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Separation Anxiety: XIV and the eventual alienationFollow

#1 Jul 25 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
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If Patch 1.18 made clear anything, it's this: Final Fantasy XIV is taking shape.

Nearly a year ago, the decision was made by Square Enix to rush an unfinished product out the door. Despite that, players amassed and latched on. Ten months later, we're still churning along and waiting for the day the game has definition.

Since the release, many promises have been made. A year ago, it was promised that the game would be the casual-friendly MMO. In the same breath, players were told XIV was intended to be the first true "next-gen" MMO experience.

As the months past the leadership changed and so too did the promises. XIV would be a casual-friendly MMO, but also would cater to the hard core endgame crowd. These promises pulled in a wildly varied playerbase. And now, following 1.18, it seems one side may have to give.

Patch 1.18 was was the first of what was to be an ambitious many released throughout the summer that would finally take the game in the direction envisioned by director/producer "Yoshi-P" and his development team. The reaction is as mixed as the game's playerbase. Some cheer the implementation of challenge, while others cry foul that their favored class has been rendered a lame duck. Some revel in the chance to return to a non-stop grind while others are scratching their heads wondering what happened to solo play.

Ultimately, it all begs the question, is it possible to cater to both sides? Can casuals and hardcore really exist in the same game world? Is it time for SE to drop the axe on one side of the table, or can they triumph in their mission to blend the play styles?


With the one-year anniversary rapidly approaching, is it time for SE to cut ties with a specific crowd?
Yes, they should ditch hardcore. :19 (10.1%)
Yes, they should ditch casual. :44 (23.3%)
No, they still have time to satisfy both crowds. :78 (41.3%)
The game is hopeless, even a summer of patches won't help. :48 (25.4%)
Total:189


#2 Jul 25 2011 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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They added a dungeon that without the luxury of a test server or any previous knowlegde of the dungeons conent was cleared by multiple groups of people in under 72 hours. So are you saying they are catering to hardcore or casual, because this dungeon seems anything but hardcore.

I'm gonna say WoW is a shining example of a big company like SE catering to hardcore and casual players very successfully. It can be done and should be done.
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#3 Jul 25 2011 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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tpgsoldier wrote:
I'm gonna say WoW is a shining example of a big company like SE catering to hardcore and casual players very successfully. It can be done and should be done.


WoW is an example of a company managing to trick people into believing that "hardcore" is nothing more than achievement-hunting, vanity pets, and gear for your lower-level characters.

Blizzard does everything they can to make sure that no amount of large-scale teamwork and skill can ever be too far ahead of a casual player who occasionally lets the computer make a group for him and teleport him inside of an instance.
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#4 Jul 25 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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They added a dungeon that without the luxury of a test server or any previous knowlegde of the dungeons conent was cleared by multiple groups of people in under 72 hours. So are you saying they are catering to hardcore or casual, because this dungeon seems anything but hardcore.


It's tough to devaluate the content because an LS or two of super-leveled hard cores breezed through it. Even XI had those shells that would complete content within hours of it's release.

Fact is, the majority of players still struggle with the Ogre in the Deepcroft. It wasn't until those hardcore groups released their strategies that folks started shouting for gladiators, Conjurers and archers only.

I'm sure the game will eventually get it's own Absolute Virtue. But what I'm asking is, will the hardcores stick around long enough if they're not receiving new challenges on a regular basis, and conversely how patient will casuals be while SE tries to give the hardcore something to chew on for a while?

Can SE really focus on two opposite playstyles in the same content?
#5 Jul 25 2011 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
tpgsoldier wrote:
I'm gonna say WoW is a shining example of a big company like SE catering to hardcore and casual players very successfully. It can be done and should be done.


WoW is an example of a company managing to trick people into believing that "hardcore" is nothing more than achievement-hunting, vanity pets, and gear for your lower-level characters.

Blizzard does everything they can to make sure that no amount of large-scale teamwork and skill can ever be too far ahead of a casual player who occasionally lets the computer make a group for him and teleport him inside of an instance.


What items that dropped from our new dungeon are so much better than items that can already be purchased in the wards for or around 1 million gil? It seems that so far no matter how hardcore you are in FFXIV you can never actually create much distance between how leet you are and how leet the guy who logs on 3 hours every 36 hours just to do leves is. I dont see a lot of difference.

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 1:51am by tpgsoldier
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#6 Jul 25 2011 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
They added a dungeon that without the luxury of a test server or any previous knowlegde of the dungeons conent was cleared by multiple groups of people in under 72 hours. So are you saying they are catering to hardcore or casual, because this dungeon seems anything but hardcore.


It's tough to devaluate the content because an LS or two of super-leveled hard cores breezed through it. Even XI had those shells that would complete content within hours of it's release.

Fact is, the majority of players still struggle with the Ogre in the Deepcroft. It wasn't until those hardcore groups released their strategies that folks started shouting for gladiators, Conjurers and archers only.

I'm sure the game will eventually get it's own Absolute Virtue. But what I'm asking is, will the hardcores stick around long enough if they're not receiving new challenges on a regular basis, and conversely how patient will casuals be while SE tries to give the hardcore something to chew on for a while?

Can SE really focus on two opposite playstyles in the same content?


My 18 man LS took a group into the dungeon today for the second time and beat the Ogre and made good progress on the last boss. This is after SE basicly thrashed the mage classes and took everything the average mage knew and threw it out the window. If such progress can be made on the second day of trying by average gamers after 1/4th of the people who were brought had their classes turned upside down the content cant be that hard.


One of the main reasons why the content is tough is because of the huge changes made to the battle system / mage classes.

Think of it like this we were mountain biking on the kiddie trails. We told SE were were ready for some challenge instead of taking us off the kiddie trails they took a sledge hammer and destroyed our bike and told us enjoy the new challenge.
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#7 Jul 26 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know what they need to do to pull this off. They basically have to rebuild the game into something completely new that would have been a hit off release, and they need to do it while the wheels are in motion. I don't think the answer is in 'should we favor casual or hardcore'. But I agree that they have a problem with these concepts.

Their casual content isn't especially casual, despite them claiming so often than it is. I can get more done in 30 minutes of rift than I can in 30 minutes of FFXIV. they keep mentioning their "play the way you like" mentality but never explain how FFXIV allows for it in a way that competitors don't.

