Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Separation Anxiety: XIV and the eventual alienationFollow

#52 Jul 28 2011 at 2:04 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
279 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.


XI always was a game that started at cap. And it now has activities at cap to cater to casual and hardcore players. Things like magian weapons (to a point) and moblon maze mongers who just want something quick and social. And the climb to Shinryu, +2s and an all new Dynamis for those still in he hardcore crowd.



Say what?!

That... I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the fact that MOST people take at least a year to get their first 75 (pre abyssea)

It took me 3 years.

Now lets look at the things to do along the way, what took me 3 years and kept me there.
Level 1: Nation Missions start at level 1
Level 1: Nation fame to unlock quests
Level 18: Sub job quests
Back to level 1 to level a sub
Level 20: Chocobo quest
Kazham Keys
Level 40ish: Time to get an airhsip pass
more missions
CoP starts at 30
Advanced job quests unlock at 30
AF quests gallore at 40,50-60
Genkai 1-5 / Maat Fight
Many campable NMs at all levels
crafting farming fishing digging chopping
Assault starts at 50
Al zhabi quests
Campaign is viable at 55+
Whitegate tele-points, go collect them
Zilart starts whenever
Besieged is viable whenever if you can cast cure
Ballista and Brenner at all levels.

None of these activities require you to race to 75 like WoW forces you to. You can enjoy the ride up and take your time.


I agree with this 100% and I would love if ff14 focused more on stuff to do like any of listed above instead of just "grind" behest/leve/crafting which is all there is to do mostly, and all the new generation mentality where they need to rush to max level in order to finally enjoy the game according to them. Imagine back in the good old days where you played a game for the experience through all the levels, and every few levels you have something completely new to look foward to.

"So this mentality of "party or gtfo" in terms of leveling progress needs to be pried from the cold, dead fingers of FFXI and revitalized in XIV. "

why do people insist on playing a MMORPG or massively [MULTIPLAYER] online role playing game and want to solo? i still don't understand this logic if you wanted to play solo why not play a single player game? This totally defeats the purpose of online gaming, its like playing any online fps and play by yourself against bots online @.@, why not just single player XD lol.

the new generation of gamers are extremely lazy/want everything given to them on a silver platter/put no effort behind anything, and if anything its difficult they instantly rage quit and whine about it. I started gaming back during nintendo days and we all used to love the challenge and thinking that came with gaming. I don't get why people like to and want things to be rushed till the end, its like starting to read a book and get tired after 3 pages and skip to end lol. Anyways enough with analogy, SE needs to either make it hardcore or softcore only games which are hybrid tend to never do good and its extremely hard to please everyone.

P.S- FF11 during fields of valor release and treasures of Aht Urghan + magic bursting tactical old days would be the greatest mmorpg ever, and FF11 still the best mmorpg i played till this day.

also "Seriously, I do not want abyssea in FFXIV" I agree with this 100% abyssea as concept was good but it should of been for 75+ it made the game ****** friendly.



Edited, Jul 28th 2011 4:07am by KingAlkaiser
____________________________
I Am Alpha And Omega
The Beginning And The End
The First And The Last
--------------------------
DRG/WAR-http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
SMN/WHM- http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
#53 Jul 28 2011 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
KingAlkaiser wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Quote:
End game is end game, and it shouldn't spill over into leveling up. Leveling up needs to feel like progress, and half a level a day grinding marmots isn't progress.


XI always was a game that started at cap. And it now has activities at cap to cater to casual and hardcore players. Things like magian weapons (to a point) and moblon maze mongers who just want something quick and social. And the climb to Shinryu, +2s and an all new Dynamis for those still in he hardcore crowd.



Say what?!

That... I don't even know where to begin...

Let's start with the fact that MOST people take at least a year to get their first 75 (pre abyssea)

It took me 3 years.

Now lets look at the things to do along the way, what took me 3 years and kept me there.
Level 1: Nation Missions start at level 1
Level 1: Nation fame to unlock quests
Level 18: Sub job quests
Back to level 1 to level a sub
Level 20: Chocobo quest
Kazham Keys
Level 40ish: Time to get an airhsip pass
more missions
CoP starts at 30
Advanced job quests unlock at 30
AF quests gallore at 40,50-60
Genkai 1-5 / Maat Fight
Many campable NMs at all levels
crafting farming fishing digging chopping
Assault starts at 50
Al zhabi quests
Campaign is viable at 55+
Whitegate tele-points, go collect them
Zilart starts whenever
Besieged is viable whenever if you can cast cure
Ballista and Brenner at all levels.

None of these activities require you to race to 75 like WoW forces you to. You can enjoy the ride up and take your time.


I agree with this 100% and I would love if ff14 focused more on stuff to do like any of listed above instead of just "grind" behest/leve/crafting which is all there is to do mostly, and all the new generation mentality where they need to rush to max level in order to finally enjoy the game according to them. Imagine back in the good old days where you played a game for the experience through all the levels, and every few levels you have something completely new to look foward to.

"So this mentality of "party or gtfo" in terms of leveling progress needs to be pried from the cold, dead fingers of FFXI and revitalized in XIV. "

why do people insist on playing a MMORPG or massively [MULTIPLAYER] online role playing game and want to solo? i still don't understand this logic if you wanted to play solo why not play a single player game? This totally defeats the purpose of online gaming, its like playing any online fps and play by yourself against bots online @.@, why not just single player XD lol.

the new generation of gamers are extremely lazy/want everything given to them on a silver platter/put no effort behind anything, and if anything its difficult they instantly rage quit and whine about it. I started gaming back during nintendo days and we all used to love the challenge and thinking that came with gaming. I don't get why people like to and want things to be rushed till the end, its like starting to read a book and get tired after 3 pages and skip to end lol. Anyways enough with analogy, SE needs to either make it hardcore or softcore only games which are hybrid tend to never do good and its extremely hard to please everyone.

P.S- FF11 during fields of valor release and treasures of Aht Urghan + magic bursting tactical old days would be the greatest mmorpg ever, and FF11 still the best mmorpg i played till this day.

also "Seriously, I do not want abyssea in FFXIV" I agree with this 100% abyssea as concept was good but it should of been for 75+ it made the game ****** friendly.



Edited, Jul 28th 2011 4:07am by KingAlkaiser


It is not the people, it is game developers who cater to casuals, and using logic, it makes sense, more people more money, company's like money, i like money, if i can get more money targeting a specific audience, rather than another, why not ? Plus FFXI is FFXI, if you think FFXIV will or has any hope of turning into FFXI then sorry, it wont happen, and even if there is a hope that it would, it would probably be to little to late.

Now on another note, not all casual content is bad, just like not all hardcore content is bad, could they focus on both camps ? Maybe, would people be happy ? Nope!
____________________________
MUTED
#54 Jul 28 2011 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,408 posts
Some nice chats about the Abyss idea, post made about how you progress through XI is great. Only big issue is the Grind and they changed it and people still complain and cry. I dont see how XI is so much easier now more like better accessed.
You dont need to spend 45 mins gathering for 18 people to do dyna/sky runs or compete with the same HNM shells like you used to. Spend so much time in the hope you get that 1 single drop.

You had to compete for the HNM/NM/Run
Gather together
Make sure everyone was fully prepared and knew what they were doing
Make sure you are covered for all the jobs and extra's incase wipes/deaths occured

So before you have even started you had all the above, I dont see how removing pretty much all that makes XI easy just less time wasting. The only thing that makes Abyssea easy is the Brew which is also limited and most of the time you need a certain NM about 10x + to get your drops worth which is a lot of Cru to use up.

Casual content is a great idea, XI right now can still be played by Hardcore or by the casual and that is why people are still returning left right and centre to XI. As for abyssea some thing similar will pop along, why waste a good idea - XI they can add anything and everything to see what we as players like. Do you think SE is really going to care about the 1 cry baby over the 9 other players who love it?

I was VERY iffy about all the changes SE made, I loved the idea of getting more levels and really wasnt sure about Abyssea in fact I avoided it and stuck to campaign - 1 month later I got involved and loved it.
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#55 Jul 28 2011 at 5:21 AM Rating: Default
****
4,149 posts
Lonix wrote:
The only thing that makes Abyssea easy is the Brew which is also limited and most of the time you need a certain NM about 10x + to get your drops worth which is a lot of Cru to use up.

