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Letter from the Producer, XII (27/06/2011) Follow

#102 Jun 28 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Why does "multiplayer" mean "grouping?" I live in a multiplayer world, but I don't do all my activities in groups with 7 other people.

I'm relatively new to MMOs--playing Aion at launch was my first foray, and since I've only played WoW (not to cap) and FFXIV--and I love the feeling of MMOs as living worlds filled with people I can interact with, but I find grouping up with a bunch of other players and killing NPCs to be rather tedious.

Maybe MMOs aren't for me. I've played a lot of multiplayer FPS games, and I enjoy grouping with random players on a server I like and playing exciting, competitive matches, but I just don't haven't gotten that from grouping in MMOs so far.

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#103 Jun 28 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I've got one person arguing that I'm wrong because I "base my opinions on only generalizations", and another two who are generalizing a point I made to a specific person and their specific circumstance. Smiley: oyvey


I wasn't commenting on anything other than the very specific portion I qouted. If you're going to hammer against someone, don't use generalizations. You're so much more creative than that. I'm not sure the rest of your arguments were based on generalalalalalities (I generally make up my own words from time to time), I just picked the bit about wasting money because thats an extremely subjective thing that none of us can fairly make.
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#104 Jun 28 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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dont reply to lolgaxe. at 26k posts, hes pretty much living breathing filth, his whole life is pwning normals from his basement, where hese the troll king (of zam)
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#105 Jun 28 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
Go ask a Dragoon from around 2006 how they feel about forced party play. I'm sure they'd tell you about all the good times they had LFG and how they felt the game was a good investment for their playstyle.

I have fond memories od waiting 4 hours on the weekends waiting for an invite on just about any job, knowing the weekend is my only time of the week to really make progress in the game because of my job on the weekends.

Honestly, why not be able to solo the menial tasks and require grouping for the really big and interesting content?

Why does this have to devolve into a 'hardcore vs casual' debate? FFS if you don't like it go play something else. It's not like you're married to the game. You won't hurt its feelings if you play something else that you find 'hardcore enough' or 'casual enough'. You don't own share in SE stock. You can't cheat on it and it won't take you to court for your kids and half of your possessions. It's a game, not a lifestyle. There is no debate here. Like it or leave it.

I personally wouldn't want to play a game that's been tailored to the playstyle of unemployed kids with asbergers or some other form of autism. I actually like a variety of content in my MMOs, both solo and group oriented.


hehe I feel that the story of ffxiv can draw a lot of parallels from the story of the dragoon from ffxi. I first started playing ffxi during the jp release (as i was in japan at the time) and I remember dragoon being one of the three most hyped up jobs coming out of the Zi'lart expansion. That turned out to be quite a disappointment, compared to the relative success of the NIN and SMN, and eventually the SAM. The whole leveling process was gruesome to begin with since the job was not really great at anything but tried to be unique and different. Then of course there was the discovery of the penta parties (5 DRG and WHM - anyone remember these?) that was some of the best exp seen at the time (which i kinda equate to the whole leve failing/linking phase at this point in ffxiv) which helped tremendously with the grind to 75. Unfortunately, SE nerfed penta thrust early before this became exploited by the mainstream - a sad day for all DRGs (I feel like the changes to the leve structure is in a sense a nerf to the fast sp parties). The truly dedicated DRGs found enjoyment in the game in anyway they could and stuck it out, despite those dark days where it felt like it was pointless to try and play aka find a party. But eventually better end game content was released that made good use of the DRG, so those who stayed loyal to the DRG job felt like it ultimately paid off.

Here's to hoping ffxiv winds up similar to the DRG of ffxi! =D





Edited, Jun 28th 2011 6:30pm by lightacadi
#106 Jun 28 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Default
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Metin wrote:
You're wrong on every level.
a) I also actually do all those things you mention. Work, family, volunteer and work out.
b) I mentioned nothing about length of time to play a game. I dont ever have 10 hours either.
c) People choosing solo options has nothing to do with it. I'm not meaning from a business sense or making money but from an idealistic purist gaming sense.
d) adapting the game to suit solo play has in fact made the game not as good. Joining up for a mission (or leve) is actually what an Online Multiplayer RPG should be about. Having that, but solo... >.<


c) Perhaps you should look up the definition of purist. Dictionary.com my friend. It's a singleplayer game, but you get a bonus to int when you use it. For someone coming from the 'idealistic purist' perspective, you sure spend a lot of time defending a final fantasy game which, aside from character models, is not at all a final fantasy game.

d) I'd like an example of what aspect of solo play detracts from your ability to play with other players. Keep in mind, it's an OPTION and not a NECESSITY. There is incentive to group up for most anything you do in pretty much every MMO. It's not like the ability to do something on your own will make people decline your group invites.

Most of us are aware that by not grouping up ever, we would miss out on most of the game. It's just nice to be able to complete some tasks on your own when it's all you have time for.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#107 Jun 28 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
It seems to me that you base assumptions and your opinion on generalizations that often, when more facts are revealed, become false.
That's cute. When your whole original argument withheld those "facts" and you force the person you're arguing with to work on assumptions and opinion alone just so you can use them later to show everyone just how much more right you are it just makes your point look weak. Not only that, but you focused on a side comment when your original argument was decidedly crushed into the ground was, without doubt, deliciously hilarious.

