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#102 Jul 22 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
No, actually YOU think that people expected it. What I'm telling you is that MOST people know better, at least most people on the forums. Sure there are fanboys who still expect that everything SE does is gold, but the vast majority of players have become far more critical of SE and wary of their "updates". That isn't some speculation, it's written all over the forums here if you actually took the time to look.


I don't understand where you're coming up with this grand idea that I'm including everyone in my posts. Being critical is fine. Constructive criticism is fine. Whining about incomplete changes and saying you're going to quit the game is in NO way constructive, whatsoever. If the person truly wanted their voice heard, in a constructive, responsible manner, they should go to the official forums and post, with a dev tag, and highlight issues they see with the current system. Not whine, whine, whine, whine, /quit. That serves NO purpose into making this game better, all it does is clog up a -usually- good forum for information, with boring drivel.

BartelX wrote:
I'm not playing, as I've made abundantly clear in posts all over this board. I won't play until i'm satisfied with the changes. Where you got the idea that I AM playing currently, I'm not sure. Oh, and fyi... people are complaining at a product that SHOULD have been complete 10+ months ago. I agree there have been some serious overreactions by people, but I certainly can't blame them. There were a lot of nerfs worked into this patch, and a lot of stuff that just looks like a virtual copy/paste from FFXI, and I think people have a right to complain if they don't like it. That's part of what forums are for.


Then how do you know it's frustrating if you're not playing? I can blame them. During Alpha everyone knew the game was being rushed and was going to crash... why didn't all these forum users that have such high understanding that you speak of? Again, complaining and constructive criticism are different. Constructive criticism can help better the situation, whereas complaining just makes you look feeble.

BartelX wrote:
I didn't say you can't voice your opinion, I said I think your opinion about everyone thinking this was a miracle patch was ridiculous, which I still do. When you start labeling people and saying how they're wrong for making a complaint, expect some backlash. Part of being in an argument is being able to defend your viewpoint. Labeling whole groups of people isn't a great defense imo, and I just called you on it.

edit: and just so you know DK, I am not the one rating you down.


I never said "everyone" thought this was a miracle patch. The reaction of the OP alludes to them thinking this patch was gonna be all roses, that their class would be left alone, and it should be known by now, that's not what is happening with these patches. Again, raging and claiming you're going to quit because of ridiculous reasons (especially considering some of the things stated in the OP are misinformed, like nothing being mentioned about DoL/DoH improvements). Again, the OP has made accusations as to the state of an incomplete system. That's ridiculous, period. Doesn't help, doesn't make the game better, doesn't provide SE with any kind of feedback. You're claiming I'm making these labels for people when I'm not. You say that I'm telling someone they're wrong for complaining, and I didn't say that either. If you look at my initial response you'll see that I clearly state I'm all for providing feedback, and not liking certain things, and that I too do this. But I also make posts in constructive ways, by including dev tags on the official forums, outlining the problems, and pitching my ideas for possible solutions. THAT is how you complain. THAT is how you get the game fixed. Not diluded, assuming forum posts.

And just so you know, this is an online forum. I sincerely do not care if I get "rated down." It means nothing. My life is still awesome with a poor forum rating.

And as far as it goes, we're both intelligent individuals with clearly strong opinions but there's also de-railing of communication between us, because it's obvious we both have some assumptions that we're not filtering from this little debate. I'm not saying people shouldn't be upset at things in the game. They very well SHOULD be... But these kind of threads don't fix anything, they don't help the game, they don't change the mage situation.
#103 Jul 22 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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Tried posting in the official forum the thread about mages being nerfed was nuked with no explanation, and when I tried to express any concerns whatsoever I just got personal insults.

I highly doubt the mods have missed the outcry from a significant number of mages about the changes. Yet they clearly don't seem interested in addressing those concerns or even acknowledging the concerns exist.

The XI official forum is great, people there act like humans. The XIV forum really sucks. I'm sorry but if people can't handle anyone criticizing their game even a little bit, then the game must be in terrible shape. (Which it is)

Edited, Jul 22nd 2011 2:57pm by Olorinus
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#104 Jul 22 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Tried posting in the official forum the thread about mages being nerfed was nuked with no explanation, and when I tried to express any concerns whatsoever I just got personal insults.

I highly doubt the mods have missed the outcry from a significant number of mages about the changes. Yet they clearly don't seem interested in addressing those concerns or even acknowledging the concerns exist.