IIRC they added multiple spawn points for NMs. This makes it so that if you farm the key items you can pop a few NMs at a time, drink a brew and basically solo 3 at the same time. To be frank, there is nothing at all in abyssea that is difficult.

I take that back... It is difficult to keep your group from obliterating NMs within 30 seconds of spawning unless everyone has their backs turned waiting on the bard to try and figure out which song correlates to the !! you need. I don't even want to get started on the fiasco that is the stagger system.


____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#56 Jul 28 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Lonix wrote:
The only thing that makes Abyssea easy is the Brew which is also limited and most of the time you need a certain NM about 10x + to get your drops worth which is a lot of Cru to use up.

IIRC they added multiple spawn points for NMs. This makes it so that if you farm the key items you can pop a few NMs at a time, drink a brew and basically solo 3 at the same time. To be frank, there is nothing at all in abyssea that is difficult.

I take that back... It is difficult to keep your group from obliterating NMs within 30 seconds of spawning unless everyone has their backs turned waiting on the bard to try and figure out which song correlates to the !! you need. I don't even want to get started on the fiasco that is the stagger system.




I do appreciate the AF3 upgrade system in FFXI, as it is a better concept than dynamis drop hunting, and spawnable NMs are much better than lottery pops.

But the stagger system is just not implemented correctly and basically says "war monk and blm are the only jobs you should level."


What I really want from FFXIV is mobs that take longer to kill, but offer higher exp rewards. The things we party on now is akin to a merit party where you jut kill as fast as possible for small rewards. It doesn't give the battle enough time to require strategy. It's still just spam your moves.

I feel like a good way to reduce the grind would be to introduce mobs that absolutely require a balanced party to take down, but offer great rewards so that killing these monsters would be more exp/hr than soloing. I mean isn't that the point?

As archer, I can solo something 10 levels above me which is the sp cap. It's faster with a group but not by much.
____________________________


#57 Jul 28 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Louiscool wrote:

I feel like a good way to reduce the grind would be to introduce mobs that absolutely require a balanced party to take down, but offer great rewards so that killing these monsters would be more exp/hr than soloing. I mean isn't that the point?


That might be the point for you...and it's also the point (to at least some extent) for the raiding communities in other games that didn't botch their launch and languish for months as F2P (not even a cash shop!) while the new leadership struggles mightily to turn it into something that can actually generate revenue.

The thing is, other games (which tend to be more successful than XI/XIV, btw) don't feel the need to put group content everywhere and leave scraps for the solo players. XIV suffered heavily in regard to previous statements about a solo accessible game when the devs decided to arbitrarily slash SP gain for rank 20+. Open world grinding as a group-favoring grind is so 10 years ago. It's over. It's done.

Do you complain that you don't have to walk around to the front of your car and turn a crank to start it?

Progress, man. The genre has evolved.

XIV is all over the place. The closer YoshiP gets to a unified result that could save the game, the farther he seems to get from it. Sometimes that's what it takes. Sometimes you have to make a bigger mess before you can fix things. I just think that SE isn't even at the half way mark in turning XIV around, and that dag nab clock is still ticking.
#58 Jul 28 2011 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not playing those more successful mmos. I don't see a point in paying a monthly fee for a solo rpg. I have plenty of those.

If the game doesn't reward people for partying up to take down tougher monsters, then players wont team up, which then loses the "massive" part.

I'm not saying it should be painful lfg for hours like ffxi... I like small group content personally, a blend between hardcore and casual.

But I want the mmo part to be more than just a group chat room while we all run around soloing. To me the car analogy doesn't work, because cranking the car isn't more efficient, which is what partying should be.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 12:04pm by Louiscool
____________________________


#59 Jul 28 2011 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
**
557 posts
Sure, plenty of other successful games are solo-friendly. But almost all the long-term MMO players I know--hardcore and otherwise--eventually prefer leveling via dungeons, which is simply a way to group grind getting high experience. It'd be great if FFXIV could have both, but I don't think SE has the resources to do a decent job with both. It's a niche game, and will always be a niche game--it needs to decide what that niche is.
____________________________


#60 Jul 28 2011 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,530 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Do you complain that you don't have to walk around to the front of your car and turn a crank to start it?

Progress, man. The genre has evolved.


Well, I use my car just to get somewhere, not to have fun or experience an interesting story.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#61 Jul 28 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not playing those more successful mmos. I don't see a point in paying a monthly fee for a solo rpg. I have plenty of those.

If the game doesn't reward people for partying up to take down tougher monsters, then players wont team up, which then loses the "massive" part.

I'm not saying it should be painful lfg for hours like ffxi... I like small group content personally, a blend between hardcore and casual.

But I want the mmo part to be more than just a group chat room while we all run around soloing. To me the car analogy doesn't work, because cranking the car isn't more efficient, which is what partying should be.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 12:04pm by Louiscool



There is no such thing as a solo mmo. Community is what you make of it, and if all you do is play by yourself, then you have made it a solo mmo. Forcing group content because there is a lack of viable alternatives will take this game down the exact same path as XI went: peaking at about ~500k subs and then gradually dropping back off as people grow out of it and have less time to devote to doing nothing.

SE is targeting an audience that largely grew up. We have less time to jerk around waiting for an invite while watching our moogles spin. I don't mind parties being a viable way of moving forward, but I don't agree that they should be so superior to soloing in every way that it becomes the "only" option. That's what it sounds like whenever folks make comments saying that partying has to have the best rewards.

Let's remember that we are talking about leveling and not NMs, Raids, or any other end game content. NMs need to be taken down by parties, and in some cases, alliances. That makes sense. I don't expect in the least that I or anyone else should be able to solo any of the true end game content.

What doesn't make sense is why it should matter to you whether someone got to 50 solo or in a party. They got to 50 their way, and maybe it meant there were fewer people flagged for LFP, but it will be even worse than that if the game is so unfriendly that people make other choices entirely. And there's far too much choice out there now for SE to realistically believe that centering leveling on the party onry mentality will work a second time.

Leave the group content as raids, missions, and NMs. We need both soloing and partying to be equal options when it comes to leveling.
#62 Jul 28 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
*
215 posts
I think the difference between solo play and party play should be like the difference between an okay party on FF11 and a really great party. So at least if you have no party, you feel you are making progress when you solo. But on 11 (With some exceptions, at least back when I played) solo many times wasn't even worth doing.
#63 Jul 28 2011 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,004 posts
Kierk wrote:
TurboTom wrote:

I agree, but something inside me tells me that the quest system doesn't lend itself to this game much, if at all. It's nice to see that quests now give SP. but when happens when you're leveling new classes and you've eaten up all the quests? Another problem is that 14's quests (In their current state) Are far too cumbersome. There's a lot more running around than there should be, hopefully some of this will be alleviated with the new settlements, but time will tell.


That's the thing. Either the class system has to go or be revamped. Or there are thousands of new quests/leves, or it's a grindfest.

The leve system can work, but only with a lot of work.

I had proposed a guildleve system that would basically be given to you at the aetheryte camps (as quest hubs). You would have as many (non-repetitive) leves for that level range 15-25, then go on to the next one. Each city would house 3 distinct "trees" of quests, so you could safely level 3 jobs with no overlap.

Basically my system would make the leves tell a story, to an extent be linear and there would just be more of them.

It would be equally as awesome if there was a solo tree and party tree for questing. But again there would have to be hundreds if not thousands of leves. Or just (at the end of each leve questline, have an optional (or mandatory) party to progress to the next stage.



people like you need to be in the game industry. this is an amazing idea that sounds very interesting that probably wouldn't make it into the game.
#64 Jul 28 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Default
**
557 posts
Entice linkshells to recruit, entice linkshells to run characters together at a variety of levels, entice new players to join linkshells. Of course, you need to fix the broken ls system first, but that should be easy. Then offer rewards.
____________________________


#65 Jul 28 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
One thing I don't understand is why opinions on this topic are so black and white.

