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Update on Intances by rep/YoshiFollow

#52 Jul 07 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
The point is that it's an old & bad method.


Yes, you're right. Regardless, our point is the same, they won't be doing this old bad method for simultaneous content, so we shouldn't assume it's going to be Dynamis 2.0


I'd still expect to see lockouts. Probably not every 3 days like XI, but don't be surprised if there are daily lockouts.


probably same reset as guildleves
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#53 Jul 07 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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TurboTom wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
The point is that it's an old & bad method.


Yes, you're right. Regardless, our point is the same, they won't be doing this old bad method for simultaneous content, so we shouldn't assume it's going to be Dynamis 2.0


I'd still expect to see lockouts. Probably not every 3 days like XI, but don't be surprised if there are daily lockouts.


Yeah but I wouldn't expect this for technical reasons, more for the simple reason that it's an mmo with little content, and they want us to play it longer by adding limiting factors.
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#54 Jul 07 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
Yeah but I wouldn't expect this for technical reasons, more for the simple reason that it's an mmo with little content, and they want us to play it longer by adding limiting factors.


Yeah, I should have been more clear, that was my point.
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#55 Jul 07 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
FFXI was what, 1 group per instance at a time?


No. "Instanced" means that a new copy of that zone is generated for each group that enters. The only content I can recall that was instanced was Assault (at least when I stopped playing.) Maybe BCNM? I don't remember, it's been a while.

But now that I think of it, maybe Dyanmis and Limbus areas were instanced in the sense that they reset once people left? Although, that's a ****-poor way of implementing a system, I guess in the time that it took me to write all of this, I've found a contradiction in my own argument. Either way, in this day and age, I'd never expect to see a system like this again, from a technological standpoint it makes no sense.


good point. Anyways, I still stand by that only letting one, or a small group of people engage in something at the same time is pretty weak, and it would be a huge flaw in game design, especially since every other game on the market now seems to have no problems with it. I remember waiting for other groups to be done with BCNMs so that we could start ours, and theres no way I'd put up with that 8 years later.
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#56 Jul 07 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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What this entire conversation has been missing - or perhaps forgetting would be a better word - is context. Yoshi-P's comments about the need for restrictions to entry was in reference to the discussion about why it was necessary to place a minimum/maximum party size limit on the dungeons. To which his response was that there was a need to artificially restrict entrance to dungeons. I am not saying that that is the correct way to go about it, but his comments about restrictions in this context were referring to weeding out groups incapable or unwilling to find the right number of entrants.
#57 Jul 07 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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yeah... Hulan has got it. Still pretty lame if you ask me. I strongly dislike minimum entry requirements because waiting for the perfect number of people to join you for an encounter is lame... and you see this now in XI - assualt is pretty much impossible for people to do because of those requirements and the fact that so few people are interested in doing the content anymore.
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#58 Jul 07 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm so confused....

So is it a dynamis-type one group at a time thing, or true instance, like raids in other MMOs?

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 6:08pm by Restyoneck
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#59 Jul 07 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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yfaithfully wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:

I'm sorry, but nothing you said is correct. All of those events you mentioned are not instanced. FFXI has no instances at all. XIV can make multiple copies of a zone at a whim. (This is shown when you go into interactive cut-scenes, boss fights, and those escort quests.) FFXI literally has copies of the same battle field side-to-side distanced equally apart out of shout range. That's not instancing. It's a clever way around it, but it's still not instancing.

In the case of Dynamis, it was literally just one zone that could be reserved ahead of time with an item. Same with the PvP zones that FFXI had. That's not instancing, either.
Edited, Jul 7th 2011 11:08am by UltKnightGrover


A technical question--isn't what you've described in FFXIV actually phasing? And is there a difference between phasing and instancing?

In FFXIV, most of the leves are phased, are they not? You're in the same zone as other players, but they can't claim your mobs or even see them until you fight them, right? Aren't they using the same technique for story cut scenes?

Maybe there is no technical difference between phasing and instances?



You're correct about guildleves. Those are phased, you're in the same zone as other players and unable to claim mobs. The main scenario-storyline quests and boss battles are actually instanced, though. There are some NPC quests that were added a few patches ago that are phased like guildleves.

