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YAYAYAY!!! Repair system simplified!Follow

#52 Jul 15 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe in the begining you "needed" to get classes to be able to repair ur own stuff but since they updated the speed at which gear detiorates i dont think this is no longer the case.

If people are still finding it hard to get stuff repaired then in my opinion this is because one of two things, they havent learned to use the Menders ward overnight when their gear is in need instead of waitting for the last posisble moment or just because they're not offering enough Gil.

As you can see from my sig I have a lot of craft classes and i used to spend a couple mins in the wards checking what ppl needed to get repaired untill i got the conclusion that the time i spent there just wasn't worth it in comparison to the Gil I was making. In no way do I consider myself Rich (only got 10M), I dont activelly try to make Gil at all but going to the trouble of having mats on me for the posisbility of getting 2K for a repair to me is just not worth it.

In my opinion the system was great, by simplefying the mats, making them all available on NPC and decreasing the cost of repair NPC this will only make crafts less relevant in a game which they were supposed to be a full class on their own.
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#53 Jul 15 2011 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
this will only make crafts less relevant in a game which they were supposed to be a full class on their own.


Good. I don't care what Tanaka said eight months before release, Crafters are not, and have never been, treated like actual classes. It's time to drop that vain hope and move on to making a balanced game, one where missions don't have to have to be soloed by an NPC so that a bread-maker can progress without ever fighting a monster.
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#54 Jul 15 2011 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
this will only make crafts less relevant in a game which they were supposed to be a full class on their own.


Good. I don't care what Tanaka said eight months before release, Crafters are not, and have never been, treated like actual classes. It's time to drop that vain hope and move on to making a balanced game, one where missions don't have to have to be soloed by an NPC so that a bread-maker can progress without ever fighting a monster.


I still say they could've made that work a whole lot better than they did. Slightly varied main-story missions depending on your class at certain trigger points. An easier road for the crafters/gatherers with parley & such and a more epic fighting road. Everyone's happy and one doesn't ruin the other.
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#56 Jul 16 2011 at 2:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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If the interface and inventory were smooth and well-designed, or the game had a better way to accommodate repairing, I would rather have what we have now.. But since that's a pipe dream and not reality, bring on the easy repairs.

Also, the thread title keeps making me think of this.

Edited, Jul 16th 2011 10:57am by Coyohma
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#57 Jul 16 2011 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
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And here we go again... Just because you've had ten months to get used to a sh*tty system, doesn't make the system less sh*tty.[/quote]

I never said, the game is superb. I said you need time to find out how some things work, and everyone can find out how to press a "Seek repair" button.
But if you need ten month to get used to how crafting, fighting and repairing works...
Well, Forrest....

#58 Jul 16 2011 at 5:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Hugus wrote:
this will only make crafts less relevant in a game which they were supposed to be a full class on their own.


Good. I don't care what Tanaka said eight months before release, Crafters are not, and have never been, treated like actual classes. It's time to drop that vain hope and move on to making a balanced game, one where missions don't have to have to be soloed by an NPC so that a bread-maker can progress without ever fighting a monster.


Just because you (and maybe a lot other players) hate the idea that crafters can be considered as a proper class it doesn't mean that it could or should be done that way. People with your point of view have been putting the lack of chalenge in main storyline quests at crafters feet for too long with no reason to do so, just blind stubourness.

If crafters were to be blamed by the lacklustre of the main quests then the DoW/M specific quests would be completelly engaging, interesting and chalenging and this is NOT te case so stop blaming DoH/Ls for something they have no blame. It wouldnt be that hard to make two main story questlines, one for fightewrs and one for the rest (it would even make more sense) but even if this was not to be the xase then the possibility between fighting your way through or doing parley (I would prefer the card game from FFXIII) should give people the choice between a chalenging fight or another "engagement".
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#59 Jul 16 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Forget Deaspect crystals with Darkmatter/Ducktape looks like DoH will get items to blow up Eorzea or hold it together.This thread was funny for awhile.
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#61 Jul 16 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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This a good thing. Making inconveniences less inconvenient is always good.
#62 Jul 16 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Slightly varied main-story missions depending on your class at certain trigger points. An easier road for the crafters/gatherers with parley & such and a more epic fighting road.


Making the game "easier" for certain classes is a really strange idea. You're saying that people should be able to choose certain classes in order to breeze through missions? Also, it's really difficult (and awkward) to try and fit a Weaver into the same epic story as, say, a Marauder:

"The dragon looms just ahead, steady your battleaxe crochet pattern and aim for its fiery head match up this series of shapes!"
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#63 Jul 16 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Slightly varied main-story missions depending on your class at certain trigger points. An easier road for the crafters/gatherers with parley & such and a more epic fighting road.