And yes, I absolutely agree. MMOs are going to stop being MMOs because of the majority. That, too, is sad.


they're not going to stop being MMOs, they're going to stop being what you want them to be.
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#108 Jun 28 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Perrin wrote:
I just picked the bit about wasting money because thats an extremely subjective thing that none of us can fairly make.
Sure, in a general sense I not only agree with you, but believe MMOs are the reverse; They're a source of cheap entertainment. However, there is a point there it isn't. Ten hours a month for $13 in a $15 game you can't beat is kind of a waste. If money isn't an issue, then spend a little more on a game you can actually beat at your leisure.

Also, If you couldn't play due to your deployment, you should have called FFXI and told them you needed to freeze your account. They'd have to do it, because you were on active duty status at the time. It'd be illegal for them to cancel your account, similarly to cell phone plans.
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#109 Jun 28 2011 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Poubelle wrote:
dont reply to lolgaxe. at 26k posts, hes pretty much living breathing filth, his whole life is pwning normals from his basement, where hese the troll king (of zam)


Smiley: dubious
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#110 Jun 28 2011 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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About those who complain or discuss about solo content in MMORPGs, far more intelligent people than myself study this phenomena and publish articles and do lectures about them when they're not busy developing MMORPGS.

If anyone's interested, Damion Schubert has a website called Zen of Design where he posts some of his presentations and comments. Damion Schubert works for Bioware and his working on the Star Wars MMO, for those who don't know.

He discuss in this presentation how MMO design resembles casino design, and actually lists a bunch of typical MMO designer mistakes, many who apply to FFXIV - it might be worth reading and trying to find them all, just for the exercise.

He has another presentation, called The Loner where he discuss the problem at hand.

As for myself, I like to solo a lot (and tend to make it an art) but I still love MMO that "enforce" grouping, even though I tend to shy away from linkshells and rigid guild structures, but I do appreciate joining pugs (whether from a LFG tool a-la FFXI or WoW's auto-group) and I really can't justify spending time playing an offline game beyond the main storyline, while I apparently don't mind sinking years of my life in my MMO characters. I do consider myself quite an oddball, however.

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 11:01pm by Docent42
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#111 Jun 28 2011 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
About those who complain or discuss about solo content in MMORPGs, far more intelligent people than myself study this phenomena and publish articles and do lectures about them when they're not busy developing MMORPGS.

If anyone's interested, Damion Schubert has a website called Zen of Design where he posts some of his presentations and comments. Damion Schubert works for Bioware and his working on the Star Wars MMO, for those who don't know.

He discuss in this presentation how MMO design resembles casino design, and actually lists a bunch of typical MMO designer mistakes, many who apply to FFXIV - it might be worth reading and trying to find them all, just for the exercise.

He has another presentation, called The Loner where he discuss the problem at hand.

As for myself, I like to solo a lot (and tend to make it an art) but I still love MMO that "enforce" grouping, even though I tend to shy away from linkshells and rigid guild structures, but I do appreciate joining pugs (whether from a LFG tool a-la FFXI or WoW's auto-group) and I really can't justify spending time playing an offline game beyond the main storyline, while I apparently don't mind sinking years of my life in my MMO characters. I do consider myself quite an oddball, however.

Edited, Jun 28th 2011 11:01pm by Docent42


That pretty much sums up my preferences thus far. I like pugging in all on-line games, as long as the pugging is easy (i.e., not like in Aion where I spent weeks finding people to do a group quest with me) and not unbearably troll-ridden (i.e., in some shooters like Left4Dead or some pugs in WoW). Otherwise, I prefer solo questing. I'm not terribly social, I'm not that good, and I hate commitment. Solo questing and short pugs fit my schedule and lifestyle perfectly. I'm not sure what that says about me, nor that I care to know, but I still do get a kick out of on-line games.
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#112 Jun 28 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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yfaithfully wrote:
not unbearably troll-ridden (i.e., in some shooters like Left4Dead
You play on xbox? I've had generally good experiences with the PC crowd.
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#113 Jun 28 2011 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally, I enjoy grouping a great deal, but not at the expense of absolutely everything else. There were days where I said, "Hmm, I've got five hours before I have to do something...eh, I won't get anything done," and avoid logging into FFXI entirely. Back in 2004, soloing really wasn't an option for most classes. I hear they've addressed that since, and I'm honestly toying with the idea of resubbing just to see what they've added, but I'm not all that invested in the game anymore.

Grouping shouldn't be the only option -- just like soloing shouldn't.
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#114 Jun 29 2011 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
You're wrong on every level.
a) I also actually do all those things you mention. Work, family, volunteer and work out.
b) I mentioned nothing about length of time to play a game. I dont ever have 10 hours either.
c) People choosing solo options has nothing to do with it. I'm not meaning from a business sense or making money but from an idealistic purist gaming sense.
d) adapting the game to suit solo play has in fact made the game not as good. Joining up for a mission (or leve) is actually what an Online Multiplayer RPG should be about. Having that, but solo... >.<


c) Perhaps you should look up the definition of purist. Dictionary.com my friend. It's a singleplayer game, but you get a bonus to int when you use it. For someone coming from the 'idealistic purist' perspective, you sure spend a lot of time defending a final fantasy game which, aside from character models, is not at all a final fantasy game.

d) I'd like an example of what aspect of solo play detracts from your ability to play with other players. Keep in mind, it's an OPTION and not a NECESSITY. There is incentive to group up for most anything you do in pretty much every MMO. It's not like the ability to do something on your own will make people decline your group invites.