The hardcore content (what little their seems to be), doesn't seem all that hardcore. frankly combat still feels too boring to really allow for something all that challenging. Abilities and classes are dull and uninspired, gear is just larger sets of numbers without any interesting proc's or modifiers I've seen. from what I've seen so far its all minimal strategy and a numbers check.
(its possible the dungeons actually invalidate all this, but I haven't heard anything out of them so far that makes me feel any of this is wrong)

I don't know who SE intended to target (looking at what they said, they seemed to believe they would get lots of interest, but maybe they had a more realistic assessment in house), or who they want to capture now, but based on a few forums, I have a good idea of who they got. Some FF fanboys who will play anything with the title, and MMO dinosaurs who liked things the way they were before halo kids started pumping billions of dollars into WoW. I don't think they can keep things going with just them.
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#8 Jul 26 2011 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm probably going to catch a lot of heat for this but I honestly believe they should've made it more like XI. I mean, why not go with something that you know works and build on it instead of completely ignoring what worked and trying to build from the ground up. It's over complicating sh*t.

The only reason I'm still around is because I believe that the game is slowing moving towards what XI did (auto attack for instance) and I'm hoping that once it gets there they build on it even more to make a great game.

Edit: Towards the end, where I stopped playing XI, they did cater to both hardcore and casual players.

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 2:20am by CupDeNoodles
#9 Jul 26 2011 at 12:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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WoW is an example of a company managing to trick people into believing that "hardcore" is nothing more than achievement-hunting, vanity pets, and gear for your lower-level characters.


I've never played WoW, but this sounds a lot like a WoW player who I work with. When I tell him about how FFXI used to be (which is what I consider to be hardcore), his eyes glaze over and he asks why players would subject themselves to such torture.

Anyway, back to the interesting subject at hand...

I think FFXIV could and should cater to both sides. Final Fantasy XI has catered to casual and hardcore gamers excellently for the past year. I'd say SE hit the nail on the head with FFXI when they introduced Fields of Valor and Level Synch. These features didn't necessarily make it so you could speed-solo your way to max level, but they made it much easier for duos, trios and parties to form up at low levels and get decent exp/hour.

Part of the reason SE took this approach with FFXI was because they playerbase was starting to decline, and finding parties was becoming much more difficult. Well, until something causes FFXIV's population to skyrocket, I think SE needs to proceed on the assumption that many people who play this game will have a hard time finding lots of people to adventure with. Keeping the game friendly for casual (solo and small group) players will help ensure that new players to the game aren't alienated by the low server populations.

The other reason I think SE should cater to both is that the leve system is already in place, and it provides the perfect infrastructure for providing casual progression. Unlike the first several years of FFXI, no additional additions are needed to FFXIV to give soloers/casuals a great way to level. In fact, that's been the one thing that's been in the game since launch day.
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#10 Jul 26 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion we need to realise that the current Dungeons are not supposed to be end game content, they are supposed to be a place where you can reank/level up, that's what they were put there for.

Yoshi has already mentioned that end game content would be large scale raids which would be put in at a later stage.

And if you think that just because something can be done by restricting the classes of people taking part in the event makes it easy then our points of view are reallt different. The place is suposed to be run by a group of 8 people over rank 45, just because it can be done but a group of 8 50s from 3 classes only doesn't make it easy, it simply means that once more MMO players will take the road of less resistance.
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#11 Jul 26 2011 at 1:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Couldn't agree more, Hugus.

One of the things SE did wrong with FFXI was not implementing activities such as Moblin Maze Mongers and assault until way too late in the game's life. These dungeons are not meant to be endgame... they're meant to be stepping stones on the way to whatever will eventually be endgame.
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#12 Jul 26 2011 at 3:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
In my opinion we need to realise that the current Dungeons are not supposed to be end game content, they are supposed to be a place where you can reank/level up, that's what they were put there for.

Yoshi has already mentioned that end game content would be large scale raids which would be put in at a later stage.

And if you think that just because something can be done by restricting the classes of people taking part in the event makes it easy then our points of view are reallt different. The place is suposed to be run by a group of 8 people over rank 45, just because it can be done but a group of 8 50s from 3 classes only doesn't make it easy, it simply means that once more MMO players will take the road of less resistance.


I really appreciated your post.

I think that as long as SE continues to expand horizontally they can make room for varied styles of play. I'm guessing the trick though comes from balancing the incentives over the actual content itself. I think the classes and jobs provide an interesting opportunity to balance both sides, and they already announced that jobs will get more exclusive gear giving more party oriented players a different set of incentives and rewards.

I got my money on the job system being for 8 man dungon exp parties, the monsters in the field being for 4 man class exp chain parties, and the leve's being for soloers. Its already common to see pick up groups killing mobs, soloers doing leve's, and the more experience LS's going through dungeons, I'd be surprised if the 1.19 and 1.20 changes don't further exemplify this.
#13 Jul 26 2011 at 3:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's an interesting situation. Something we often talked about last year around release was how it looked like they went after a much bigger piece of the pie and wanted to accommodate/bring in all kinds of different players. And in the process, turned off most people. Almost like building a character/stat build in certain games. If you spread it out trying to be all things, you're average or sub-par in all of them rather than really good at the most important things.

I still wonder about the problems the game's had. How much of the blame goes to it being rushed & how much goes to them spreading out too far to please everyone. It's hard to tell sometimes, but it's left the game with an awkward identity.

I think a lot of people may fall in the mixture category, but perhaps disagree on the ideal balance. Maybe predominantly hardcore with some casual mixed in or the opposite. And then you could break into different aspects of the game. The leveling up process, endgame content, crafting, gathering, etc. Some want crafting/repairing/gathering to be simpler & more casual with fighting being more hardcore. People who mainly do the crafting/repairing/gathering may want to keep it more complex/hardcore. It's their way of being rewarded for the time & effort put into it much like main fighters don't want everyone to easily enjoy the sweet loots they can pick up from difficult content.

It gets complicated. Not just casual or hardcore, but what aspects should be more casual or hardcore. I suppose I'm for a mixture that leans towards hardcore.

Well, at home we happen to be upper/lower. But, when I'm away at school I like to pretend that I'm lower/middle. But, what I aspire to become is middle/middle.
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#14 Jul 26 2011 at 3:53 AM Rating: Good
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I think casual and hardcore can exist but not as it currently stands in FFXIV.

