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Separation Anxiety: XIV and the eventual alienationFollow

#102 Jul 29 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
that does not mean, that this game is Focused on FFXI players, first, and everybody else comes second, i mean FFXI at it peak had 500k players, and FFXIV has less than 50k players while being free, seems to me the FFXI crowd is not behind this game, so why bother catering to them....


So SE should not be targeting an audience similar to FFXI's because so few people from FFXI play FFXIV (in its broken state)? By that logic, no crowd is "behind" this game - as you point out, it "has less than 50k players while being free" - and so SE should cater to no audience whatsoever.

The fact of the matter is that the easiest audience for SE to address is the FFXI market first and the general Final Fantasy market second. The survey taken around release day by Eorzeapedia, which tallied the significant sample size of over 4000 players, found that a majority of new FFXIV players considered themselves "long time FFXI players" at some point.
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#103 Jul 29 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
So SE should not be targeting an audience similar to FFXI's because so few people from FFXI play FFXIV (in its broken state)? By that logic, no crowd is "behind" this game - as you point out, it "has less than 50k players while being free" - and so SE should cater to no audience whatsoever.

The fact of the matter is that the easiest audience for SE to address is the FFXI market first and the general Final Fantasy market second. The survey taken around release day by Eorzeapedia, which tallied the significant sample size of over 4000 players, found that a majority of new FFXIV players considered themselves "long time FFXI players" at some point.


Well. You're wrong on two counts.

The audience that SE has in abundance is not the FFXI crowd, it's the Final Fantasy crowd in general. FFXIII sold millions of copies. FFXI, not so much. If they want to appeal to their fanbase, you're missing the forest for the trees if you think it comes from FFXI.

Secondly, and as is oft repeated, history has shown MMO sequels don't work. Asheron's Call 2 scored very high when it came out (IGN gave it a 90 out of 100) and it still bombed. FFXIV is a peachy 49 out of 100 on Metacritic, already teetering on oblivion to begin with. They just can't afford to make a FFXI-2, especially when FFXI is still alive and kicking. You won't be able to pull enough of FFXI's small audience away to pay a sub for FFXIV and keep it alive.
#104 Jul 29 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

In the end, the game is very playable in its current state, to me. I'm not trying to sell other people and have even told my friends that they might want to wait before starting up for the first time because it's still in transition but to call the game "dog doody" is A) real mature and B) terribly wrong.

But hey, as you've already admitted Aurelius, you haven't played the game since release so I'm sure you have a very trustworthy opinion on it.


The game is garbage. Unlike you, I don't need subjective references to bits and pieces I can tolerate to back up my point of view. I can just point to objective numbers including (but not limited to) a game that has < 30k active players and a game that has yet to generate a single dollar of subscription revenue despite having gone live almost 10 months ago.

So while YoshiP is heading up the team that is hopefully going to salvage FFXIV from the proverbial landfill, along the way one might hope that they take a close look at current trends in the market and ask themselves if it would be wise to make the conscious choice to alienate a huge percentage of their potential market for a game that already has to overcome an enormous stigma in order to become financially viable. And that segment of players are the ones who don't necessarily want to be in a group all the time and/or feel that their solo adventures are just that watered down meta-game that the devs threw their way to make them feel like the time they invest isn't a total waste.

Them's the facts. That's why I don't particularly care what you do or do not like because YoshiP isn't revamping the game just for you. He's not revamping it just for the relatively trivial sum of people who still have the stomach to log in from time to time. He's trying to take a product that represents SE's greatest failure as a game developer and transform it into something that serves the purposes of the company, which is to make money. Period. Whether you come to terms with that makes no difference to me. YoshiP will do it right or he'll do it your way and the outcome will speak for itself.
#105 Jul 29 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

In the end, the game is very playable in its current state, to me. I'm not trying to sell other people and have even told my friends that they might want to wait before starting up for the first time because it's still in transition but to call the game "dog doody" is A) real mature and B) terribly wrong.

But hey, as you've already admitted Aurelius, you haven't played the game since release so I'm sure you have a very trustworthy opinion on it.


The game is garbage. Unlike you, I don't need subjective references to bits and pieces I can tolerate to back up my point of view. I can just point to objective numbers including (but not limited to) a game that has < 30k active players and a game that has yet to generate a single dollar of subscription revenue despite having gone live almost 10 months ago.

So while YoshiP is heading up the team that is hopefully going to salvage FFXIV from the proverbial landfill, along the way one might hope that they take a close look at current trends in the market and ask themselves if it would be wise to make the conscious choice to alienate a huge percentage of their potential market for a game that already has to overcome an enormous stigma in order to become financially viable. And that segment of players are the ones who don't necessarily want to be in a group all the time and/or feel that their solo adventures are just that watered down meta-game that the devs threw their way to make them feel like the time they invest isn't a total waste.

Them's the facts. That's why I don't particularly care what you do or do not like because YoshiP isn't revamping the game just for you. He's not revamping it just for the relatively trivial sum of people who still have the stomach to log in from time to time. He's trying to take a product that represents SE's greatest failure as a game developer and transform it into something that serves the purposes of the company, which is to make money. Period. Whether you come to terms with that makes no difference to me. YoshiP will do it right or he'll do it your way and the outcome will speak for itself.


What is my way, exactly? I don't think reading comprehension is in your skill set because I've said over and over that I want both to be viable. I'm done hijacking this thread just to tell you, for the hundredth time, that your bullheaded forum antics are tiresome. Why even use a forum when it seems all you really need is a blog to write down your feelings in.
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#106 Jul 29 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Aur,

Yeah, tbh, at the end of the day, it's all about dollar and cents. They are going to go a route that will get the most bang for the buck :/. It's sad but the truth in a way :/. However, that is just business. As fans we can either leave it or accept it. Not trying to sound rude when I say this but, to think a company cares about it's client just because maybe kinda foolish, there is a motive behind why they care... And it's for money.
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#107 Jul 29 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
Aur,

Yeah, tbh, at the end of the day, it's all about dollar and cents. They are going to go a route that will get the most bang for the buck :/. It's sad but the truth in a way :/. However, that is just business. As fans we can either leave it or accept it. Not trying to sound rude when I say this but, to think a company cares about it's client just because maybe kinda foolish, there is a motive behind why they care... And it's for money.


I don't think it's rude to acknowledge the reality. Each individual on the development team for FFXIV from YoshiP right on down to the interns could very well want to make a great game that people will enjoy so that they can take pride in what they've created. Unfortunately, a large corporate entity is paying those people to create something with revenue potential. As you say, that's just business. It's one thing for a small business (ie. an indy development studio) running on sweat equity and common business loans to target a niche market. It's another thing for a large corporate entity comprised of funding from shareholders to voluntarily shrink their market to satisfy quirky ideas and demands.
#108 Jul 29 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Weren't some people just whining because they wanted solo to be viable? But then making it viable is a broken game mechanic that should be abolished?


Solo should be viable, but soloing monsters well above your level is very broken, and there isn't another game on the market that allows you to do it. It doesn't make FFXIV innovative, it just shows that the developers have a long way to go in order to bring back the balance.