Why does casual-friendly automatically have to mean the whole game is a solo experience.

SE had some models to make a casual-friendly MMO experience. I wouldn't mind seeing them bring something similar to Campaign in XI to XIV. Campaign did what some have suggested: allowed soloers to get ok exp and parties to get great exp.

A system like that gives a player a choice to play how they want *now* while masking the grind by giving a sense that they're participating in the world in which the character resides.

Something like campaign along with leves and behest would offer enough variety to keep players chugging along.
#66 Jul 28 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not playing those more successful mmos. I don't see a point in paying a monthly fee for a solo rpg. I have plenty of those.

If the game doesn't reward people for partying up to take down tougher monsters, then players wont team up, which then loses the "massive" part.

I'm not saying it should be painful lfg for hours like ffxi... I like small group content personally, a blend between hardcore and casual.

But I want the mmo part to be more than just a group chat room while we all run around soloing. To me the car analogy doesn't work, because cranking the car isn't more efficient, which is what partying should be.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 12:04pm by Louiscool



There is no such thing as a solo mmo. Community is what you make of it, and if all you do is play by yourself, then you have made it a solo mmo. Forcing group content because there is a lack of viable alternatives will take this game down the exact same path as XI went: peaking at about ~500k subs and then gradually dropping back off as people grow out of it and have less time to devote to doing nothing.

SE is targeting an audience that largely grew up. We have less time to jerk around waiting for an invite while watching our moogles spin. I don't mind parties being a viable way of moving forward, but I don't agree that they should be so superior to soloing in every way that it becomes the "only" option. That's what it sounds like whenever folks make comments saying that partying has to have the best rewards.

Let's remember that we are talking about leveling and not NMs, Raids, or any other end game content. NMs need to be taken down by parties, and in some cases, alliances. That makes sense. I don't expect in the least that I or anyone else should be able to solo any of the true end game content.

What doesn't make sense is why it should matter to you whether someone got to 50 solo or in a party. They got to 50 their way, and maybe it meant there were fewer people flagged for LFP, but it will be even worse than that if the game is so unfriendly that people make other choices entirely. And there's far too much choice out there now for SE to realistically believe that centering leveling on the party onry mentality will work a second time.

Leave the group content as raids, missions, and NMs. We need both soloing and partying to be equal options when it comes to leveling.



^^ This guy gets it, SE hire him Please!!

On a similar note, as long as they have progress for both sides, who cares if some guy got a really nice sword from a leve, or a leve chain quest? Honestly i dont think this game will survive if it ends up being the same party must rule from XI, sitting in Ulda'h waiting for a party for 1-3hrs is not gonna be Fun <.<
____________________________
MUTED
#67 Jul 28 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
569 posts
Ostia wrote:

Honestly i dont think this game will survive if it ends up being the same party must rule from XI, sitting in Ulda'h waiting for a party for 1-3hrs is not gonna be Fun <.<


This, if XIV becomes a XI clone I'll have no choice but to abandon it. In the past i had time to wait 1-3h's for invite and grind for 2-3h. How ever that's no longer an alternative.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#68 Jul 28 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
279 posts
Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Yeah, there's a reason I'm not playing those more successful mmos. I don't see a point in paying a monthly fee for a solo rpg. I have plenty of those.

If the game doesn't reward people for partying up to take down tougher monsters, then players wont team up, which then loses the "massive" part.

I'm not saying it should be painful lfg for hours like ffxi... I like small group content personally, a blend between hardcore and casual.

But I want the mmo part to be more than just a group chat room while we all run around soloing. To me the car analogy doesn't work, because cranking the car isn't more efficient, which is what partying should be.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 12:04pm by Louiscool



There is no such thing as a solo mmo. Community is what you make of it, and if all you do is play by yourself, then you have made it a solo mmo. Forcing group content because there is a lack of viable alternatives will take this game down the exact same path as XI went: peaking at about ~500k subs and then gradually dropping back off as people grow out of it and have less time to devote to doing nothing.

SE is targeting an audience that largely grew up. We have less time to jerk around waiting for an invite while watching our moogles spin. I don't mind parties being a viable way of moving forward, but I don't agree that they should be so superior to soloing in every way that it becomes the "only" option. That's what it sounds like whenever folks make comments saying that partying has to have the best rewards.

Let's remember that we are talking about leveling and not NMs, Raids, or any other end game content. NMs need to be taken down by parties, and in some cases, alliances. That makes sense. I don't expect in the least that I or anyone else should be able to solo any of the true end game content.

What doesn't make sense is why it should matter to you whether someone got to 50 solo or in a party. They got to 50 their way, and maybe it meant there were fewer people flagged for LFP, but it will be even worse than that if the game is so unfriendly that people make other choices entirely. And there's far too much choice out there now for SE to realistically believe that centering leveling on the party onry mentality will work a second time.

Leave the group content as raids, missions, and NMs. We need both soloing and partying to be equal options when it comes to leveling.



the problem with your idea on "getting to 50 your way or my way" is that if people can get the same experience points as fast as someone who can party this would lead people to solo more and ignore party, i mean if i can solo and get 100% of drops a party would get why would i even bother to party? Ill still emphasize the though on online gaming where i don't get why people want to solo everything in the game or get rewarded for doing less work than others. In final fantasy 11 which i thought was almost perfect you can solo to max cap level where no one stopped you from doing it but party wielded more experience.

"Yeah, there's a reason I'm not playing those more successful mmos. I don't see a point in paying a monthly fee for a solo rpg. I have plenty of those. "

I agree with this guy the reason FF11 was in my opinion one of the best mmorpg i because it didn't follow the "wow" or everquest cloning that where released where all people did was talk to npc with icon on top of their head and go kill "x" amount of enemy and get rewarded, rinse and repeat. While in final fantasy 11 you get stronger by killing things, and even though everything was tough it made the game unique/ and I can go on and on but in the end i got the most memorable experiences from the party mechanic and meet tons of people by "Playing together" like online gaming should emphasize on. Every experience you gain and exploration/dangers lurking in every corner was what made FF11 so incredible, coming from gaining level 18 sub jobs, getting to jeuno,kazham keys,airship pass,etc till max levels was what made FF11 not zerging or rushing to level cap thinking everything good is at the end like WoW.
____________________________
I Am Alpha And Omega
The Beginning And The End
The First And The Last
--------------------------
DRG/WAR-http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
SMN/WHM- http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
#69 Jul 28 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Rift does a great thing that I enjoy: Public Grouping.

I would love to see something similar show up. I know we have some form of public grouping but it's not user friendly enough.

For those unfamiliar, you'll just be randomly walking through some rift event or storyline instance and an icon pops up "Join Public Raid Group".

Click it, and your auto grouped. Rift event ends, leave group. Easy peasy.

The reason, which has been said before, that grouping should be rewarded with faster gains, is to encourage grouping.

FFXI has some great solo content now with fields of valor. In that game, it's perfectly viable to solo the whole way up. It's going to be slower, but that's what encourages partying.

I don't feel that soloing shouldn't be viable because I too have less time to play now than when I played FFXI. But I also don't feel like I should do just as well solo as a group. Dragon Age and Mass Effect offer a much better solo experience. When I want that, I can always turn on my Xbox.
____________________________


#70 Jul 28 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
What I really want from FFXIV is mobs that take longer to kill, but offer higher exp rewards.
Same here. Some years ago, there was a PS2 game called "Shadow of the Colossus". An Adventure with exactly 13 boss fights, and nothing else in it. I am o.k. with leves and quick kills for casuals - but FFXIV definitely needs a high risk / high reward option for EXPing.
#71 Jul 28 2011 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
**
557 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Rift does a great thing that I enjoy: Public Grouping.

I would love to see something similar show up. I know we have some form of public grouping but it's not user friendly enough.

For those unfamiliar, you'll just be randomly walking through some rift event or storyline instance and an icon pops up "Join Public Raid Group".

Click it, and your auto grouped. Rift event ends, leave group. Easy peasy.

The reason, which has been said before, that grouping should be rewarded with faster gains, is to encourage grouping.

FFXI has some great solo content now with fields of valor. In that game, it's perfectly viable to solo the whole way up. It's going to be slower, but that's what encourages partying.

