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I'm Back And I'm EncouragedFollow

#1 Jun 21 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
Ok, so from what I've garnered perusing the forums in the past two weeks since I've returned to the game, I'm just about the rarest thing in the gaming world right now--someone's who has come back to ffxiv and is pleasantly surprised at how much fun I'm having with the game. I played ffxi for five years, and I was among the first group to login to ffxiv at CE release. Obviously it was disappointing. I played for about a month and then essentially forgot about my account. I even went back to ffxi, but when the nostalgia effect wore off it was easy to remember why I quit that game in the first place. So two weeks ago, burnt out on console rpgs and broke, I decided to give the game another try seeing that it's free and already on my computer.
I was wholeheartedly expecting to hate it and declare myself done within hours considering what I'd read since I quit, but I was hooked back in right away. The only reason I'm taking the time to write this post is because of maintenance. Let me be clear: This game has a long way to go if it ever wants to be a top mmorpg, but let me be equally clear: the assertions that the game is completely devoid of fun and enjoyment are simply not true. I have not made a serious attempt to wrap my head around every argument and point by point breakdown of what is wrong with the game (because frankly, I don't have the patience), but here are a few things that caught my eye returning.

Market Ward Search
This was by far my biggest problem with the game at launch, and the search function alleviates most of my frustrations. I still wonder precisely why SE didn't simply give us an AH, but at this point browsing is at least fixed if not optimal.

Side Quests and Behests
Levequests were virtually the only thing to do in this game at launch, and I was excited to see they'd introduced some variance. Obviously both of these concepts need to be fleshed out before they're complete, but it's an encouraging start to diversifying the grind. Up until the recent introduction of fields of valor, ffxi almost entirely spurned questing, and it's clear SE had trouble bridging the gap to a game built around it. Yet these along with the coming introduction of instanced dungeons shows they're at least moving in the right direction.

Targeting Modes
This rounds out the three things in the game I considered so bad they were broken when I played, and all three have undergone major changes. As I stated for the first two, the addition of modes does not make the targeting perfect--far from it--but it's a huge improvement to an integral part of the game, which brings me to...

Patch 1.18
Perhaps the most encouraging thing about my return is simply that the game continues to move forward, and obviously my timing couldn't have been better with the biggest patch to date right around the corner. Obviously we'll have to wait and see just how well these changes are integrated, but when you have a struggling game, the most important thing is that you have a development team that is not afraid to make fundamental changes.

This is to say nothing of a strong crafting system, promising main story, gorgeous environments, and all the trappings of final fantasy lore that I love. I'm not saying this game is anywhere close to done improving, but in my opinion it has a lot of things going for it. Enough so that I was drawn back in and am not going anywhere. I wanted to give everyone the chance to hear a positive around here. I encourage anyone who agrees with some of my points to comment on something in the game they feel works really well right now, or something that has the potential to.

And feel free to hit me up anytime on Wutai. Hector Gaze.


#2 Jun 21 2011 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
...but at this point browsing is at least fixed if not optimal.
lol? No, it's not even close to FFXI's AH interface, which was rife with its own problems, AND I'm ignoring the fact that you actually have to walk into the wards and find the sellers on your own. Troll thread detected.
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#3 Jun 21 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Hectorthesecond wrote:
...but at this point browsing is at least fixed if not optimal.
lol? No, it's not even close to FFXI's AH interface, which was rife with its own problems, AND I'm ignoring the fact that you actually have to walk into the wards and find the sellers on your own. Troll thread detected.

While I agree with you that the search feature is basically turning a completely broken system into a slightly less broken system (it's really just a supremely ghetto and clunky version of an AH at this point), there's no reason to be a prick about it.
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#4 Jun 21 2011 at 9:40 PM Rating: Default
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While it does need a little work, I see how its trying to merge the AH aspect with the Bazaar aspect. They are probably hesitant to scrap it to maintin the 'purchase' interaction. All it really needs in my opinion is a teleport to the chosen vendor, larger and amalgamated areas, and maybe the unlisting of rare items (lets keep a little treasure hunter aspect).

I have also recently come back after a long break, and while I am not playing everyday, I tend to enjoy myself when playing.
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#5 Jun 21 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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WolfOak wrote:
While it does need a little work, I see how its trying to merge the AH aspect with the Bazaar aspect. They are probably hesitant to scrap it to maintin the 'purchase' interaction. All it really needs in my opinion is a teleport to the chosen vendor, larger and amalgamated areas, and maybe the unlisting of rare items (lets keep a little treasure hunter aspect).

I have also recently come back after a long break, and while I am not playing everyday, I tend to enjoy myself when playing.


Do us one better. teleport said retainer out to meet me in the real game world.

Seriously though, the system finds a way to be worse than bazaars and the AH. Better is not good, and what SE needs to pull their heads out and realize, is that the people do not want to talk to little pretend salesmen. They thought it'd be cool, and its not. Plus it bogs down an already slow interface. Buying things should take seconds not minutes.

ADDED: more on topic stuff.