The XI official forum is great, people there act like humans. The XIV forum really sucks. I'm sorry but if people can't handle anyone criticizing their game even a little bit, then the game must be in terrible shape. (Which it is)


Have you played it yet or are you still basing your speculation off the patch notes and what others have said? Because a few magey types have begun experimenting and are netting some success, NONE that I have read have used food nor pots yet to suppliment MP regeneration.
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#105 Jul 22 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Tried posting in the official forum the thread about mages being nerfed was nuked with no explanation, and when I tried to express any concerns whatsoever I just got personal insults.

I highly doubt the mods have missed the outcry from a significant number of mages about the changes. Yet they clearly don't seem interested in addressing those concerns or even acknowledging the concerns exist.

The XI official forum is great, people there act like humans. The XIV forum really sucks. I'm sorry but if people can't handle anyone criticizing their game even a little bit, then the game must be in terrible shape. (Which it is)

Edited, Jul 22nd 2011 2:57pm by Olorinus


Firstly yes, I did notice that happen but that was likely due to the personal reflections of the posts, a dev tag post in your class forum should be fine. I know the official forums are full of sh*theads too, you have to expect that, but don't let it deter, ignore the comments and just make a strong, valid post and it'll get seen.

The mods aren't really addressing much at this point, and I can understand why, because the patch hasn't even been out 24 hours yet, and it launched on a Thursday, I wouldn't expect any real dev activity until Monday.

And I agree with you. The kind of people the 14 forums have drawn out is unfortunate, but if you weed through all the sh*t, you can actually find some really good topics and some good debate from some people. Unfortunately you're right though, the forum sucks and there are a lot of ***** on it.

And like Perrin said, I've also heard about some mages doing some testing and there's still a lot of speculation and testing to see what exactly all our classes can do. I'm willing to bet they're not gonna be as gimpy as people suspect once the kinks are hammered out.

Edited, Jul 22nd 2011 7:13pm by DeadKings
#106 Jul 22 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:

NONE that I have read have used food nor pots yet to suppliment MP regeneration.


Unless something has changed there is no food to supplement MP generation.

And ethers give 50 mp back - along with a medicated effect so you can't use more than 1 every once in awhile. The HQ ones give more but since they are not "finished products" they are extremely difficult to HQ... and even then a +1 only gives back 75 mp.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#107 Jul 22 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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So I tried the patch out. I gave it a fair and honest chance, I even threw myself into some raid parties and I have to say...I'm really worried.

I've noticed I've slowed down way too much. TP is hard to come by for me. I'm not casting a single nuke out of fear that I won't have enough MP to save someone in a critical moment. I've lost competent party members because I used Curaga to at one point to prevent a wipe, or because I had to pick and choose which one I was going to let die.

I'm sitting back and throwing out cures and noticing my MP bar is empty, and this is with the members mitigating damage, using second wind, making good use of Blood bath.

I've cured once and taken hate on tiny scorpion babies that kept on coming and no one was able to pull them off me fast enough. Keeping myself alive through the onslaught was made impossible by also keeping alive whoever was tanking the main boss. I die, or the tank dies.

I officially take back everything I said. At the end of the day...I hate my class. I loved being able to duo with my boyfriend, keep us alive while contributing to some damage, or just stepping back and healing while spirit darting. Now? Now it's all I do. And I'm lucky to emerge out of the fight with everyone alive.

I'm worried it will always be this way, but I have hope that future refinements will make it better. For now...I feel useless.
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#108 Jul 22 2011 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:

NONE that I have read have used food nor pots yet to suppliment MP regeneration.


Unless something has changed there is no food to supplement MP generation.

And ethers give 50 mp back - along with a medicated effect so you can't use more than 1 every once in awhile. The HQ ones give more but since they are not "finished products" they are extremely difficult to HQ... and even then a +1 only gives back 75 mp.

There are tons of foods that supplement MP. Eggs, fruits, sweets, vegetables, and several kinds of soups (just off the top of my head).

They may not supplement MP generation, but they do supplement MP pool. Which is what you want anyway, if you don't want to go into passive mode.
#109 Jul 22 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
Have you played it yet or are you still basing your speculation off the patch notes and what others have said? Because a few magey types have begun experimenting and are netting some success, NONE that I have read have used food nor pots yet to suppliment MP regeneration.


But I want to spam cures without foresight or any kind of support! D:
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#110 Jul 23 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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i remember on launch the ****** SP mages got because nukes didn't proc skill ups that often maybe once every 4~5 nukes would net you 35 sp, it was the same day i said ***** this and started playing lancer.