I don't feel that soloing shouldn't be viable because I too have less time to play now than when I played FFXI. But I also don't feel like I should do just as well solo as a group. Dragon Age and Mass Effect offer a much better solo experience. When I want that, I can always turn on my Xbox.


This is basically a staple in every other modern on-line game, whether it's called "Quick Join" or "Random Group" or "LFD", in FPS games, strategy games, and MMOs. Even if you have a tight knit guild, linkshell, or clan, even if you have loads of friends who game, you just aren't gonna always find 4, 9, or 24 other people you know to game with when it's convenient for you. The process of finding and joining a random group, either by yourself or with friends, needs to be as easy and fast as possible for a game to do well. If you're making a new MMO and you don't have this, it better be hella solo friendly. It's what killed Aion for me--I never minded the grind, but having to do it alone when you could get ganked any minute, and having all these group and rifting quests and taking hours to find anyone to do it with, and then not even finishing them half the time because people quit and it was so hard to find a replacement tank or healer? So lame.
____________________________


#72 Jul 28 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
I can't agree more. I expected auto-grouping in FFXIV at release. Instead we got something less than the already sub-par grouping of FFXI.

I like the way it works in DC Universe. You go into menu and click on the instance you want to join. You keep playing. When the que fills, it asks you if you are ready to be transported to the instance. Click yes. You are instantly transported to the instance starting point. Group play ensues. After the boss battle, you divvy loot and are instantly teleported back to wherever you were.

No waiting.

Play > Party > Play some more. Brilliant.
#73 Jul 28 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Do you complain that you don't have to walk around to the front of your car and turn a crank to start it?

Progress, man. The genre has evolved.


Well, I use my car just to get somewhere, not to have fun or experience an interesting story.


Ya, that's what people used their cars for back in the day, too, before key ignition systems that let them start their vehicle from the comfort of the driver's seat. The point is that just because you've grown accustomed to doing something one way doesn't mean that any future iterations on the concept are lacking just because they don't appeal to your own personal quirks and idiosyncrasies.

One person says they see no point in paying a monthly MMO sub to play solo. Good for them. They're not the only person who might like to play the game. If $15 a month is a lot of money to you that you can't see past the idea that not everyone who shares virtual space with you is there to fill your parties and make your dreams come true, go mow another lawn. You'll be covered. There are a LOT more players who like solo over here and small group stuff over there and maybe a bit of solo before the large group stuff...and and...and and and...

And if the solo part sucks because some demented developer thinks that making solo play productive and fun will take away from groups, you get a game like FFXIV. Tanaka and his latest "next gen" MMO project fell on their asses because he, like some of the folks here, didn't move with the times. Arrogance and ego-centricity do not make for a good game developer or a good community member.

It's not all or nothing. Me off in my little corner playing solo because I think Olorinus is a meanerface and I don't want to group from her doesn't mean your party experience is ruined because I won't join your group. It means I paid my sub and I'm having fun and that's about as far as your nose in my business is going to go. Tanaka's social engineering projects be damned.


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 1:52pm by Aurelius
#74 Jul 28 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,149 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
I like the way it works in DC Universe...


It was basically borrowed from WoW. Good luck getting anyone around here to sign on to anything that is borrowed from WoW in this game. FF fans are adamant when it comes to this topic for some reason. Why is it so hard to admit that even though they might not like WoW, there are many elements of it that work much better than their counterparts in XI/XIV?


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 6:24pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#75 Jul 28 2011 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Aurelius wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Do you complain that you don't have to walk around to the front of your car and turn a crank to start it?

Progress, man. The genre has evolved.


Well, I use my car just to get somewhere, not to have fun or experience an interesting story.


Ya, that's what people used their cars for back in the day, too, before key ignition systems that let them start their vehicle from the comfort of the driver's seat. The point is that just because you've grown accustomed to doing something one way doesn't mean that any future iterations on the concept are lacking just because they don't appeal to your own personal quirks and idiosyncrasies.

One person says they see no point in paying a monthly MMO sub to play solo. Good for them. They're not the only person who might like to play the game. If $15 a month is a lot of money to you that you can't see past the idea that not everyone who shares virtual space with you is there to fill your parties and make your dreams come true, go mow another lawn. You'll be covered. There are a LOT more players who like solo over here and small group stuff over there and maybe a bit of solo before the large group stuff...and and...and and and...

And if the solo part sucks because some demented developer thinks that making solo play productive and fun will take away from groups, you get a game like FFXIV. Tanaka and his latest "next gen" MMO project fell on their asses because he, like some of the folks here, didn't move with the times. Arrogance and ego-centricity do not make for a good game developer or a good community member.

It's not all or nothing. Me off in my little corner playing solo because I think Olorinus is a meanerface and I don't want to group from her doesn't mean your party experience is ruined because I won't join your group. It means I paid my sub and I'm having fun and that's about as far as your nose in my business is going to go. Tanaka's social engineering projects be damned.


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 1:52pm by Aurelius


Classic Aurelius. It's interesting that you mention 1 persons opinion not being the most important when all I ever read from you is how your opinion is the superior one. Maybe you mistake my opinion for something other than an opinion. You must be mistaken, because I am not a developer for SE and I am not telling anyone how it will be. Relax. And nice attempt at insulting assumptions on the lawn mowing part though, you make a very good point, we should all throw our money at monthly subscriptions, regardless of the game, or how much we enjoy it because it's only 15 dollars and we shouldn't vote with our money,

You're right, a lot of people like playing solo, which is why
a) they make single player games
b) they have so many MMOs that you can go solo through.

Do we need another? I mean I'm not locked in to FFXIV. If they take it the solo route, I can easily stop playing and go play a different MMO, not a problem. So why is this such an issue? Why do you play FFXIV or if you don't and just lurk (which is what I highly suspect) then why are you interested in it at all?

All i got from your posts is "I don't want this Final Fantasy game to be like that other one, I want it to be like every other mmo on the market right now."

So why are you here? Why not another game? I'm seriously asking you this question, if every other game has what you desire, why wish and hope for this one to be that as well?


____________________________


#76 Jul 28 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Classic Aurelius. It's interesting that you mention 1 persons opinion not being the most important when all I ever read from you is how your opinion is the superior one. Maybe you mistake my opinion for something other than an opinion. You must be mistaken, because I am not a developer for SE and I am not telling anyone how it will be. Relax. And nice attempt at insulting assumptions on the lawn mowing part though, you make a very good point, we should all throw our money at monthly subscriptions, regardless of the game, or how much we enjoy it because it's only 15 dollars and we shouldn't vote with our money,


My opinion doesn't alienate anyone. My opinion doesn't hinge around, "This is what I like, and everyone else should be prepared to be penalized for doing something different, otherwise they won't do what *I* like."

You can't point to FFXI as an indicator that a group-centric grind is going to work. The game is old. The genre has advanced. Smart developers have learned this. SE tried to break out of the trend and look what happened. I don't care what you think. I don't care how you try to rationalize it. You ask why, in the presence of so many other solo-friendly MMOs, a developer can't do a group centric game? Because it DOESN'T WORK.

That's all you need to know.

Quote:
Do we need another? I mean I'm not locked in to FFXIV. If they take it the solo route, I can easily stop playing and go play a different MMO, not a problem. So why is this such an issue? Why do you play FFXIV or if you don't and just lurk (which is what I highly suspect) then why are you interested in it at all?


I don't play FFXIV, but I have a Collector's Edition box tucked off in a drawer somewhere that I come across from time to time so I swing by to see what's happening. I would suspect a lot of people who post here are in the same boat. They bought the game, they stopped playing the game, and they stop by from time to time to see what is happening.

Quote:
All i got from your posts is "I don't want this Final Fantasy game to be like that other one, I want it to be like every other mmo on the market right now."


I'd like to see FFXIV succeed. And in the current MMO market, that means they need to cater to more than the group-centric grind aficionados. Period.

Quote:
So why are you here? Why not another game? I'm seriously asking you this question, if every other game has what you desire, why wish and hope for this one to be that as well?