FFXI I think almost had it perfectly when they introduced FoV and EXP rings. But a few things need to be established:

A. A exciting a dynamic world to visit.
B. A fun and engaging combat system. That rewards skill.
C. Great level specific rewards.
D. A 'transparent' UI

To balance casual and hardcore you need to:

1. Have a steep leveling curve, but fill that curve with a lot of content and level restricted gear. (Wow's curve isn't steep, but there's tons of gear and other crap to collect)

2. Have parties gain a significant amount of EXP more than solo. (Wow does not do this, and only encourages PTs in instances)

3. Have soloers make about 3/4 of that of a PT but make them earn it. (Soloing is too easy in WoW, this is where FFXIV could shine)

4. Have different and varied content unique to both. There needs to be hundreds more leves. And a lot more quests. Both party and solo specific. (Again instances kind of do this in WoW) Maybe have a warning on some quests (If you've gained more that X amount of EXP from a PT so far you cannot take this quest)

5. Have an EXP bonus when you don't play.

6. Have the best EQ for groups first, have that same EQ for soloers just obtained differently and taking a bit longer.

You need to have content that the hardcore player will either pass up or complete and move on, and you need to have the soloer get the same EQ but at a later date, or very good gear.

Catering to just the hardcore will surely break the game. No one will play and it will shut down within the year.

Catering to just the casuals or soloers will break the game as hardcores will run all over that content, just as they did with behest and leves.

So that means you have to balance both. But there will have to be massive changes to the curve, the leveling systems, and the quests in order for this to happen. Which means an inevitable wipe and re-start.

In the end I think of these lyrics when thinking about FFXIV:

The more you ignore me
the closer I get
You're wasting your time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nAMFWDuDEI&feature=player_embedded



#15 Jul 26 2011 at 4:29 AM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
4. Have different and varied content unique to both. There needs to be hundreds more leves. And a lot more quests. Both party and solo specific. (Again instances kind of do this in WoW) Maybe have a warning on some quests (If you've gained more that X amount of EXP from a PT so far you cannot take this quest)


I agree, but something inside me tells me that the quest system doesn't lend itself to this game much, if at all. It's nice to see that quests now give SP. but when happens when you're leveling new classes and you've eaten up all the quests? Another problem is that 14's quests (In their current state) Are far too cumbersome. There's a lot more running around than there should be, hopefully some of this will be alleviated with the new settlements, but time will tell.
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#16 Jul 26 2011 at 4:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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TurboTom wrote:

I agree, but something inside me tells me that the quest system doesn't lend itself to this game much, if at all. It's nice to see that quests now give SP. but when happens when you're leveling new classes and you've eaten up all the quests? Another problem is that 14's quests (In their current state) Are far too cumbersome. There's a lot more running around than there should be, hopefully some of this will be alleviated with the new settlements, but time will tell.


That's the thing. Either the class system has to go or be revamped. Or there are thousands of new quests/leves, or it's a grindfest.

The leve system can work, but only with a lot of work.

I had proposed a guildleve system that would basically be given to you at the aetheryte camps (as quest hubs). You would have as many (non-repetitive) leves for that level range 15-25, then go on to the next one. Each city would house 3 distinct "trees" of quests, so you could safely level 3 jobs with no overlap.

Basically my system would make the leves tell a story, to an extent be linear and there would just be more of them.

It would be equally as awesome if there was a solo tree and party tree for questing. But again there would have to be hundreds if not thousands of leves. Or just (at the end of each leve questline, have an optional (or mandatory) party to progress to the next stage.

#17NoireFiction, Posted: Jul 26 2011 at 6:07 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I cant believe people are moaning that the raids aren't hardcore enough.. The games barely getting started and 1.18 was the first step towards a new, brilliant game - that's pretty obvious.
#18 Jul 26 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
TurboTom wrote:

I agree, but something inside me tells me that the quest system doesn't lend itself to this game much, if at all. It's nice to see that quests now give SP. but when happens when you're leveling new classes and you've eaten up all the quests? Another problem is that 14's quests (In their current state) Are far too cumbersome. There's a lot more running around than there should be, hopefully some of this will be alleviated with the new settlements, but time will tell.


That's the thing. Either the class system has to go or be revamped. Or there are thousands of new quests/leves, or it's a grindfest.

The leve system can work, but only with a lot of work.

I had proposed a guildleve system that would basically be given to you at the aetheryte camps (as quest hubs). You would have as many (non-repetitive) leves for that level range 15-25, then go on to the next one. Each city would house 3 distinct "trees" of quests, so you could safely level 3 jobs with no overlap.

Basically my system would make the leves tell a story, to an extent be linear and there would just be more of them.

It would be equally as awesome if there was a solo tree and party tree for questing. But again there would have to be hundreds if not thousands of leves. Or just (at the end of each leve questline, have an optional (or mandatory) party to progress to the next stage.


I might be wrong as all this content is very new but the way to get SP/exp now has nothing to do with leves, these are only to be used by soloers.

If you really want to get sp/exp you should be either using the existing (more to come) dungeons or getting a group to go look for Beastmen (camps is possible). There is also the "old" parties with the usual mobs like the raptors in Coerthas.
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#19 Jul 26 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't want to get into the whole "WoW sucks" discussion that is about to break out here but..

For me it's not challenging or entertaining. I don't feel that the game does a good job of balancing casual and hardcore content, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they don't have challenging content. It's just that any gear you chase down isn't too tough and challenging to eventually get with a bit of persistance and then it will be replaced in the next expansion.


Hardcore to me is best exemplified in FFXI: Relic / Mythic / Empy. weapons

Something that is so time intensive, I will never even try. Something that has it's own section in the Vana 'diel census and see that it is an accomplishment.

Now regardless, AV and Pandy Warden are not the types of challenges I'm looking for, but if something like that was added, I wouldn't be upset. But I would like some things that show who the hardcore players are. Relic gear and AF gear used to be the height of the fashion elite, and remained top gear for quite a long time through many expansions.
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#20 Jul 26 2011 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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Just a random note about quests....main scenario quests give HUGE xp rewards. I just started the level 34 quest, and it gives you half a level's worth of SP (26,500). I think people are trying to shoehorn levelling into one category, be it grinding parties, leves and behests, or questing, but I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Its a combination of everything, including dungeons and story missions, that people should use to level.

Think of it as a "big picture" levelling system. Unfortunately for this topic, that does lend itself to more hardcore play than casual, but there are still some great casual elements worth doing for the rewards.
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#21 Jul 26 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
I don't want to get into the whole "WoW sucks" discussion that is about to break out here but..