Raising XP for EP\DC mobs makes more sense than letting your level 33 character solo monsters that in any other game would eat you. It bloats the numbers because if you are soloing mobs 10 ranks above, then they definitely aren't strong enough for a party to fight against and they have to look for mobs even higher level than that to function as the party should. What will happen when we are fighting level 99 mobs in a game capped at 50 because the parties that you are so keen to force can't find strong enough prey? What happens when they release Ps3 and whoops, Ps3 limitations because we didn't realize that runaway numbers would ever come back to bite us?

No, it's broken and I'm sure that this is one area they are going to tighten up.

You were so vocal about encouraging party play, yet who would bother with a party when they can solo IT++?

#109 Jul 30 2011 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
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Weren't some people just whining because they wanted solo to be viable? But then making it viable is a broken game mechanic that should be abolished?


Solo should be viable, but soloing monsters well above your level is very broken, and there isn't another game on the market that allows you to do it. It doesn't make FFXIV innovative, it just shows that the developers have a long way to go in order to bring back the balance.

Raising XP for EP\DC mobs makes more sense than letting your level 33 character solo monsters that in any other game would eat you. It bloats the numbers because if you are soloing mobs 10 ranks above, then they definitely aren't strong enough for a party to fight against and they have to look for mobs even higher level than that to function as the party should. What will happen when we are fighting level 99 mobs in a game capped at 50 because the parties that you are so keen to force can't find strong enough prey? What happens when they release Ps3 and whoops, Ps3 limitations because we didn't realize that runaway numbers would ever come back to bite us?

No, it's broken and I'm sure that this is one area they are going to tighten up.

You were so vocal about encouraging party play, yet who would bother with a party when they can solo IT++?



I thought I made myself pretty clear, but I'll re-iterate.

The current cap of exp is at +10 levels.

My original comment was that I hopes SE would add to that so that exp parties could fight tougher mobs that took longer to kill but awarded more exp, thus rewarding the additional effort.

Then I was told this was narrow-minded thinking from an FFXI bubble that I was apparently in.

Then I mentioned that solo is totally 100% viable currently.

Then I'm told that this makes party play not unworthwhile.

Yeah, I know. Guess what... Add in a higher cap and we solve this, kind of.


Yea, you could increase EP/DC mob exp, but what does that do? You then have to change the mob difficulties, or the stat allocation for players/mobs, or do some other balancing.

They already said that they are abolishing phys levels, which means a WHOLE mess of changes to stats and other things. I'll just wait and see, like all yous on on the fences over there posting about a game you haven't played in 11 months.


I'm just saying that, to an extent, FFXIV currently has it both ways. You can solo 10+ level mobs slowly, or grab a party and do it quickly. It's working for me now, because I can solo at a camp until my friends pop on, and then they can join me. Pretty casual and laid back, and fun. I just wish fights would take longer, but offer more exp, so we could enact more strategy, like use collusion and other abilities to balance hate, or use battle regiments.
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#110 Jul 30 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Default
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People solo IT, NM, and even bigger things in XI. Yet ,they still party in that game.
When the cap raises they will make higher level monsters and won't be capped at 50.
Auto Attack makes a game less cumbersome. Duh, your pushing less buttons in combat, of course it will. That isn't innovative and isn't where the industry is headed.
XIV tried to follow in that trend, but failed due to improper balance and execution.

The most boring part of mmos is leveling to cap. Especially when all the cool stuff is at endgame. Abyssea is proof of that. Casual players are actually returning because they can finally hit cap under 1-3 years. If they had only capped aby at 75 and increased xp outside abyssea by another 3 fold. They would have maintained levels of progression keeping old players and new players pleased. In it's current state it has it's lovers and haters.

If soloers are shunned by grinding with vast curves and uninteresting content on the way to cap. This game will forever be limited in playerbase. Well, how can XIV accomplish a happy medium for soloers, duoers, trioers? Maybe have lots of content downplaying the curve throughout the process.
If they design more hardcore content, they should make it so timing, positioning, group oriented mechanisms such as incapacitations, regiments, or whatever. Not only make fights easier, but almost make it immposible to do without.

-More class specific story, about double what it currently is with plot holes filled as well
-Branching Story arc guildleves delivered episodically or that chain with each other
-Gear or abilities that are quested spread out along the journey(Not purchasable via MW or guildmarks)
-Massive Dynamic PvE events accesible quite early(Solable but with encouraged grouping)
-PvP that is completely seperate from PvE in terms of balancing, accessible from early levels
-Dynamic Dungeons that generate different mobs, terrain and loot designed for 1-3 players for levels 20 and 40
-A crafting system very simple and accessible that doesn't feel tacked on(Not one click but not tedious or require vast amounts of materials)
-One time short tutorials everytime you approach content initially
-Traversing options obtainable via quests not just stopping at chocobos or airships.
-More options for customization and usability for companions and retainers
-One unique muscial theme per zone(Music stimulates nostalgia and relaxes or excites depending on the situation)
-Provide goals for soloers to contribute something towards companies always
-Shared housing or airships(Soloers may like to combat solo but they enjoy chatting, seeing players in gear aquirable only with groups will make them wanna group)

Thats' all I can think of at the moment.....
#111 Jul 30 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.
#112 Jul 30 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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sandpark wrote:
People solo IT, NM, and even bigger things in XI. Yet ,they still party in that game.


A well-geared Red Mage taking on a certain NM for around 45 minutes in FFXI, wherein one cannot afford to make many mistakes throughout the whole fight, is not the same thing as anybody being able to kill a monster 10+ ranks ahead of them in a minute or two without any real danger of dying while doing so.

Other than that, I think everyone knows that FFXIV needs to fix things. Telling SE to add "more story," "better content," "more options," rather goes without saying. Your idea about a crafting system that is "very simple and accessible" sounds like a huge turnoff; we're not stupid, and we don't need content designed for stupid people.
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#113 Jul 30 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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McCarronXLD wrote:
Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.


But that's the problem: FFXI is on its way out, and there are currently no less than a hundred MMORPGs that cater to casual players.
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#114 Jul 30 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Default
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I am aware it takes more thought to solo NM in XI and XIV. But as for people killing things 7-10 levels above them in a minute or two without being close to death. People do it often in XI.

The things I listed should go without saying. But the official forums have the casual soloer vs party wars ala Final Fantasy Wars, so things that should be implemented in a simple manner get lost in the vortex of it all. By simple and accesible I don't mean stupid mode however you may think that sounds.
I am saying casual dabblers should be able to jump in and make some stuff for profit with easily obtainable materials. And the extreme crafter should have even more harder to craft items.
With skill and rarer drops needed for mats the farther you progress. Not hard as in crafts needing 15 different components and being bogged down in menus.
#115 Jul 30 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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I think that may be a little off. I've experienced more MMOs that cater to the hardcore than the casual (unfortunately).

Though I do see your point. People whom play FFXI still probably don't want to lose that atmosphere.. it's just hard for me to accept making FFXIV into that. I love FF, but I had to leave FFXI because you just killed yourself with anything you did and got next to nothing out of it, and you had to do all of it in a group. Leveling, gear, it was the longest and hardest grind of my life (even more so than my real life job was) and I hated it. How is it justifiable to camp all day waiting for a HNM, competing with other linkshells, just to get 1 item for 1 person that -may- drop, but likely will not.. or to spend 4 hours clearing Dynamis so that a couple people -may- get what they want.. or just to even level.

Really don't want to never be able to experience a FF MMO because of the grind and inability to do anything meaningful by oneself.. :(
#116 Jul 30 2011 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
McCarronXLD wrote:
Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.