I have active subs to EVE and Rift. I don't come here to bash FFXIV. I'm just furthering a discussion.
#77 Jul 28 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
***
3,530 posts
Louiscool wrote:
Do we need another? I mean I'm not locked in to FFXIV. If they take it the solo route, I can easily stop playing and go play a different MMO, not a problem. So why is this such an issue? Why do you play FFXIV or if you don't and just lurk (which is what I highly suspect) then why are you interested in it at all?

All i got from your posts is "I don't want this Final Fantasy game to be like that other one, I want it to be like every other mmo on the market right now."

So why are you here? Why not another game? I'm seriously asking you this question, if every other game has what you desire, why wish and hope for this one to be that as well?


I have wondered the same general thing myself, actually. Why does FFXIV need to have lots of solo content (in a massively multiplayer genre)? Why does FFXIV need to have lots of casual content? "Because it makes more money; it gets more players," I often hear. But why does it need those? "To be financially successful," but we should know by now that FFXIV is not going to tap WoW's audience in any meaningful way.

As you have pointed out, there are plenty of MMOs (like, just about all of them) that already do many of the things that some say must be done in FFXIV. Why, then, does yet another MMORPG need to provide content for the same demographic that everyone is vying to obtain? Niche can work; it can work pretty well. Atlus games are often niche; Dragon Quest is niche, though actually quite popular; FFXI was a hardcore MMO that, although it has become rather easier recently, operated successfully for years and years to a specific, moderately sized audience.

I know many may like the experience other MMOs offer, and so you want more of that in yet another one; yet at the same time, it should be acknowledged that there are an almsot unlimited array of solo-oriented, casual-friendly MMOs already - and significantly fewer that do anything else.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#78 Jul 28 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Do we need another? I mean I'm not locked in to FFXIV. If they take it the solo route, I can easily stop playing and go play a different MMO, not a problem. So why is this such an issue? Why do you play FFXIV or if you don't and just lurk (which is what I highly suspect) then why are you interested in it at all?


I have wondered the same general thing myself, actually. Why does FFXIV need to have lots of solo content (in a massively multiplayer genre)? Why does FFXIV need to have lots of casual content? "Because it makes more money; it gets more players," I often hear. But why does it need those? "To be financially successful," but we should know by now that FFXIV is not going to tap WoW's audience in any meaningful way.

To the first two questions, they have pretty common sense answers. Variety. It doesn't need to have lots of solo content, but it does need to be somewhat balanced. People like to solo and people like to group. People like to do easy quests and people like to challenge difficult instances. My question is, why do people limit SE to only being able to satisfy one of these types of players? It is completely possible and evident in many other games that both styles of play not only exist, but compliment each other. The only hurdle in the way is how the game is developed. Don't hate the players, hate the game.

Being successful financially is a byproduct of having a game people enjoy enough that they will subscribe to it. The size of the playerbase also has an effect on the 'quality of life' aspect of the game. It's pointless to have a group-centric game when you barely have enough players to stand a server up. It is hard to find the people you need to complete group content, it is hard to sell your crafted items when there is no demand and it generally sucks to feel like you're alone. Niche is fine, but you still need enough support to make it work and that isn't the case in XIV.

KaneKitty wrote:
FFXI was a hardcore MMO

I disagree. FFXI was only dificult in that you were forced into grouping, spent long times camping for items with a horrible drop rate and the first expansion the added with a reasonable progression to it failed miserably.

KaneKitty wrote:
I know many may like the experience other MMOs offer, and so you want more of that in yet another one; yet at the same time, it should be acknowledged that there are an almsot unlimited array of solo-oriented, casual-friendly MMOs already - and significantly fewer that do anything else.

My personal issues with XIV regarding how it stacks up against other games is less about the 'solo vs party' or 'casual vs hardcore' and more about quality of life. Things like a crappy targeting system, sloppy UI and poor battle/class system are what turn me away.

Are any of the solo-centric games you are referring to popular games? I have only played a few of the more popular games(Aion, Rift and WoW) and for the most part, you can't complete the bulk of content alone in those games.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 10:14pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#79 Jul 28 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
KaneKitty wrote:

I have wondered the same general thing myself, actually. Why does FFXIV need to have lots of solo content (in a massively multiplayer genre)? Why does FFXIV need to have lots of casual content? "Because it makes more money; it gets more players," I often hear. But why does it need those? "To be financially successful," but we should know by now that FFXIV is not going to tap WoW's audience in any meaningful way.

As you have pointed out, there are plenty of MMOs (like, just about all of them) that already do many of the things that some say must be done in FFXIV. Why, then, does yet another MMORPG need to provide content for the same demographic that everyone is vying to obtain? Niche can work; it can work pretty well. Atlus games are often niche; Dragon Quest is niche, though actually quite popular; FFXI was a hardcore MMO that, although it has become rather easier recently, operated successfully for years and years to a specific, moderately sized audience.

I know many may like the experience other MMOs offer, and so you want more of that in yet another one; yet at the same time, it should be acknowledged that there are an almsot unlimited array of solo-oriented, casual-friendly MMOs already - and significantly fewer that do anything else.


Well, you can stop wondering "why" because I'm going to tell you.

MMOs are already niche. They're a small sliver in the overall video game pie. There are 14 titles in the mainstream FF franchise (with offshoots like Tactics, etc.), and of those, only 2 are MMOs. Both of those MMOs have sold far fewer units than any of the standalone titles.

Niche.

JRPGs, offline or online, are niche. When XIV was first announced and I was talking to other people about it, a lot of them responded with a barbed comment about JRPGs. The gameplay and concepts are quirky. The storylines are over the heads of a lot of western gamers.

Niche.

So now you want to see the potential market further dwindled to have a group centric MMO in a genre that doesn't need one. All you need to satisfy your group itch is a game with enough group content to keep you occupied. If you've got that, it doesn't matter if 99% of the game is solo oriented as long as you've got stuff to do in groups. You don't need to eat the whole buffet...you just need to be able to find enough of what you like to fill your belly.

"Me and my friends want fried chicken and fries!"
"There's lots over there..."
"Ya, but look at all the salad and roast beef and mashed potatoes!"
"So what? There's enough of what you and your friends want over there..."
"WHY CAN'T THEY JUST SERVE FRIED CHICKEN AND FRIES!?!?!"

Get the point?

AAA game studios don't volunteer to restrict their market. They can't afford it. They know that their general concept and genre will already do that. They don't need to further reduce their potential customer base with design choices that are not only needless, but don't create any substantial benefit.

You don't have to like it. You don't even have to accept it. But what you can't do is say, "I don't understand why..."

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 7:21pm by Aurelius
#80 Jul 28 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
Do we need another? I mean I'm not locked in to FFXIV. If they take it the solo route, I can easily stop playing and go play a different MMO, not a problem. So why is this such an issue? Why do you play FFXIV or if you don't and just lurk (which is what I highly suspect) then why are you interested in it at all?

All i got from your posts is "I don't want this Final Fantasy game to be like that other one, I want it to be like every other mmo on the market right now."

So why are you here? Why not another game? I'm seriously asking you this question, if every other game has what you desire, why wish and hope for this one to be that as well?


I have wondered the same general thing myself, actually. Why does FFXIV need to have lots of solo content (in a massively multiplayer genre)? Why does FFXIV need to have lots of casual content? "Because it makes more money; it gets more players," I often hear. But why does it need those? "To be financially successful," but we should know by now that FFXIV is not going to tap WoW's audience in any meaningful way.

As you have pointed out, there are plenty of MMOs (like, just about all of them) that already do many of the things that some say must be done in FFXIV. Why, then, does yet another MMORPG need to provide content for the same demographic that everyone is vying to obtain? Niche can work; it can work pretty well. Atlus games are often niche; Dragon Quest is niche, though actually quite popular; FFXI was a hardcore MMO that, although it has become rather easier recently, operated successfully for years and years to a specific, moderately sized audience.

I know many may like the experience other MMOs offer, and so you want more of that in yet another one; yet at the same time, it should be acknowledged that there are an almsot unlimited array of solo-oriented, casual-friendly MMOs already - and significantly fewer that do anything else.