Most of us are aware that by not grouping up ever, we would miss out on most of the game. It's just nice to be able to complete some tasks on your own when it's all you have time for.


c) "strict observance of or insistence on purity in language, style" - No problem there. Not final fantasy? I think the moogles disagree with you. Besides, posting once from an idealist perspective doesn't mean every time I ever defend the game I'm being idealistic. Slamming solo content is actually a break from my normal stance and I only slam it from an idealistic sense in which people are more sociable. But just like socialism works better in theory, I know that my ideal only works in theory. But in both cases I dont blame the theory but the people that have to live it out. Which leads on to d)

d) Its an option not a necessity I know. but given the option people are very often likely to choose to solo, the basis on which I say this is because like a few people have posted, I generally dislike other people in general and I'm a bit of a geek, i hate social interaction and very uncomfortable in social situations. So yes, given the ability to do something on your own will make people decline your group invites. I learned a lot from XI, I dont want a XI clone, as Ive said before I want a new adventure but that doesnt mean we have to abandon every aspect that makes/made XI great. We can have so much better, ideally, for me that doesn't involve soloing.
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#115 Jun 29 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Default
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re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?
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#116 Jun 29 2011 at 2:27 AM Rating: Default
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Metin wrote:
c) "strict observance of or insistence on purity in language, style" - No problem there. Not final fantasy? I think the moogles disagree with you.

Yeah, I saw the moogles in the cut scene. The characters haven't changed from XI. There's a chocobo around and they added in goblins... so on. Out of all of the FF games I've played, I've never felt so disconnected from the franchise than I have playing this one. Just doesn't feel like final fantasy.

Anyhow, your point about slamming solo play for the sake of being sociable doesn't make sense either. If you can type in party chat, you can type in linkshell chat. The only difference is they're not standing next to you spamming 1 on the same mobs you are.

Metin wrote:
d) Its an option not a necessity I know. but given the option people are very often likely to choose to solo, the basis on which I say this is because like a few people have posted, I generally dislike other people in general and I'm a bit of a geek, i hate social interaction and very uncomfortable in social situations.

We play a game with dragons, fairies and cat women. The majority probably fits your description but I don't think we have a complex about it.

It was completely possible to solo in XI, but hardly anyone did it. Why? Not because they forced themselves to endure social interaction. People like experience point chains. Heavy emphasis on party play may have made you enjoy XI, but there are loads of people who left because they were stifled by the thought of having to wait hours on groups.
"I tried to make friends today mom, I swear! I had my flag up, I was sitting there in jeuno and my search comment said you packed me a lunch too!" Yeah, your 'social interaction' model seems more understandable now.

Metin wrote:
So yes, given the ability to do something on your own will make people decline your group invites.

Leves will still provide a bonus for linking. Having an opinion that you like group play better than soloing is great, but I'm still waiting for you to present any decent reason why solo play ruins group play for you other than 'surely there is some insecure geek who doesn't want to group with me'.


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Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#117 Jun 29 2011 at 2:30 AM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?

Everyone's tarutaru superhero? Who would forget Atseva? Err, I mean... Mervi :o

Edited, Jun 29th 2011 4:41am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#118 Jun 29 2011 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Docent42 wrote:
About those who complain or discuss about solo content in MMORPGs, far more intelligent people than myself study this phenomena and publish articles and do lectures about them when they're not busy developing MMORPGS.

If anyone's interested, Damion Schubert has a website called Zen of Design where he posts some of his presentations and comments. Damion Schubert works for Bioware and his working on the Star Wars MMO, for those who don't know.

He discuss in this presentation how MMO design resembles casino design, and actually lists a bunch of typical MMO designer mistakes, many who apply to FFXIV - it might be worth reading and trying to find them all, just for the exercise.

He has another presentation, called The Loner where he discuss the problem at hand.

As for myself, I like to solo a lot (and tend to make it an art) but I still love MMO that "enforce" grouping, even though I tend to shy away from linkshells and rigid guild structures, but I do appreciate joining pugs (whether from a LFG tool a-la FFXI or WoW's auto-group) and I really can't justify spending time playing an offline game beyond the main storyline, while I apparently don't mind sinking years of my life in my MMO characters. I do consider myself quite an oddball, however.

5-star post, my friend.

This Damion Schubert makes a very persuasive case--in a PPT of all things. It is just too bad his talents are wasted at EA's ***** Money Factory (formerly Bioware).
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#119 Jun 29 2011 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Anyhow, your point about slamming solo play for the sake of being sociable doesn't make sense either. If you can type in party chat, you can type in linkshell chat. The only difference is they're not standing next to you spamming 1 on the same mobs you are.


You're completely missing the point also as I said idealistically, you wouldnt be standing there spamming 1. But couldnt you say that whatever it was, spamming 1, skillfully dispatching a tough enemy, working through a mission, Party chat - content = linkshell chat. Its not the chat its the content, whatever it is, plus people thats important.

FilthMcNasty wrote:

Metin wrote:
d) Its an option not a necessity I know. but given the option people are very often likely to choose to solo, the basis on which I say this is because like a few people have posted, I generally dislike other people in general and I'm a bit of a geek, i hate social interaction and very uncomfortable in social situations.