But that's the problem: FFXI is on its way out, and there are currently no less than a hundred MMORPGs that cater to casual players.


You're right, and had FFXIV built itself from the ground up to be a group heavy game, focusing on the group heavy crowd it wouldn't have been such a flop initially. But they wanted a "next gen" competitive game, and they spent the money for that. If they do go ahead and convert it to a game that caters to group only people, they won't see it ever hit the black. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it may be their only chance to see its revenues > expenses.

Point is, they didn't design a game for the group crowd. They wanted everyone. They saw the dollar signs from the WoW/rift etc games, and in fact they still do and that's why they're trying to make everyone happy. I agree there is a place in the market for some developer to create a cheap game that offers a quality group experience, capture most of that market and be a financial success. But FFXIV is not and will not be that game.
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#117 Jul 30 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
McCarronXLD wrote:
Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.


But that's the problem: FFXI is on its way out, and there are currently no less than a hundred MMORPGs that cater to casual players.


I disagree that XI is on it's way out. If popularity is any measure, XI has an exponentially higher chance of outlasting XIV at this point. They've managed to bring back a large amount of players and they still have some room to work with on the way to uncapping at 99.

The 'no less than a hundred MMOs that cater to casual players' I don't see as a problem. Why would you create a game that only caters to hardcore players? Doing that completely cuts you out of the majority of the market. I'm not sure why you think cutting yourself out of part of the market... no, the majority of the market, is a good idea?
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#118 Jul 30 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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McCarronXLD wrote:
I think that may be a little off. I've experienced more MMOs that cater to the hardcore than the casual (unfortunately).

Though I do see your point. People whom play FFXI still probably don't want to lose that atmosphere.. it's just hard for me to accept making FFXIV into that. I love FF, but I had to leave FFXI because you just killed yourself with anything you did and got next to nothing out of it, and you had to do all of it in a group. Leveling, gear, it was the longest and hardest grind of my life (even more so than my real life job was) and I hated it. How is it justifiable to camp all day waiting for a HNM, competing with other linkshells, just to get 1 item for 1 person that -may- drop, but likely will not.. or to spend 4 hours clearing Dynamis so that a couple people -may- get what they want.. or just to even level.

Really don't want to never be able to experience a FF MMO because of the grind and inability to do anything meaningful by oneself.. :(



Imagine FFXI but not being forced to unite for everything. I loved FFXI. I loved my MNK. But getting the people together to get me those dang belts was a chore and a half. Imagine being able to do your class gear/advancement/etc. quests solo. As long as it was a good challenge I'd have loved FFXI even more if I could have done my own quests solo.

Not that I didn't enjoy grouping, I did. FFXI was just a little unreasonable about what kind of things should require a group to do. i.e. a mnk should have been able to get those stinkin belts solo.

There should be things that require a group to do. After all, it's a blast to get a big group together and make big things happen.


They should definitely take some time to remember a few things from FFXI.

#119 Jul 30 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
McCarronXLD wrote:
Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.


But that's the problem: FFXI is on its way out, and there are currently no less than a hundred MMORPGs that cater to casual players.


If MMO studios are unanimously focusing on the casual market, there must be a reason for it. Right?
#120 Jul 30 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
McCarronXLD wrote:
Seeing as FFXI already caters to the hardcore and group enthusiasts (to extremes), it would be nice for FFXIV to cater to the casual community.


But that's the problem: FFXI is on its way out, and there are currently no less than a hundred MMORPGs that cater to casual players.


I disagree that XI is on it's way out. If popularity is any measure, XI has an exponentially higher chance of outlasting XIV at this point. They've managed to bring back a large amount of players and they still have some room to work with on the way to uncapping at 99.

The 'no less than a hundred MMOs that cater to casual players' I don't see as a problem. Why would you create a game that only caters to hardcore players? Doing that completely cuts you out of the majority of the market. I'm not sure why you think cutting yourself out of part of the market... no, the majority of the market, is a good idea?


I would argue that everything FFXI has done in the past few years shows that it was on the way out. From abyssea giving people easy level capped characters, to easy spawning NMs, and leveling past the previous cap to low man stuff, and all that jazz, it all seemed like a last hurrah swan song type move. But, since it certainly looks like FFXIV will not catch on, and FFXI looks to maybe be the better bet, the 500ish K they have is better than the 30-50k+theoretically more subs that FFXIV may get, so maybe they go ahead and rebuild at new FFXI endgame at 90, 99, or whatever other arbitrary number they feel like and try and milk that cow a bit longer while they redevelop a new game or realize they aren't willing to actually put forth the resources for a "AAA" MMO.
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#121 Jul 31 2011 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
I would argue that everything FFXI has done in the past few years shows that it was on the way out. From abyssea giving people easy level capped characters, to easy spawning NMs, and leveling past the previous cap to low man stuff, and all that jazz, it all seemed like a last hurrah swan song type move. But, since it certainly looks like FFXIV will not catch on, and FFXI looks to maybe be the better bet, the 500ish K they have is better than the 30-50k+theoretically more subs that FFXIV may get, so maybe they go ahead and rebuild at new FFXI endgame at 90, 99, or whatever other arbitrary number they feel like and try and milk that cow a bit longer while they redevelop a new game or realize they aren't willing to actually put forth the resources for a "AAA" MMO.

I think it made sense to allow people to level much faster. Not from an 'appease the casuals' standpoint, but the majority of additions and changes were for endgame events. Most people who had been there a while didn't really benefit from ease of leveling, but new people and those who returned got to get back into the action that much quicker.

We also have to keep in mind that servers have been merged multiple times now. Many of the changes that might be attributed to XI being 'phased out' are relief for those who had their server pop double overnight. Abyssea is a timed area and having mobs on a 60 minute pop doesn't mesh well with a 90 minute time limit. Multiple ??? for spawned NMs was a great idea to keep people from arguing. Adding key items or spawn items to chests also supported this move.

500k subs for XI is a stretch. Maybe back in the days of CoP, but not now. SE needs to figure out which part of the market they want to back themselves into a corner in. The niche thing isn't working well for them. It was ok before MMOs caught on in popularity, but they really need to get with the times.
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#122 Jul 31 2011 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Your idea about a crafting system that is "very simple and accessible" sounds like a huge turnoff; we're not stupid, and we don't need content designed for stupid people.

But isn't that exactly what we have in FFXIV? The crafting system *is* very simple and stupid. All you have to do is press one butoon on your controller over and over. The fact that it isn't very accessible either doesn't really sound positive. Tedious =/= interesting. Wasting time =/= hard. Having no life =/= being a good player.
#123 Jul 31 2011 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!
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#124 Jul 31 2011 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!



Because no one can agree on what exactly should be solo and what should be group.
i.e

Quote:
Not that I didn't enjoy grouping, I did. FFXI was just a little unreasonable about what kind of things should require a group to do. i.e. a mnk should have been able to get those stinkin belts solo.


Is an example of something that I wouldn't agree should be solo-friendly. The brown and black belts were simply the most powerful waist pieces a monk got, and the brown belt would last until end game when you started to work on the black. Items like that should be hard to get, and they make you proud when you get them. You knew the difference between a Black Belt Monk and a Brown Belt Monk, and you respected them for their dedication to the job.