Should be asked of SE, they themselves said this game would be catered to "Casuals" that it would be a different direction from FFXI! So why do you people feel entitled to drag it back to being FFXI-2 ? I mean the creators said themselves: "THIS WIL NOT BE FFXI-2 KAY?" and all we hear is "WHY IS THIS NO FFXI-2!!!" Also there is already FFXI, want to be hardcore ? go back to FFXI, wanna be real hardcore? go back to EQ1.

But more importantly the answer is in the pudding, why does it needs to cater to casuals? Because if nobody has noticed, right now the game is free, and even being free and updated, dare we say it has even close to 100k users?
____________________________
MUTED
#81 Jul 28 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Ostia wrote:
Should be asked of SE, they themselves said this game would be catered to "Casuals" that it would be a different direction from FFXI! So why do you people feel entitled to drag it back to being FFXI-2 ? I mean the creators said themselves: "THIS WIL NOT BE FFXI-2 KAY?" and all we hear is "WHY IS THIS NO FFXI-2!!!" Also there is already FFXI, want to be hardcore ? go back to FFXI, wanna be real hardcore? go back to EQ1.

But more importantly the answer is in the pudding, why does it needs to cater to casuals? Because if nobody has noticed, right now the game is free, and even being free and updated, dare we say it has even close to 100k users?
They probably should've marketed it to more than just FFXI players then, huh?
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#82 Jul 28 2011 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Should be asked of SE, they themselves said this game would be catered to "Casuals" that it would be a different direction from FFXI! So why do you people feel entitled to drag it back to being FFXI-2 ? I mean the creators said themselves: "THIS WIL NOT BE FFXI-2 KAY?" and all we hear is "WHY IS THIS NO FFXI-2!!!" Also there is already FFXI, want to be hardcore ? go back to FFXI, wanna be real hardcore? go back to EQ1.

But more importantly the answer is in the pudding, why does it needs to cater to casuals? Because if nobody has noticed, right now the game is free, and even being free and updated, dare we say it has even close to 100k users?
They probably should've marketed it to more than just FFXI players then, huh?


They did. They marketed it to the entire SE fanbase. They marketed it at game conventions, not just Vanafest. They did interviews with gaming sites that covered all manner of games, not just FFXI. Only FFXI players still stuck in their niche bubble would think FFXIV was marketed exclusively to them and made exclusively for them.
#83 Jul 28 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
bsphil wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Should be asked of SE, they themselves said this game would be catered to "Casuals" that it would be a different direction from FFXI! So why do you people feel entitled to drag it back to being FFXI-2 ? I mean the creators said themselves: "THIS WIL NOT BE FFXI-2 KAY?" and all we hear is "WHY IS THIS NO FFXI-2!!!" Also there is already FFXI, want to be hardcore ? go back to FFXI, wanna be real hardcore? go back to EQ1.

But more importantly the answer is in the pudding, why does it needs to cater to casuals? Because if nobody has noticed, right now the game is free, and even being free and updated, dare we say it has even close to 100k users?
They probably should've marketed it to more than just FFXI players then, huh?


Because the game was only marketed to the FFXI Crowd right ? Lmao!
____________________________
MUTED
#84 Jul 28 2011 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
852 posts
This is my only contribution to the question of marketing.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/09/13/pax-coverage-final-fantasy-xiv-guild-wars-2/
____________________________
#85 Jul 28 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
***
1,566 posts
hexaemeron wrote:
This is my only contribution to the question of marketing.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/09/13/pax-coverage-final-fantasy-xiv-guild-wars-2/


Wow. I know that press clip at the end was just that, PR hype. But everything they said Guild Wars 2 is intended to be is everything I've been saying I want XIV to be.

The garrison defense system sounds awesome.

NCSoft needs to prove everything they said, but still ... SE should take notes.
#86 Jul 29 2011 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
This topic has kinda pushed me into this stance where I'm spending all of my posts defending group content when the reality is I also want both to be viable.

In FFXI, I'm frequently defending the players who leeched their job to 90 because it doesn't effect my enjoyment if they took an easier route. And that's the truth, as long as someone soloing doesn't diminish what I want from a game, it shouldn't matter.

I think my original point was just that I would like to see a reason to tackle tougher monsters, longer fights. Even FFXI wasn't able to provide that and it always came down to tp burn and kill as fast as possible, pull as fast as possible.

The reason I'm holding out for 14, and I'm sure this is true for others, is that I enjoy the lore and the storytelling SE often delivers. The missions may be easy as heck but the cutscenes for every quest really draw you in.

I would be happy to see leveling become more solo friendly (and I believe it still is with the leves, I just got 40k sp last night for 6 rank 30 leves) while still providing a reason to group and satisfying both crowds, which I believe is possible to do.

____________________________


#87 Jul 29 2011 at 7:35 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Aurelius wrote:
[quote=bsphil]
They did. They marketed it to the entire SE fanbase. They marketed it at game conventions, not just Vanafest. They did interviews with gaming sites that covered all manner of games, not just FFXI. Only FFXI players still stuck in their niche bubble would think FFXIV was marketed exclusively to them and made exclusively for them.


They also copied the terrain, cities, look\feel, linkshells, and jobs from FFXI almost cut and paste. Of course everything is named differently (except linkshells), but I get a distinct "this feels like Konschadt Highlands" feeling in places, and "gosh this reminds me of Basty" in others. Don't get me started on the races, which were copied right down to the missing genders.

It was marketed to the FFXI fanbase heavily, because they were hoping to move into the next decade of sales and let FFXI disappear. They may have advertised to all groups in all different places, but it was marketed towards the current fans of their main mmo. They said as much, in an interview when asked about the races - they wanted FFXI people to feel comfortable in the transition. We were given a name migration service (that barely anyone used anyway).

So maybe former XI people feel a little special. If we do, it's because they did make us a bit of a focus.

I'm interested to know how many people with the rank 50's running around here actually came from other mmos and weren't FFXI players. Where is Mik with his polls? lol
#88 Jul 29 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
I'm one, so? About 1/3 of my LS who reached r50 also didn't play FFXI either.
____________________________




#89 Jul 29 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
Khornette wrote:
I'm one, so? About 1/3 of my LS who reached r50 also didn't play FFXI either.


Well now at least I understand our discussion over in the feedback forum. If you never played XI, you don't know how easily implemented and intuitive an auto attack feature can be.

What brought you to XIV, if I might ask?
#90 Jul 29 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Because they promised it to be different from FFXI, but still an FF MMO. I dislike FFXI from what I heard, and most of the vocal FFXI players here in this forum made me dislike it even more.
____________________________




#91 Jul 29 2011 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Khornette wrote:
Because they promised it to be different from FFXI, but still an FF MMO. I dislike FFXI from what I heard, and most of the vocal FFXI players here in this forum made me dislike it even more.


Well, I'd caution against word of mouth. You never know what kind of quality the information is. FFXI wasn't a bad game, it was just a little too centered on the group which was ok for its time. In fact, it was probably ahead of its time in a lot of ways.

There's more good than bad in it, and it's a shame that this game was made so similar in some ways and completely different in the ways it should have been similar. Still, something about it has kept you around for two rank 50's and an assortment of other levels. It's not that I don't respect your opinion, it's just that I have to question whether you are looking at things objectively when I read comments like "I dislike FFXI from what I heard".

You should have given it a shot to check it out and formed your own opinion. Still, this forum is about XIV and I'm certainly not trying to recruit back into XI. Just remember that just as you disliked FFXI from what you heard, so to do millions of others dislike FFXIV from what they have heard.

Is it really fair?

#92 Jul 29 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Fair? No. Is life fair? No. Do I really care about it? No. I enjoy what I enjoy, I dislike what I dislike, I make my own judgement, whether be it hearing about or experiencing it about.

And with the claim of "Ahead of its time" I find this somewhat interesting

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/305889/page/1

FFXI name is mentioned once. Just once. Indeed.

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 10:32am by Khornette
____________________________




#93 Jul 29 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Khornette wrote:
Fair? No. Is life fair? No. Do I really care about it? No. I enjoy what I enjoy, I dislike what I dislike, I make my own judgement, whether be it hearing about or experiencing it about.