For me it's not challenging or entertaining. I don't feel that the game does a good job of balancing casual and hardcore content, but that's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they don't have challenging content. It's just that any gear you chase down isn't too tough and challenging to eventually get with a bit of persistance and then it will be replaced in the next expansion.


Hardcore to me is best exemplified in FFXI: Relic / Mythic / Empy. weapons

Something that is so time intensive, I will never even try. Something that has it's own section in the Vana 'diel census and see that it is an accomplishment.

Now regardless, AV and Pandy Warden are not the types of challenges I'm looking for, but if something like that was added, I wouldn't be upset. But I would like some things that show who the hardcore players are. Relic gear and AF gear used to be the height of the fashion elite, and remained top gear for quite a long time through many expansions.


I know what you mean. I got high warlord in wow (pre cross realm BGs) on one of the hardest servers in the game to get it on(Illidan). It was a 4 month 18+ hour a day time investment. Not only did you have to be playing 18+ hours a day for 4ish months you could not take 1 day off, not 1, if you did you would lose atleast 1 weeks progression mimimum because of the way rankings were calculated weekly. Also you couldnt just be in game standing around spamming jump typically you had to be in a BG in a premade group destroying people fast and when you werent in the BG you needed to be searching down pvp out in the world. I know about hardcore gaming I promise you. I put on atleast 15 lbs while doing that grind : P

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 9:16am by tpgsoldier
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#22 Jul 26 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:

WoW is an example of a company managing to trick people into believing that "hardcore" is nothing more than achievement-hunting, vanity pets, and gear for your lower-level characters.


Unless you are doing progression content. There are literally only a handful of guilds that have downed the current heroic mode bosses, and most aren't even trying. So, end game for them ends up looking very different than end game for people not interested in progression. Those are your hard cores, and your regulars. If you focused on achievements, vanity pets, and gear for your alts, you are not a hard core player and likely didn't even touch progression content.


Kierk wrote:


To balance casual and hardcore you need to:

2. Have parties gain a significant amount of EXP more than solo. (Wow does not do this, and only encourages PTs in instances)

3. Have soloers make about 3/4 of that of a PT but make them earn it. (Soloing is too easy in WoW, this is where FFXIV could shine)


This is where I think you are wrong - this sense of entitlement that soloers shouldn't be able to make leveling progress at a reasonable rate. Putting together parties is fun, but it in no way should be your only option and this is where the community makes their mistakes. End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.

If folks are spending years on boring solo content during the leveling process, it only furthers the gap between the folks at the top and the new folks coming in. Especially without Level sync being implemented (and let's all pray they bring it in), the population will become top heavy and the same thing that happened in XI will happen here, where people could make small progress solo but you couldn't get anywhere without a party, and no one could get a party. People walked away. The game never realized its full potential.

So this mentality of "party or gtfo" in terms of leveling progress needs to be pried from the cold, dead fingers of FFXI and revitalized in XIV.

WoW encourages parties in dungeon content, which is an alternative means of leveling up. PvP content is also group based. Many quests are group quests, and folks join up for those. It's a good model that works, and when you get to max level that's when you decide whether you want to learn to function in a team and do progression content, or you want to be a casual that just farms achievements and vanity items.

It's all about having choice, and not being limited just because a handful of so called "hard cores" don't think that anyone should be able to level unless they can devote 2 hours to flagging and then another 5 to the grind.

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 9:57am by Torrence
#23 Jul 26 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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This is silly. Dungeons are always challenging at first. Then they become easy. You make content hard so people don't blow through it, but once you have more content you make some of the old content easier so new players have more to do, which attracts more new players. This either happens automatically, once older decent gear becomes less desirable and therefor cheaper, or because of increased amount of good loot circulating, or because of inevitable gameplay changes. As a game ages and the level cap increases, people want to spend less time in lower level zones, where none of their friends are, and want to level faster.

The problem, of course, is that we only have 2 dungeons one year after release. By contrast, it appears Rift has 20 (although some are just higher level versions of others). This isn't about whether FFXIV is catering to noobs or pros, it's about whether it's catering to anyone at all.
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#24 Jul 26 2011 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.


This has been my opinion since beta, and I still can't tell if the XIV team sees that.

As Thayos pointed out, the XI team certainly gets it. With the exp rings like the Anniversary Ring, Novennial Ring and Empress Band; Grounds and Fields of Valor; and the express bus known as Abyssea; people can get to cap faster than ever.

XI always was a game that started at cap. And it now has activities at cap to cater to casual and hardcore players. Things like magian weapons (to a point) and moblon maze mongers who just want something quick and social. And the climb to Shinryu, +2s and an all new Dynamis for those still in he hardcore crowd.

I think XIV still can learn a lot from XI. But I also recognize there was another intention behind 1.18: to vacate the population from Ul'dah. Thanks to the specific changes, people seem more spread out.

I'm hoping that was the intention of Yoshi-P and crew, and that they'll make the climb to cap a more casual one, and save the hardcore activities for the folks who would breeze through the ranks anyway. If the fatigue system and the people who have multiple Rank 50s in spite of it proved anything, it's that hardcore isn't in the content, it's in the player.
#25 Jul 26 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.


XI always was a game that started at cap. And it now has activities at cap to cater to casual and hardcore players. Things like magian weapons (to a point) and moblon maze mongers who just want something quick and social. And the climb to Shinryu, +2s and an all new Dynamis for those still in he hardcore crowd.



Say what?!

That... I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the fact that MOST people take at least a year to get their first 75 (pre abyssea)

It took me 3 years.

Now lets look at the things to do along the way, what took me 3 years and kept me there.
Level 1: Nation Missions start at level 1
Level 1: Nation fame to unlock quests
Level 18: Sub job quests
Back to level 1 to level a sub
Level 20: Chocobo quest
Kazham Keys
Level 40ish: Time to get an airhsip pass
more missions
CoP starts at 30
Advanced job quests unlock at 30
AF quests gallore at 40,50-60
Genkai 1-5 / Maat Fight
Many campable NMs at all levels
crafting farming fishing digging chopping
Assault starts at 50
Al zhabi quests
Campaign is viable at 55+
Whitegate tele-points, go collect them
Zilart starts whenever
Besieged is viable whenever if you can cast cure
Ballista and Brenner at all levels.

None of these activities require you to race to 75 like WoW forces you to. You can enjoy the ride up and take your time.
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#26 Jul 26 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
None of these activities require you to race to 75 like WoW forces you to. You can enjoy the ride up and take your time.