We play a game with dragons, fairies and cat women. The majority probably fits your description but I don't think we have a complex about it.
you're missing the point again, I don't have a complex about it simply making the point that social interaction doesnt come naturally to me and my inclination would be towards solo play given the choice. You back up my point by saying that the majority probably fits in with my description, so thank you for that.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
It was completely possible to solo in XI, but hardly anyone did it. Why? Not because they forced themselves to endure social interaction. People like experience point chains. Heavy emphasis on party play may have made you enjoy XI, but there are loads of people who left because they were stifled by the thought of having to wait hours on groups.
and? I never said XI was perfect, if it was I'd still be playing it. Yes I forced myself into the party play, I force myself into social situations every day for my and other peoples benefit. "People like experience point chains"? thats it? Couldnt you come up with anything better than that? XI solo was like smashing my head against a brick wall (*refrains from insults*) at the time I played not that party was a little better but astronomically better. If there was a viable option, I would have taken it.

FilthMcNasty wrote:

"I tried to make friends today mom, I swear! I had my flag up, I was sitting there in jeuno and my search comment said you packed me a lunch too!" Yeah, your 'social interaction' model seems more understandable now.

What is this? I dont even...

FilthMcNasty wrote:

Metin wrote:
So yes, given the ability to do something on your own will make people decline your group invites.

Leves will still provide a bonus for linking. Having an opinion that you like group play better than soloing is great, but I'm still waiting for you to present any decent reason why solo play ruins group play for you other than 'surely there is some insecure geek who doesn't want to group with me'.


So how many reasons do you want? Its as simple as if A=B and B=C then A=C. Adapting the game to suit the wishes of people who want to solo means their natural tendancies can be followed with no challenge to that mentality. If that challenge had not existed in XI I would not have grouped. That alone is reason enough. Again ignoring the faults of XI or the hours I spent waiting for a group to no avail. A variety of group content would be the basis of my ideal MMO. Crafting and gathering would still be solo but they're more a side job IMO. Again, I'm talking from a purist, idealistic point of view. I dont need someone to point out all the problems with XI as I know them already.
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#120 Jun 29 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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EDIT: Holy crap this post turned out long, there's a tl:dr at the bottom if you don't want to read my monologue...

While I'm not as adamant about removing as much of the solo aspect as possible from a game as Metin, I completely understand his point. FFXI was my first mmo, and it was the first time I had actually interacted with real life people in a game before. It was also one of the most rewarding gaming experiences I've ever had BECAUSE of that. Metin is completely right, the game forced you to interact socially with people, and that is part of what gave FFFXI such a strong community. You grouped with people, made friends, and made bonds.

I can tell you right now, some of my best friends in real life came from playing FFXI. I've hung out with them before, even though they live halfway across the country, and have found some people that I really have a lot in common with. I might have spent hundreds of hours chasing after imaginary items and whatnot, but I also gained a heck of a lot from the game due to the fact that it was group oriented.

One other comment:

ForceofMeh wrote:
Anyhow, your point about slamming solo play for the sake of being sociable doesn't make sense either. If you can type in party chat, you can type in linkshell chat. The only difference is they're not standing next to you spamming 1 on the same mobs you are.


Yes, but how exactly do you MEET those people that you are talking to in your LS if all you're doing is solo content? In WoW, I basically solo'd 1-80 because that's what you did (can't even count randoms since no one ever talks really). I made no social relationships, and as such, I got burned out of the game very quickly (less than 6 months). The exact same thing happened in lotro for me. Any game I've played where there is a decent emphasis on soloing, I've found that I tend to completely ignore people for the most part because I can. It's an unfortunate side effect of solo content.

Heck, even in ffxi now, I started a new account while waiting to see if I can get my old one back (and I just got the email last night saying I can, wahoo!). I've solo'd 1-30 in about a week, mainly because I can and I don't have to worry about dealing with people. Thankfully, I already know an LS and have some friends on the server so I don't really need to worry about the social element, but for a brand new player, I can see how easy it would be for them to completely ignore the group element and end up missing out on an important part of the game.

Tl:dr, While I'm not completely opposed to solo content, I can definitely understand how people think it hurts the social element of an MMO, and while I personally love to solo, I do want a majority of group content to force social interaction.

Edited, Jun 29th 2011 9:34am by BartelX
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#121 Jun 29 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?



probably not worded all that well, but i was hoping someone would pick up on my hint. ie, that even in a solo-unfriendly game such as vanilla FFXI, we still had people who devoted their playtime to soloing. who didnt think avesta was pretty awesome? just saying.
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#122 Jun 30 2011 at 12:10 AM Rating: Default
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BartelX wrote:
EDIT: Holy crap this post turned out long, there's a tl:dr at the bottom if you don't want to read my monologue...

ForceofMeh wrote:
Anyhow, your point about slamming solo play for the sake of being sociable doesn't make sense either. If you can type in party chat, you can type in linkshell chat. The only difference is they're not standing next to you spamming 1 on the same mobs you are.