Things like leveling up to cap, though, is one of my sore spots with regards to the party onry mentality. I don't always have hours to log on and level, and sometimes I'd just like to do a few quests and get some XP. Other games let me do that, and when I had time to party, I could do that as well.

The whole thing is subjective and everyone has a different idea on what should be soloable and what should be group based.
#125 Jul 31 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!


In most MMOs, the coordinated group efforts are where the greatest rewards lie. There's nothing particularly complicated about it. The difficulty appears to lie in convincing the rabid group aficionados that you don't need to restrict solo play to farming and non-combat meta-games in order to promote a healthy grouping environment.
#126 Jul 31 2011 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!


In most MMOs, the coordinated group efforts are where the greatest rewards lie. There's nothing particularly complicated about it. The difficulty appears to lie in convincing the rabid group aficionados that you don't need to restrict solo play to farming and non-combat meta-games in order to promote a healthy grouping environment.


Sizzle, sizzle, I'm a sausage!


Who are the rabid group aficionados anyway? Do you mean people that actually play FFXIV? Surely not!?
#127 Jul 31 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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NumptyHunter wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!


In most MMOs, the coordinated group efforts are where the greatest rewards lie. There's nothing particularly complicated about it. The difficulty appears to lie in convincing the rabid group aficionados that you don't need to restrict solo play to farming and non-combat meta-games in order to promote a healthy grouping environment.


Sizzle, sizzle, I'm a sausage!


Who are the rabid group aficionados anyway? Do you mean people that actually play FFXIV? Surely not!?


There has always been the vocal minority in these forums who would be happy to see little/no solo viability at all because, to their way of thinking, if you force people to group there will be more people available to group with. What they don't realize is that it won't mean more people available to group with...it would mean fewer people playing the game.
#128 Jul 31 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!



Because no one can agree on what exactly should be solo and what should be group.
i.e

Quote:
Not that I didn't enjoy grouping, I did. FFXI was just a little unreasonable about what kind of things should require a group to do. i.e. a mnk should have been able to get those stinkin belts solo.


Is an example of something that I wouldn't agree should be solo-friendly. The brown and black belts were simply the most powerful waist pieces a monk got, and the brown belt would last until end game when you started to work on the black. Items like that should be hard to get, and they make you proud when you get them. You knew the difference between a Black Belt Monk and a Brown Belt Monk, and you respected them for their dedication to the job.

Things like leveling up to cap, though, is one of my sore spots with regards to the party onry mentality. I don't always have hours to log on and level, and sometimes I'd just like to do a few quests and get some XP. Other games let me do that, and when I had time to party, I could do that as well.

The whole thing is subjective and everyone has a different idea on what should be soloable and what should be group based.



Going have to stop you here, some of the most hardest games I've played are SOLO games. There's absolutely no reason, why the MNK belts couldn't be done solo and still hard 'to get'.

The hardest part of group play is getting a group. In FF11 the Promothia missions were regularly considered one of the "hardest parts of the game" (at least when I played) but honestly the only hard part about them was getting a group to get them done. Sure I wiped some, maybe 5 times most on one of the missions, but if getting a group wasn't so hard it wouldn't have taken me weeks to finish that mission and instead maybe one day, and no one would be calling it "hard". In FF11 hard, was "There's not enough people to do this" and everyone just lied to themselves that it was the difficulty of the game.

Really, the only way I expect an MMORPG to truly be hard, is if they put a decent A.I. into the game. So really if you guys want this game to be hard...thats what we need to be asking Yoshi P for .
#129 Jul 31 2011 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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zuogehaomeng wrote:
Torrence wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!



Because no one can agree on what exactly should be solo and what should be group.
i.e

Quote:
Not that I didn't enjoy grouping, I did. FFXI was just a little unreasonable about what kind of things should require a group to do. i.e. a mnk should have been able to get those stinkin belts solo.


Is an example of something that I wouldn't agree should be solo-friendly. The brown and black belts were simply the most powerful waist pieces a monk got, and the brown belt would last until end game when you started to work on the black. Items like that should be hard to get, and they make you proud when you get them. You knew the difference between a Black Belt Monk and a Brown Belt Monk, and you respected them for their dedication to the job.

Things like leveling up to cap, though, is one of my sore spots with regards to the party onry mentality. I don't always have hours to log on and level, and sometimes I'd just like to do a few quests and get some XP. Other games let me do that, and when I had time to party, I could do that as well.

The whole thing is subjective and everyone has a different idea on what should be soloable and what should be group based.



Going have to stop you here, some of the most hardest games I've played are SOLO games. There's absolutely no reason, why the MNK belts couldn't be done solo and still hard 'to get'.

The hardest part of group play is getting a group. In FF11 the Promothia missions were regularly considered one of the "hardest parts of the game" (at least when I played) but honestly the only hard part about them was getting a group to get them done. Sure I wiped some, maybe 5 times most on one of the missions, but if getting a group wasn't so hard it wouldn't have taken me weeks to finish that mission and instead maybe one day, and no one would be calling it "hard". In FF11 hard, was "There's not enough people to do this" and everyone just lied to themselves that it was the difficulty of the game.

Really, the only way I expect an MMORPG to truly be hard, is if they put a decent A.I. into the game. So really if you guys want this game to be hard...thats what we need to be asking Yoshi P for .


you do realize that with the way ff11 plays it would be hard to make solo content challenging without being unfair, unless you were a job that had many utilities. like RDM for instance. MNK is not one of those jobs.

as for the CoP thing, i don't know when you beat those, but a bunch of battles were hard. CoP in my opinion was one of the best experiences of ff11 because if someone had sea, you knew what kind of player they were. dedicated, good at their jobs, good thinker. i had the fortune of beating CoP before the best strategies were made, and that made me a better player.

i do agree with you that trying to find people to do things in that game and waiting for hours wasn't fun. but those missions WERE hard.

as for what you think would make an MMO hard, well just stating "make smarter AI" doesn't cut it. theres alot of things that go into making something challenging. strategy, buffs, debuffs, boss spawns adds, limited number of players. take divine might for example. that really was not an easy fight. It was one of the hardest things to do in the game. that mission took a great deal of coordination to pull off successfully, along with a bit of luck. and the AI was as dumb as bricks.
#130 Jul 31 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
as for the CoP thing, i don't know when you beat those, but a bunch of battles were hard. CoP in my opinion was one of the best experiences of ff11 because if someone had sea, you knew what kind of player they were. dedicated, good at their jobs, good thinker. i had the fortune of beating CoP before the best strategies were made, and that made me a better player.


I agree that CoP was one of the best things about FFXI, but getting sea or completing CoP before or after there were set strategies for certain battles didn't make a player "good" or "better." I remember when CoP first came out, I tried to make a static for the missions with a few people, and for the first few missions it worked out pretty well. A little while later though, one of the members got impatient with waiting for our meet times for the missions (it was like 3-4 times a week) and went behind our backs and took two members from the static (our only mages) along with three other members from his shell to go on with the missions. Of course neither I nor the other members that weren't taken along didn't find out about this until our next meeting, when we were the only ones that showed up.

Funnily enough, he screwed the members that left us too. He did the same thing to them that he did to us, and he eventually got to sea by using people. He was the kind of person that didn't like to wait or work with others, but was also the type of person that was always caught up with the CoP missions. Whenever SE would release a new batch, he would race along like a little rat to finish them as soon as he could, until he was eventually one of the first few people to get sea and complete CoP. Does that sound like a "good" player to you? He might've been "good" and "dedicated" at what he did, but he is the kind of invaluable player that the game would have been better without.