According to your sig, you're rank 11. The rank 15 main scenario quest (if I remember right, it's been a while) is the first time you actually see a boss battle instance (aside from the opening scenes of course), and you can clearly see a difference between that and guildleve phasing.



Edited, Jul 7th 2011 4:21pm by UltKnightGrover
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#60 Jul 07 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Restyoneck wrote:
I'm so confused....

So is it a dynamis-type one group at a time thing, or true instance, like raids in other MMOs?

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 6:08pm by Restyoneck



It seems that it's going to be like raids in other MMOs, but people took Yoshida's words out of context and thought it would be like Dynamis.
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#61 Jul 07 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
weeding out groups incapable or unwilling to find the right number of entrants.


Oh, no; that's what he meant!?

If there's minimum number of people required to enter, that's just going to be foolish. No skill at all, in that case... just get the required number to do the required objectives. I used to love low-manning Limbus, or finding a way to solo/duo something difficult; I hope they're not taking that away. >_<
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#62 Jul 07 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Hulan wrote:
weeding out groups incapable or unwilling to find the right number of entrants.


Oh, no; that's what he meant!?

If there's minimum number of people required to enter, that's just going to be foolish. No skill at all, in that case... just get the required number to do the required objectives. I used to love low-manning Limbus, or finding a way to solo/duo something difficult; I hope they're not taking that away. >_<

To quote the specific section about this comment.
Yoshi-P wrote:
Try playing it and if there are a lot of people saying they want to try the battles with smaller groups of people, it won't be too hard to ease up on dungeon-related requirements. I will be keeping an eye on everyone's comments and if necessary I will implement a mini-patch to ease up on the restrictions.
Edit: Fixed Quote tags

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 9:23pm by Hulan
#63 Jul 07 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
as long as operation continues


Won't be much longer if only one group at a time can do a dungeon. This development group really needs to come out of it's cave. The old technology they're using blows my mind in a bad way.
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#64 Jul 07 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
I'm sorry, but nothing you said is correct. All of those events you mentioned are not instanced. FFXI has no instances at all.


MMM was definitely instanced. Salvage and assault were also instanced. Garrisons and campaign battles qualify also. It is not a requirement that the content be restricted to a specific zone; only that the content be specific to the players who are participating regardless of where it takes place.

Although guildleves take place in open world, the mobs related to the event cannot be interacted with by players who are not participating. IIRC, two players completing the same leve simultaneously but not grouped, cannot interact with each other's instance of the leve.

Hulan wrote:
I am not saying that that is the correct way to go about it, but his comments about restrictions in this context were referring to weeding out groups incapable or unwilling to find the right number of entrants.

In the context of "content occupation", also mentioned in Yoshi's post, it doesn't make any sense. People have been starved for this content for over 9 months. How you could have the first true dose of additional content 'nerfed' because there are not enough players willing and able to find a group for it? I think the context was keeping players who like to operate in smaller groups in mind and not at all about difficulty finding people interested in the event.

You will undoubtedly run into groups or linkshells who are not willing to group up with other people. I get the feeling that if adjustments are made to accommodate smaller groups, it will have something to do with sharing rather than being able to find interest.




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#65 Jul 08 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
I'm sorry, but nothing you said is correct. All of those events you mentioned are not instanced. FFXI has no instances at all.


MMM was definitely instanced. Salvage and assault were also instanced. Garrisons and campaign battles qualify also. It is not a requirement that the content be restricted to a specific zone; only that the content be specific to the players who are participating regardless of where it takes place.





Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances. Assault and MMM were more examples of them being clever and trying to hide this. (Pseudo-instancing)

MMM was several existing copies of the same dungeon, and the entry runes (the tabula/runes, in this case) flipped flags on what part of the dungeon was open and what wasn't. Same with Nyzul Isle (even though this was random). This is evident in that the .DATs for the MMM dungeon were there since Wings of the Goddess release, but went unused.

Same with Walk of Echoes, we were confused on why it wasn't a continuous zone but just a bunch of identical separated battlefields.