Quests and behests, eh neither impress me and I don't feel that either are really a game defining feature. Behests are a good way to level, I don't like them personally but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the system. I do think it means we will never see traditional XP parties while behests are still the best way to level, but I'm kind of over those too.

the quests we have are pretty meh. I think its because they were added as an afterthought gift to the players, because they asked for it. it takes a long time to design and write up enough quests for them to be a meaningful gameplay element, and that effort hasn't been put into things yet. Quests should have bridged the gap between leves and missions, but instead they were just one time leves off the timer.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 12:35am by KujaKoF
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#6 Jun 21 2011 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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So could it be that people who have been playing everyday just burn through all the new content shortly after it comes out. Whereas someone who never played before would find the game to have enough content to last them a few months until a larger update?
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#7 Jun 22 2011 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
So two weeks ago, burnt out on console rpgs and broke, I decided to give the game another try seeing that it's free and already on my computer.

I see.

Onineko wrote:
So could it be that people who have been playing everyday just burn through all the new content shortly after it comes out.

All what new content?
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#8 Jun 22 2011 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin
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#9 Jun 22 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Metin wrote:
OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin
You didn't have to stay online all night to sell something on the AH either. If the FFXI AH was taking up hours of your time, I'm very concerned for your mental health. By the way, "wards work" isn't exactly a glowing approval. You make them work because there is nothing else. They can still be much better.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#10 Jun 22 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Metin wrote:
OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin


So wait... you prefer having to search for each different item you are looking for, then go and FIND said item in its respective ward, then wait a minute because there are so many retainers in said ward that it takes time for them all to load on screen, then find the item and buy it... oh wait! There are 12 different vendors IN THIS WARD selling that item, and you picked the one with the highest price. Darn, better go look through the other 11.

That to you is more efficient than walking to an AH and buying items right then and there? Apparently we have different ideas on efficiency. Even selling items, you have to factor out where your retainers are currently, then find them again, then load your items onto them, then set your prices... but oh wait, half your stuff doesn't belong in this ward so now you pay the taxes. Or, you could grab what you want to sell, run to the AH, and post it. Again, I'll take the simple route over the overly complicated route.

I won't argue with you that the wards "work". They are functional. Heck, they were FUNCTIONAL the day they were released. That doesn't mean that they are in any way efficient or optimized, because they absolutely are NOT.
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#11 Jun 22 2011 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Wards work? Sure they do. Wards fun? No.

I had fun in FFXI with the AH system and my mailbox. Nice and convenient way to check my items for sale and what I have sold. It was a game within the game. It put weight on the value of a gil.

Wards are a clunky chore which will go away and be replaced by an AH similar to FFXI, before they start charging us a monthly fee. SE knows that is a deal breaker a lot of people like myself who are waiting for this part of the game to be fixed.

So yes, Wards work...on the patience of too many players.
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#12 Jun 22 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
Metin wrote:
OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin
You didn't have to stay online all night to sell something on the AH either. If the FFXI AH was taking up hours of your time, I'm very concerned for your mental health. By the way, "wards work" isn't exactly a glowing approval. You make them work because there is nothing else. They can still be much better.


You misunderstand, AH + storage + running took time. more time than wards. And yes I would have to leave my character on all night frequently to sell in my *bazaar* this is perhaps more to do with only having 7 slots on AH but thats a different issue really, I dont think criticizing someones mental health to be appropriate just because I think the AH system (+ storage + running) takes too long. I spend less time with my retainers than I did in my mog house. Thats fact not mental health.

BartelX - most things i used to sell in my bazaar and taxes existed on that too and with the abundance of gil i really dont care about taxes whatsoever.
All you have to do is look o.o at the name of the retainer you want to buy from, hardly takes any time.... If you think this system is inefficient you are doing it wrong.

Simool - o.O you have fun with AH? I think I classify fun as something quite different than you.

Overall a few steps from retainer to ward search menu is hardly much pain compared to the back and forwards from storage to AH. I hope wards stay but I do agree that they will probably go simply because people have AH ingrained too much in their minds and cant see how much better this system is.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:09am by Metin
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#13 Jun 22 2011 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:


Simool - o.O you have fun with AH? I think I classify fun as something quite different than you.


I'm an accountant...what can say, its in my blood. :)
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#14 Jun 22 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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hahaha good shout ^^
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#15 Jun 22 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I admit I have been pacing myself, but I still haven't gotten through everything that has been added recently. I haven't gotten a single NM drop that I wanted yet, I am still getting some jobs up to level. I have to get back to leveling my crafting jobs at some point, there are a few quests I still need to finish. They really have added a lot to the game lately. While most of it is definitely not up to peoples expectations, there is stuff to do now. When I do log in, I either go for getting some of the quests done, some new aetherytes unlocked, or leves. It's nice that I rarely actaully level grind (had to grind out my last 10k on con to get to 30, but was able to solo that in 2 1/2 hours).

To the OP, Stay positive:).

And keep in mind, an Auction House is coming, and the crafting system will be changing (starting with 1.18 based on Yoshi's comments... for the crafting system, the AH hasn't been mentioned in a couple months).
#16 Jun 22 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Metin wrote:
OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin
You didn't have to stay online all night to sell something on the AH either. If the FFXI AH was taking up hours of your time, I'm very concerned for your mental health. By the way, "wards work" isn't exactly a glowing approval. You make them work because there is nothing else. They can still be much better.