Making the game "easier" for certain classes is a really strange idea. You're saying that people should be able to choose certain classes in order to breeze through missions? Also, it's really difficult (and awkward) to try and fit a Weaver into the same epic story as, say, a Marauder:

"The dragon looms just ahead, steady your battleaxe crochet pattern and aim for its fiery head match up this series of shapes!"


When there aren't significant rewards for accomplishing the missions I don't see a huge deal there. Basically the reward is some gil, learning more about what's going on in the world, and some cutscenes. Everyone should be welcome to that. They can have that basic storyline that everyone can participate in and then the real action can come from the Grand Companies and whatever else they add and branch out into later on. That content can be the actual "proving grounds" where you gain ranks and sweet rewards for the time & effort put in.
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#64 Jul 16 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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i dont understand why simplifying repairs is such a big deal to people. crafters still get to craft with as much complexity as the gear requires!
i personally never once used a crafter to repair my gear. shouting,waiting, and then locating takes longer than just going to the repair NPC.
actually, im pretty sure the average non-crafter (once the game takes off and populations expand) would rather use the repair NPC over shouting, waiting, and then locating so they can get back to story lines and killing things.

i love the gear crafters can make, but they can sure slow things down if your that dependent on them. (i mean making them just as important to be in battles as well as obtaining/repairing gear, something alot of crafters ive seen want)
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#65 Jul 16 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Check out the official forum!
That's GREAT news!

...and it also means that whoever is sitting on several stacks of electrum nuggets
will bite into his/her own ***. Oh well. That's the "game-changing" changes we all
agreed on, I guess @^.^@/

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 5:28am by Rinsui



Lets hope they give us new recipies for some of the mats that were traditionally repair mats.
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#66 Jul 16 2011 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
tpgsoldier wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Check out the official forum!
That's GREAT news!

...and it also means that whoever is sitting on several stacks of electrum nuggets
will bite into his/her own ***. Oh well. That's the "game-changing" changes we all
agreed on, I guess @^.^@/

Edited, Jul 15th 2011 5:28am by Rinsui



Lets hope they give us new recipies for some of the mats that were traditionally repair mats.
I hope we get to do something with them.
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#67 Jul 16 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
When there aren't significant rewards for accomplishing the missions--

Freeze.

Plot and world are significant. Achievement and camaraderie are significant, or at least they should be. I may be a stickler for loot and bling in standard MMO content, but there is no substitution for an old school RPG plot point boss. Granted, FFXIV does none of it particularly well so far. Doesn't mean they shouldn't improve.

You don't know triumph until you've beaten the pre-nerf Mammultimega airship battle. When the time comes, why should a crafter be able to chat their way out of something like that? I would say a disservice is done to them. They are robbed of the experience for picking a non-combat class.

The cloying stench of casual lingers still.
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#68 Jul 16 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Cool! Now instead of using items I already have en masse from crafting, I'll get to go grind Dark Matter!
#69 Jul 16 2011 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
When there aren't significant rewards for accomplishing the missions--

Freeze.

Plot and world are significant. Achievement and camaraderie are significant, or at least they should be. I may be a stickler for loot and bling in standard MMO content, but there is no substitution for an old school RPG plot point boss. Granted, FFXIV does none of it particularly well so far. Doesn't mean they shouldn't improve.

You don't know triumph until you've beaten the pre-nerf Mammultimega airship battle. When the time comes, why should a crafter be able to chat their way out of something like that? I would say a disservice is done to them. They are robbed of the experience for picking a non-combat class.

The cloying stench of casual lingers still.

hahaha, you konw... i pretty much have to agree with this. i still feel that mega awesome rare loot should be still be rewarded for battles like the pre-nerf Mammultimega airship battle and that crafters should not be involved in battles.
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#70 Jul 16 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Slightly varied main-story missions depending on your class at certain trigger points. An easier road for the crafters/gatherers with parley & such and a more epic fighting road.


Making the game "easier" for certain classes is a really strange idea. You're saying that people should be able to choose certain classes in order to breeze through missions? Also, it's really difficult (and awkward) to try and fit a Weaver into the same epic story as, say, a Marauder:

"The dragon looms just ahead, steady your battleaxe crochet pattern and aim for its fiery head match up this series of shapes!"