Perhaps I should be flattered, but I am not Filthy, the real person who said these things, not I.
#123 Jun 30 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?



probably not worded all that well, but i was hoping someone would pick up on my hint. ie, that even in a solo-unfriendly game such as vanilla FFXI, we still had people who devoted their playtime to soloing. who didnt think avesta was pretty awesome? just saying.
Avesta was overated. There were a lot of people who could solo things in FFXI with a combination of skill, gear swap macros, and having the right gear to do it. Not everyone flaunted it and made videos though. One thing I will give Avesta credit for was showing many people who weren't aware of the soloing possiblilites, but I am quite sure that wasn't their intended reason for posting the videos.
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#124 Jun 30 2011 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Llester wrote:
Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?
probably not worded all that well, but i was hoping someone would pick up on my hint. ie, that even in a solo-unfriendly game such as vanilla FFXI, we still had people who devoted their playtime to soloing. who didnt think avesta was pretty awesome? just saying.
There's a huge difference between soloing NMs and soloing the level grind.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#125 Jun 30 2011 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
You're completely missing the point also as I said idealistically, you wouldnt be standing there spamming 1.


Idealistically this game could allow you to group when you want to, solo when you want to and not have either aspect of play detract from the other. My argument is based on how the game works and past experience. How your reasoning suggests it should work, regardless of your choice of words, doesn't really hold any weight. In reality, people want as much variety of content in their MMOs as possible as long as it is not diluted because it's varied.

Metin wrote:
You back up my point by saying that the majority probably fits in with my description, so thank you for that.

Many players do, but it doesn't stop them from enjoying solo and party play in a video game. How does that back up your point?

Metin wrote:
Couldnt you come up with anything better than that? XI solo was like smashing my head against a brick wall (*refrains from insults*) at the time I played not that party was a little better but astronomically better.

Who is making who's points for them? I pointed out that games need balance of solo and party play and you rip it, then turn around and said you had to force yourself to group and you didn't like solo play. Do you not understand that limiting a game to only one style or the other has a negative effect and not keeping a balance?

Metin wrote:
Adapting the game to suit the wishes of people who want to solo means their natural tendancies can be followed with no challenge to that mentality.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the problem is that they're not 'adapting the game to suit the wishes of people who want to solo'. They have intended all along to have content for both solo and group play.

XI was only used as an example. That game used to focus heavily on party play with little content for solo. Basically the opposite of what you have in XIV right now. Since then they add abyssea where you can go in solo or in a small group and FoV/GoV which can be done solo or in group. People are generally pleased with the changes and it's even got people returning to the game.

Take that idealistic purism **** back to philosophy class. If reason were a factor, people wouldn't have been stupid enough to spend their money on a game in the state XIV is in. If your personal reason were a factor, we'd have a clone of XI before it actually became fun to play.


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#126 Jun 30 2011 at 5:57 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
You're completely missing the point also as I said idealistically, you wouldnt be standing there spamming 1.

Idealistically this game could allow you to group when you want to, solo when you want to and not have either aspect of play detract from the other.
Ok, thats cool, I dont agree with your ideals but we already know that.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
How your reasoning suggests it should work, regardless of your choice of words, doesn't really hold any weight. In reality, people want as much variety of content in their MMOs as possible as long as it is not diluted because it's varied.
Variety of content yes of course. Thats not really a rebuttal of my point. I'll try and simplify... If people are soloing, they are not grouping. Unless you know a way they can do both at the same time? One inevitably detracts from the other. People will leave? If they are soloing in some obscure corner of thanalan they may as well not be in the game from my point of view.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
You back up my point by saying that the majority probably fits in with my description, so thank you for that.

Many players do, but it doesn't stop them from enjoying solo and party play in a video game. How does that back up your point?
because if they're soloing they're not partying, again open to be shown how someone can do both at the same time...

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
Couldnt you come up with anything better than that? XI solo was like smashing my head against a brick wall at the time I played, not that party was a little better but astronomically better.

Who is making who's points for them? I pointed out that games need balance of solo and party play and you rip it, then turn around and said you had to force yourself to group and you didn't like solo play. Do you not understand that limiting a game to only one style or the other has a negative effect and not keeping a balance?
Again you miss my point, I had moved here from idealism to an example. Moving into a realistic view XI's balance was great in this respect. My gripe is really why we have moved away from this and as you have said below XIV has the oposite balance/emphasis. and no having a similar emphasis on party:solo content would not make the game the same as XI, it would still retain its individuality, story, system etc. It wouldn't even be a kind of XI-2 that a lot of people wanted (not I). An entirely new experience could have been created whilst still following the same underlying philosophy of the game.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
Adapting the game to suit the wishes of people who want to solo means their natural tendancies can be followed with no challenge to that mentality.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the problem is that they're not 'adapting the game to suit the wishes of people who want to solo'. They have intended all along to have content for both solo and group play.
I've covered this above. No further comments

FilthMcNasty wrote:
XI was only used as an example. That game used to focus heavily on party play with little content for solo. Basically the opposite of what you have in XIV right now. Since then they add abyssea where you can go in solo or in a small group and FoV/GoV which can be done solo or in group. People are generally pleased with the changes and it's even got people returning to the game.
Thats ok, I, like many others left as we no longer have the time to dedicate to completing some of the end game content that was left to participate in. No problems adding in this kind of content at this stage of XI's life.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Take that idealistic purism sh*t back to philosophy class.
No, thats what the whole conversation is based around and you also have put forward an ideal.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
If reason were a factor, people wouldn't have been stupid enough to spend their money on a game in the state XIV is in.
No, and no need to insult people
FilthMcNasty wrote:
If your personal reason were a factor, we'd have a clone of XI before it actually became fun to play.
No. I've addressed this point above.


