mashegn!!!!11!1!". Yes, because hitting 9 for AoE situations and then confirming target is more button presses than hitting 5, then whether to toggle or not, then confirming target?


why should we confirm any targets? our cursor is on the target already there should be no more pressing enter!
put your cursor on the mob and hit the corrosponding key/button, how hard is that?

if your on controller, highlight your target, press your lefts and rights to highlight your ability and hit the confirm/enter/X button ONCE and there you go, your casting.

without the aoe toggle there shouldnt be a need to confirm anything, including the target.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 3:34am by pixelpop
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#37 Jun 22 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm totally in favor of them removing the AoE toggle... I always found it annoying. Plus, forcing people to think harder about which spells are in their skill bars will only make people be more careful about how they spec. This won't be the end of the world, and it will help to make partying with others that much more useful.


As a mouse clicker I would rate you down if I could. I have been really comfortable with pressing actions and aoe toggle with my left hand, where my mouse is, and having the numpad/arrow keys at my disposal for movement, menus, actionbarchange, etc. The removal of the toggle is a blow below the waist for me.

And I do not understand what this has to do with partying with others. Why is it more usefull that you need to take more time to switch aoe/single. Or are you implying that people will just single target nuke, because they are lazy and don't want the hassle, and as a result there will be less unintended adds, but fights will now be longer...

Switching single/aoe has been reduced in flexibilty and I just don't see why this is a good thing.
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#38 Jun 22 2011 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Double tapping is such a chore on a gamepad..... not really, please whine less. Maybe I got used to it but if I click a spell, I double tap confirm and if I know I want to AoE or not, I confirm, toggle, confirm and it takes me 1 sec. Amazing, the game actually makes me hit buttons. There is no more thinking than if I wanted to choose Fire or Firaga. You'd replace a confirm with a left, right, up or down depending on where it is on the action bar, so it's not like you're saving your fingers from arthritis.

As it should be obvious, my experience comes from playing on pad. Now, I did try and play the game on keyboard earlier and I have to admit that it is really annoying. But I think playing on keyboard is really annoying period, it's awful, clunky and awkward but that can be partly due to the fact that I don't play on keyboard regularly. As it is now, the game is optimized for a gamepad, it's suppose to be a console game after all.

At the least, they should allow you to mark spells to always be AoE or single so you'd only have to hit the confirm button once. Put a nifty graphic on the icon so you know it's flagged for AoE. Either way, I will agree that the AoE toggle is clunky for a keyboard/mouse user. It's not even a blip on my radar for gamepad.
#39 Jun 22 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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All Materia anyone?

I'm joking we wont get that...








I really hope we get that... :(
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#40 Jun 22 2011 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
I am slightly disappointed with this development but I will reserve judgement fully until I see how it is implemented. I for one have never found the use of the AOE toggle a problem, in fact it sometimes makes things a little more fun when I'm fighting in a battle and I have to really watch who/what I'm hitting. Out of all the many things they could be doing this is surely a small thing if you compare it to say the broken stats or the re-assignment of points based on class.
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#41 Jun 22 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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rubina wrote:
TaigaHalak wrote:
Agreed. I'll bet you anything we get 2x as many spells now, with no more spots on our action bars.
This is going to cause like 10,000x as more button mashing than hitting 'z' or '/aoe off' ever was.
Thanks, trolls.


Funny I don't recall that happening in FFXI when they had single/multi target spells.


What the heck are you talking about? Almost ALL spells in FFXI have separate versions for single/aoe. Cure, Curaga, Protect, Protectra, Fire, Firaga, etc... That was one of the really nice things about FFXIV imo, you didn't need a billion different spells on your bars because of AoE/non-AoE.

Metin wrote:
All Materia anyone?

I'm joking we wont get that...








I really hope we get that... :(


Only if we get 1.4m gil for selling a mastered copy... >.>

edit: Ding 5000 posts! =D

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 9:04am by BartelX

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 9:14am by BartelX
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#42 Jun 22 2011 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah yes, I was thinking that. but. 1.4m... that wouldnt be very much in this game >.>
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#43TwiddleDee, Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am legitimately happy about this, major reason being heals can stay AoE and nukes single target. I really do not object to more spells, just use what you need, and don't equip what you don't.
#44 Jun 22 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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i never liked the fact that CON and THM could Spam AoE without penalty, in the almost every FF Series the penalty was either higher MP cost, less damage, or a longer ATB delay. its not very FFish to just toggle a button and insta multi hit.

besides more spells means a saving chance to get eye candy, sure fire may look bland but its only tier one
Fira Firega Firaja and Inferno come after it...who says playing with Fire isn't fun.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:16am by FelixValmont
#45 Jun 22 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
What the heck are you talking about? Almost ALL spells in FFXI have separate versions for single/aoe. Cure, Curaga, Protect, Protectra, Fire, Firaga, etc... That was one of the really nice things about FFXIV imo, you didn't need a billion different spells on your bars because of AoE/non-AoE.