Quote:
Although guildleves take place in open world, the mobs related to the event cannot be interacted with by players who are not participating. IIRC, two players completing the same leve simultaneously but not grouped, cannot interact with each other's instance of the leve.


Guildleves isn't instancing. That's more akin to phasing.






Edited, Jul 8th 2011 1:11am by UltKnightGrover
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#66 Jul 08 2011 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances. Assault and MMM were more examples of them being clever and trying to hide this. (Pseudo-instancing)


For all intents and purposes, the exact same thing as an instance. The variations are so slight that it's pointless to try and categorize them by different names. The idea remains the same.

Quote:
Guildleves isn't instancing. That's more akin to phasing.


I disagree. Guildleves are not phasing. Phasing changes elements of gameplay between players who have or have not completed certain objectives.

Example: During a quest you destroy a bridge to thwart angry beastmen from storming across and pillaging your village. From that point on, any time you visit the area where the bridge once existed, all you see now is splintered wood. Players who have not completed that quest or objective would still see the original bridge.

Another good example would be a rescue quest for an NPC. You are tasked with saving some poor ******* trapped in an orc hut. When you leave the village you got the quest from he is not present, but after completion of the quest the NPC is visible, possibly with dialog thanking you for saving him and an offer to sell you some item that wasn't available before.

Leves don't qualify because the affected area is only affected during the objective timer. It is possible that I have not come across the specific leve you are talking about, but I haven't completed any of them that have made some impact on my ability to interact with the world. Even if there are some, only those are examples of phasing.
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#67 Jul 08 2011 at 3:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
I take this to mean it will be similar to Nyzul Isle Assault in FFXI or Moblin Maze Mongers.

If too many parties were already in the instance, you would have ot wait in line and fight to get in. They are probably trying to avoid this, or at least keep the threshold high, and potentially kicking people out who do not meet certain criteria when it's congested.


If it would work like Nyzul Isle, I don't see the problem... I've never waited long at the gate in Nyzul Isle after the first month. At the highest, 10 mins. Besides, the whole gate thing is something that would pace players to obliterate the dungeon in two weeks, like someone else has said. It's still a matter of casual vs hardcore though, I don't think we should expect to see the same kind of dungeons or high difficulty of instances like we had in FFXI in this game. I hope so, I just don't see it happening. Besides, I don't have the time like I used to, heck even 2 hours a day playing a game is out of the question this week for me and I'm a pretty hardcore gamer :p So maybe, this kind of casual approach to playing a MMO would work for me nowadays. I just have to set my standards a little lower perhaps, not expecting a hardcore dungeon this soon in the game's life, where you'll spend weeks of trying to figure everything out. It's too soon to expect anything substantual in terms of a time-sink endeavor in FFXIV at this point, first they'll probably fill the game with fun things to do that doesn't take that long to develop. Later on we'll probably see something like Dynamis or Sky or Sea. I think this is more like the BCNM type of fights we've seen, combined with MMM. We'll see :)
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#68 Jul 08 2011 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances. Assault and MMM were more examples of them being clever and trying to hide this. (Pseudo-instancing)


For all intents and purposes, the exact same thing as an instance. The variations are so slight that it's pointless to try and categorize them by different names. The idea remains the same.

Quote:
Guildleves isn't instancing. That's more akin to phasing.


I disagree. Guildleves are not phasing. Phasing changes elements of gameplay between players who have or have not completed certain objectives.

Example: During a quest you destroy a bridge to thwart angry beastmen from storming across and pillaging your village. From that point on, any time you visit the area where the bridge once existed, all you see now is splintered wood. Players who have not completed that quest or objective would still see the original bridge.

Another good example would be a rescue quest for an NPC. You are tasked with saving some poor ******* trapped in an orc hut. When you leave the village you got the quest from he is not present, but after completion of the quest the NPC is visible, possibly with dialog thanking you for saving him and an offer to sell you some item that wasn't available before.

Leves don't qualify because the affected area is only affected during the objective timer. It is possible that I have not come across the specific leve you are talking about, but I haven't completed any of them that have made some impact on my ability to interact with the world. Even if there are some, only those are examples of phasing.