So I agree with zuogehaomeng, the only hard part of the missions was finding members. The battles were a little challenging, but as long as you could form a group with people who weren't completely incompetent (probably more difficult than any CoP mission), you'd usually end up being fine. This is also coming from someone who has completed CoP thrice before the missions were ever nerfed.
#131 Aug 01 2011 at 12:30 AM Rating: Good
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
you do realize that with the way ff11 plays it would be hard to make solo content challenging without being unfair, unless you were a job that had many utilities. like RDM for instance. MNK is not one of those jobs.

as for the CoP thing, i don't know when you beat those, but a bunch of battles were hard. CoP in my opinion was one of the best experiences of ff11 because if someone had sea, you knew what kind of player they were. dedicated, good at their jobs, good thinker. i had the fortune of beating CoP before the best strategies were made, and that made me a better player.

i do agree with you that trying to find people to do things in that game and waiting for hours wasn't fun. but those missions WERE hard.

as for what you think would make an MMO hard, well just stating "make smarter AI" doesn't cut it. theres alot of things that go into making something challenging. strategy, buffs, debuffs, boss spawns adds, limited number of players. take divine might for example. that really was not an easy fight. It was one of the hardest things to do in the game. that mission took a great deal of coordination to pull off successfully, along with a bit of luck. and the AI was as dumb as bricks.


CoP mission battles were only "hard" relative to other content in FFXI. CoP simply required that players do something they had rarely (if ever) had to do in an FFXI combat scenario: think about something more than WS/MBs. If you understood the fights and came prepared like you would as a raider in pretty much any other MMO, you were fine. If anything, it was the random nature of the fights that made them "hard". It was just a shame that the devs didn't seem to know how to tune around the RNG so that it could throw you a curveball without flattening you with a wrecking ball. Other games produce "challenge" by requiring you to respond within a certain margin for error, with the "hard" content having a margin of error measured in a fraction of a second.

"Luck" should never factor into it. If you've got a large group of players setting aside a block of time to tackle a segment of content and they fail, there had **** well better be a good reason for it that can be attributed to something beyond sloppy tuning and RNG. And given the way SE tended to append a cost of some sort to pretty much anything worthwhile, telling a group, "Hey, we did everything right but we just got ************ by the random number generator" doesn't cut it.

Solo play doesn't need to be hard. There are ways for players to ramp up the difficulty on their own without requiring that it be coded into mob AI and without alienating less apt gamers. Pull more. Fight higher level mobs. Solo elites. If you're wanting to shrink the margin for error, there are always ways to do so that don't require a developer to go out of their way to ramp up the difficulty across the board.
#132 Aug 01 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
NumptyHunter wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!


In most MMOs, the coordinated group efforts are where the greatest rewards lie. There's nothing particularly complicated about it. The difficulty appears to lie in convincing the rabid group aficionados that you don't need to restrict solo play to farming and non-combat meta-games in order to promote a healthy grouping environment.


Sizzle, sizzle, I'm a sausage!


Who are the rabid group aficionados anyway? Do you mean people that actually play FFXIV? Surely not!?


There has always been the vocal minority in these forums who would be happy to see little/no solo viability at all because, to their way of thinking, if you force people to group there will be more people available to group with. What they don't realize is that it won't mean more people available to group with...it would mean fewer people playing the game.


I don't think anyone has said they want to eliminate soloing from the game.

I personally like the plan Yoshi-P has stated: Leves for solo, party/dungeons for groups.
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#133 Aug 01 2011 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:

I don't think anyone has said they want to eliminate soloing from the game.

I personally like the plan Yoshi-P has stated: Leves for solo, party/dungeons for groups.


Leves are terrible. Restricted, repetitive, and just awfully dull after a while. There has to be a lot more than leves, grinding, and crafting to keep a solo player happily occupied and then the group alternatives build on that.

And I never said anyone wants to see solo eliminated from the game. Plenty have said they want to see it so heavily restricted that players will feel grouping is usually their best option for anything/everything.
#134 Aug 01 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

I don't think anyone has said they want to eliminate soloing from the game.

I personally like the plan Yoshi-P has stated: Leves for solo, party/dungeons for groups.


Leves are terrible. Restricted, repetitive, and just awfully dull after a while. There has to be a lot more than leves, grinding, and crafting to keep a solo player happily occupied and then the group alternatives build on that.

And I never said anyone wants to see solo eliminated from the game. Plenty have said they want to see it so heavily restricted that players will feel grouping is usually their best option for anything/everything.


Well gods help us, because I agree with you.

The only thing leves have going for them right now is they provide a good shot sp right now in a short amount of time, as you are now rewarded for completing leves faster and actually encouraged to do the leve correctly instead of trying to farm the monsters from the leve.

I would like to see your companion from the main storyline make an appearance as a companion you could summon at other times to help with quests, leveling, etc, similar to FFXI's companions but with more involvement, seperate quests, etc.
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#135 Aug 01 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Despite the storyline, CoP was without a doubt the biggest failure to date in XI excluding the mini-expansions. The missions weren't hard, just a pain in the ***. I think I spent more time waiting on people to leave battlegrounds to collect the cutscenes they forgot to get than I did actually working on the missions. All that time and build up for the monumental let-down at the end =/


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#136 Aug 01 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Despite the storyline, CoP was without a doubt the biggest failure to date in XI excluding the mini-expansions. The missions weren't hard, just a pain in the ***. I think I spent more time waiting on people to leave battlegrounds to collect the cutscenes they forgot to get than I did actually working on the missions. All that time and build up for the monumental let-down at the end =/


I believe people have some rose-tinted glasses on for CoP.

Uncapping the missions made a lot of people upset but I really enjoyed it. Once they were soloable/small groupable, they became more accessible and more fun. You still needed a group for some things and some of the missions were still such a pain (Three Paths, I'm looking at you) but I believe with the quest markers in FFXIV, a lot of this frustration would be alleviated.

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#137 Aug 01 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Default
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Keysofgaruda wrote:
zuogehaomeng wrote:
Torrence wrote:
insanekangaroo wrote:
Why would it not be possible to make a game that is BOTH casual and favours group-based battles?!



Because no one can agree on what exactly should be solo and what should be group.
i.e

Quote:
Not that I didn't enjoy grouping, I did. FFXI was just a little unreasonable about what kind of things should require a group to do. i.e. a mnk should have been able to get those stinkin belts solo.


Is an example of something that I wouldn't agree should be solo-friendly. The brown and black belts were simply the most powerful waist pieces a monk got, and the brown belt would last until end game when you started to work on the black. Items like that should be hard to get, and they make you proud when you get them. You knew the difference between a Black Belt Monk and a Brown Belt Monk, and you respected them for their dedication to the job.

Things like leveling up to cap, though, is one of my sore spots with regards to the party onry mentality. I don't always have hours to log on and level, and sometimes I'd just like to do a few quests and get some XP. Other games let me do that, and when I had time to party, I could do that as well.

The whole thing is subjective and everyone has a different idea on what should be soloable and what should be group based.



Going have to stop you here, some of the most hardest games I've played are SOLO games. There's absolutely no reason, why the MNK belts couldn't be done solo and still hard 'to get'.