When there aren't significant rewards for accomplishing the missions I don't see a huge deal there. Basically the reward is some gil, learning more about what's going on in the world, and some cutscenes. Everyone should be welcome to that. They can have that basic storyline that everyone can participate in and then the real action can come from the Grand Companies and whatever else they add and branch out into later on. That content can be the actual "proving grounds" where you gain ranks and sweet rewards for the time & effort put in.


You argue that Crafters should be "real" classes, able to participate just like classes who can damage/heal/buff, but you also want "the real action" and the "sweet rewards" to be available to only battle classes. Either way, we're saying similar things: that standing in one place spamming "standard" doesn't count as a "real" class, and that the game's content cannot be balanced to adequately satisfy both groups.

Incidentally, is there anyone here whose never played a War/Magic user? Also, is there anyone here who would even want to advance only through crafting - not "ideal" crafting, but crafting as it is in FFXIV?
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

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#71 Jul 16 2011 at 9:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually had a nice post with quotes and links but ZAM just messed it all out, got no patience to do it all over again.

Edited, Jul 17th 2011 3:18am by Hugus
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#72 Jul 16 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
You argue that Crafters should be "real" classes, able to participate just like classes who can damage/heal/buff, but you also want "the real action" and the "sweet rewards" to be available to only battle classes. Either way, we're saying similar things: that standing in one place spamming "standard" doesn't count as a "real" class, and that the game's content cannot be balanced to adequately satisfy both groups.

Incidentally, is there anyone here whose never played a War/Magic user? Also, is there anyone here who would even want to advance only through crafting - not "ideal" crafting, but crafting as it is in FFXIV?


Not so much arguing "for" them to be full classes, but seeing how it could work since they're there. You have one general storyline like they do that can be taken on & finished by anyone on any class. Setting the stage. Then you have content & storylines building off or branching out from that general one. Fighting content earning sweet fighting rewards, crafting content earning sweet crafting rewards, etc.

And, like most things involving this game, I can see where that kinda thing could've worked out better if the game wasn't rushed & made on the extremely casual easy-mode side. But it was rushed and not done all that well. So basically a pointless "would've, could've, should've" argument/speculation. Something the internet's very good for.
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#73 Jul 16 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
You argue that Crafters should be "real" classes, able to participate just like classes who can damage/heal/buff, but you also want "the real action" and the "sweet rewards" to be available to only battle classes. Either way, we're saying similar things: that standing in one place spamming "standard" doesn't count as a "real" class, and that the game's content cannot be balanced to adequately satisfy both groups.

Incidentally, is there anyone here whose never played a War/Magic user? Also, is there anyone here who would even want to advance only through crafting - not "ideal" crafting, but crafting as it is in FFXIV?


Not so much arguing "for" them to be full classes, but seeing how it could work since they're there. You have one general storyline like they do that can be taken on & finished by anyone on any class. Setting the stage. Then you have content & storylines building off or branching out from that general one. Fighting content earning sweet fighting rewards, crafting content earning sweet crafting rewards, etc.

And, like most things involving this game, I can see where that kinda thing could've worked out better if the game wasn't rushed & made on the extremely casual easy-mode side. But it was rushed and not done all that well. So basically a pointless "would've, could've, should've" argument/speculation. Something the internet's very good for.


Yeah, it would have been nice if SE delivered even half of what they had promised at release... now, coming up on a year later, we're left hoping they can manage to pull together basic combat. T_T
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#74 Jul 16 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to be saving tons of space from losing all those repair mats, and even then I still think this is a weird change -- I don't think the repair mat itself is the problem, as much as the convenience of repairing.

1) Icon appears in the status bar because some of my gear is below 50%!
2) Investigate which item through the Equip screen
3) ah AH! It's my gloves!
4) Check the job that repairs those gloves (if not known by heart)
5) It's leatherworking!
6) Remove gloves!
7) Equip Leatherworking tool
8) Go to Inventory page
9) Find the gloves in the list
10) Click Repair
11) Wait until character kneels
12) Click Main Hand (..?)
13) Watch Animation
14) Pray it doesn't... CRAP..
15) It failed.
16) Click Repair again
17) Oh, I clicked too fast, no response.
18) Click Repair again
19) Out of mats >_<;;;
20) Run to retainer bell
21) Try to remember which retainer has buffalo spetches
22) They're both out!
23) Make new spetches
24) ****, I'm out of buffalo leather...
25) Got plenty of skins, but I need to run to the repair NPC for support
26) And now to the leather stand for chips
27) Oh right, in Gridania, those chips are sold at the carpenter's...
28) Make leather
29) Make spetches
30) Gloves repaired!
31) **** my magnifiers just fell below 50% >_<;;;
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#75 Jul 17 2011 at 2:46 AM Rating: Good
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Docent,
this post just made my day. That's exactly what happened to me countless times already. Maybe I could be more organized. And maybe I should have remenbered which of my retainers has what stuff on him. And maybe I shouldn't have used different gear for my various jobs in the first place. But ****, I don't feel I should have to spend half of my time trying to remember, organize, allocate, distrubute and search in a f*cking game!
#76 Jul 17 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Slightly varied main-story missions depending on your class at certain trigger points. An easier road for the crafters/gatherers with parley & such and a more epic fighting road.