Mages are not the class to play lightly especially when those classes are a melting pot of opposites Conjurer being a mix of WHM/BLM and Thaumaturge being a mix of Time-Mage/Green-Mage. they where never going to stay the same you had to have known this?

if micro manging skills is your issue than you might as well quite XIV entirely i play Lancer and Gladiator when i play and you'll find that your going to have to micro manage a skill template Mage or no there is no way around it. Micro managing is easy it takes 5 minutes to set it up and one micro button to change an entire skill set..or just one skill in slot 3 or whatever. setting it up will save you a **** of alot of time.

if thats not the true issue and you just wanted to Easy mode your way throughout the entire game, then forget about it its not going to happen.

i like a challenge and now that mages aren't just easy mode and get decent sp, i think I'll play one.



#111 Jul 23 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Unless SE reverses the total and utter nerf of mages in this game (especially since they have failed to say they were improving DoL and DoH) I don't see myself ever coming back.

After Abyssea I am not, repeat NOT, going to suffer through MP micro-management fantasy ever again. It just isn't fun, and I don't buy that it is the only way to create challenging encounters.

If SE thinks micro-managing MP = strategy they should make DoW classes suffer the same way by making all cures self target only so that DDs have to learn to manage their HP. Cause, that would be fun, right?

Anyway, I am severely disssapointed, especially with the THM nerf and I am not even sure I will download the patch. It is too bad, things seemed to be looking up, but SE clearly missed the boat again.

/cheers folks. Hope you have fun.


You're overreacting and that's clouding your sense.

First of all, it's been noted again and again that this patch would be an awkward transition period, OBVIOUSLY mages are not going to stay in this state forever.

Second of all, what you suggest basically amounts to you not wanting MP in the game at all. Micro-managing MP IS strategy and DOES show skill. How is spamming the same awesome spells over and over with no cost any example of strategy or skill?

You seem to want some sort of personal tailored game rather than a game that is trying to become well designed.

I'm sorry, I just don't think you really thought your argument through very much before posting out of being angry :/
#112 Jul 23 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Well I was on your side a lot early days I too defended the game but I cant agree with the OP at all. I wouldn't pass judgement without even downloading the patch...

I stand by my early comments about this game, it was different had huge potential and all that. now. 1.18. Its like SE came along with a big fat syringe full of pure unadulterated Final Fantasy and injected it right into the game. The MP isnt too much of a problem at all. Just went through an instance run and still didn't even get close to low mp. It looks bad from the patch notes but PLAY it and see for yourself.

My biggest concern before the patch. Instances. Its like a dirty word to me. I need a bit more time with it. Something about it still seems strange to me. I cant put my finger on what I dont like about them exactly but I will either get used to it or nail down exactly why I dont like the way theyre done. Either way. Its not a game breaker by a long way.

There is a lot to like here. Get in there and enjoy it.
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#113 Jul 23 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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It makes no sense to really compare Xi abyssea to XIV. Abyssea is an event in one area and while sure it's the main event it doesn't mean that mages always have MP. I don't really understand how MP management can't be considered a strategy in battle since conserving MP should be part of the strategy. Now it may be true that MP cost is to high and made need tweaks but overall I believe that MP management is a vital strat in a fight.

I guess honestly speaking you have to consider would you rather have higher mp cost or higher recast times? It's obvious auto-battle concept is going to need tweaks I think people neglect that this change was a big one. They have to change every class ability in one way or another adding mp, changing recast and such, they had to change the hate formula, they had to change the way mobs work and prolly still need to work on that but overall auto-battle changing is a very big piece of the pie that will take user input and a few tweaks to get it just right.

I wouldn't be surprised if they already have an update planned to add more abilities to THM perhaps turning them into a refresher of sorts and allowing for more battle potential. But right now I think it's to quick to judge and "give up" because of auto-battle changes.

Giving up on the game cause of the first patch that introduces auto-battle is like giving up on making your own computer cause you put it together and got an error upon starting it up. What happen when you make a computer and get an error? You look into it and begin to tweak it til you get everything working and that's exactly what auto-battle is.

