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Battle Reform: Enmity (07/06/2011)Follow

#1 Jul 06 2011 at 4:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Patch 1.18 is scheduled to usher in large-scale changes to enmity calculation, which will be accompanied by the introduction of a new UI element displaying enemy enmity.
Changes to Enmity Calculation
Enmity is the element of the game that governs the target of an enemy’s hostility. Performing certain actions increases an enemy’s enmity towards you; the enemy will attempt to attack the player or NPC who has generated the highest amount of enmity. Skillful control of enmity forms the cornerstone of effective partying.

The current method of enmity calculation has been deemed excessively complicated, rendering the employment of battle strategies problematic. This was made worse by having no way of checking the constantly changing enmity values. Patch 1.18 will see the simplification of the enmity system to one based on accumulated actions. Furthermore, a new UI element will be introduced that allows players to see their foes’ enmity levels at all times, making enmity control a far more tangible affair.



Relationship Between Actions and Enmity
Actions that generate enmity can be divided into two main categories: direct and indirect. The former refers to actions that inflict damage or enfeebling status effects upon a foe, while the latter encompasses those that heal or fortify an ally. Different actions will increase enmity to varying extents, with the strength of the delivery (such as damage dealt or HP restored) also playing a part in the calculation. Enmity will be reset for players who are KO’d or otherwise incapacitated from battle for a certain period of time.



Making Enmity Visible
In order to allow enmity control to be readily incorporated into battle strategy, an icon will be implemented which displays an enemy's enmity. This icon will appear to the left of the enemy’s HP gauge, and through a color scheme will inform players of their foe’s enmity level and behavior.


No icon The enemy is not taking action against you.
Green, orange, or red icon The enemy is taking action against you. Enmity level is indicated from low to high in the order of green, orange, and red, indicating a progressively greater likelihood that the enemy will target you.
Blinking red icon You are incurring the highest level of enmity among targets engaging the enemy and are being targeted.

Improvements to the enmity system are scheduled to continue in patch 1.19 and beyond. Abilities that affect enmity will also be subject to adjustments.




Edited, Jul 6th 2011 6:31am by Demilia
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#2 Jul 06 2011 at 5:26 AM Rating: Default
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I know a lot of people dont like this but I am ok with it.
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#3 Jul 06 2011 at 5:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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tpgsoldier wrote:
I know a lot of people dont like this but I am ok with it.



I'm guessing the part people have problems with isn't changing how enmity works (I like the new way as it's described), but rather the fact that some people need a visual indicator to tell them that they're doing something stupid.
#4 Jul 06 2011 at 6:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Patch 1.18 will see the simplification of the enmity system to one based on accumulated actions. Furthermore, a new UI element will be introduced that allows players to see their foes’ enmity levels at all times, making enmity control a far more tangible affair.


No complaints here, any Gladiator that has played beyond the confines on leves will be happy for a simpler enmity system. As for the UI element it's not as bad as many believe it is, i see it as a positive. An indicator when a tank needs to step it up or a melee to cool it down.
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#5 Jul 06 2011 at 6:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Having the pull generate 0 enmity was by no means 'complicated' or 'skillful'.

The skill component is almost completely removed by the fact that it's a colored icon and not a meter. This would have made it easy to see exactly how much enmity an action generated and allow you to gauge what abilities you could pull off without ripping aggro from your tank. Even if it was in terms of how much of a bar and not a raw number.

The system they're adding doesn't make sense to me. It isn't like there are only 4 levels of threat. I don't understand it.
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#6 Jul 06 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Initially I was against the idea, but what is described here is fine with me. A RAG icon is better than what I imagined some kind of bar/meter going up in battle.
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#7 Jul 06 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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To FilthMcnasty, the coloured icon is probably because they wanted to make it more of a guideline than an actual percentage... i.e. "Hey Mr DD Job, your enmity is orange, be careful ok?"

This (a) discourages number crunching and (b) still means there's an element of skill involved to hate management.

It's a good idea.
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#8 Jul 06 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
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Patch 1.18 will see the simplification of the enmity system to one based on accumulated actions. Furthermore, a new UI element will be introduced that allows players to see their foes’ enmity levels at all times, making enmity control a far more tangible affair.


No complaints here, any Gladiator that has played beyond the confines on leves will be happy for a simpler enmity system. As for the UI element it's not as bad as many believe it is, i see it as a positive. An indicator when a tank needs to step it up or a melee to cool it down.