Making the game "easier" for certain classes is a really strange idea. You're saying that people should be able to choose certain classes in order to breeze through missions? Also, it's really difficult (and awkward) to try and fit a Weaver into the same epic story as, say, a Marauder:

"The dragon looms just ahead, steady your battleaxe crochet pattern and aim for its fiery head match up this series of shapes!"


Why not? I bulls**t my way 4 play-throughs in FO:NV (with the only 5th is the all-brawn-no-brain approach), and it felt more epic than DA:O where you get to slay dragon. Granted, SE isn't the best developers for this type of approach, but doesn't mean this is a wrong approach.

Bulls**ting Legate Lanius to run away then tell Yes-Man to push General Oliver down the Dam is the most epic ending, ever.
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#77 Jul 18 2011 at 1:07 AM Rating: Good
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The logic in this exists because players want a sense of wear and tare in a gaming world. Even though it's not real, it's a form of alternate reality (escape) in which people care about.

Except no one want's it to be 100% realistic. Just enough to have to go through a somewhat equivalent form of it.

I also remember a mention by the development team that crafting jobs would serve as a beneficial role in party play by fixing armor and such in the midst of extended battles. How on earth would you be able to acquire these materials if none existed in the area? Would you have to prepare for an outing in such a complex way that you check every party members gear to know what mats to bring in order to be able to repair them on location?

This new repair system is only a practical solution to a system that brings more involvement to the upkeep of strategic game play.
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#78 Jul 18 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
I would say anything that can bring back players is a welcome change.

Does simplifying repairs fit that goal? Yes, I think so.
#79 Jul 18 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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This is great for the game...original repair system was way too complicated and time consuming. I tried to level up a number of crafts SOLELY because I wanted to be able to repair my own gear. A few hundred hours of gameplay later, I can inconsistently ***** you RNG) repair most of my stuff. Of course that is until the NM gears came out which are all r50 gear...

It was a bad idea from the jump, and SE was too stubborn to fix it (or scrap it) in a timely manner. Glad to see it's being phased out to oblivion. It should have landed on the cutting room floor a long long time ago.
#80 Jul 18 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
Why not? I bulls**t my way 4 play-throughs in FO:NV

Drastically different systems are at work in Fallout. You can't play a bullsh*tter/sweet talker/smart ***/pacifist/Dr. Who character without funneling skill points into Speech, Science and Medicine--not to mention having high CHR and INT scores. Not every idiot can tell the Master he's a big doo-doo head and expect him to self-destruct afterward; that is a privilege reserved only for the most persuasive orators.

FFXIV doesn't distinguish combatant from non-combatant with its Parley system. Anyone can do it as well as anyone else. The hardest thing to do in a Fallout game that you are playing for the first time (and no FAQing around) is playing a pacifist. Parley has no comparable challenge to its combat content. It is made solely to circumvent combat content, doesn't add anything new to the world (an intelligent, persuasive or tech apt character can learn a lot of extra information in Fallout) and is really, really easy.

It feels rewarding to use a successful non-combat character because you engineered it for that purpose, in the same way a combat character would feel rewarding when it crits so hard all the target's limbs fly off. Parley is a get-out-of-challenge-free card.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 7:23pm by Almalexia
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#81 Jul 19 2011 at 1:31 AM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Why not? I bulls**t my way 4 play-throughs in FO:NV

Drastically different systems are at work in Fallout. You can't play a bullsh*tter/sweet talker/smart ***/pacifist/Dr. Who character without funneling skill points into Speech, Science and Medicine--not to mention having high CHR and INT scores. Not every idiot can tell the Master he's a big doo-doo head and expect him to self-destruct afterward; that is a privilege reserved only for the most persuasive orators.

FFXIV doesn't distinguish combatant from non-combatant with its Parley system. Anyone can do it as well as anyone else. The hardest thing to do in a Fallout game that you are playing for the first time (and no FAQing around) is playing a pacifist. Parley has no comparable challenge to its combat content. It is made solely to circumvent combat content, doesn't add anything new to the world (an intelligent, persuasive or tech apt character can learn a lot of extra information in Fallout) and is really, really easy.