In conclusion I see no reason to abandon my view. My ldeal wouldnt work in practice I know that. In reality a game with the balance that XI has would take us further towards my ideal so that is what I would like. Thank you for helping me reason through my ideal and clearly define what I would like to see in a MMO.

Regards

Metin



Edited, Jun 30th 2011 8:05am by Metin
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#127 Jun 30 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
I'll try and simplify... If people are soloing, they are not grouping. Unless you know a way they can do both at the same time? One inevitably detracts from the other.

Welcome to the discussion. Finally a stab at an answer to my question. People cannot solo and party at the same time, no. What this has to do with having a game with balanced solo and party content, I have no idea. It is not a requirement for people to be able to do both, simultaneously for one, the other or both to be enjoyable. By definition these terms are independent of each other. That doesn't mean that enjoyment of either is exclusive.

No point in arguing with someone who can't answer a simple question or restate their point without trying to be deep by using false philosophical arguments.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#128 Jun 30 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
I'll try and simplify... If people are soloing, they are not grouping. Unless you know a way they can do both at the same time? One inevitably detracts from the other.

Welcome to the discussion. Finally a stab at an answer to my question. People cannot solo and party at the same time, no. What this has to do with having a game with balanced solo and party content, I have no idea. It is not a requirement for people to be able to do both, simultaneously for one, the other or both to be enjoyable. By definition these terms are independent of each other. That doesn't mean that enjoyment of either is exclusive.
My enjoyment of group play is being diminished by solo play. That is a fact. Your ideal doesn't work because of this, My ideal doesn't work because people want solo. Your ideal is flawed in the actual theory, mine is flawed because of people. I blame people not the theory.

FiltyMcNasty wrote:
No point in arguing with someone who can't answer a simple question or restate their point without trying to be deep by using false philosophical arguments.
I have constantly restrained my self from really quite pointless insults like this throughout. If you cant even be civil only then is there no point in discussing.
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#129 Jun 30 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
My enjoyment of group play is being diminished by solo play. That is a fact.

How? Please explain without using ideals, theories and philosophical arguments. How about some real evidence for a change.


Metin wrote:
I have constantly restrained my self from really quite pointless insults like this throughout. If you cant even be civil only then is there no point in discussing.

It wasn't meant as an insult. I have constantly asked you to back up your statements with a real(or even hypothetical) example; you repeatedly decline. Being told that I don't understand your point when it is not presented or it is based in a world created from your reasoning is starting to annoy me. Give me your best example, even if it didn't happen to you, of some solo aspect of this game that has ruined your multiplayer experience.
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#130 Jul 01 2011 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Bleam wrote:
Llester wrote:
Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?


Avesta was overated. There were a lot of people who could solo things in FFXI with a combination of skill, gear swap macros, and having the right gear to do it. Not everyone flaunted it and made videos though. One thing I will give Avesta credit for was showing many people who weren't aware of the soloing possiblilites, but I am quite sure that wasn't their intended reason for posting the videos.



right. that's my point. overrated or not (who cares?), avesta was someone who chose to solo stuff, in a solo-unfriendly game. As a sidenote, i don't see how posting vids of his solos made him overrated. I guess all those unsung heroes who humbly did not post videos were...better than him? okay. i guess.

back on topic:
as you said, many people chose to solo things in a more discreet manner, which strengthens my point that many MMO players like to solo, and will do so no matter what the conditions, so why not cater to that audience?


bsphil wrote:
There's a huge difference between soloing NMs and soloing the level grind.


obviously. but playing solo is playing solo, and my point is that there are people out there who enjoy it (and sadly i did know a few people who soloed to 75 in pre-ToAU FFXI). again, why wouldn't a smart company cater to that segment of their customers?



Metin wrote:
If people are soloing, they are not grouping. Unless you know a way they can do both at the same time? One inevitably detracts from the other. People will leave? If they are soloing in some obscure corner of thanalan they may as well not be in the game from my point of view.



Quote:
My enjoyment of group play is being diminished by solo play



so someone who isn't even, by your view, "in the game" is diminishing your enjoyment of said game? might want to re-examine that logic.

i think you are trying to say that more people soloing = less people partying. okay, fair enough. but it really sounds as if you're looking at the issue as either black or white. fulltime soloers or fulltime groupers. in my ideal situation, we'd certainly have those extremes, but also a large contingent of players doing solo content when they felt like it, and group content when they felt like it.

the guy who is in thanalan diminishing your gameplay experience today could easily be the guy who invites you to a party tomorrow.

the idea that the one negates the possibility of the other is hopelessly outdated. do you feel that the "solo players" are going to make it more difficult to find party members for group content? That can certainly be a valid concern, but a well-designed game makes sure that isn't an issue. So if the problem is that you are playing a poorly-designed game, there's nothing anyone can do for you.

If, on the other hand, your problem is that you want a game that literally forces grouping, well i'm sure there's something out there for you.

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 3:12am by Llester
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#131 Jul 01 2011 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Bleam wrote:
Llester wrote:
Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?