From what I read here this system will actually not help the tank at all, instead of a visual UI in which you can check each and every members threat value it appears that you will only be able to check you own position in regards to the mob.

As a tank you should always get the blinking red but you won't actually know how close another party member is to "steal" hate from you, you will simply notice that your icon will just turn to solid red and the mob will hit someone else.

For all other party members it will be more usefull as once they get a solid red light they will know that they are in danger of taking threat from the tank.
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#9 Jul 06 2011 at 6:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think if you're going to put in this sort of system, this is a pretty nice way of doing it for reasons that Liki has already touched on.
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#10 Jul 06 2011 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what this is supposed to add to the game. Maybe it's due to my years of playing FFXI but I've always figured I was pulling too much emnity when the mob turned and bit me in the ***. As long as you can see how much emnity you have there's less danger involved in each fight since you can just hover around the red or yellow now. I feel like that's something that will actually take away from battles, because the danger was a part of the excitement to me. I learned how FFXI's emnity system worked by getting my face eaten off a few times, but once I learned it I never forgot it.

I just think this change will cause the battles to be less exciting and isn't really necessary.
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#11 Jul 06 2011 at 6:34 AM Rating: Default
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@Hugus: I think it's enemy's total enmity spread out not every person on his own, if i understand this correctly. so only tank should have Blinking red, the rest in the 3 color spectrum.

@Reptiletim: This changes nothing in the ways of excitement, as is a tank "spams" a rotation of skills that works best for hate generation, and melee do same for higher DPS. This will be a indicator how proficient you are. If a tank cant tank, or DPS put out good numbers it will not aid them.



Edited, Jul 6th 2011 8:35am by TwiddleDee
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#12 Jul 06 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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If they make it so you can turn it off.....what's the problem?
As a BLM in XI, I loved trying to gauge how close I was to pulling hate.....then nuking the mob to finish it off.
This will make it easier......and if I find it annoying, and I can't turn it off, I'll just ignore the symbol. It'll just be a small icon and there's plenty of stuff onscreen to focus on instead.
Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean other people shouldn't have it.
It's not going to ruin your experience in the slightest.
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#13 Jul 06 2011 at 7:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Likibiki wrote:
To FilthMcnasty, the coloured icon is probably because they wanted to make it more of a guideline than an actual percentage... i.e. "Hey Mr DD Job, your enmity is orange, be careful ok?"

This (a) discourages number crunching and (b) still means there's an element of skill involved to hate management.


Number crunching will be around as long as there are players who wish to maximize their performance. In my opinion, a skillful player is someone who understands what their abilities do in relation to their group, the mob or their environment. This player has a solid understanding of what ability to use, what time to use it and where.

Beyond a simple tooltip, it would be nice to have at least an idea that is measurable in better terms than "That light shot took me from green to red". I can see people just assigning values on a scale of 0-3 for how much enmity an ability generates and using that instead of a more realistic value.

Hugus wrote:
From what I read here this system will actually not help the tank at all...

Sure it will. It basically works as a 'Use [insert high enmity ability here] now' sign on the mob's health bar. If the light stops flashing red, you provoke the mob to attack you. Let go of my hand SE. Let me tank the mob on my own...








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#14 Jul 06 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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This icon will appear to the left of the enemy’s HP gauge, and through a color scheme will inform players of their foe’s enmity level and behavior.


So you'll have to be targeting the enemy if you want to see your enmity. It would be nice if you could see your enmity on all foes at once since most battles include more than 1 adversary.
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#15 Jul 06 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Twiddledee wrote:
@Hugus: I think it's enemy's total enmity spread out not every person on his own, if i understand this correctly. so only tank should have Blinking red, the rest in the 3 color spectrum.


What I was trying to get across is that from their explanation I got the idea that each theyer will only be able to check their own threat icon, the tank will indeed (or should) have the blinking red icon but no idea about how close the other party members are in relation to himself, as such the only notice he will get is when his icon stops blinking but at that time the mob will be hitting someone else so it might as well not be there (for the tank).


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
From what I read here this system will actually not help the tank at all...

Sure it will. It basically works as a 'Use [insert high enmity ability here] now' sign on the mob's health bar. If the light stops flashing red, you provoke the mob to attack you. Let go of my hand SE. Let me tank the mob on my own...