It feels rewarding to use a successful non-combat character because you engineered it for that purpose, in the same way a combat character would feel rewarding when it crits so hard all the target's limbs fly off. Parley is a get-out-of-challenge-free card.

Edited, Jul 18th 2011 7:23pm by Almalexia


And what are you saying? They can make amendments, can they not? In the very same way the other side is asking for new quests to be made very hard combat-wise, they can also offer alternatives that is very hard for non-crafters/non-gatherers to complete. Say, in order to parley this boss, you need to gather this material from that grade 6/7 source, then craft it on your own (Like the crafter guild quests) and use it to open XYZ portal, venture there to solve a puzzle (mini-game) and take an Artifact and use it to Parley with the boss/Seal it instead of fighting it. In the very same way that we have DoW/DoM guild quests, and we have DoL/DoH guild quests.
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#82 Jul 19 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
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And they totally miss out on the boss fight that FFXIV's battle and effects teams spent god-knows-how-many weeks creating, animating and balancing for this exciting showdown.

There are many ways to "challenge" crafters and gatherers, sure, but it is a tedium on the same level as all the other crafting and gathering they do. For a combat class, boss fights are different from the usual fare. In that regard, a minigame puzzle doesn't compare; you can find a puzzle solution online, but a boss' details don't guarantee you victory. The only kind of dynamic event I can think of would be a PUZZLE DUNGEON! where the player has to proceed through an instance--filled with roaming monsters, switches, and temporary items--on an Indiana Jones quest for the plot coupon. I think FFXI already did this.

Still, bargaining with every boss is only slightly preferable to talking them down. What happens when **** gets real? How ridiculous would it be if there was a Sigil of Promathian Banishment in FFXI, or a Clockwork Whatchamacallit of Alexander-Go-Home? What becomes of a world where the mightiest (plot) enemies can be soloed by a crafter?
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#83 Jul 19 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
What happens when sh*t gets real? How ridiculous would it be if there was a Sigil of Promathian Banishment in FFXI, or a Clockwork Whatchamacallit of Alexander-Go-Home? What becomes of a world where the mightiest (plot) enemies can be soloed by a crafter?


Casual happens.

...and then micro-transactions.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#84 Jul 19 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Really tired of the crafter bashing. If you don't want to do missions as a crafter - then don't. Having crafters being real classes doesn't hurt people who don't want to play crafters. Just like I don't want SE to take MNK out of XI cause I don't like to play it.

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#85 Jul 19 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Still, bargaining with every boss is only slightly preferable to talking them down. What happens when sh*t gets real? How ridiculous would it be if there was a Sigil of Promathian Banishment in FFXI, or a Clockwork Whatchamacallit of Alexander-Go-Home? What becomes of a world where the mightiest (plot) enemies can be soloed by a crafter?


It is when sh*t get real. Most of the historic famous conquerors can fight, but they don't fight personally, they command the fight. There are distinctions between a fight, a battle and a war. Only in fantasy that people get the idea of an one-man army can save the whole world. It isn't any less ridiculous when you consider that this is an MMORPG, no matter what you see it as, having whatever boss defeated times and again so that each player can advance his/her plot and save the world countless times with mere seconds in between is utterly silly. You don't force people to "enjoy" that boss fight battle and effect. You don't want to live the life of a crafter, then don't, just go the other way. It is there for you to walk, no reason for you to force other unwilling people to walk it with you.

KaneKitty wrote:
Casual happens.

...and then micro-transactions.


How is Casual a bad thing? A good game need to be able to cater to both sides, because they are usually not mutually exclusive. And I doubt most people who refuse to play as crafter are qualified as "not-casual", pfft.

And micro-transactions, as much as people whine and whine, they still shut up and pay in the end. Look at EVE and its drama, within a week it's back to normal, and people secretly buying tophat and monocle.

Edited, Jul 19th 2011 8:43pm by Khornette

Edited, Jul 19th 2011 8:45pm by Khornette
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#86 Jul 19 2011 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
How is Casual a bad thing? A good game need to be able to cater to both sides, because they are usually not mutually exclusive. And I doubt most people who refuse to play as crafter are qualified as "not-casual", pfft.