Just give them time and I'm sure they'll balance things out better to work better with autobattle but I believe it's safe to agree that THM was pretty overpowered if they could handle a wide variety of mobs that were meant for party play.
#114 Jul 23 2011 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I would rather have higher recast timers, because at least then it would be an encouragement to do more than play cure "whack a mole"

I also would not have minded them increasing costs for cures - but they went way overboard.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2011 4:46pm by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#115 Jul 23 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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In Order To Light Up The Mood Of This Thread Ill Post Something Some Of You Might Find Funny That Relates To This.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLppb80xYc&feature=related]

LMFAO on the yellow bird comment in video.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2011 9:43pm by KingAlkaiser
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#116 Jul 23 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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This is why they should have just pulled the game and released it when it was ready. By keeping it up, they're just going to lose players with every patch, serving as a constant reminder to those still playing just how hard and slow progress is going to be.

But honestly, anyone who was playing this game with the hopes that it would eventually be good has nothing to complain about.
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#117 Jul 23 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I would rather have higher recast timers, because at least then it would be an encouragement to do more than play cure "whack a mole"

I also would not have minded them increasing costs for cures - but they went way overboard.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2011 4:46pm by Olorinus


When are you going to start replying to people that have all of these awesome points? Almost seems like you're dodging people now and even worse, you're just down to making snide nonconstructive remarks like "play cure whack a mole". If you don't want to discuss this topic and hear opposing opinions then it baffles me as to why you'd create this thread in the first place.

Edited, Jul 24th 2011 12:05am by runtheplacered
#118 Jul 24 2011 at 4:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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First of all, it's been noted again and again that this patch would be an awkward transition period, OBVIOUSLY mages are not going to stay in this state forever.


Not saying I disagree, but why is that so? Shouldn't there have been more testing done is mage jobs are unplayable (or at least exceptionally hard to play)? Couldn't the MP nerf wait until they had adjusted whatever they need to to even out the nerf?

This just strikes me as a terrible thing to do -- even if it is temporary. Now, maybe we're all overreacting a bit and it isn't as bad as it appears to be. Perhaps if we adjust some, the "nerf" won't be as bad. I'm hoping that's the case. Because if not, it just shows SE's continued lack of understanding of what players want.

Hopefully this all gets sorted out one way or another. I'd hate to have to have players wait till 1.19 to be able to play a class they like to play.
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#119 Jul 24 2011 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
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The stupidity of people who proclaim to hate FFXIV yet still persit with playing it and flaming it at every opportunity never ceases to amaze me.

People that have this attitude that a game has somehow mortally offended them and they will "never play it again!" are just not worth the time, in game, in a forum, or irl.

Part of what makes MMO's fun is figuring out how to adapt to change, if some people can't accept that this will happen throughout an MMO's life then perhaps they should stay away from that genre all together?




#120 Jul 24 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
People that have this attitude that a game has somehow mortally offended them and they will "never play it again!" are just not worth the time, in game, in a forum, or irl.


Man, I would love to have you as a customer. I could sell you the most awful things, and not only would you still keep buying from me, you'd defend me from those pointing out I was selling awful things! I'd put you in a cloning vat if I could!
#121 Jul 24 2011 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Caia wrote:
Not saying I disagree, but why is that so? Shouldn't there have been more testing done is mage jobs are unplayable (or at least exceptionally hard to play)? Couldn't the MP nerf wait until they had adjusted whatever they need to to even out the nerf?

This just strikes me as a terrible thing to do -- even if it is temporary. Now, maybe we're all overreacting a bit and it isn't as bad as it appears to be. Perhaps if we adjust some, the "nerf" won't be as bad. I'm hoping that's the case. Because if not, it just shows SE's continued lack of understanding of what players want.

Hopefully this all gets sorted out one way or another. I'd hate to have to have players wait till 1.19 to be able to play a class they like to play.

The point is that it's definitely NOT unplayable. People read the patch notes and freaked out without even trying the new system.

It is more difficult. And not everyone's going to love playing a more challenging game. But, to be honest, I haven't even found it to be THAT much more difficult. I've got to pay more attention to my MP, and I've got to make sure that the tanks have locked in some hate before casting a big cure. But, in my opinion, all this gnashing of teeth and rending of garments over nerfs is entirely overblown.

The forums were flooded with people saying they wanted the game to be more challenging. And as soon as SE gives us slightly more challenge, the forums are flooded with people saying they're quitting -- without even playing -- because the game is too hard. It's kind of bizarre.

Try it. Give it a shot before saying that it's "terrible" or that people can't play certain classes. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised.

Edited, Jul 24th 2011 9:58am by VydarrTyr
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