You misunderstand, AH + storage + running took time. more time than wards. And yes I would have to leave my character on all night frequently to sell in my *bazaar* this is perhaps more to do with only having 7 slots on AH but thats a different issue really, I dont think criticizing someones mental health to be appropriate just because I think the AH system (+ storage + running) takes too long. I spend less time with my retainers than I did in my mog house. Thats fact not mental health.

BartelX - most things i used to sell in my bazaar and taxes existed on that too and with the abundance of gil i really dont care about taxes whatsoever.
All you have to do is look o.o at the name of the retainer you want to buy from, hardly takes any time.... If you think this system is inefficient you are doing it wrong.

Simool - o.O you have fun with AH? I think I classify fun as something quite different than you.

Overall a few steps from retainer to ward search menu is hardly much pain compared to the back and forwards from storage to AH. I hope wards stay but I do agree that they will probably go simply because people have AH ingrained too much in their minds and cant see how much better this system is.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:09am by Metin


I can see a bit of a flaw in your logic, and thats that you are comparing the wards to the decade old FFXI AH as if it was the only option, rather than considering options that should be in place. Even still, Do you really think mog house <-> AH is less running than searching through more than one ward? I'll tell you, spawning me in that room between 2 wings and running to the end to use the search window was further than jeuno MH > AH. Load times in both cases were pretty poor due to clutter.

But as I was saying earlier, and you kinda got this point right, Selling and storage in one stop is actually a pretty intelligent development, possibly the one truly innovative idea they had. However, they managed to gum it up and implement it in the worst way i can conceive.
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#17 Jun 22 2011 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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rfolkker wrote:
I admit I have been pacing myself, but I still haven't gotten through everything that has been added recently. I haven't gotten a single NM drop that I wanted yet, I am still getting some jobs up to level. I have to get back to leveling my crafting jobs at some point, there are a few quests I still need to finish. They really have added a lot to the game lately. While most of it is definitely not up to peoples expectations, there is stuff to do now. When I do log in, I either go for getting some of the quests done, some new aetherytes unlocked, or leves. It's nice that I rarely actaully level grind (had to grind out my last 10k on con to get to 30, but was able to solo that in 2 1/2 hours).

To the OP, Stay positive:).

And keep in mind, an Auction House is coming, and the crafting system will be changing (starting with 1.18 based on Yoshi's comments... for the crafting system, the AH hasn't been mentioned in a couple months).


I seem to remember them saying they would consider the possibility of AH not actually promise anything else... could be mistaken though.
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#18 Jun 22 2011 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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For a casual player like me who started recently, the game seems to offer enough content.

I even started a blog for an alt that, for a few hours, was great fun.

However, the interface is so poor and the gameplay so dry that I simply can't bring myself to play it. I have the patience to take, crop, and caption screenshots, but I don't have the patience to click so many times (and wait so long) to make transactions.

I don't see how the game is salvageable without a completely revamped interface, from the ground up.
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#19 Jun 22 2011 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Metin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Metin wrote:
OP, spot on. Also on wutai. if you need a LS to join up with give us a shout ^^

As for the market wards... I prefer it to an AH. Why? because it is also my storage. The time I used to spend sorting out storage then running to the AH and putting up 7 items only was actually quite a lot of time. Now I do both in the same place in a way that works and makes sense. Wait, but I have to run to the retainer to buy something!?? so what. again how much time and running back and forth looking in peoples bazaars did you do in XI? well i did loads. This system is far simpler and better. I dont need to leave my character online overnight to sell stuff that I really need selling. I can manage all that efficiently with my retainers. I dont have the mass hours to play anymore and the old XI system would take up my whole play time on an evening.

Wards Work.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 6:00am by Metin
You didn't have to stay online all night to sell something on the AH either. If the FFXI AH was taking up hours of your time, I'm very concerned for your mental health. By the way, "wards work" isn't exactly a glowing approval. You make them work because there is nothing else. They can still be much better.


You misunderstand, AH + storage + running took time. more time than wards. And yes I would have to leave my character on all night frequently to sell in my *bazaar* this is perhaps more to do with only having 7 slots on AH but thats a different issue really, I dont think criticizing someones mental health to be appropriate just because I think the AH system (+ storage + running) takes too long. I spend less time with my retainers than I did in my mog house. Thats fact not mental health.

BartelX - most things i used to sell in my bazaar and taxes existed on that too and with the abundance of gil i really dont care about taxes whatsoever.
All you have to do is look o.o at the name of the retainer you want to buy from, hardly takes any time.... If you think this system is inefficient you are doing it wrong.

Simool - o.O you have fun with AH? I think I classify fun as something quite different than you.

Overall a few steps from retainer to ward search menu is hardly much pain compared to the back and forwards from storage to AH. I hope wards stay but I do agree that they will probably go simply because people have AH ingrained too much in their minds and cant see how much better this system is.
You're creating a false dilemma between either having an FFXI AH and the current FFXIV Market Wards. As I've said several times on the subject, there are good features of the FFXI AH that should be reintroduced, and there are bad aspects that should stay out.

For example: Highlighting gear usable (or rather, optimal) for your current class and being able to sort/filter gear in the list are both great, simple features in the FFXI AH model that are missing from FFXIV's Market Ward search.