Casual is a fine thing as long as hardcore still exists. Unfortunately, casual seems to eventually eclipse hardcore. Take WoW, for example: hardcore involves gathering ~25 people together and confronting a boss with increased difficulty. While the option still exists to do that, Blizzard deemed it unfair to give hardcore players any tangible reward for undertaking a path of much greater effort and requiring greater skill. Now, instead of +1 gear, hardcore earns an "achievement" or a "title," which is tantamount to a digital pat on the back. :\

So, I do agree that casual is not a bad thing in itself, so long as there remains a reason, as long as there remains some content, that encourages one to try a little harder.

Khornette wrote:
And micro-transactions, as much as people whine and whine, they still shut up and pay in the end. Look at EVE and its drama, within a week it's back to normal, and people secretly buying tophat and monocle.


Micro transactions aren't bad because of whining, they're bad because they take something that could have been content and they change it into a simple online purchase. In EVE, for example, I could have saved up for a monocle by workign in-game, I could have ascended the rungs of a mercantile society - instead I just buy it online. In WoW, I could have farmed a boss for a flying pony or a panda pet, I could have done a quest chain that culminated in a unique reward, but instead I just buy it online.

Micro transactions take the value out of the game world and place them within the player's wallet: that's why they're bad.
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#87 Jul 19 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Micro transactions aren't bad because of whining, they're bad because they take something that could have been content and they change it into a simple online purchase. In EVE, for example, I could have saved up for a monocle by workign in-game, I could have ascended the rungs of a mercantile society - instead I just buy it online. In WoW, I could have farmed a boss for a flying pony or a panda pet, I could have done a quest chain that culminated in a unique reward, but instead I just buy it online.

Micro transactions take the value out of the game world and place them within the player's wallet: that's why they're bad.


And people still pay for it, make the publishers/developers' wallets fatter. Unfortunately, more and more will follow, because people who whine the most about it, end up secretly doing it the most.
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#88 Jul 19 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I didn't even read this thread, you crafter bashers!

Neat.

Khornette wrote:
It is when sh*t get real. Most of the historic famous conquerors can fight, but they don't fight personally, they command the fight. There are distinctions between a fight, a battle and a war. Only in fantasy that people get the idea of an one-man army can save the whole world. It isn't any less ridiculous when you consider that this is an MMORPG, no matter what you see it as, having whatever boss defeated times and again so that each player can advance his/her plot and save the world countless times with mere seconds in between is utterly silly. You don't force people to "enjoy" that boss fight battle and effect. You don't want to live the life of a crafter, then don't, just go the other way. It is there for you to walk, no reason for you to force other unwilling people to walk it with you.

I'm not calling for realism, though. Every JRPG and MMORPG you have ever played has conflicts or adventures that culminate in a boss fight, whether you are playing solo or in a party. You have been "forced" to enjoy bosses for years; I don't understand how calling it out now strengthens your argument.

These games are combat oriented. More resources are dedicated to combat content than anything else. This means boss fights will be interesting, and Parley will be dull--a simple mechanism to get around the problem of non-combat classes. We can only hope that they sack the whole thing: the only practical use for having crafters as a full-fledged class is for unlocking missions. Yet, if all the big plot battles are skippable, then it is super-easy mode. What's the point?

I feel like people were duped into thinking
Quote:
Tanaka: Crafters get their very own classes!

meant something substantial. It just gets you past a rank check, which leads to combat content. That you can skip.
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#89 Jul 19 2011 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
I'm not calling for realism, though. Every JRPG and MMORPG you have ever played has conflicts or adventures that culminate in a boss fight, whether you are playing solo or in a party. You have been "forced" to enjoy bosses for years; I don't understand how calling it out now strengthens your argument.

These games are combat oriented. More resources are dedicated to combat content than anything else. This means boss fights will be interesting, and Parley will be dull--a simple mechanism to get around the problem of non-combat classes. We can only hope that they sack the whole thing: the only practical use for having crafters as a full-fledged class is for unlocking missions. Yet, if all the big plot battles are skippable, then it is super-easy mode. What's the point?

I feel like people were duped into thinking
Quote:
Tanaka: Crafters get their very own classes!

meant something substantial. It just gets you past a rank check, which leads to combat content. That you can skip.


No, dungeon/raid bosses are not equal to story/plot bosses. What you tried to argue is that plot is about immersion, and immersion can only be gained by having the player fight said boss. It isn't. Sandbox MMO usually have much less plot, and of course fewer plot bosses. To be honest, I've been playing MMO for a long time and I usually care less about the scripted plot. It is silly to have a save-the-world plot in an MMORPG, where you save the world ten times an hour, 24/7. I've been enjoying more on sandbox-ish MMO with player-made politics and plots. Regarding JRPG, on one side people are complaining it is stagnant, and when they try to change, people dictate they must not change because they have to be made that way. Utter crap.