And with the claim of "Ahead of its time" I find this somewhat interesting

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/305889/page/1

FFXI name is mentioned once. Just once. Indeed.

Edited, Jul 29th 2011 10:32am by Khornette


I'd argue that in your list, FFXI is left out of a lot of items it belongs in - maybe not as firsts - but definitely left out of things like Player Housing and Player Controller Shops (Bazaars). That list seems a little biased, and the only one that is listed as a first is ironically FFXI's major selling point and what it's most known for: one character all jobs.

So, I take that with a grain of salt. I said it was ahead of its time. I didn't say that it was the first to do everything in the mmo universe.

I'll be really honest with you - you sound a bit pouty and more than a little defensive. I'll stop the conversation here, because I learned long ago there are some people you can reach and some people you can't.
#94 Jul 29 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Torrence wrote:
They also copied the terrain, cities, look\feel, linkshells, and jobs from FFXI almost cut and paste. Of course everything is named differently (except linkshells), but I get a distinct "this feels like Konschadt Highlands" feeling in places, and "gosh this reminds me of Basty" in others. Don't get me started on the races, which were copied right down to the missing genders.

It was marketed to the FFXI fanbase heavily, because they were hoping to move into the next decade of sales and let FFXI disappear. They may have advertised to all groups in all different places, but it was marketed towards the current fans of their main mmo. They said as much, in an interview when asked about the races - they wanted FFXI people to feel comfortable in the transition. We were given a name migration service (that barely anyone used anyway).

So maybe former XI people feel a little special. If we do, it's because they did make us a bit of a focus.

I'm interested to know how many people with the rank 50's running around here actually came from other mmos and weren't FFXI players. Where is Mik with his polls? lol


Making a clear effort to offer a game that was familiar to FFXI players to ease their transition from a dated game to a new one is not the same as marketing exclusively to FFXI players. That's the point. Nobody can say it was only marketed to FFXI players. Nobody can say it was primarily for FFXI players. Wada certainly wanted a bigger piece of the pie than what FFXI ever brought to SE. The trouble is, the game they came up with didn't really appeal to anyone. The only people still clinging to the game are mostly the hardcore fans of the franchise who would plug their controller into a pile of dog poo and try to play it if it had an FF label.
#95 Jul 29 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Torrence wrote:
They also copied the terrain, cities, look\feel, linkshells, and jobs from FFXI almost cut and paste. Of course everything is named differently (except linkshells), but I get a distinct "this feels like Konschadt Highlands" feeling in places, and "gosh this reminds me of Basty" in others. Don't get me started on the races, which were copied right down to the missing genders.

It was marketed to the FFXI fanbase heavily, because they were hoping to move into the next decade of sales and let FFXI disappear. They may have advertised to all groups in all different places, but it was marketed towards the current fans of their main mmo. They said as much, in an interview when asked about the races - they wanted FFXI people to feel comfortable in the transition. We were given a name migration service (that barely anyone used anyway).

So maybe former XI people feel a little special. If we do, it's because they did make us a bit of a focus.

I'm interested to know how many people with the rank 50's running around here actually came from other mmos and weren't FFXI players. Where is Mik with his polls? lol


Making a clear effort to offer a game that was familiar to FFXI players to ease their transition from a dated game to a new one is not the same as marketing exclusively to FFXI players. That's the point. Nobody can say it was only marketed to FFXI players. Nobody can say it was primarily for FFXI players. Wada certainly wanted a bigger piece of the pie than what FFXI ever brought to SE. The trouble is, the game they came up with didn't really appeal to anyone. The only people still clinging to the game are mostly the hardcore fans of the franchise who would plug their controller into a pile of dog poo and try to play it if it had an FF label.


True, so true.

Anyone playing the game also sneaks into their bathroom at night with a kitchen knife and makes cuts on their arm "just to feel something real." We are all masochists who like terrible games. **** I have a platinum trophy in Barbies Horse Adventure and Hanna Montana.

How many times have you made just terrible blanket statements? I'm going to say 100% of the time, in a true attempt at being ironic here and making a blanket statement.

Believe it or not, some people, and I know this is going to be shocking for you, but some people played WoW and didn't enjoy it. Some people play a game and have a different preference and opinion than you, and this doesn't make them wrong.

In my eyes, WoW is technically a better made game, obviously. But it's not more enjoyable than this "steaming pile" that we have here in FFXIV. I've played EVE, WoW, Rift, Aion, SWG, Champions Online, DCU, PSO, and Maple Story.

Call me ****ing crazy but I didn't enjoy any them for very long. They didn't hold my interest, except for PSO but that's because it was the only MMO on a console and it was on Dreamcast in a time when console gaming online was so fresh and new. WoW I played until 50ish and got so bored (mostly because that took like 1 month of very casual play WHILE still playing FFXI).

Your comments are the equivalent of picking on a mentally handicapped child. Yes, we know, the boy needs help but I love him anyway because he's such a sweet boy, he's just a little slow.
____________________________


#96 Jul 29 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Louiscool wrote:

True, so true.

Anyone playing the game also sneaks into their bathroom at night with a kitchen knife and makes cuts on their arm "just to feel something real." We are all masochists who like terrible games. **** I have a platinum trophy in Barbies Horse Adventure and Hanna Montana.

How many times have you made just terrible blanket statements? I'm going to say 100% of the time, in a true attempt at being ironic here and making a blanket statement.

Believe it or not, some people, and I know this is going to be shocking for you, but some people played WoW and didn't enjoy it. Some people play a game and have a different preference and opinion than you, and this doesn't make them wrong.

In my eyes, WoW is technically a better made game, obviously. But it's not more enjoyable than this "steaming pile" that we have here in FFXIV. I've played EVE, WoW, Rift, Aion, SWG, Champions Online, DCU, PSO, and Maple Story.

Call me ****ing crazy but I didn't enjoy any them for very long. They didn't hold my interest, except for PSO but that's because it was the only MMO on a console and it was on Dreamcast in a time when console gaming online was so fresh and new. WoW I played until 50ish and got so bored (mostly because that took like 1 month of very casual play WHILE still playing FFXI).

Your comments are the equivalent of picking on a mentally handicapped child. Yes, we know, the boy needs help but I love him anyway because he's such a sweet boy, he's just a little slow.


Interesting that you can turn what I said into a shot at WoW. Almost equally interesting is that you could type out four-ish paragraphs without mentioning a single redeeming component of FFXIV yet you still seem to be defending it. You don't seem able to form a cogent reference to what you actually like about the game. Nobody can. The best they ever seem to muster is that "it's Final Fantasy" or "it's not WoW". Hence...a pile of doggy doodoo with a Final Fantasy label is not WoW, and carries the FF label, therefore it has about as much compelling reason to plug in a controller and play as FFXIV.

I don't care what you like or why. That's your deal. Just don't pretend like empty arguments and blind faith afford you a compelling argument, because they don't. There's nothing about FFXIV right now that would make it a financially viable MMO and it's many months from being able to say anything different. And if we were to talk about credibility, anyone who says the game is good enough now to warrant the risk of alienating a huge segment of its potential playerbase with braindead design choices has none. No credibility whatsoever. I don't care if you agree or disagree. It's not as subjective as you seem to want to think.

YoshiP has an opportunity to turn the game into something that will bring people back, or he can cater to the whims of people who lack the good sense to see the game for what it is. If he thinks that making the puny existing playerbase happy is all it's going to take to save the game, he might as well just request a transfer to a different project now and save himself the ulcer.
#97 Jul 29 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Torrence wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
[quote=bsphil]
They did. They marketed it to the entire SE fanbase. They marketed it at game conventions, not just Vanafest. They did interviews with gaming sites that covered all manner of games, not just FFXI. Only FFXI players still stuck in their niche bubble would think FFXIV was marketed exclusively to them and made exclusively for them.


They also copied the terrain, cities, look\feel, linkshells, and jobs from FFXI almost cut and paste. Of course everything is named differently (except linkshells), but I get a distinct "this feels like Konschadt Highlands" feeling in places, and "gosh this reminds me of Basty" in others. Don't get me started on the races, which were copied right down to the missing genders.