I'd like it to go further and also allow for an advanced string search in addition to those other features. Rather than digging through menus looking for the particular item you want, you could just type in part of the name and have a full list of any item filtered down to those matching names. You could even do that client-side (via a local text list of all items that can be sold in the wards) and then query the server as you go for the availability in the wards to make the search process even faster.

These are some pretty basic features that are absent from the Market Ward search function. There are more problems that can be addressed that aren't quite as straightforward/modular, but those areas would be a good start and would drastically improve usability and efficiency. Algorithms/functions/systems that merely just "work" are bad. The user shouldn't have to do extra work to compensate for the programmer's lack of effort.



Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 11:45am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#20 Jun 22 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Kuja, In general yes, I was considering the three city states from XI but also in my mind was Jeuno, (much better shorter run, but we also dont have our Jeuno yet, I would consider what we have already to be as good as that situation) but also other MMOs that have had AH from launch. Its never really worked properly in my eyes. I'm not saying its the most efficient system imaginable but it really isnt as bad as people are making out and I actually prefer it.

If we got AH added and kept wards as well I would be quite happy, I would probably use both since I have so much to sell.

AH
Run to storage
exchange items, get money
run to AH
Use menu to search buy and sell

Wards
Run to wards
Use menu to search
Go buy item (I'm not having any of that "Oh which retainer was it again?" It doesnt take much getting used to)
Run to retainer exchange items and put items for sale
exit

Not much difference just depends on the run distances.

Most efficient system?
->Call Moogle (wherever you are)
->Use menu to exchange items with moogle (Moogles have good UIs of course)
->Moogle takes items to storage/AH/wards
->Moogle brings money/purchased items to you
->"YAY No running"
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#21 Jun 22 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:


I'd like it to go further and also allow for an advanced string search in addition to those other features. Rather than digging through menus looking for the particular item you want, you could just type in part of the name and have a full list of any item filtered down to those matching names. You could even do that client-side (via a local text list of all items that can be sold in the wards) and then query the server as you go for the availability in the wards to make the search process even faster.

These are some pretty basic features that are absent from the Market Ward search function. There are more problems that can be addressed that aren't quite as straightforward/modular, but those areas would be a good start and would drastically improve usability and efficiency. Algorithms/functions/systems that merely just "work" are bad. The user shouldn't have to do extra work to compensate for the programmer's lack of effort.



Searches can be improved in either system it doesn't really matter, those improvements arent limited to one system
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#22 Jun 22 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
(I'm not having any of that "Oh which retainer was it again?" It doesnt take much getting used to)


Ok, so perhaps I'm a bit harsh, let say we forget what the retainer is, cos lets face it, we're human and we forget stuff sometimes. So we go back to the menu and search it again, then buy, or perhaps we go to sell something, forget how much it should be sold at, go back and search again. That same forgetfulness happens to me but forgetting something often meant going back to storage in the other system (at least for me), which in the old city states of XI was more annoying than forgetting in XIV, everything is in one place. Lets push for improving it rather than replacing it.
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#23 Jun 22 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:
Kuja, In general yes, I was considering the three city states from XI but also in my mind was Jeuno, (much better shorter run, but we also dont have our Jeuno yet, I would consider what we have already to be as good as that situation) but also other MMOs that have had AH from launch. Its never really worked properly in my eyes. I'm not saying its the most efficient system imaginable but it really isnt as bad as people are making out and I actually prefer it.

If we got AH added and kept wards as well I would be quite happy, I would probably use both since I have so much to sell.

AH
Run to storage
exchange items, get money
run to AH
Use menu to search buy and sell

Wards
Run to wards
Use menu to search
Go buy item (I'm not having any of that "Oh which retainer was it again?" It doesnt take much getting used to)
Run to retainer exchange items and put items for sale
exit

Not much difference just depends on the run distances.

Most efficient system?
->Call Moogle (wherever you are)
->Use menu to exchange items with moogle (Moogles have good UIs of course)
->Moogle takes items to storage/AH/wards
->Moogle brings money/purchased items to you
->"YAY No running"


Right, I'm just trying to say that you're praising a system for being slightly better than a 10 year old system that was made poor by comparason back in 2004-2005 when several other games came out with far superior market systems. Its fine that you like it, and sure its debatably better than FFXI's, but I think at this point we should all be aiming much higher. Once again, better is not good enough in this case.
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#24 Jun 22 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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well XI was lightyears better than any other MMO ive played so I usually judge by the best. I didnt really find anything that was like WOW thats a great idea in any other AH it was all bog standard, this is new and interesting and people's criticism of this isnt justified.
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#25 Jun 22 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
To clarify on my original post, (which I concede probably ended up with a more glowing tone than I intended it to) I was definitely not saying that any of these changes make the game complete, merely that it would be hard to argue that they were not moves in the right direction. We can argue as to the degree of the movement, but without doubt the search function made the wards better and easier to use. They took something that was completely broken (i.e. browsing random bazaars for gear you didn't even know existed), and turned it into a functional market. Does that mean that market wards are the long-term answer for FFXIV's economy? I don't know, that's for someone else to decide, but they took what I would have considered the biggest problem at launch and put it at a point where they can at least put it off until more pressing fixes can be made.