Avesta was overated. There were a lot of people who could solo things in FFXI with a combination of skill, gear swap macros, and having the right gear to do it. Not everyone flaunted it and made videos though. One thing I will give Avesta credit for was showing many people who weren't aware of the soloing possiblilites, but I am quite sure that wasn't their intended reason for posting the videos.



right. that's my point. overrated or not (who cares?), avesta was someone who chose to solo stuff, in a solo-unfriendly game. As a sidenote, i don't see how posting vids of his solos made him overrated. I guess all those unsung heroes who humbly did not post videos were...better than him? okay. i guess.
No, what made him overated was people who bowed down to him, created characters based off of him, and threw links to his videos all over the place. He was basically given tons of credit for something that others have done throughout the years in FFXI. I never said people who didn't post videos of their accomplished solos were better.
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#132 Jul 01 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Default
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Bleam wrote:
Llester wrote:
Bleam wrote:
Llester wrote:
Llester wrote:
re: soloing in MMOs.

hey, who remembers Avesta?


Avesta was overated. There were a lot of people who could solo things in FFXI with a combination of skill, gear swap macros, and having the right gear to do it. Not everyone flaunted it and made videos though. One thing I will give Avesta credit for was showing many people who weren't aware of the soloing possiblilites, but I am quite sure that wasn't their intended reason for posting the videos.



right. that's my point. overrated or not (who cares?), avesta was someone who chose to solo stuff, in a solo-unfriendly game. As a sidenote, i don't see how posting vids of his solos made him overrated. I guess all those unsung heroes who humbly did not post videos were...better than him? okay. i guess.
No, what made him overated was people who bowed down to him, created characters based off of him, and threw links to his videos all over the place. He was basically given tons of credit for something that others have done throughout the years in FFXI. I never said people who didn't post videos of their accomplished solos were better.


you implied it by saying he was overrated, then going on to say there were others who did not "flaunt" their accomplishments. it's weird that you think there is something negative about posting cool videos that other people enjoy watching. but again, who cares? this couldn't be more beside the point.
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#133 Jul 01 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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It's human nature to take the route of less resistance, if you have in a game the same benefits to playing solo and grouping then the great majority of people will chose to go sole as this is much easier, no need to take the time organizing a party or have people actually play together as a group (THF anyone). This in conjunction that the biggest draw to an MMO being that there other people in game for you to interact with makes me think that the (any) MMO gengre should entitle better benefits to party play.

Things dont need to be as different as in FFXI (in the old days) in which instead of 200-250 exp in group you might have been able to get 50 exp solo but there should be a balance which in my opinion should be somwhere arounf 50% increase for party play.

As a rank 30 you might be able to solo defeat a mob rank 35 in five to ten seconds for 200 SP, if so, in my point of view you should be able to get a group to kill mobs of rank 45, 50 taking about the same ammount of time per mob with an average of 300 SP per mob.

This way there would still be a feasable way to grind solo (and probbaly a lot of people would still chose to so it that way) but a clear benefit to those that want to do the extra work and organize and make a party work.
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#134 Jul 01 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
My enjoyment of group play is being diminished by solo play. That is a fact.

How? Please explain without using ideals, theories and philosophical arguments. How about some real evidence for a change.


Metin wrote:
I have constantly restrained my self from really quite pointless insults like this throughout. If you cant even be civil only then is there no point in discussing.

It wasn't meant as an insult. I have constantly asked you to back up your statements with a real(or even hypothetical) example; you repeatedly decline. Being told that I don't understand your point when it is not presented or it is based in a world created from your reasoning is starting to annoy me. Give me your best example, even if it didn't happen to you, of some solo aspect of this game that has ruined your multiplayer experience.

If someone making a point then adding their reason annoys you I think you will spend a lot of time annoyed on any forum on the net. I have given real and hypothetical examples, every time that you miss the point I try and explain further and have never declined.

The "unable to solo and party at the same time" is really a very dumbed down half of the point I have been making in this thread, I will try to explain the other half. Which is the social impact of soloing as being detrimental to others which should address Lesters concern about an apparent contradiction in two isolated statements I have made.

Real life example. A friend tells me that if I pass an elderly person in the street to say "Hello" because that person might not have spoken to another human being that day or even that week. The point I am making with this is that if I ignore and say nothing I'm not in fact acting in a neutral way that doesnt impact the other person but by not interacting I would actually be acting in a negative or detrimental way. Again dont miss my point here, we are all socially resposible for other people whether we think we are or not. Again another example of this would be walking into my office without saying "Good Morning" to people, this has a negative impact. This has happened in my office, the boss arrives, says nothing to the team, sits at his/her desk and gets on with work. The team think the boss is annoyed at them. Later the boss apologised realising that without doing anything, the result was a negative impact on the team.

So how do I relate this concept to an MMO? I certainly dont think we should say "Hi" to everyone we pass in the game in case they haven't spoken to anyone that day. We would spend our entire time just saying "Hi". But I also dont think simply saying "/l Hi LS" when I log on to be sufficient interaction either. (although that would be nice, some people dont even do that, I've also been guilty of not doing this in the past.) In an MMO we may chat in LS but we interact with action, not just speaking. Like in the real life elderly person example saying hello, it isn't just the speaking aspect but actually taking time to concern myself with someone else other than me. Basic "Hi" chat in an MMO doesn't do this. The basic "Hi" does at first have a positive social apsect but is very minimal, consider:

Me: Hi LS
LS member1:Hi
LS member2:Hello
...
...

The "Hi" is good and it is encouraging to see other people, just like in a real life context but if no other interation occurs then the overall impact imo is a negative one, a more lengthy chat with no other interaction would still be only neutral at best. The presence of other people is encouraging but if no further interaction is present then overall the impact is detrimental. And in this way, choosing to play solo and ignore the elderly person is of social detriment. N.B. I do not consider chat in game to have equal social impact as chat IRL. It is not the same because there is no inconvenience of self for others. Just like a txt or facebook msg is not the same as a phone call which in turn is not the same as paying someone a visit.