I suppose there is significantly more to do today on a player's way to cap. Which just serves to show how much SE should have learned about the difference between the wants of casual and hardcore players. But I was comparing old XI when it was as new as XIV, hence the past tense.

I did most of my leveling in the pre-CoP days, when you did have to be at cap to participate and Zilart missions were rushed through on your way to Sky. Back when a Monk would get booted for not gaving OKote at 35 and the RMT had Mee Deggi on lock down.

By the time I leveled other jobs I has done most of what you mentioned while already capped.
#27 Jul 26 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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163 posts
Has anyone else noticed the correlation between people playing Hyur Highlanders with bad facial hair and a certain way of looking at FFXIV and MMO's in general?
#28 Jul 26 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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3,530 posts
NumptyHunter wrote:
Has anyone else noticed the correlation between people playing Hyur Highlanders with bad facial hair and a certain way of looking at FFXIV and MMO's in general?


lol. Interesting. @_@
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#29 Jul 26 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

Say what?!

That... I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the fact that MOST people take at least a year to get their first 75 (pre abyssea)

It took me 3 years.

Now lets look at the things to do along the way, what took me 3 years and kept me there.
Level 1: Nation Missions start at level 1
Level 1: Nation fame to unlock quests
Level 18: Sub job quests
Back to level 1 to level a sub
Level 20: Chocobo quest
Kazham Keys
Level 40ish: Time to get an airhsip pass
more missions
CoP starts at 30
Advanced job quests unlock at 30
AF quests gallore at 40,50-60
Genkai 1-5 / Maat Fight
Many campable NMs at all levels
crafting farming fishing digging chopping
Assault starts at 50
Al zhabi quests
Campaign is viable at 55+
Whitegate tele-points, go collect them
Zilart starts whenever
Besieged is viable whenever if you can cast cure
Ballista and Brenner at all levels.

None of these activities require you to race to 75 like WoW forces you to. You can enjoy the ride up and take your time.


Or is it that you are required to stop and perform these tasks in order to progress because there was a thought process behind the leveling? Also, where is the equivalent in XIV that people are currently stopping to do? There is none. There isn't really anything but grinding, and when you base a game around that, there had better be an efficient way to do it or people will **** and moan.

Now I'm not saying that XI got it completely wrong, but everything you listed also requires other people. There isn't one thing there where you won't get stuck on it unless you have at least 2-3 friends either already at cap or a full party. It's a design that doesn't lend itself well to the casual gamer. Why do you think people prefer WoW? It's certainly not because it has better graphics, even when comparing it to XI.

Also, will people STOP bringing WoW into it when you have no idea what you are talking about? WoW has PvP and PvE content at EVERY BRACKET, starting at level 15 when you can start using the LFD tool. Most people don't bother and just quest to cap, but it doesn't mean that it's a race, or that there isn't content. You just ignored the content because you chose to, and you could.

In fact, there's SO much content at every bracket, that there are entire guilds dedicated to locking their level in and doing only that content. It's not just limited to PvP. I wish we could just forget WoW exists and discuss FFXIV, because it doesn't matter what WoW does or doesn't do. Its popularity speaks for itself, whether you personally enjoy the game or not.

SE has some lessons to learn.
#30 Jul 26 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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"Would people please stop bringing up WoW? I am so sick of reading about it and discussing it. I will now contribute to the current WoW argument for the majority of my post."
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#31 Jul 26 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I think SE could uses quests as a great way for Soloers to gain SP. And when you are out of quests or between quests you can party together, for also great exp. If they don't put too many quests like WoW has, you could easily encourage, solo play when your busy or on down time, and party play. This solves the problems about monster strength ect, because they can make a quest award you with whatever amount of SP they want.
#32 Jul 26 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Kierk wrote:
I think casual and hardcore can exist but not as it currently stands in FFXIV.

FFXI I think almost had it perfectly when they introduced FoV and EXP rings. But a few things need to be established:

A. A exciting a dynamic world to visit.
B. A fun and engaging combat system. That rewards skill.
C. Great level specific rewards.
D. A 'transparent' UI

To balance casual and hardcore you need to:

1. Have a steep leveling curve, but fill that curve with a lot of content and level restricted gear. (Wow's curve isn't steep, but there's tons of gear and other crap to collect)

2. Have parties gain a significant amount of EXP more than solo. (Wow does not do this, and only encourages PTs in instances)

3. Have soloers make about 3/4 of that of a PT but make them earn it. (Soloing is too easy in WoW, this is where FFXIV could shine)

4. Have different and varied content unique to both. There needs to be hundreds more leves. And a lot more quests. Both party and solo specific. (Again instances kind of do this in WoW) Maybe have a warning on some quests (If you've gained more that X amount of EXP from a PT so far you cannot take this quest)

5. Have an EXP bonus when you don't play.

6. Have the best EQ for groups first, have that same EQ for soloers just obtained differently and taking a bit longer.

You need to have content that the hardcore player will either pass up or complete and move on, and you need to have the soloer get the same EQ but at a later date, or very good gear.

Catering to just the hardcore will surely break the game. No one will play and it will shut down within the year.

Catering to just the casuals or soloers will break the game as hardcores will run all over that content, just as they did with behest and leves.

So that means you have to balance both. But there will have to be massive changes to the curve, the leveling systems, and the quests in order for this to happen. Which means an inevitable wipe and re-start.

In the end I think of these lyrics when thinking about FFXIV:

The more you ignore me
the closer I get
You're wasting your time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nAMFWDuDEI&feature=player_embedded






I couldn't agree more. If they are going to have both playstyles, they really need to have balance. Well said and rate up.
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#33 Jul 26 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
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Kierk wrote:

In the end I think of these lyrics when thinking about FFXIV:

The more you ignore me
the closer I get
You're wasting your time...


Wow... did you really just quote Morrisey when you discussed your feelings about how SE is treating you..

You want to borrow my culinarian's knife for that wrist of yours?
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#34 Jul 26 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some VERY quick thoughts...

This is my belief about the direction SE is taking.

Focus Raid rewards around gear (AF, JSE, etc.) and perhaps around learned abilities. Someone who has more time to spend exploring and challenging the raids would be able to achieve more rewards open up more secrets.

Focus leves towards casual and solo players. The rewards for leves would be more of a balance between EXP, Gear, etc... You can't get the really good stuff but the rewards are there for the casual gamers to help them keep pace.

Quests/Storyline can be accomplished by all regardless of gear, rewards, etc...