I consider that encouraging. Would it have been preferable for them to simply implement a ffxi style AH system from day one? Probably, but this was never going to be the game we all wanted it to be out of the box, and I'd rather search for signs that it someday could be than shovel more dirt on the grave.
#26 Jun 22 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Metin wrote:
bsphil wrote:
I'd like it to go further and also allow for an advanced string search in addition to those other features. Rather than digging through menus looking for the particular item you want, you could just type in part of the name and have a full list of any item filtered down to those matching names. You could even do that client-side (via a local text list of all items that can be sold in the wards) and then query the server as you go for the availability in the wards to make the search process even faster.

These are some pretty basic features that are absent from the Market Ward search function. There are more problems that can be addressed that aren't quite as straightforward/modular, but those areas would be a good start and would drastically improve usability and efficiency. Algorithms/functions/systems that merely just "work" are bad. The user shouldn't have to do extra work to compensate for the programmer's lack of effort.
Searches can be improved in either system it doesn't really matter, those improvements arent limited to one system
That's my point? Don't defend the status quo. You seem to misunderstand my distinction between the Market Wards as a whole and the Market Ward search function as a part of a larger system.



Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 1:54pm by bsphil
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#27 Jun 22 2011 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
I was definitely not saying that any of these changes make the game complete, merely that it would be hard to argue that they were not moves in the right direction.

I don't think anyone would argue against that. At the same time, I don't think anyone could argue that these changes should have been there from the start minus the instances. Should we have had auto-attack from the beginning? Maybe or maybe not... I don't have a preference, but the battle system has been in need of attention no matter which way you look at it.

Quote:
They took something that was completely broken (i.e. browsing random bazaars for gear you didn't even know existed), and turned it into a functional market. Does that mean that market wards are the long-term answer for FFXIV's economy? I don't know, that's for someone else to decide, but they took what I would have considered the biggest problem at launch and put it at a point where they can at least put it off until more pressing fixes can be made.


I agree with you for the most part here, but I see it a bit differently. They took something that they had given no consideration to before they implemented it(changes they made should have come standard), and turned it into good enough to get by. It's new, but not new and improved. Oversight like this is why the game is struggling. There are still changes being added that resemble fixes you would expect from a game in testing phases.

I'm not trying to attack your optimism for the game. There is more to be excited about now that they are in a position to work on content and improvements. You also have to realize though that many people expected the last 9 months of fixes to be done on day one. The evidence is there that they knew about most of these issues before release and deservedly, they are suffering for it.


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#28 Jun 22 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's new, but not new and improved.
It's not really new, either. It's just a hack job to make it work more like the old FFXI market system.
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#29 Jun 22 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Metin wrote:
well XI was lightyears better than any other MMO ive played so I usually judge by the best. I didnt really find anything that was like WOW thats a great idea in any other AH it was all bog standard, this is new and interesting and people's criticism of this isnt justified.


I think it's extremely justified. After 9 months, we still have a system that is inferior to almost every other games economy. You can claim it's easier than the AH in FFXI, but it absolutely is not no matter how you slice it. For selling stuff, they might be similar time-wise, but that's only assuming that you have to go to your MH to get stuff out. Most of the time, I have what I'm going to sell on me already from farming, or else I'm already in my MH to get my gil out of DB, so I just pick it up there.

And for buying, well it's not even a question. In 4 clicks, I can bid on an item in FFXI. In 4 clicks, I can search for an item in XIV. Then I have to go to that ward, wait for retainers to load, FIND that retainer, then buy. It's an unnecessary waste of time. And if I want another item of a different kind? Well, I have to go to the end of the ward, search again, then travel to the next ward and repeat the same process. Oh wait, what if I wanted a +1 item? Now I have to hope and pray that the person listing it for 5mil isn't just some jerk being funny. But yeah, wards sure are "interesting".

And then there's the fact that we are just wading through a pack of zombies. I mean really, what's the point? Is it supposed to make me feel more immersed? I'd much rather believe that I'm getting my items from a working AH than from some giant ward filled with a million characters doing the pee pee dance 24 hours a day. =/

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 5:00pm by BartelX
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#30 Jun 22 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't think anyone could argue that these changes should have been there from the start minus the instances. The evidence is there that they knew about most of these issues before release and deservedly, they are suffering for it.


I don't dispute that at all, it's clear that the game was released way too early and was missing a lot of the content and engine tweaks that gamers expect on day one. At the same time, going from horrible to bad is still progress, and as someone who thinks this game can eventually be a ton of fun, I'm willing to accept the speed of progress. Ffxi was my favorite mmo ever, and with a lot of the same team working on ffxiv, I'm perhaps too blindly confident that over time this game will turn around. I'm going to hope that 1.18 is the start of that for ffxiv until proven otherwise.
#31 Jun 22 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
it's clear that the game was released way too early
It's not at all clear that this is just a result of being released too early. From my experiences with the alpha and beta, SE just wasn't taking user feedback seriously. It wasn't until after they released and the game turned out to be a massive flop that they finally revised their development strategy. Another year or two of the same team wouldn't have fixed things. More time isn't going to get them to make Crystal Tools any less inefficient. In fact, had they just licensed a good game engine from a 3rd party in the first place, they could've potentially released earlier (since most of the development time went into making their own game engine for some stupid reason).



Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 4:35pm by bsphil
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Almalieque wrote:
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#32 Jun 22 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
I don't dispute that at all, it's clear that the game was released way too early and was missing a lot of the content and engine tweaks that gamers expect on day one.