About Tanaka, his vision was that of a sandbox-ish game. Maybe the idea of crafters being a real class offend you, or class in MMORPG can only mean killing stuff to you.

And obviously you haven't been playing Puzzle Quest series. Killing stuff using puzzle is fun. And it's an RPG too.

Edited, Jul 20th 2011 12:34am by Khornette
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#90 Jul 20 2011 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalexia wrote:
These games are combat oriented. More resources are dedicated to combat content than anything else. This means boss fights will be interesting, and Parley will be dull--a simple mechanism to get around the problem of non-combat classes. We can only hope that they sack the whole thing: the only practical use for having crafters as a full-fledged class is for unlocking missions. Yet, if all the big plot battles are skippable, then it is super-easy mode. What's the point?


I can agree that the parley system is not the best implemented system in the game (although I still find it interesting) but it could also be much more involved/challenging. People don't have to be bashing bosses to get a sense of achievement and this can transfered to MMOs with "card games" like triple triad and such.

For years now Magic the Gathering has been going on with edition after edition and expansion after espansion and noone can honestly say it's a dull game. Something like this could be implemented into FFXIV (once again adding content) allowing DoH/L to move on storyline plots instead of having to fight and giving the option for DoW/M whether to take the fight in their own hands or not.

Also, a mechanic like this doesn't necessarilly mean it will make the encounter or obtaining rewards any easier, they could even implement different rewards like fighting gear at the end of the mission (which the boss was fought) or crafting gear when the event is decided through a card game!
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#91 Jul 20 2011 at 2:25 AM Rating: Default
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Killing stuff with Puzzle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuP2sBJJZpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqCdVFPrUk&NR=1

No less epic. So, shut up about dull puzzle part please.

Edited, Jul 20th 2011 4:28am by Khornette
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#92 Jul 20 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
Killing stuff with Puzzle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuP2sBJJZpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqCdVFPrUk&NR=1

No less epic. So, shut up about dull puzzle part please.


Of course, the puzzling in question here is spent to cast combat spells and use melee abilities, not knit scarfs. XD
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#93 Jul 20 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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Hacking, lockpicking, researching, crafting and mining in PQ, Galactrix, PK, PQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JUXPPl2m20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmCQd4sKPYk&feature=related



Edited, Jul 20th 2011 8:09pm by Khornette
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#94 Jul 20 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
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That's Puzzle Quest, a game with puzzles at the heart of it. FFXIV is not Puzzle Quest. Parley is not Puzzle Quest. Parley is dull as ****. Dull dull dull.

I don't know how you expect me to change my mind by showing me a completely different, very dynamic, very fun game. Unless you are trying to prove just how poor of a minigame Parley is--which I already pointed out. What are you trying to do?
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#95 Jul 20 2011 at 7:57 PM Rating: Default
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So, Parley is dull, they must ditch it. Combat currently IS DULL, they must ditch it as well. They are revamping combat, that means they can revamp Parley. What are you trying to do?

I think you're offended with the mere idea that they can revamp Parley into something fun.

Edited, Jul 20th 2011 9:58pm by Khornette
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#96 Jul 20 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Be rational, dude.

You can remove Parley without harming the game. You can't remove combat from an MMORPG, let alone a Final Fantasy game, without robbing it of what most people want out of these RPGs: a combat system, preferably a good one.

It is extremely unrealistic to assume Parley will be changed in a way to match the likes of Puzzle Quest just so crafters/gatherers can pass through a plot boss. It's a tiny part of what crafters and gatherers do regularly. Combat classes are fighting, boss or no. But Parley? You can't expect the devs to add an entirely separate game for so limited a purpose.

It is far more likely that combat will become more interesting and bosses more varied and challenging due to the preeminence of combat in FF and MMORPGs.

I would be delighted if Parley becomes some cool, Puzzle Quest-y challenge, but that is far beyond the realm of possibility now and highly unlikely still years down the road.

If you look back, my original complaint was that crafters are getting the shaft in terms of plot content, since the bosses are and will be virtually skippable. Most people here, I assume, have played RPGs besides FFXIV whose content is (frequently but not always) combat oriented. In that regard, it seems reasonable that people would rather face a challenging boss than a dinky puzzle.

I think Parley is dull. I think it's foolish to expect Parley to change for the better. I think it's unfortunate that crafters/gatherers are stuck doing Parley when Tanaka's promise of "classhood" could have meant something bigger. That is where I stand on this.