The hardest part of group play is getting a group. In FF11 the Promothia missions were regularly considered one of the "hardest parts of the game" (at least when I played) but honestly the only hard part about them was getting a group to get them done. Sure I wiped some, maybe 5 times most on one of the missions, but if getting a group wasn't so hard it wouldn't have taken me weeks to finish that mission and instead maybe one day, and no one would be calling it "hard". In FF11 hard, was "There's not enough people to do this" and everyone just lied to themselves that it was the difficulty of the game.

Really, the only way I expect an MMORPG to truly be hard, is if they put a decent A.I. into the game. So really if you guys want this game to be hard...thats what we need to be asking Yoshi P for .


you do realize that with the way ff11 plays it would be hard to make solo content challenging without being unfair, unless you were a job that had many utilities. like RDM for instance. MNK is not one of those jobs.

as for the CoP thing, i don't know when you beat those, but a bunch of battles were hard. CoP in my opinion was one of the best experiences of ff11 because if someone had sea, you knew what kind of player they were. dedicated, good at their jobs, good thinker. i had the fortune of beating CoP before the best strategies were made, and that made me a better player.

i do agree with you that trying to find people to do things in that game and waiting for hours wasn't fun. but those missions WERE hard.

as for what you think would make an MMO hard, well just stating "make smarter AI" doesn't cut it. theres alot of things that go into making something challenging. strategy, buffs, debuffs, boss spawns adds, limited number of players. take divine might for example. that really was not an easy fight. It was one of the hardest things to do in the game. that mission took a great deal of coordination to pull off successfully, along with a bit of luck. and the AI was as dumb as bricks.


Yes your right about monk, at least how it currently was on FF11. Still we had Maat limit breaks which were solo, and I dont know about all of the jobs, but alot of them were pretty hard. I think they could have found a way~ it would have required alot of special work and considering I dont think the developers ever really thought about solo that much it would have been too much for them too do.

As for PM, I played them maybe about 4 years ago. Still had the level caps ect. Honestly, I didn't find them that difficult, just hard to get a group, sure I died some but I felt mostly limited by the time to get a group together more than anything.you could've gotten a stupid player too, but as long as you had a competent team, PMs were not that bad. They were more difficult than ALOT of the game though and wish more of it was like it.

"strategy, buffs, debuffs," all of these come naturally if you have good A.I. if the computer smart, you have to use strategy , buffs and debuffs, I will agree with you can have other factors such as limitations on number of people entering, or it could be like PM's and even level limitations. But I still think a better A.I. can make a much bigger difference in difficulty.

coordination? Divine might was difficult..~ though I always thought skillchains in FF11 and magic bursts which require coordination should have given bigger rewards...I was always hoping they could have an EXP bonus for it. I think it would be a smart way to encourage group play.


#138 Aug 01 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe with the quest markers in FFXIV, a lot of this frustration would be alleviated


I loved CoP for it's story, but I've got to agree with this. As I went through the missions, I couldn't help but wonder how in the **** anyone figured out what to do.

XIV's journal would make CoP such a better. Ultimately, it suffered from the same downfall most early MMOs did: substituting timesinks for actual challenge.

I finally got a chance to Deepcroft last night and I've got to say that I am pleased. We managed to take down the ogre but I kind of screwed things up in the next room. But the thing is, it felt like an actual challenge. We had to communicate and think on our feet. And the best part was, we didn't have to farm some entrance item with a low drop rate or wait an arbitrary period of time.

I really hope SE can produce a story with the quality of CoP while maintaining the kind of challenge Deepcroft shows is possible.

Deepcroft also is an example of blending hardcore and casual.

Casuals can go in and get some great SP and even pop at least one chest. Hardcores can blitz it to gear up members for future events. A good harmony if you ask me.
#139 Aug 01 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoP was THE reason why I quit FFXI. After a couple wasted weekends trying to find a group and wiping, I just gave up. I never beat a promy.

A bit more on topic:

I always wondered if one were to replace the graphics, music and storyline from Final Fantasy and place it into WoW...

I think it would be very very popular. But I would wonder how long it would last. I would like to touch on depth and exclusivity in MMOs (specifically WoW vs. say, FFXI) but I'll just focus now parties as it seems this is the main contention in conversation.

I could go either way on party play. However I think Final Fantasy is a party driven game at it's roots and if I had the choice I'd love to see it become viable again. I think it can be entirely possible but we'd have to shift what we currently know about party play and SE would have to shift their approach as well. IF we are confined to what we are given in FFXIV then I guess it's back to dungeon/forming our own groups, solo/everything else. For me that's not acceptable (in the long run) because not only would I like to see party play, play more of a role, but I'd like to experience something new in an MMO as well.

Conversely, I don't mind solo play and I'm not adverse to it, but I only enjoy it partly because of the negatives that grouping entails. And I really only enjoyed it in FFXI because of the challenge it presented. If you eliminated or appeared to eliminate those negative aspects, that would be a great starting point.

It would be cool, for example, to have SELF/AI controlled "party" members like in FFXII that could be run on gambits, while at the same time allowing for others to join into your party. There are many other things like the idea of "Rifts" or just public parties in general, that allow easier grouping, or even a PvP group model, but for PvE content. Server wide open queues for 30min dungeons or just group quests.

All of these things combined would, in short, help in making party play casual content.

Instead of denying it outright or embracing it completely, there is a larger grey area than it seems on this topic. Whether or not it's viable in FFXIV is another story.

And ironically or not a lot of games (especially free to play) and upcoming games like GW2 are incorporating some if not all of these ideas. And while the genre is evolving, FFXIV is still playing catch-up.


#140 Aug 01 2011 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I might be mistaken but besides story line the only thing that I can think of happening in MMOs is the grind (by party, quests, leves, dungeons) and social interaction. We we disregard the storyline then the only thing that I can think of to bring people into the game is the E-Peen.

Personaly I don't want the game to be more party friendly so I can have more people to party with, the reason why I want a game to be more dependant on party for achieving goals is that this will "make" people be somewhat nicer or polite to each other. To me me this was the great difference between FFXI and all other MMOs I tried. By enabling solo play people will disregard the way they may be percieved by the comunity at large and act line a spoiled 3 year old.
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#141 Aug 01 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
Personaly I don't want the game to be more party friendly so I can have more people to party with, the reason why I want a game to be more dependant on party for achieving goals is that this will "make" people be somewhat nicer or polite to each other. To me me this was the great difference between FFXI and all other MMOs I tried. By enabling solo play people will disregard the way they may be percieved by the comunity at large and act line a spoiled 3 year old.

Forcing players to work together doesn't always promote community. WoW gets bashed here all the time for their community and they used to have 40-man raids. I think people disregard the way the community perceives them because they are anonymous.

The only difference in XI was if you decided to be an asshat and ***** someone over, you had to consider the possibility of starting over. All the boring, tedious missions. All the mindless grinding. Camping NMs for hours on end against RMT. Not many wanted to have to start over with a clean slate.
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#142 Aug 01 2011 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFXI had its share of asshats. What's funny is that only the FFXI community thinks that the FFXI community was such a great atmosphere. In reality, the FFXI community was one of the most vicious and bitter and competitive towards each other and I have seen more than my fair share of ugliness even here in these very forums over the years.