If you develop a game with your past experiences and tester's feedback, you don't suffer from issues like this. I honestly wish I'd somehow saved the feedback that was left in the official forum for XIV testers. If people here were able to read it, it would shed light on just how much feedback was ignored and give people perspective. From experience, out of all of the changes you've seen since release, roughly 80-90% of this was brought up prior to release. In some cases, months prior.

The problem wasn't that the game was released too early. People are quick to blame the suits for wanting to profit quickly, but the real issue here was progression of development. I'll be honest though, I originally blamed the suits myself until I realized that over 5 years of development should probably be enough, especially considering previous experience.

When the release date was first announced I said it was too soon. I expected it to be ready around March, which was the tentative release date for PS3. I was wrong. Today marks the 9 month mark since release. If the game had instead released today, it would still be in poor shape and probably not receive much higher reviews than it did in October.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#33 Jun 22 2011 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Sort of hilarious that this thread turned into bickering about the wards
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#34 Jun 22 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Olorinus wrote:
Sort of hilarious that this thread turned into bickering about the wards
Was a troll thread from the start.
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Almalieque wrote:
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Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
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#35 Jun 22 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Olorinus wrote:
Sort of hilarious that this thread turned into bickering about the wards


Sadly, what else is there to talk about? =/
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#36 Jun 22 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
bsphil wrote:
Was a troll thread from the start.


How, exactly? I admitted outright that I can't discuss the game in the hyper-detailed fashion that most people do here because I simply haven't had enough time with it. And no I was not accepted into the alpha or the beta, so it's interesting to hear how many of these problems were apparent long before release. I'm simply trying to give my impressions of the game as someone who played at launch and recently returned--the fact that those impressions don't mesh with your hatred of the game doesn't make me a troll, it just means we disagree.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:38pm by Hectorthesecond

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:40pm by Hectorthesecond
#37 Jun 22 2011 at 8:59 PM Rating: Default
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I like the idea of actually purchasing something from a bazaar. But I do admit, it does not quite work in the conjested hallways, where so many retainers are clustered. I would like to see a layout more like White Gate, having the option to both run to, or teleport to bazaars. Another option is to add a AH option for materials, but I like the idea of having to find those rarer and higher end items.

Coming from someone who does not mind the system, the biggesst need for improvement in the Market wards is proper spacing. Remember how everyone gathered in North Jeuno to bazaar: people lined up to make serching more manageable. With a market ward the size of White Gate (with ~9 districts) there sould be space enough for each retainer to be placed in a stall. With the ability to teleport to bazaars (from ~9 marketward counters) travel around would be simple and fast.
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#38 Jun 22 2011 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Olorinus wrote:
Sort of hilarious that this thread turned into bickering about the wards

On one hand, if people bicker about the wards every single time a new thread pops up, we're eventually going to see upgrades to the wards and perhaps even *gasp* an auction house.

On the other hand, in one year from now, if we don't get new content, but we have the best AH and market ward system EVER invented to trade our velveteen shirts and sarouels, I'm going to be pretty bitter.

Let's just be careful what we wish for.
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#39 Jun 22 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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WolfOak wrote:
I like the idea of actually purchasing something from a bazaar. But I do admit, it does not quite work in the conjested hallways, where so many retainers are clustered. I would like to see a layout more like White Gate, having the option to both run to, or teleport to bazaars. Another option is to add a AH option for materials, but I like the idea of having to find those rarer and higher end items.

Coming from someone who does not mind the system, the biggesst need for improvement in the Market wards is proper spacing. Remember how everyone gathered in North Jeuno to bazaar: people lined up to make serching more manageable. With a market ward the size of White Gate (with ~9 districts) there sould be space enough for each retainer to be placed in a stall. With the ability to teleport to bazaars (from ~9 marketward counters) travel around would be simple and fast.
God that sounds terrible. Wards are bad enough right now, making things even harder to find by making them spread out even more just sounds cruel. Most people would just crowd around either the spawn point or the counter for that section. People too far away will never get checked.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2011 12:10am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
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#40 Jun 23 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Hectorthesecond wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Was a troll thread from the start.


How, exactly? I admitted outright that I can't discuss the game in the hyper-detailed fashion that most people do here because I simply haven't had enough time with it. And no I was not accepted into the alpha or the beta, so it's interesting to hear how many of these problems were apparent long before release. I'm simply trying to give my impressions of the game as someone who played at launch and recently returned--the fact that those impressions don't mesh with your hatred of the game doesn't make me a troll, it just means we disagree.

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:38pm by Hectorthesecond

Edited, Jun 22nd 2011 10:40pm by Hectorthesecond


Sorry Hector, the bitterness runs deep with the Final Fantasy crowd now. You may want to avoid the forums for a while. Anything positive about the game is typically taken as a troll, or fanboyism. Especially since you are new to the forums, they tend to over-react a bit. Some people have been getting a little happier seeing the updates we have gotten so far (ok a little less bitter), but until at least some of the more pressing issues in the game are resolved, positivity will be met harshly and swiftly. Even after more notable progress, I fear that there will still be a lingering bitterness.
#41 Jun 23 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
God that sounds terrible. Wards are bad enough right now, making things even harder to find by making them spread out even more just sounds cruel. Most people would just crowd around either the spawn point or the counter for that section. People too far away will never get checked.