Lets relate that to the example of someone "soloing in some obscure corner of thanalan" to try and answer Lester. The presence of another person is at first an encouragement, but their choice to solo over group is socially detrimental. If they weren't there at all the choice of self over others wouldn't exist/be apparent. If the structure of the game was such as to enable grouping without the hours of wait (that we sometimes had to endure in XI) and the balance existed to shift our mentality away from our natural tendancies to solo and towards a group centred activity instead we would benefit more from each other in that structure.
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#135 Jul 01 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Metin wrote:
Like in the real life elderly person example saying hello, it isn't just the speaking aspect but actually taking time to concern myself with someone else other than me.

"Hello" isn't anything more than acknowledgement. If I really cared I would ask her how her day was or offer her assistance crossing the street or something. If my car had broken down and I was late for work if I saw an old lady in the street, a "Hi" would have to do. She would be lucky if I didn't knock her geriatric *** to the ground shouting "Move *****, I'm late!", which coincidentally satisfies my social responsibility because I acknowledged her and told her how my day was going t(^.^t)

Metin wrote:
This has happened in my office, the boss arrives, says nothing to the team, sits at his/her desk and gets on with work. The team think the boss is annoyed at them. Later the boss apologised realising that without doing anything, the result was a negative impact on the team.

No offense, but your team is way too sensitive and timid.

In my office the air is clear all the time. If that happened to me I would walk back to my bosses door, knock and politely ask her "What the @#%^ is your problem?". She isn't the type to not say anything (or at least throw a wave if she's on her cell), but if she did we'd know it was because she was busy. If something was wrong we'd know before she got to her office anyway.

It is possible to have a full conversation with someone while you are grouped or soloing. Auto-attack will make that even easier to do. Your points make sense, but they really don't apply to XIV. You'll have to try harder than that.


Edited, Jul 1st 2011 12:42pm by FilthMcNasty
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#136 Jul 01 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
It's human nature to take the route of less resistance


If that were the case nobody would ever do anything for a challenge.
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#137 Jul 01 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
It's human nature to take the route of less resistance
If that were the case nobody would ever do anything for a challenge.
Sure it is. People need to actively decide to do something the hard way, the easy way is just the status quo.
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#138 Jul 01 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
It's human nature to take the route of less resistance
If that were the case nobody would ever do anything for a challenge.
Sure it is. People need to actively decide to do something the hard way, the easy way is just the status quo.

The whole "casual theme" now is because of laziness, not because people don't have time.
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#139 Jul 01 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
She would be lucky if I didn't knock her geriatric *** to the ground shouting "Move *****, I'm late!", which coincidentally satisfies my social responsibility because I acknowledged her and told her how my day was going t(^.^t)
Hahaha you made me laugh so hard I farted a little.


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Metin wrote:
This has happened in my office, the boss arrives, says nothing to the team, sits at his/her desk and gets on with work. The team think the boss is annoyed at them. Later the boss apologised realising that without doing anything, the result was a negative impact on the team.

No offense, but your team is way too sensitive and timid.

Yeah, theyre all female and I'm a socially challenged geek >.>

Edited, Jul 1st 2011 1:31pm by Metin
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#140 Jul 01 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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RedGalka wrote:
bsphil wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
It's human nature to take the route of less resistance
If that were the case nobody would ever do anything for a challenge.
Sure it is. People need to actively decide to do something the hard way, the easy way is just the status quo.

The whole "casual theme" now is because of laziness, not because people don't have time.

False.

The "casual theme" exists because your mom plays Bejeweled, your girlfriend plays Facebook games, your sister played Guitar Hero one time with her friends at a kegger, and your buddy from high school thinks Angry Birds is totally Hot ****: The Game, even though you told him to play the original version earlier that year for free.

People who did not ordinarily play video games--as loosely defined as they are--are now playing video games. And they have money. These people in your life are the reason existing franchises are becoming "streamlined" and "more accessible" and "fun for everybody;" all the game publishers want a cut of that sweet, casual cash cake. The way to do this, they explain to themselves while surrounded by yes-men and investors, is to lower the barrier of entry. Casuals suffer emotional breakdowns and **** themselves crying at the first sign of failure (I guess, I don't know; what other explanation is there?) so difficulty never ramps up by any considerable degree.

This has nothing to do with laziness, however, unless you mean laziness on the part of game companies. But that is a different story, isn't it?

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#141 Jul 01 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quite frankly, I'm too lazy to read the discussion regarding what is hardcore, what is casual, why one sucks and the other doesn't, so forgive me if I repeat something already stated.


I approve of the vision they have where both casual and core players can enjoy the same game. I have friends who couldn't keep up with my hardcore playing of FFXI, as well as my girlfriend. They fell behind myself and a few other rl friends and felt they couldn't keep up so they quit.

The game then became less fun for me because half of my enjoyment comes from being able to play with friends. I like the idea that they can enjoy the same game without having to kill themselves to keep up. This is why I like things like Rest XP in WoW, because while some people may think someone shouldn't be rewarded for not playing, I don't feel they should be punished either, since they pay the same monthly fee as I do and keep the servers up just the same.
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