The idea is that you go through phases in the zone that change the appearance of the zone. The places all have the same geometry but different mobs will have spawned in different places, buildings that were once upright could be burning peaces of rubble. Phasing was created to give the player the feeling of changing the world in an MMO, which MMO's often lack.
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#69 Jul 08 2011 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
The idea is that you go through phases in the zone that change the appearance of the zone. The places all have the same geometry but different mobs will have spawned in different places, buildings that were once upright could be burning peaces of rubble. Phasing was created to give the player the feeling of changing the world in an MMO, which MMO's often lack.


Thanks for the reiteration. You said exactly what I said, but I disagree with MMOs lacking phasing. It may not get much use by SE, but it has been around for years.

Also, it isn't there to make you feel things are changing. It is a dynamic used to progress a quest or storyline. Either way, guildleves don't fall into this category unless they have a dynamic effect on the world. There may be several leves like this, but I haven't come across one and they are definitely the minority if they do exist.
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#70 Jul 08 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
[Phasing] isn't there to make you feel things are changing. It is a dynamic used to progress a quest or storyline.


What's the difference? All stories need to feel like they're changing, and they all depend on progress through some sort of quest.
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#71 Jul 08 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
[Phasing] isn't there to make you feel things are changing. It is a dynamic used to progress a quest or storyline.


What's the difference? All stories need to feel like they're changing...


Read the quote in the context of the discussion about phasing and you should understand it.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Another good example would be a rescue quest for an NPC. You are tasked with saving some poor ******* trapped in an orc hut. When you leave the village you got the quest from he is not present, but after completion of the quest the NPC is visible, possibly with dialog thanking you for saving him and an offer to sell you some item that wasn't available before.


The difference is dynamics. Not all quests or storylines need to have a lasting impact on the world around you. Phasing is used when the dynamics of the world change significantly enough that it is necessary to change the structure of a zone, add or remove NPCs or something along these lines.







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#72 Jul 08 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Phasing is used when the dynamics of the world change significantly enough that it is necessary to change the structure of a zone, add or remove NPCs or something along these lines.


Adding NPC monsters for somebody isn't very different from adding a NPCs, though. All of the examples seems like slightly different uses of the same thing, or possibly a change in degree and duration of usage.
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#73 Jul 08 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Adding NPC monsters for somebody isn't very different from adding a NPCs, though. All of the examples seems like slightly different uses of the same thing, or possibly a change in degree and duration of usage.


It is different when the NPCs are only added/removed for people who have progressed through a certain quest or event. In the example, the ability to see and purchase items from the NPC is otherwise not available to people who have not completed that quest.

Not sure if you have played WoW or not, but there are much better examples there so I'll give you one.

There is a zone called Storm Peaks with a quest chain to open up Sons of Hodir reputation in an area called Dun Niffelem(sp?). There is a large area of the zone where this quest chain takes place. The area is split into two phases based on the completion of a quest that is only offered after two other conditions are met. You need to have a certain reputation level and you also need to complete the prerequisite quest. Sounds normal right? Well it is up until you complete the next quest that is offered.

After you complete that quest and return to the area, that part of the zone is completely different. There are more NPCs there offering other quests, parts of the landscape have changed and all of the mobs have been removed and replaced by different mobs. It might just seem like a simple change, but it completely changes the dynamic of the zone. Here is why...

Someone who has completed the quest chain could be standing in the same exact location(relatively) as someone who has not, yet these people will not be able to see each other. They basically exist in two different instances of that area until the second person completes the quest. At that point they will join the first person along with everyone else who has completed that event. It is quite a leap from just adding NPCs.
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#74 Jul 09 2011 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:

Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances.


We did play the Same FFXI right? cuase it doesn't sound like it... XI was full of small instances from the BCNMs to the Promivian runs. Every mission boss fight was it's own private instance.