I understand that but I dont see any difference between an icon stopping flasshing and a mob starting to hit another party member, this is why I said that fr the tank it wont be that helpful. This will only be good for other party members who no longer have the excuse that they didn't know how much threat they were getting...
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#16 Jul 06 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Sure it will. It basically works as a 'Use [insert high enmity ability here] now' sign on the mob's health bar. If the light stops flashing red, you provoke the mob to attack you. Let go of my hand SE. Let me tank the mob on my own...


I don't see this as being hand holding. You'll still need to be mindful of skills, with this or without. As of yet there's NO single skill to 'Use [insert high enmity ability here] now', you still need to compile attack and defensive skills. To anyone that has has tanked on PLD in xi, this is hand holding. To anyone that has done NIN tanking this would of been good to have. (I have tanked on both)
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#17 Jul 06 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Hugus wrote:
I understand that but I dont see any difference between an icon stopping flasshing and a mob starting to hit another party member, this is why I said that fr the tank it wont be that helpful.


I just think it is pretty pointless overall I guess. I agree that it is slightly more useful for DD, but only because it makes it so easy for tanks. The only times I ever see something like this being useful is for dual-tanked encounters. It might be useful for mobs with hate reset, but in a very limited sense.

I have two major issues with this system. The first is that it tries to quantify enmity on a 4 level scale. That doesn't make sense unless enmity increases or decays along this scale. Should we assume that there are only 4 levels of enmity and that the values are consistent for everyone? Maybe it's modified by how many actions the player took against the mob(if both orange the mob attacks the person with the most actions against it)? It sounds way to simple and I'm sure it isn't so why make it visible this way?

I also don't like that it is mob-based. It doesn't make sense to me to have an indicator of how much enmity the mob has toward me. It would be much more useful to show how much enmity I have in comparison to whoever is at the top of the list. There is a big difference and this information would be much more useful.





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#18 Jul 06 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
I understand that but I dont see any difference between an icon stopping flasshing and a mob starting to hit another party member, this is why I said that fr the tank it wont be that helpful.


I just think it is pretty pointless overall I guess. I agree that it is slightly more useful for DD, but only because it makes it so easy for tanks. The only times I ever see something like this being useful is for dual-tanked encounters. It might be useful for mobs with hate reset, but in a very limited sense.

I have two major issues with this system. The first is that it tries to quantify enmity on a 4 level scale. That doesn't make sense unless enmity increases or decays along this scale. Should we assume that there are only 4 levels of enmity and that the values are consistent for everyone? Maybe it's modified by how many actions the player took against the mob(if both orange the mob attacks the person with the most actions against it)? It sounds way to simple and I'm sure it isn't so why make it visible this way?

I also don't like that it is mob-based. It doesn't make sense to me to have an indicator of how much enmity the mob has toward me. It would be much more useful to show how much enmity I have in comparison to whoever is at the top of the list. There is a big difference and this information would be much more useful.


You don't want easy button, but you want information to say who's at the top of the list? How about not giving a dam who's at the top of the list, and if you want to be there yourself, use your "SKILL" as a player and make your icon blink red??? Quite simple. I think this is the best solution to any problem, you only see your hate level, and it's up to you as a "skilled" player to work with it.

I'm going to love this on my Conjurer and Archer.
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#19 Jul 06 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would just love to know why this enmity issue became one of the priorities of re-working the adjustments to the battle system. They should have just copy and pasted that from FFXI.

I question the time spent on this and whether this time could have been better allocated to fixing things such as battle animation, magic casting graphics and game content.
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#20 Jul 06 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Likibiki wrote:
To FilthMcnasty, the coloured icon is probably because they wanted to make it more of a guideline than an actual percentage... i.e. "Hey Mr DD Job, your enmity is orange, be careful ok?"

This... means there's an element of skill involved to hate management.

It's a good idea.


As much skill as looking at a traffic light, yeah.
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#21 Jul 06 2011 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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As much skill as looking at a traffic light, yeah.

Which is too complicated for some people XD..
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#22 Jul 06 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Is this all that's in today's patch?

Wow.
#23 Jul 06 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Likibiki wrote:
To FilthMcnasty, the coloured icon is probably because they wanted to make it more of a guideline than an actual percentage... i.e. "Hey Mr DD Job, your enmity is orange, be careful ok?"

This (a) discourages number crunching and (b) still means there's an element of skill involved to hate management.