My own personal addition to this strategy is:

Bring back EXP Chains to encourage party play. Make chains more challenging to obtain then in FFXI but greater rewards for consistent skillful play and effort. There wouldn't be fabulous rewards other than increase SP/XP gain so you can level faster. This is what I envision "Strength in Numbers" is for. Take on more difficult monsters and get greater rewards for speed and skillful play. Loved Merit Points too from XI something similar would be fun.

Probably totally off base but my 2 cents.

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 4:01pm by kainsilv
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#35 Jul 26 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
"Would people please stop bringing up WoW? I am so sick of reading about it and discussing it. I will now contribute to the current WoW argument for the majority of my post."


"And I will choose not to contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way at all, instead just generally being unpleasant because I don't like the facts presented to me."

You also left out a crucial part of my comment. It was that the remarks being made about WoW are uneducated and untrue by folks who didn't experience the content. I wish we could take WoW out of the equation only because folks cannot discuss it maturely - they would rather base their discussions on rumor and word of mouth. It's dangerous, and that's how the facts get obscured and opinions get formed that cannot possibly allow one to look at the situation objectively.
#36 Jul 26 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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@Torrence

I never suggested that soloers couldn't progress. And in fact I hated LFG, but I'm not going to rehash what I've said for over a year about how the LFG in FFXIV should have been revamped into a more mature FFXI system. So in the end I agree with you.

A public party system ala Rift would have been very cool. But instead FFXIV went backwards in regards to the PT system.

Speaking of Rift, I loved all of the solo content that game had to offer but it didn't have one thing. Depth. And unfortunately time and a large leveling curve is the only thing that can present depth. Add great content over a long period of time and I think you would have a recipe for success. Or at least something close to it. Especially if SE's intent is to not be like WoW.

Would have copying, say WoW's formula of solo content and raids worked. Probably. However FFXIV had the unique opportunity to marry both the great and unique aspects of WoW and FFXI, and they didn't. I'm trying to approach the situation as if it were a blank slate and although I'm not against WoW I would have preferred a modified version of FFXI. Despite the original problems partying as a means of progression is very very fun. And I don't think it should be abandoned.

Another idea I had was that a dungeon finder but for quests and quests only. You'd cue up say for a quest and once it had the right amount of members you'd get teleported to the quest area. No different really from any other PUG. You could level sync if you wanted, or make your own group if you wanted.

Soloing in FFXI was great because it was challenging and it felt like I was progressing even though it was at a snails pace. IF SE were to just fill in more of the gaps with solo content and limit the LFG PT times much like FFXI is today (at endgame) I think at least I would be happy. :/



@Louiscool

Yeah I did. But I have my own set of Wusthof knives at home.

But you do get a gold star for summing me up in one song choice.
#37 Jul 26 2011 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
"Would people please stop bringing up WoW? I am so sick of reading about it and discussing it. I will now contribute to the current WoW argument for the majority of my post."


"And I will choose not to contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way at all, instead just generally being unpleasant because I don't like the facts presented to me."

You also left out a crucial part of my comment. It was that the remarks being made about WoW are uneducated and untrue by folks who didn't experience the content. I wish we could take WoW out of the equation only because folks cannot discuss it maturely - they would rather base their discussions on rumor and word of mouth. It's dangerous, and that's how the facts get obscured and opinions get formed that cannot possibly allow one to look at the situation objectively.


Just because you don't agree with my OPINION of WoW, doesn't mean I didn't play or experience the content.

Having content at other levels (instanced dungeons every 10 levels or so) doesn't mean the game gave the player any reason to take part in them. The rewards for dungeon diving along your path to cap were quickly outclassed a few levels later by other gear given from quest givers.

So the playerbase, for the most part, raced toward endgame. Yes, FFXI did have some barriers that would stop you from leveling further and experiencing content. Is that so terrible?

The missionlines all offered access to endgame content, exclusive gear or spells that remain top tier, and generally give large reasons to complete them.

You make large assumptions about peoples knowledge, that's "dangerous."

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 4:43pm by Louiscool
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#38 Jul 26 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:

Having content at other levels (instanced dungeons every 10 levels or so) doesn't mean the game gave the player any reason to take part in them. The rewards for dungeon diving along your path to cap were quickly outclassed a few levels later by other gear given from quest givers.


Ok, but are we talking about experiencing content because of the rewards, or experiencing content because of the content? Need to make up our minds, because if we make it all about the rewards we lose the reason for playing the content in the first place. Every dungeon had a story, and every dungeon had a reason for being there. Every boss was part of the lore. That's what I thought we all were talking about and looking for when discussing FFXIV content, so we can't just declare other games content crap because gear pieces were outclassed by the next set.

Otherwise, it's just a gear grab and we don't really actually care about content at all. Which is it?

Louiscool wrote:

So the playerbase, for the most part, raced toward endgame. Yes, FFXI did have some barriers that would stop you from leveling further and experiencing content. Is that so terrible?


It's not, and I did acknowledge that, if you'll re-read my post. I simply questioned whether it was good that all of it required help of other players either at cap or a full 6 man team at the same level. Let's also remember, that a lot of the stuff we are arguing about pre-dates things like level sync and the world of 75+. We have to look at the content at the target level it was intended for and ask ourselves if the content had realistic requirements for keeping a very consistent and healthy population. The answer depends largely on who you are asking, but I thought that SE was setting their sights in the millions this time around, rather than the couple hundreds of thousands.

Having these roadblocks didn't stop anyone from trying to reach 75 and do missions because they wanted to do Dynamis, Sea, Sky, and all the other end game content that you wouldn't be invited to unless you were at the cap.

Louiscool wrote:

The missionlines all offered access to endgame content, exclusive gear or spells that remain top tier, and generally give large reasons to complete them.


I'll agree with that, and I enjoyed missions opening access to new areas. It's a good concept, but there is none of that here as yet. We are now talking about something that doesn't even exist in this game. WoW had this too, to some extent. You would have to reach a certain level of proficiency before you were allowed to progress, and the progression content was a major gear check. You didn't get access to new wings\floors of dungeons without progressing, and then once you do, the content is on farm for gear. It's really not that different from the XI method, it's just that XI masked it with more of a cutscene driven story as opposed to a dungeon dive. The end result was the same though: get to end game, and farm content for the next 6 months.

You don't have to tell me about XI's strengths, because I played it for over 6 years. I loved the game, and I wanted to love this one. However, I don't let it cloud my judgment, and let's be very clear on something:


Louiscool wrote:

You make large assumptions about peoples knowledge, that's "dangerous."