Edited, Jun 23rd 2011 12:10am by bsphil


I seems you either did not read or understand my post. With a teleport implimnetation, specific vending retainers will be EASIER to find. One approaches the market ward counter, the same as now - except instead of having to find your desired vendor, you just teleport to them. People were always close enough to chek in FFXI, but the difference is that everyone was not standing in one Ball. People lined up orderly, making it EASIER to thoroughly check bazaars. Another option which would make searching easier is an menu ability to scroll through bazaars, instead of having to exit and releact characters.
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#42 Jun 23 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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WolfOak wrote:
People were always close enough to chek in FFXI, but the difference is that everyone was not standing in one Ball. People lined up orderly, making it EASIER to thoroughly check bazaars.
...in FFXI? What server did that? Rolanberry mart was always a clusterf*ck on Ragnarok, Cerberus, and Bismarck.

If you want to teleport directly to the bazaar or just continuously scroll through multiple bazaars... why not just take that one step further and skip the zoning step? Just make an auction house and skip the nonsense of having to "physically" walk over (or be teleported over) and buy something from someone else. Unless, of course, you can't do without the realism of buying items from a zombie-like representation of an alt character named Xxxsephirothxxx.

Why couldn't an AH system also hold all your spare gear, as well? Define one retainer as +100 slots of storage at this AH system, and let you choose to offer things for sale directly out of your storage. Everything would interface through a single, comprehensive menu. Let the main actions be to check your storage inventory or check the market (what's for sale in other players' storage). It could easily be interconnected across all cities as well, perhaps with a time delay if you choose to buy an item from a non-local AH. For example, say that it will take a static 30 RL minutes of wait time to have your retainer retrieve the item for you. Hey, that could even be an incentive to get another retainer, allow you to run an additional purchase non-locally at one time.

Very rough idea that I just threw together now, but it still beats the **** out of the Market Wards (not like that's a challenge). To reiterate, I don't want a clone of the FFXI AH, I want a system that retains some of the good features presented in FFXI's AH and expands on them. It just so happens that many of the people who got into FFXIV also played FFXI, and SE obviously developed both. So, most of us should be familiar with how the AH worked, and even more importantly, SE should have been familiar with it too. Just pre-emptively countering the people that say "well the FFXI AH isn't perfect either, I don't want that again!"



Edited, Jun 23rd 2011 1:04pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
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#43 Jun 23 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
WolfOak wrote:
People were always close enough to chek in FFXI, but the difference is that everyone was not standing in one Ball. People lined up orderly, making it EASIER to thoroughly check bazaars.
...in FFXI? What server did that? Rolanberry mart was always a clusterf*ck on Ragnarok, Cerberus, and Bismarck.

If you want to teleport directly to the bazaar or just continuously scroll through multiple bazaars... why not just take that one step further and skip the zoning step? Just make an auction house and skip the nonsense of having to "physically" walk over (or be teleported over) and buy something from someone else. Unless, of course, you can't do without the realism of buying items from a zombie-like representation of an alt character named Xxxsephirothxxx.

Why couldn't an AH system also hold all your spare gear, as well? Define one retainer as +100 slots of storage at this AH system, and let you choose to offer things for sale directly out of your storage. Everything would interface through a single, comprehensive menu. Let the main actions be to check your storage inventory or check the market (what's for sale in other players' storage). It could easily be interconnected across all cities as well, perhaps with a time delay if you choose to buy an item from a non-local AH. For example, say that it will take a static 30 RL minutes of wait time to have your retainer retrieve the item for you. Hey, that could even be an incentive to get another retainer, allow you to run an additional purchase non-locally at one time.

Very rough idea that I just threw together now, but it still beats the **** out of the Market Wards (not like that's a challenge).



Edited, Jun 23rd 2011 12:55pm by bsphil

People always lined up orderly on Odin.
While I like the idea of bazaaring goods to my zombified retainers, you should be able to buy directly from the look-up screen. Seems like a fair compromise, set up your bazaar to maximize item listings, and make it convenient for everyone to buy from.
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#45 Jun 25 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
So wait... you prefer having to search for each different item you are looking for, then go and FIND said item in its respective ward, then wait a minute because there are so many retainers in said ward that it takes time for them all to load on screen, then find the item and buy it... oh wait! There are 12 different vendors IN THIS WARD selling that item, and you picked the one with the highest price. Darn, better go look through the other 11.

That to you is more efficient than walking to an AH and buying items right then and there? Apparently we have different ideas on efficiency. Even selling items, you have to factor out where your retainers are currently, then find them again, then load your items onto them, then set your prices... but oh wait, half your stuff doesn't belong in this ward so now you pay the taxes. Or, you could grab what you want to sell, run to the AH, and post it. Again, I'll take the simple route over the overly complicated route.

I won't argue with you that the wards "work". They are functional. Heck, they were FUNCTIONAL the day they were released. That doesn't mean that they are in any way efficient or optimized, because they absolutely are NOT.

To be fair, the search function does help things along immensely. It tells you exactly which ward they're located in and loads in the seller(s) first, marking them with a star so they're clear as day. If you're honestly still 'searching through' the wards as much as you say then there's no helping you. If you're hunting around for the best price, then that's a different matter entirely, because you now at least have that option which was missing in Final Fantasy XI.