Do you really think that every single spell was kept on the action bar? Of course not. The most commonly used ones were, and everything else was in the spell list. As a White Mage, I had three tiers of cures, one macro for buffs, a macro for bar spells that I would edit based on the situation, two Curagas - tier 1 for wakeup call and highest tier for actual healing after a fight, and various ~na spells. Everything else including just about everything I got from subjob? In the spells list - didn't need them active. Didn't need a billion spells there to do the job, don't need them here either.


Quote:

Think harder? Why do people think that selecting Fire or Firaga was an incredibly difficult and involving process?

You choose one for one target, and the other for multiple. If you have to put *that* much thought into selecting your spells on a case-by-case basis you probably should just go after DoW class and be done with it.



You aren't getting what Thayos is saying. Space is limited and now you will have to decide whether it's going to be more beneficial to have the single target version or the AOE version. There is a heck of a lot more thought put into "Hmm Do I really want to give up a slot for an AOE when we only fight 1-2 monsters at a time and my single target will be better" than just having every spell you want and toggle on-off an AOE that has absolutely no downside. There is no thought. This will, of course, only work if they overhaul the spells and make the AOEs more like the traditional "higher mp cost for damage spread across many targets"... But I think that's where they are heading judging by the announcements made over the last few months.


It's a good change. It will start to feel more like a Final Fantasy when the classes start to get molded into actual roles.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 11:00am by Torrence
#46 Jun 22 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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pixelpop wrote:
why should we confirm any targets? our cursor is on the target already there should be no more pressing enter!


This.

I know what I targeted, now let me use my spells and abilities. People complain about "too many menus" and "too many confirmation windows" and yet don't see how removing the most prevalent instance of them - most prevalent because fighting is probably what most of us are doing most of the time - is a welcome change?

While they're at it, it'd be nice to start synthesizing after only one confirmation; and it'd be nice to sell things much faster (just add in a buy-back, maybe?).
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#47 Jun 22 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
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What the heck are you talking about? Almost ALL spells in FFXI have separate versions for single/aoe. Cure, Curaga, Protect, Protectra, Fire, Firaga, etc... That was one of the really nice things about FFXIV imo, you didn't need a billion different spells on your bars because of AoE/non-AoE.


Do you really think that every single spell was kept on the action bar? Of course not. The most commonly used ones were, and everything else was in the spell list. As a White Mage, I had three tiers of cures, one macro for buffs, a macro for bar spells that I would edit based on the situation, two Curagas - tier 1 for wakeup call and highest tier for actual healing after a fight, and various ~na spells. Everything else including just about everything I got from subjob? In the spells list - didn't need them active. Didn't need a billion spells there to do the job, don't need them here either.


The big difference being that in FFXI you could still use all your spells, even if they weren't in macro's. In FFXIV if you can't put it on your actionbar you can't cast it.

I agree with FelixValmont though that the penalty right now is too low for aoe cure spells. But I think the problem is with having the single/aoe choice. Emnity on those spells should be higher and mages need to get raped by mobs when they do get hate. I also don't get why the stamina cost is so low. Healers never get in the situation that they're out of stamina from spamming cures.
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#48 Jun 22 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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3,530 posts
RedGalka wrote:
Healers never get in the situation that they're out of stamina from spamming cures.


They might run out of MP, though...
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#49 Jun 22 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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1,523 posts
Maybe they'll finally start using spiritbind then.
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#50 Jun 22 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
tpgsoldier wrote:
So more spells to clog up my bars with because people couldnt figure out how to press one button to turn aoe on/off. Awsome im so pumped.


This
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#51 Jun 22 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Enfid wrote:

1) AoE toggle, while easy to do with macro (hey, I do it and have no problem with it), are quite "casual" unfriendly, and is a lull in action while casting a spell, especially if you play with a mouse (you gotta move the hand to press the enter for every spell you cast from the bar).
]


then don't play with a mouse? For shame.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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