I read facts that people have written, and when I see something that is an opinion masquerading as fact, I correct it. I don't think you have done progression content in WoW, because your description of "end game" is nowhere near the reality. You have a solid knowledge of XI though, and that shines through.

SE does have some things to learn, both from mainstream games on the market now, and their own past successes. We as the players owe it to the game and to the developers to be objective in our criticism.
#39 Jul 26 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Good topic by the way. I was a no-lifer a long time ago, easily dedicating at least 4-5 hours/day, 7 days/week to my MMO of choice: whether it was EQ, FFXI, WoW (vanilla), or whatever the MMO flavor of the month was at the time. Now I'm older and I just don't have that kind of free time anymore. But I think that the genre seems to have grown up with me, and most of the current generation MMO's just don't require that level of fanatical dedication to succeed or even excel at the games.

I would definitely say that the MMO pendulum has swung in the direction of "casual" away from "hardcore", for better and for worse. These games are addictive and their can be some devastating side effects to any addiction. We've all heard the stories of failed marriages, broken families, lost jobs, poor health, etc. from MMO addiction. The games shouldn't be so time consuming and all consuming that you have to invest countless hours to progress and achieve any modicum of success.

However, making the games easier and more casual friendly opens the flood gates to more immature players as well as players from different gaming genres (goodbye D&D nerds, hello FPS tweakers, console gamers, etc.). This degrades the quality of the MMO community.

With all that being said...despite the evolution of the genre, I'm pretty sure that FFXIV will end-up as a hardcore ultra-grindy MMO. It's what SE knows, it's what SE does, and it's largely what their community and player base wants. There's no shame in that: FFXI was a horrible time sink grind of a game and I loved every second of it. It's by far and away the best MMO I've ever had the joy of playing.

It's what they do best and it's what they should do with FFXIV. SE tried to reinvent the wheel, but with each patch I think we will see them sweep some XIV under the rug and turn this game into the FFXI-2 it should have been since launch.

Quote:
Think of it like this we were mountain biking on the kiddie trails. We told SE were were ready for some challenge instead of taking us off the kiddie trails they took a sledge hammer and destroyed our bike and told us enjoy the new challenge.


That's pretty funny and pretty accurate.
#40 Jul 26 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,120 posts
thejones wrote:
However, making the games easier and more casual friendly opens the flood gates to more immature players as well as players from different gaming genres (goodbye D&D nerds, hello FPS tweakers, console gamers, etc.). This degrades the quality of the MMO community.


They've opened up Bushwood to the general public. It's an outrage!
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#41 Jul 26 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
thejones wrote:
However, making the games easier and more casual friendly opens the flood gates to more immature players as well as players from different gaming genres (goodbye D&D nerds, hello FPS tweakers, console gamers, etc.). This degrades the quality of the MMO community.


They've opened up Bushwood to the general public. It's an outrage!



Giggle...


Wait, crap I hope I didn't derail my own thread just now...
#42 Jul 26 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
Torrence wrote:


This is where I think you are wrong - this sense of entitlement that soloers shouldn't be able to make leveling progress at a reasonable rate. Putting together parties is fun, but it in no way should be your only option and this is where the community makes their mistakes. End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.

If folks are spending years on boring solo content during the leveling process, it only furthers the gap between the folks at the top and the new folks coming in. Especially without Level sync being implemented (and let's all pray they bring it in), the population will become top heavy and the same thing that happened in XI will happen here, where people could make small progress solo but you couldn't get anywhere without a party, and no one could get a party. People walked away. The game never realized its full potential.



Thank you. I used to argue in favour of gimping solo exp because I thought it was the only way of making partying viable, but I've since seen the light. ***** that. If most of the time you spend on a game is spent grinding levels, the game isn't worth playing in my opinion.

Now while leveling is still mostly done in groups in XI, soloing is viable and they have taken a lot of the pain out of leveling, thank god. For the first of many times going back to that game, I am spending more time doing things other than exping, and it is awesome.

Until XIV offers me that experience, I don't think I'll be returning. Grinding mobs for hours for a single level is something I am simply "over" after experiencing the new and improved XI. It isn't hard, it isn't challenging, and it isn't "hardcore" either - it is just silly and masochistic and boring.

Edited, Jul 26th 2011 10:12pm by Olorinus
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#43 Jul 27 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Ok, but are we talking about experiencing content because of the rewards, or experiencing content because of the content? Need to make up our minds, because if we make it all about the rewards we lose the reason for playing the content in the first place. Every dungeon had a story, and every dungeon had a reason for being there. Every boss was part of the lore. That's what I thought we all were talking about and looking for when discussing FFXIV content, so we can't just declare other games content crap because gear pieces were outclassed by the next set.

Otherwise, it's just a gear grab and we don't really actually care about content at all. Which is it?
Its just the way of the world that people want rewards for their efforts. Hence the awesome Promathia Rings and XP rewards added to the end of boss fights later in FFXI's life. Its true that WoW has the content, if you go looking for it, but if you do, you feel almost side-lined as your friends rush ahead in levels and equipment. While they're enjoying the 'endgame' content, you're still stuck exploring. It's no surprise the majority of players will follow the flow.

That said, FFXIV isn't that much better right now. There's a lot of work to be done before it matches FFXI on quality of gameplay but hey, at least its prettier!
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#44 Jul 27 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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I see a good balance with casual/hardcore atm.

As it stands now it can be seen that Leves and Behest serve a casual playerbase, as well as use of anima and changes to return.

For hardcore they have dungeons to play with for 4 party rank 25 and 8 party rank 45. However in the same breath those dungeons can be enjoyed by casual because of it's time limit, a short one at that, but not to short to discourage casuals from trying it out.

In this means the difference between casual/hardcore come off more from the opportunity to have more chances at trying a dungeon as well as spending more time xping in the world to reach level cap faster. I'm not trying to act like a white knight for this game but I'm seriously impressed with how well this patch has been. I do believe they'll be able to create the perfect harmony to support both gamers without discouraging one side or the other. As one who had been edgy towards auto-battle changes, since they managed to pull it off quite well I'm more confident in the teams ability as a whole. I think anyone who may of have doubts about the game would appreciate how much better it is compared to release and all the hard work they have put into the game. I was thinking of just checking out the patch, getting bored and waiting for next patch. However, I've actually been hooked in to play on and possibly hit level cap with my preferred classes lol. granted I may take a break after a while and wait for 1.19 but overall it surprises me how well this patch has done to actually make me wanna play the game for a few hours lol.
#45 Jul 27 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
WoW is an example of a company managing to trick people into believing that "hardcore" is nothing more than achievement-hunting, vanity pets, and gear for your lower-level characters.