Fighting over camping spots, fighting over NMs, fighting over drops because there was never enough for everyone, griefing people who you didn't feel "deserved" a leveling area because they didn't have a bard, the list goes on. I'll agree that sometimes you will come across some people who are just plain jerks who take advantage of the anonymity, but let's not pretend that the FF community is a group of saints.
#143 Aug 01 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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What's funny is that only the FFXI community thinks that the FFXI community was such a great atmosphere.


Well, for every story about an LS leader taking off with a bank of Dynamis currency or someone ninja lotting, I heard two about someone doing something out of nothing more than selfless kindness. It's just that drama is more vocalized than happiness. Such is human nature.

But I do agree with the point that being forced to group for the most basic of tasks doesn't automatically make people more kind. It just makes the bad people hide who they are until they have what they're after. This was amplified in XI because of how long it took to achieve anything in a system where many people were expected to put in the effort/time to get one person a reward.

That's why I'm glad to see both seals and chests involved with Grand Companies. Everyone can work on an independent goal while striving to obtain rare drops. That's the way to encourage group play. An LS leader can't break the shell after thieving the group coffers. I'd think there's also less desperation to ninja loot something when there's no sense of desperation like there was in XI.

As was said, some people are just jerks. And they always will be. But that's no reason to punish the many because of they few -- as was SE's course of action in XI.

1.18 has proven to be a solid foundation. Now SE just needs to furiously build on it.
#144 Aug 01 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
FFXI had its share of asshats. What's funny is that only the FFXI community thinks that the FFXI community was such a great atmosphere. In reality, the FFXI community was one of the most vicious and bitter and competitive towards each other and I have seen more than my fair share of ugliness even here in these very forums over the years.

Fighting over camping spots, fighting over NMs, fighting over drops because there was never enough for everyone, griefing people who you didn't feel "deserved" a leveling area because they didn't have a bard, the list goes on. I'll agree that sometimes you will come across some people who are just plain jerks who take advantage of the anonymity, but let's not pretend that the FF community is a group of saints.


I guess when fans of FFXI say atmosphere they mean that there was a lack of "l33t speak." And a large part of that had to do with the lack of a global chat. At best I can see it as a more "mature" game language wise, but even that might have been a stretch.

But like Filth touches on, good players did have to keep up a reputation to keep getting invited to groups and to not get blacklisted. It was very "fear" based. But then again most games are like that; people will eventually know your name if you do something stupid.

More to Torrence's point: tolerance, especially in grouping wasn't really in the minds of most after a while. PUGs were horrible and brought the worst out of people and even though I liked partying with JPs, there was some nasty back and forth between NA and JP.

My first linkshell broke because of constant infighting.

And let's not forget the lowly mage shouting "PULL!" rudely as you're trying to be skillful in avoiding an add.

And of course, as you mention, party spots were very contentious.

So I can definitely see both sides.
#145 Aug 01 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
I might be mistaken but besides story line the only thing that I can think of happening in MMOs is the grind (by party, quests, leves, dungeons) and social interaction. We we disregard the storyline then the only thing that I can think of to bring people into the game is the E-Peen.

Personaly I don't want the game to be more party friendly so I can have more people to party with, the reason why I want a game to be more dependant on party for achieving goals is that this will "make" people be somewhat nicer or polite to each other. To me me this was the great difference between FFXI and all other MMOs I tried. By enabling solo play people will disregard the way they may be percieved by the comunity at large and act line a spoiled 3 year old.


Since we're talking about rose colored glasses, I think people very easily forget how poorly people could behave in FFXI. There was nothing about WoW that attracted young players aside from the fact that it was a game released by a very successful game studio based out of North America with an established franchise to help sell the name. The Warcraft RTS series was hugely popular. WoW just happened to hit the market at the right time, and by integrating PvE MMO aspects with a strong PvP element, they were the first MMO to put everything everyone wanted at the time into one package. The one area Blizzard chose to overlook (and just recently changed their stance on) was the active integration of lore through a more engaging medium than simply quest text.

There's no basis to assume that truly viable and entertaining solo play invites a 'less than desirable' crowd. Around the time FFXI was released, MMOs were far from mainstream. They were still the playthings of adult dorks who didn't have to convince parents to pay a monthly sub for a video game. Warcraft changed that through marketing momentum. It all came down to timing. Now that the younger demographic has been brought into the fold, you'll find them in any MMO you play. You'll find the older gamers who just don't know how to behave in any MMO. Solo or group...doesn't matter. "Forcing" people to be nice to one another because they have to rely on one another is a pretty superficial glue to hold a community together, and no game I have ever played demonstrated the same level of loot whoring and endgame drama that I encountered in FFXI.
#146 Aug 01 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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On the subject of player behavior in FFXI:

I can tell you that EVERY single party invite I got as a puppetmaster, came because of my reputation. Now, I'm not saying I'm gods gift to puppeteering, but every party I got into, I recognized one of the party members from an earlier party, and people would regularly tell me "I would never invite a pup, but they vouched for you and I was impressed."

The game did require you to be on your P's and Q's because most people only have 1 character and couldn't just change characters thus bringing in some real-world accountability that the internet lacks.

I didn't have extensive group contact in WoW, but I imagine all the reputation comes from Barrens chat and other world chat. It was just widespread enough that anyone with a 7 day trial could experience it and then also be a total d-bag on.

FFXI did have many douches, including the entire RocDynasty LS on Siren, Feiwong, and so many others. I can't say it was more or less civil than other mmos because I just don't have enough experience with them, but I've been in many social LS's in ffxi and for the most part, it's a 5:1 nice person to total douche ratio.

I think what FFXI suffered from most was "Know-It-All Syndrome." Everyone knew everything and was generally an *** about knowing it, even when they were wrong, which was usually.

So yeah, in PUGs and some of the hardcore LS's you got the worst of it, but in social LS's, people were generally friendly and nice.

Edited, Aug 1st 2011 3:31pm by Louiscool

Edited, Aug 1st 2011 3:32pm by Louiscool
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#147 Aug 01 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
On the subject of player behavior in FFXI:

I can tell you that EVERY single party invite I got as a puppetmaster, came because of my reputation. Now, I'm not saying I'm gods gift to puppeteering, but every party I got into, I recognized one of the party members from an earlier party, and people would regularly tell me "I would never invite a pup, but they vouched for you and I was impressed."

The game did require you to be on your P's and Q's because most people only have 1 character and couldn't just change characters thus bringing in some real-world accountability that the internet lacks.

I didn't have extensive group contact in WoW, but I imagine all the reputation comes from Barrens chat and other world chat. It was just widespread enough that anyone with a 7 day trial could experience it and then also be a total d-bag on.

FFXI did have many douches, including the entire RocDynasty LS on Siren, Feiwong, and so many others. I can't say it was more or less civil than other mmos because I just don't have enough experience with them, but I've been in many social LS's in ffxi and for the most part, it's a 5:1 nice person to total douche ratio.

I think what FFXI suffered from most was "Know-It-All Syndrome." Everyone knew everything and was generally an *** about knowing it, even when they were wrong, which was usually.

So yeah, in PUGs and some of the hardcore LS's you got the worst of it, but in social LS's, people were generally friendly and nice.