Maybe we just have differing Ideas on what an Instance is... Or you're just being pointlessly contrary to try and prove some assinine point that no one but you realy cares about.
*sigh* After all in a loose fashion forcing zone boundries to include a break point to load the new zone made every zone into a large continuosly active instance.
Very similar to how DDO was set up actualy, just no one I met in that game was trying to convince themselves it wasn't a large cluster of instances.
#75 Jul 09 2011 at 7:33 AM Rating: Decent
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zurinadrg wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:

Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances.


We did play the Same FFXI right? cuase it doesn't sound like it... XI was full of small instances from the BCNMs to the Promivian runs. Every mission boss fight was it's own private instance.

Maybe we just have differing Ideas on what an Instance is... Or you're just being pointlessly contrary to try and prove some assinine point that no one but you realy cares about.
*sigh* After all in a loose fashion forcing zone boundries to include a break point to load the new zone made every zone into a large continuosly active instance.
Very similar to how DDO was set up actualy, just no one I met in that game was trying to convince themselves it wasn't a large cluster of instances.


I don't think it's fair of you to flame him beause you think that he's wrong. in fact, he's a lot closer to the reality of the situation than you are. First, an "instanced" area is a unique copy of a zone for each group or individual player, depending. Just because you change screens in ffxi doesn't make each zone instanced, that's mainly due to hardware restrictions. Promyvion was not instanced; if you will recall, any number of groups could enter at any given time, and in many cases this was endlessly frustrating while people were trying to down memory receptacles. When I stopped playing, the only content that was instanced was assault, and that was to my knowledge, there's a possibility that only one group could run any one assault at a time, similarly to BCNM, where each group had to wait his turn before entering. (at least from what I remember, could have been patched at some point.)

We could argue all day about this, but I'll just say that the game could have thrived if a lot of its content had been instanced.
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#76 Jul 09 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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aj7418 wrote:
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However, as long as operation continues, taking the first steps toward change is necessary.


First off this is a literal translation and the Japanese is more along the lines of "While we continue working on this, these first few steps are necessary for future changes." There is no sense of danger in his post.


I agree that some of the meaning was likely lost in translation. It would be highly uncharacteristic of Yoshi to hint at doom in the slightest. I've never seen him less than upbeat in his correspondence to the players.

As for instance limitations, I'm willing to give the guy a break. Yeah, even me.

The whole point of this note is to let you know he's fast-tracking instanced content for the sake of giving players something to do and also to get feedback on the implementation. And I suppose that's alright because if there's one thing I know everyone is quite capable of doing is to complain about any little part of it that sucks, and at least they ought to be taking notes.

So maybe some good will come of it amidst the inevitable rage-quitting and re-rage-quitting and "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry"-hulk-smash-controller-quitting.
#77 Jul 09 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Its just like the quests, they're going to release it and the rewards will be substandard, and their still wont be enough instances to justify a level 50 character or the grind to 50. The "as long as operation continues" makes sense, I mean were you really naive enough to think that if this game doesn't start picking up players instead of loosing them that SE would continue to invest time and talent into it? I by no means think the instances are going to be bad, but is it enough content to encourage my friends to play? No, probably not...

Either way its a pessimistic letter and when a developer doesn't have faith in a patch how could I?
#78 Jul 09 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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TurboTom wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:

Incorrect. Again, Final Fantasy XI did not have any instances.

In fact, he's a lot closer to the reality of the situation than you are. First, an "instanced" area is a unique copy of a zone for each group or individual player, depending.


By that definition you gave, all of those events I mentioned from FFXI qualify as instances. Why is he saying I am incorrect? Sure there are different types of instances, but having restrictions due to game design, server population or otherwise doesn't change that fact. The entire promy area was not instanced, but the BCNM style battles were. Assaults also qualify as instances. There is no requirement that an instance be able to support multiple copies running simultaneously.

As critical as I have been of the guildleve system for being boring and repetitive, I will give SE credit for the idea of phasing them. I'm generally a fan of having people in MMOs interact with each other, but for the sake of advancement I think the way leves are instance saves a lot of headache.

I'm ok with SE adding instances, but I would like to see more events similar to behest, but created for larger groups to participate in. If their plan with these dungeons is to set a high number of entrants as a requirement then I can actually see this as a good thing.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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