1. Number crunching will be around as long as there are players who wish to maximize their performance. In my opinion, a skillful player is someone who understands what their abilities do in relation to their group, the mob or their environment. This player has a solid understanding of what ability to use, what time to use it and where.

2. Beyond a simple tooltip, it would be nice to have at least an idea that is measurable in better terms than "That light shot took me from green to red". I can see people just assigning values on a scale of 0-3 for how much enmity an ability generates and using that instead of a more realistic value.


I agree in part with your statements. There are always going to be players with a desire to excel and "maximize" their performance. I also agree with the statement that, great players understand their abilities and the relationship they play within a party. However, I seriously doubt that knowing that your Jarring Strike created 65.4321% emnity as opposed to 54.3210% emnity it gains on average will damage your efforts to gain "elite" status.

It is a question of scale resolution. In the end the relaxed resolution is a blessing. I would modify your 0-3 scale slightly to demonstrate the ranges. This provides 0-1(Green), 1-2(Yellow), 2-3(Red), 3-4(Blinking) four ranges for emnity calculation and is enough information to help the tank hold aggro and keep the damage dealers in the yellow to red range.

As for the piece about the gauge only showing your status, I just don't think it is a good idea to show everyone's status. I know more than a few players in other MMOs would argue this point because they can't, for instance, survive without their DPS calculation. They need the instant feedback to validate their ability. Not to mention they use the information as a discriminatory tool. "You're DPS isn't 3,000,000/sec OMG YOU SUCK!" I just don't think an emnity scale needs to be that detailed.

The goal is to beat the enemy not one another. Slow down, speed up, stop and go (or keep at it) is really all you need.
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#24 Jul 06 2011 at 1:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:

@Reptiletim: This changes nothing in the ways of excitement, as is a tank "spams" a rotation of skills that works best for hate generation, and melee do same for higher DPS. This will be a indicator how proficient you are. If a tank cant tank, or DPS put out good numbers it will not aid them.


I guess not knowing the amount of hate I had and finding out which abilities/spells caused spikes in emnity made the battles in FFXI more fun for me, and added an element of unpredictability, but I can see how people wouldn't find it fun. It makes sense in an MMO where to progress you must repeatedly perform the same actions to progress, performing the same optimal routine of abilities each battle makes sense. Personally though I just prefer an element of unpredictability to battles, it makes them more memorable (not saying there aren't other elements, just talking in the context of emnity).
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#25 Jul 06 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I think everyone missed the point entirely that the icon wasn't the only thing that was being added. They're changing the way aggro works and is accumulated, and from what I understand, is a big deal. I'd focus more on that being the real discussion here, considering that almost every MMO out there now has an in-game aggro meter or indicator of some sort.
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#26 Jul 06 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Default
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Urste wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
I know a lot of people dont like this but I am ok with it.



I'm guessing the part people have problems with isn't changing how enmity works (I like the new way as it's described), but rather the fact that some people need a visual indicator to tell them that they're doing something stupid.


Actually, it does nothing to stop you from doing something stupid. It gives you a 2 second warning that you're about to die from your stupid action.

In any case, I think this will lead to much cleaner fights. Tanks will know they have the right amount of hate, and ranged attackers and healers will know when to cool it down so the mob won't be chasing them all over the map (hate it when that happens).
#27 Jul 06 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Elionara wrote:
You don't want easy button, but you want information to say who's at the top of the list? How about not giving a dam who's at the top of the list, and if you want to be there yourself, use your "SKILL" as a player and make your icon blink red???


No. Did you bother to read anything I wrote before you spewed this out? I honestly could care less if the implement this or not. The point is that it doesn't make sense to just show mob enmity toward a player on a 4 level scale. If they are trying to provide players with visual information about enmity, and this is their objective and not mine; it would be more useful to display the difference between the players.
kainsilv wrote:
As for the piece about the gauge only showing your status, I just don't think it is a good idea to show everyone's status. I know more than a few players in other MMOs would argue this point because they can't, for instance, survive without their DPS calculation. They need the instant feedback to validate their ability.


I'm not suggesting it show everyone's threat levels. It would be useful information, but the main idea is to understand your threat in relation to who is at the top of the list. DPS meters are a different story. I'll agree that people like to impress other people with big numbers, but that isn't really a problem with the program it is player based.