There's this odd sort of assumption floating around the people routinely abuse paid name changes and/or reroll to escape a poor reputation. It just doesn't happen as often as some might want to let on. I did hear of people doing that kind of thing in WoW, but it wasn't common. I encountered a lot more idiots in FFXIV than I ever did in WoW. And on the flip side of the coin were so many people that were so "nice" it was cloying. You don't need to kiss my *** every time I talk to you in order for me to treat you well.

One difference between a casual MMO and a game like FFXI is that nobody expects you to join a PUG for longer than an hour in a casual group. In FFXI where 3-4+ hour xp/merit parties were not only common but functionally assumed to be the norm, you tend to get to know people better. More modern MMOs just don't ask that of players. Group content is tuned to typically take around an hour to clear. For large group stuff like raids it's a little different, but most people don't PUG raids until the content is easily outgeared. It has nothing to do with group vs. solo and everything to do with, "How long do we, as a developer, reasonably expect a well adjusted adult to commit to a PUG group?"

Community is what you make of it. Alts and/or paid name changes/server transfers as a means to try to dodge a poor reputation are fringe cases.
#148 Aug 01 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
One difference between a casual MMO and a game like FFXI is that nobody expects you to join a PUG for longer than an hour in a casual group. In FFXI where 3-4+ hour xp/merit parties were not only common but functionally assumed to be the norm, you tend to get to know people better. More modern MMOs just don't ask that of players. Group content is tuned to typically take around an hour to clear.


I'm not sure I agree that you got to know people better simply because a meripo was longer. In what I would consider the best merit groups I had, there was never really any communication. People were so focused on keeping the chains going that there just wasn't much time for it. I'd imagine much has changed in XI regarding PUG due to the addition of abyssea and being able to low-man content now, but it's taken nearly a decade to achieve.

Even when SE added more events that should have promoted meeting other players and involved group strategy, the players shunned it. Walk of Echoes is a perfect example. People would go into a publicly accessible event with every intention of keeping all of the loot for themselves and their group. If anyone from outside of their group entered, they were ridiculed and called 'leeches' even before the event started and regardless of their contribution. Even to the point of trying to wipe other groups and players. The system has it's flaws, but instead of coming up with a solution, players would rather not participate at all.



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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#149 Aug 02 2011 at 12:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
One difference between a casual MMO and a game like FFXI is that nobody expects you to join a PUG for longer than an hour in a casual group. In FFXI where 3-4+ hour xp/merit parties were not only common but functionally assumed to be the norm, you tend to get to know people better. More modern MMOs just don't ask that of players. Group content is tuned to typically take around an hour to clear.


I'm not sure I agree that you got to know people better simply because a meripo was longer. In what I would consider the best merit groups I had, there was never really any communication. People were so focused on keeping the chains going that there just wasn't much time for it. I'd imagine much has changed in XI regarding PUG due to the addition of abyssea and being able to low-man content now, but it's taken nearly a decade to achieve.


If you're in a group with someone for 4+ hours and the group is performing well, you're going to remember the individuals in that group much easier than if you're in a group with them for 45 minutes. Even if you're focused on fighting with no chat whatsoever, you're still going to be seeing their name on the party frames repeatedly throughout the session. FFXI was in many cases about friendships formed out of convenience. You wanted to remember the decent players because a decent party meant faster xp/merit points, and that meant an abbreviated grind.

It didn't necessarily mean that you were pals. It didn't mean you'd sit there chatting for hours on end. It just means you remembered the good and the bad because it was in your best interest to do so. And while there are worse ways and worse motivations to form a community, it's not the sunshine and roses a lot of people try to make it out to be. You could count on certain people to perform at a high level in a generic grind party but you wouldn't necessarily trust them to not ****** off with any valuable loot that might have dropped.

FFXI was my first MMO. I didn't buy it with any real thought to the social aspects. I bought it because I was a fan of the franchise. I met a lot of people and made a lot of friends in FFXI, but I also met people and made friends in every other MMO I've played. For some people, the social aspect is the focus and I'm fine with that. That's why I have no problem with developers who focus their endgame development efforts on group content. My endgame focus in any MMO is always on the group stuff, whether it's PvE or PvP. But at the same time, I'm still an RPG fan...online or not...and a developer has a better chance of retaining my subscription if they provide me with a game where I can log in and enjoy myself whether I feel like grouping or not. That's why MMO developers have made substantial effort to incorporate entertaining solo play into MMOs. It just makes sense.

The latest AAA MMO title to have been released is Rift and they've got a healthy (and growing) population well over 500k players. They understood that you can have both aspects and you can do some really cool things to weave the two together in a way that players really enjoy while reducing the tedious chore that forming a group often entails. Even a game like EVE that is touted as "hardcore" has a tremendous amount of "content" accessible to solo players. If you want to run missions or mine or explore as a solo player, there are hundreds of high security systems ("zones") where you don't have to worry so much about getting popped, and whether or not you can solo a given agent mission is a function of your standing, skills, and ship. And the group content doesn't suffer for it. At all. And that's a game that was released around the same time as FFXI.

Quote:
Even when SE added more events that should have promoted meeting other players and involved group strategy, the players shunned it. Walk of Echoes is a perfect example. People would go into a publicly accessible event with every intention of keeping all of the loot for themselves and their group. If anyone from outside of their group entered, they were ridiculed and called 'leeches' even before the event started and regardless of their contribution. Even to the point of trying to wipe other groups and players. The system has it's flaws, but instead of coming up with a solution, players would rather not participate at all.


That's another tragic example of a developer overestimating the general sentiment of goodwill amongst its community and failing to design and present reward systems that account for reality.
#150Hugus, Posted: Aug 02 2011 at 1:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Some of you were saying that the game shouldnt need to require you to depend on party play to make the population behave but you need to think that behind all those pixels there are humans with human tendencies, if we didn't need to be kept in line then there woul be no need for police or judicial system. As someone said, by having all your eggs in the same basket (read character) you would need to think twice about doing something that you knew would be percieved by the comunity at large as "wrong".
#151 Aug 02 2011 at 7:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
That's another tragic example of a developer overestimating the general sentiment of goodwill amongst its community and failing to design and present reward systems that account for reality.

I blame the players on this one. SE added an event in which you could obtain currency to upgrade a relic equivalent(or better) weapon. The alternative was months or perhaps years of farming(dynamis or other) to accomplish. Instead, all you had to do in Walk of Echoes was share and not be greedy. Players who pug it made a system where you agree to lot on only one type of currency and it seemed to work just fine. The only people who had a problem with it were linkshells who wanted the entire zone to themselves.

Hugus wrote:
Personally age also had a major inpact, be it real age or maturity. By being hard/longer to attain objectives FFXI would sift out younger population which depends on immediate satistaction.

Bolded for emphasis. Time=/=difficulty. I don't think it sifted out the younger, more immature players as much as the players who just wanted to enjoy all of the content. Setting unrealistic goals isn't fun for most people who play videogames. Most people who play want great gear. For a while in XI that meant relic weapons. That was a goal that was out of reach for most people and it had absolutely nothing to do with age or maturity.

I know things have changed since the update(maybe for the worse), but humor me...

Try explaining what getting a relic requires to some of your friends. Explain to them that 6 of you could run dynamis on cooldown until you all got relic weapons. Explain to them that all they need is to run dyna 3-4 hours a day, every 3 days for the next 30 months and they'll have the best weapons(what used to be the best weapons anyway) in the game. When they walk out or look at you like you're crazy, tell them that they are acting childish and being immature...





____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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