An achievement is an achievement regardless of whether or not a point system is tied in somehow. Everyone who plays MMOs are after some sort of achievement. It might be a leve quest or a rank of crafting. It might be a rare pet or clearing an instance. I don't understand the logic of trying to tie achievements, vanity pets and low level gear to the term 'hardcore'. None of these things are in any way related.
Louiscool wrote:
I'm not saying they don't have challenging content. It's just that any gear you chase down isn't too tough and challenging to eventually get with a bit of persistance and then it will be replaced in the next expansion.

It makes perfect sense. With the expansions the level cap is raised and the gear gets better. Perhaps you just don't understand the idea of progression?

When I played XI, one of the most sought after pieces of equipment for a DD was the famed Peacock Charm. A level 33 item that was still valid more than 40 levels later in the game(pre and probably even still now post abyssea). It didn't come from an intense boss battle. It wasn't earned by completing a deep and involved quest chain. The only reason this item had so much value was that it was extremely rare due to a horrible drop rate and the amount of time involved to collect it(camped or farmed).

This is key to the fundamental argument that underlies any discussion(or flaming) of the term 'hardcore' in WoW and XI/XIV. People who play WoW feel that 'hardcore' refers to people who focus on progression. The only similarities that Blizzard and SE MMOs share in that department are between relics and legendary weapons.

Anyone can imply that XI is more 'hardcore' than WoW and they are welcome to that opinion, but they should keep in mind the theme of progression that dominates WoW and is absent from SE's MMOs. Lower tier gear is more easily obtained because it is necessary to progress. Gear is/was incredibly hard to obtain in XI because once you obtained it, there wasn't anywhere to go from there.

It's also important to note that you only have access to one class for a character in WoW. Gear needs to be outdated, updated and improved upon to keep people interested. XI managed to keep many players around with the 'carrot on a stick' of collecting hard to obtain items for 20+ different classes. If you didn't have the ability to change your job whenever you wanted, the lifespan of XI would probably have been a fraction of what it is. Think about it.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 6:13am by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#46 Jul 27 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Decent
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So according to Yoshi P:
"It looks like about 280 people have cleared Dzemael Darkhold (as of Tuesday, July 26 at 2:00 a.m. PDT / at 9:00 a.m. GMT). But there are rewards you can’t get just by killing the last boss. Stick to it, though, and keep searching for the key to unlocking that additional treasure! (That’s a metaphor. It’s not an actual key...) :p"

So anyone got those from this "easy" dungeon yet, eh?

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 8:10am by NumptyHunter
#47Louiscool, Posted: Jul 27 2011 at 6:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Then why not go back to =10?
#48 Jul 27 2011 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Go from 30-90 in a few hours while you sit there! Wow, it makes my experience so much more enjoyable to join a group and realize 6 people aren't playing and I'm essentially leveling them up by doing all the work


Sometimes the playerbase just needs to police itself. Leechers should be kicked simple enough.

Quote:
You obviously do. It has some great things but it's also easy mode.


Here's a list of MMOs.

Of them, I count 35 "major" active or upcoming games. I also count Dust 514 but it's not listed there. While they all may not be as successful as some if the few behemoths of the genre, they still take a sliver of the pie.

Some people have the time to play more than one MMO. Most don't. And the developers know this. This is why "casual" is becoming a pervasive topic in the community. Developers need new business.

In addition, MMO veterans will eventually hit a leveling fatigue. How many times can the MMO core be expected to jump ship and start from scratch with a new title?

A decade ago, when there were few titles and the market was a niche, selling the grind as "content" was acceptable. But if these titles are expected to survive in an ever crowding genre, developers need to allow the grind to be "easy mode" and find other ways to retain subscribers. Casual players won't be entertained by a grind to any real content.

I believe SE is heading in the right direction here. The road to cap should only take a few weeks. The devs should instead focus on deep and lengthy quest lines and raids with multiple paths to victory where everyone gets a little closer to their own prize with seals.

I think something like the creation of Materia should lend itself to hardcore. A sort of grind after cap where players can use the best gear to eventually make it even better.

There seems to be a common misconception that casuals want to be able to do all the things hardcores can but with less effort, which isn't true. Casual players just don't want to spend 4-6 months staring at their exp bar as it slowly fills.

That way, casuals get to play the game and hardcores still get to stand on their mountain.
#49Louiscool, Posted: Jul 27 2011 at 11:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I can see that point of view, but it's not the time commitment that stops me from playing multiple mmos. It's subscription fees. I'll play free mmos all day.
#50 Jul 27 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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1,313 posts
Nevermind. Filth hit the nail on the head.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 2:30pm by Transmigration
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#51 Jul 27 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

Seriously, I do not want abyssea in FFXIV. You obviously do. It has some great things but it's also easy mode. Every single job I have at cap took long hours. Now it's like "Puhh, you only have 6 jobs at 75-90?? You suck" because everyone and their mother just hits 30 and throws their sh*tty job into an abyssea party and leeches.


Well, this at least is something we can agree on. I'm not against Abyssea as a concept, but I do think that it is an event that should have started at 75, or maybe even 70 rather than 30. In their quest to make content accessible to everyone, they also managed to make it exploitable by anyone.

However, we are still talking about a game that is in the twilight of its life, and I'd like to think that SE did learn their lesson here. I don't expect we will see that sort of thing in XIV. It's more of a free for all party for those last folks in XI before it gets relegated to the back servers. Eventually one game will be on top, and even if it isn't this one, it's not going to be XI. They will put more effort into their "new" rumored mmo than they will put back into a game that still boasts support for the Ps2.

Again, it's a great game and I played it for most of my adult life, but just as it pulled back in folks like Olo with the promise of magical new battlegrounds, it pushed away folks like us. And yet here the three of us are, watching to see if this game will recapture the magic we all obviously felt during our stay in Vana'diel.

I guess we will see - but I'm certainly not suggesting that they copy everything from XI bit for bit, and this is probably one thing that, in its current form, I'd vote to leave out. Large scale group content is great, but it has to have some meaning or we will be in the same boat of tons of folks with rank 50 jobs that have no clue what they are doing.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 8:28pm by Torrence
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