When I used programs like FFXI parser or recount for WoW I used them as feedback on my performance. It is a tool that can show you what you did and what was successful in terms of dealing damage, healing or conserving mp/mana. Regardless of people using them for e-peen status updates, it is a valid tool for understanding how to use your abilities more effectively. The goal or in some cases, the only way to win(assuming XIV adds battles with mechanics that are challenging) is to be as effective as possible.

Don't fault the tool, fault the player. I believe in this case though that the tool they are adding to XIV is ineffective at best.
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#28 Jul 06 2011 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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No, there's no patch today, and this is a weekly piece of info on patch 1.18, not the only one in that patch (which is, soon?).
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#29 Jul 07 2011 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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TurboTom wrote:
I think everyone missed the point entirely that the icon wasn't the only thing that was being added. They're changing the way aggro works and is accumulated, and from what I understand, is a big deal. I'd focus more on that being the real discussion here, considering that almost every MMO out there now has an in-game aggro meter or indicator of some sort.


I'm not really sure you'll notice a big difference in playstyle because of the emnity changes. The emnity calculation system might be being simplied, but that's something on their end, not ours. We still should have the same type of emnity laws.
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#30 Jul 07 2011 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I'm not suggesting it show everyone's threat levels. It would be useful information, but the main idea is to understand your threat in relation to who is at the top of the list. DPS meters are a different story. I'll agree that people like to impress other people with big numbers, but that isn't really a problem with the program it is player based.

When I used programs like FFXI parser or recount for WoW I used them as feedback on my performance. It is a tool that can show you what you did and what was successful in terms of dealing damage, healing or conserving mp/mana. Regardless of people using them for e-peen status updates, it is a valid tool for understanding how to use your abilities more effectively. The goal or in some cases, the only way to win(assuming XIV adds battles with mechanics that are challenging) is to be as effective as possible.

Don't fault the tool, fault the player. I believe in this case though that the tool they are adding to XIV is ineffective at best.


I thought I'd go back and reread the Battle Reform Blueprint - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/10879. If I read that right looks like they are considering what you want in future updates. Although, it may remain red, yellow, green, blinking.

Akihiko_Matsui wrote:
•Enmity (Hate) Control
Following review, we have deemed the current algorithm unnecessarily complicated, and as such have decided to simplify the system as follows:
•Damage will convert to enmity at a one-to-one ratio (in most cases)
•Players will have the means to examine their own current hate value.
A hate conversion formula will be applied to actions that target friendlies or do not inflict damage.

Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked. A feature whereby players may examine hate values for all party members is also under consideration for a future update.
•Crowd Control (CC)
As crowd control tactics are expected to gain in prominence with the introduction of dungeons, a host of adjustments is being planned centered around the following:
•The reforming of crowd control methods
•Tweaks to crowd control actions and their distribution among classes.



Edited, Jul 7th 2011 6:53am by kainsilv
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#31 Jul 07 2011 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
Akihiko_Matsui wrote:
•Enmity (Hate) Control...
Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked.

A feature whereby players may examine hate values for all party members is also under consideration for a future update.


The first part is exactly what this tool should be. Measuring your own personal enmity against that of the mob's main focus is a much better indicator and makes way more sense to add to the game.

The second part only seems like it would be useful for those odd situations I mentioned above; dual tanking and/or against mobs with enmity decay/reset abilities.

Again, I'm not on a crusade for this gauge to be added, but if they do add it then it should be of some use to players even if it is only situational. If they implemented abilities that players could use to reduce or reset enmity, it would be nice to know who the best candidate in your group is to receive it.


Edited, Jul 7th 2011 8:16am by FilthMcNasty
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#32 Jul 07 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Again, I'm not on a crusade for this gauge to be added, but if they do add it then it should be of some use to players even if it is only situational. If they implemented abilities that players could use to reduce or reset enmity, it would be nice to know who the best candidate in your group is to receive it.


Edited, Jul 7th 2011 8:16am by FilthMcNasty


Agree in part- this hate meter would really be nicely suited for an advanced job... Meaning you didnt know your own hate unless you were that job. You'd have some buff-debuff abilities and some hate management skills. Or maybe tanks only should have this hate gauge skill.. Since they have the ability to cover it would be nice to know who to get ready to cover. My idea of a tank would be someone totally aware of how hate is spread... Ever vigilant to protecting the weak and performing their job.

Not a big fan of the easy button for everyone to use. But I guess that's because battles are so easy to begin with. Guess we will have to see what the battle reform ends up looking like.
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