Also, **** you, I like Puzzle Quest.
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#97 Jul 20 2011 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
About Tanaka, his vision was that of a sandbox-ish game.


Methinks Tanaka's vision never surpassed his talking points.

He may have given one of the eleven total crafters/gatherers some kind of ability that did something beyond rudimentary item synthesis/node access if it did. I remember reading about changing classes at a whim, which the armoury system limited thanks to stat allocation; I remember reading about "weavers of cloth rivalling weavers of spells," but all crafters are too barren to be even considered classes. Heck, I even remember reading about the "true next-generation MMO," whatever that meant.

On the most essential level, I agree with you. It would have been great if SE actually made crafters substantial enough to contribute something (aside from crafting) in their own right - a botanist or miner being able to swing their massive, bladed weapons instead of flicking a 1-damage pebble would have been a start - but, as the situation stands now, SE made a game that treats everything related to gathering and production the same as WoW and any WoW-clone out there: as a single skill secondary and separate from the majority of the current and future content of the game, relegated to a secondary place in character development.

I think the problem, at this point, is less about discussing ideas for implementation and more about knowing when to give up and move on. FFXIV acted like it was going to do lots of things from the beginning. It failed to do just about any of them. I don't know what happened, I have no idea what they were doing for years of production, but it seems that nobody even checked to see what was going on until a couple weeks before release (when the astoundingly short alpha/beta started).

It certainly would have been nice, I do agree with you on that, but FFXIV is not the game Tanaka described. In fact, it never was. And it never will be.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#98 Jul 22 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Default
I know as a strictly solo player (level 40) I'm a major minority here (oxymoron intended) but please bear with me. I don't like this new system, AT ALL. What's really STUPID is that prior to the "new improved repair system" I could keep my gear for a rank 31 conjurer (using level 35-37 or so weapon/etc.) very easily repaired with my MIN, BOT, and other skills in the low 20's. I was 100% self sufficient and have to be for reasons beyond my control that I won't get into here. Now I'm going to have to level EVERY effing craft (except cooking and fishing) up to the same level as my MAIN JOB to be able to harvest and repair stuff??? That's NUTS! I have put MONTHS into endless grinding...not to mention the mats I had created from scratch and was actually kind of proud to be using...dorky as that may sound. MONTHS of grinding for nothing. I am so beyond disgusted right now I'm actually considering WoW, and I'm a DIE HARD FF fan of many years. And yeah, I am aware of the normal human response to change, ie: resistance. That's not what's going on here. I'm just royally ticked at another poorly thought out decision by SE. This game IS gonna be as dumbed down as WoW pretty soon. We already have the doofy exclamation marks. Trying to figure out the real rationale here. It has to all boil down to trying to keep server load as low as possible. Simpler repair system, less mats stocked up, fewer "mules"...lower server demand. Glad they put the player experience first. This is SOOOOoooo SE. Sorry for the venting...but the developers and SE in general just drive me nuts sometimes.
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#99 Jul 22 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
What's actually kind of funny about all self aggrandizing WARRIOR (otherwise known as the COMPENSATION) classes is that a lot of them are just stat heavy neanderthals buffed to the gills, swinging a GAXE around and thinking that makes them godly. (Note: I do NOT include magic users in this group as they are the true unsung heroes of the game.) Where is the real skill in wearing insanely protective gear, monopolizing mage time, and hit hit hitting that makes WAR classes any better than anyone else who works to perfect what they do in the game? Yep... massive damage, but for what they cost in ASSISTANCE, gear, and weaponry, they'd BETTER do some damage...and they don't last real long without the buffs and cures, etc. etc. etc. On the other hand, soloing goes quite well for magic users in this game, which is ONE major improvement I can point to in this incarnation of FF. All that said I need to remind myself and everyone else who takes this crafter vs "THE GREAT AND MEAT-HEADED...I mean MIGHTY WEAPON SWINGERS" thing that....it's a GAME...for fun...remember? You people who take it so seriously and think you're oh so effing superior because you can swing something big and bring the big D...remember there ARE other ways to enjoy games that don't involve grunting.
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#100 Jul 22 2011 at 5:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'm hoping people get a clue in regards to the new repair system and dark matter. I'm still seeing ppl putting up stuff requiring grade 4/5 dark matter for repair and only offering like 1k ...
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#101 Jul 22 2011 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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ChelleFemreal wrote:
they'd BETTER do some damage...and they don't last real long without the buffs and cures, etc. etc. etc.

Melee and mage working together. Goodness gracious me. Truly a fate worse than death.
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