It was marketed to the FFXI fanbase heavily, because they were hoping to move into the next decade of sales and let FFXI disappear. They may have advertised to all groups in all different places, but it was marketed towards the current fans of their main mmo. They said as much, in an interview when asked about the races - they wanted FFXI people to feel comfortable in the transition. We were given a name migration service (that barely anyone used anyway).

So maybe former XI people feel a little special. If we do, it's because they did make us a bit of a focus.

I'm interested to know how many people with the rank 50's running around here actually came from other mmos and weren't FFXI players. Where is Mik with his polls? lol


I could agree, to most of your points, but that does not mean, that this game is Focused on FFXI players, first, and everybody else comes second, i mean FFXI at it peak had 500k players, and FFXIV has less than 50k players while being free, seems to me the FFXI crowd is not behind this game, so why bother catering to them....
____________________________
MUTED
#98 Jul 29 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
279 posts
"I don't care what you like or why."

no offense aurellius but it definably sounds like you do if you took your time to reply to each and every one of self criticism from everyone on the site. This comment alone made anything coming out of your mouth just a pile of ****, how can you go to forums where people go to post their ideas and views and say something like that lol. "its my wway or the highway mentality won't get you far"

Anyways back to post i agree with the guy that was talking about WoW, and no I am not trying to bash it either but i felt the same way about mmorpg's since i started playing PSO back on dreamcast also, a lot of the mmorpg's today all have the same exact things; specially the talk to npc wit icon on top of head and rinse and repeat quests. This and many other reasons where why I never got into WoW, and you saying that the hardcore crowd is minimal you are wrong again. FF11 has stayed afloat for a long time as well as in other mmorpg's who are hardcore, not everyone likes "easy mode gameplay" heck to even point to WoW again which i hate but you seem to be stuck with and epitomize it used to be a hardcore mmorpg when it was released also.

P.S- this threat has gone way out of the OP thought, FF14 has gone far and I have a lot of respect for yoshi and new SE team for taking a pile of **** and trying to make gold out of it. People whine too much, I mean ff14 is still free to play anyways this is the way i see it still within a couple of months of free gameplay will warrant your full purchase. I like the way its heading and I am actually hoping instead of making hybrid casual and hardcore they just stick to one and go all out on it.
____________________________
I Am Alpha And Omega
The Beginning And The End
The First And The Last
--------------------------
DRG/WAR-http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
SMN/WHM- http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?57308
#99 Jul 29 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Almost equally interesting is that you could type out four-ish paragraphs without mentioning a single redeeming component of FFXIV yet you still seem to be defending it. You don't seem able to form a cogent reference to what you actually like about the game. Nobody can. The best they ever seem to muster is that "it's Final Fantasy" or "it's not WoW". Hence...a pile of doggy doodoo with a Final Fantasy label is not WoW, and carries the FF label, therefore it has about as much compelling reason to plug in a controller and play as FFXIV.


Even though you don't care what I like, I'll tell you:

-Graphics: This is obvious, no one denies that aside from cut and paste designs (which I don't even mind, every mo has them) that FFXIV is one of the best looking mmos around.

-Armory System: I love being able to pick and choose what abilities I want to use and create my own hybrid classes. It really gives an originality to the character classes and makes them feel like your own.

-Combat: I currently love the combat system as an archer. It's the most fun I've had since Puppetmaster in FFXI because it requires skill to be good at with nocking arrows and stacking abilities.

-Storyline: I'm very interested in this aspect. The world and lore that is currently in place sets up what I hope to be a great story with the empire. There's a lot of unanswered questions and I look forward to more of it. Job storylines are intriguing as well.

-Cutscenes: They're gorgeous, and very well done. Do other mmos even have cutscenes besides FFXI?

-Crafting System: I don't think anyone would argue with the crafting system being one of the best elements of 14.

-Fishing: I love the fishing mini-game. It's so much more entertaining than FFXI or WoWs fishing.

In the end, the game is very playable in its current state, to me. I'm not trying to sell other people and have even told my friends that they might want to wait before starting up for the first time because it's still in transition but to call the game "dog doody" is A) real mature and B) terribly wrong.

But hey, as you've already admitted Aurelius, you haven't played the game since release so I'm sure you have a very trustworthy opinion on it.
____________________________


#100 Jul 29 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Louiscool wrote:

-Graphics: This is obvious, no one denies that aside from cut and paste designs (which I don't even mind, every mo has them) that FFXIV is one of the best looking mmos around.


It is beautiful, yes. It also requires some hefty specs, alienating it from a large portion of the population who are just fine playing other games like WoW and Rift on mid-level PCs. It's a decision SE made that backfired a bit on them.

Louiscool wrote:

-Armory System: I love being able to pick and choose what abilities I want to use and create my own hybrid classes. It really gives an originality to the character classes and makes them feel like your own.


Maybe it does, but it also created a new set of headaches, such as the one we are seeing with stat allocation changing and the OPness of classes being able to solo monsters 10+ ranks above their level because of access to balance-breaking abilities. It's fun in theory, but in practice it's actually a pretty broken mechanic. Don't get me started on the fact that my Maurauder can't use all the weapons my Warrior could in XI. That's a whole different discussion. I'm glad you enjoy it, but it is a little flawed in execution.

Louiscool wrote:

-Combat: I currently love the combat system as an archer. It's the most fun I've had since Puppetmaster in FFXI because it requires skill to be good at with nocking arrows and stacking abilities.


Haven't tried as an archer, but I will say that they are moving in the right direction now in terms of battle. The new director actually has a clue.

Louiscool wrote:

-Storyline: I'm very interested in this aspect. The world and lore that is currently in place sets up what I hope to be a great story with the empire. There's a lot of unanswered questions and I look forward to more of it. Job storylines are intriguing as well.

-Cutscenes: They're gorgeous, and very well done. Do other mmos even have cutscenes besides FFXI?


Yes, other MMOs have cutscenes. They are starting to trend more towards it, I have noticed. Almost all of Cataclysm plays more like a movie than the previous expansions - especially the "Indiana Jones" themed zone.

SE's better ideas do have this habit of getting "Copied" in other games.

Louiscool wrote:

-Crafting System: I don't think anyone would argue with the crafting system being one of the best elements of 14.


Not to sound like a jerk, but you really think that this crafting system XIV's crowning achievement, and that no one would disagree? Really?

Louiscool wrote:

-Fishing: I love the fishing mini-game. It's so much more entertaining than FFXI or WoWs fishing.


Fishing is probably the only place that the "mini-game" of crafting in its longhand form should have made it into. I'll agree with this.

Louiscool wrote:

In the end,the game is very playable in its current state, to me. I'm not trying to sell other people and have even told my friends that they might want to wait before starting up for the first time because it's still in transition but to call the game "dog doody" is A) real mature and B) terribly wrong.


And in the end, what you think about it is all that matters to you. It's good that you enjoy it. I still don't think you are being entirely objective in your assessment and are instead focusing on the standard "Graphics and Cutscenes make the game" regurgitation that has plagued this forum since release, but neither I nor Aurelius will change you mind no matter how many times we slap you in the face with logic.

Louiscool wrote:

But hey, as you've already admitted Aurelius, you haven't played the game since release so I'm sure you have a very trustworthy opinion on it.


He hasn't, but I have. And the game still has a long way to go before it can compete with the caliber of MMO we are seeing today.
#101 Jul 29 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
I could make just as many bullet points on things in game that make me put my head in my hands and weep. There's a reason I talk friends out of playing it in it's current state. But "things wrong with FFXIV" is a topic so redundant that it feels cliche to even mention it.

I'm having fun with the game in small doses. I was just responding to Aurelius' comment about my failure to talk about things I like in 14.

I would like to address one thing: I'm not so sure the "fighting mobs 10+ ranks above" is so much a broken aspect of the game. I currently solo on 42-43 mobs as 33 archer. They provide decent sp/hr (like 250-300 a kill) and I have to rest a bit in between.

Weren't some people just whining because they wanted solo to be viable? But then making it viable is a broken game mechanic that should be abolished?
____________________________


This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 23 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (23)