Don't misunderstand, I know the benefits of an auction house as well as anyone, and sometimes even I miss it, but the one thing I don't miss is having to buy the overpriced goods because someone jacked up the prices overnight. It was extremely common to 'price hike' and the majority of sellers, not wishing to be outdone, used the AH history as a guideline to price their own wares. Prices continued to soar and spiralled largely out of control. The market wards, while not perfect, at least encourage competition between sellers.

Those are my personal opinions anyway, you're perfectly entitled to your own.
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#46 Jun 26 2011 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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#47 Jun 26 2011 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
Don't misunderstand, I know the benefits of an auction house as well as anyone, and sometimes even I miss it, but the one thing I don't miss is having to buy the overpriced goods because someone jacked up the prices overnight. It was extremely common to 'price hike' and the majority of sellers, not wishing to be outdone, used the AH history as a guideline to price their own wares. Prices continued to soar and spiralled largely out of control. The market wards, while not perfect, at least encourage competition between sellers.


I'm assuming you're talking about the auction system in FFXI. In that game the 'price hikes' didn't last long unless they were warranted. Supply and demand largely ruled the auction system which is normal.

There were a few times I remember that prices were out of control, but this was mostly due to large sums of gil being introduced into the economy. The other cases were usually groups of RMT monopolizing specific drops allowing them to charge outrageous prices. Both of these examples don't have anything to do with an auction house system really. These are issues brought about by mechanics of the game and not the game economy.

This horse isn't recognizable anymore, but an auction house system is far superior to market wards. SE tried to re-invent the wheel here and it backfired. It would have made more sense to take the AH system and adjust it for the wants/needs of XIV rather than use a variation of bazaar. It doesn't make sense considering that most of the improvements and adjustments seem to push it closer to being like an AH.


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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 Jun 26 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
...but the one thing I don't miss is having to buy the overpriced goods because someone jacked up the prices overnight. It was extremely common to 'price hike' and the majority of sellers, not wishing to be outdone, used the AH history as a guideline to price their own wares. Prices continued to soar and spiralled largely out of control. The market wards, while not perfect, at least encourage competition between sellers.


So what you're saying is, if you're going to be paying jacked up prices, you'd rather not have a price history to let you know about it.

...

I don't think that's really all that comforting if you ask me.
#49 Jun 26 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Don't misunderstand, I know the benefits of an auction house as well as anyone, and sometimes even I miss it, but the one thing I don't miss is having to buy the overpriced goods because someone jacked up the prices overnight. It was extremely common to 'price hike' and the majority of sellers, not wishing to be outdone, used the AH history as a guideline to price their own wares. Prices continued to soar and spiralled largely out of control. The market wards, while not perfect, at least encourage competition between sellers.


I'm assuming you're talking about the auction system in FFXI. In that game the 'price hikes' didn't last long unless they were warranted. Supply and demand largely ruled the auction system which is normal.

There were a few times I remember that prices were out of control, but this was mostly due to large sums of gil being introduced into the economy. The other cases were usually groups of RMT monopolizing specific drops allowing them to charge outrageous prices. Both of these examples don't have anything to do with an auction house system really. These are issues brought about by mechanics of the game and not the game economy.

This horse isn't recognizable anymore, but an auction house system is far superior to market wards. SE tried to re-invent the wheel here and it backfired. It would have made more sense to take the AH system and adjust it for the wants/needs of XIV rather than use a variation of bazaar. It doesn't make sense considering that most of the improvements and adjustments seem to push it closer to being like an AH.
One of the problems with FFXI's AH was how limited the history was. They only kept the last, what, 12-15 transactions? Anything before that just disappeared completely. That's in part how one market could get manipulated, but that wasn't due to having a history, that was because of a crappy history. If you want to protect against gouging, you need a comprehensive history - something that'll keep track of thousands of transactions (not like that's all that much data these days), and plot the information in graphs. See EVE Online for an excellent example of a strong market.

Always blows me away when people claim that having absolutely no price history at all would do a better job of regulating prices. That's a dreamworld for the gouger. You don't even have to flood the history with fake transactions, just sell your item for more than anyone else is selling, and put your bazaar in a good location. If someone can't be assed to go check every single bazaar for the best price, you make a sale. Mannequin parts worked this way in FFXI. They were relatively rare but also in fairly low demand as well. Since you couldn't sell on the AH, a price was NEVER established. When I decided to complete my mannequin, prices on parts ranged wildly from 40k to 200k for the same items, and they sold at every price.

Edited, Jun 26th 2011 11:52am by bsphil
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#50 Jun 26 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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1,636 posts
I don't like price histories much because they only encourage people's notions of what a price "should" be, when its completely irrelevant to what the price is. So many people are guilty of going up to an AH/vendor/store and feeling they should be the one to buy item X, and they should only have to pay Y. Anything above that is outrageous.
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#51 Jun 26 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
8 posts
I agree with you Hector, I just came back from a long break and I'm finding the game to be quite enjoyable. I'm really looking forwards to 1.18 and all other content that will be coming in the future.

I'm also on wutai... I'll send you a friend invite after this maintenance

Edited, Jun 26th 2011 2:56pm by Frezzpwns
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