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Separation Anxiety: XIV and the eventual alienationFollow

#152 Aug 02 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
Some of you were saying that the game shouldnt need to require you to depend on party play to make the population behave but you need to think that behind all those pixels there are humans with human tendencies, if we didn't need to be kept in line then there woul be no need for police or judicial system. As someone said, by having all your eggs in the same basket (read character) you would need to think twice about doing something that you knew would be percieved by the comunity at large as "wrong".


You're being a little naive. Try not to cling to this unfortunate notion that people behave any differently in one game vs. another. People will behave as they're inclined to behave in groups or otherwise, and they don't need Daddy Developer guiding their hand. No MMO I've ever played has made leveling to the cap such a trivial affair that people saw a character they had invested any significant amount of time into as a throw-away character. There's a difference between someone making a level 1 alt to talk smack and someone who levels a character to endgame and just decides to reroll because nobody likes them anymore. It just doesn't happen as often as you think it would and the fact that there were people in FFXI who had reputations as undesirable folks to be around suggests that it doesn't matter what restrictions you put on someone. People do what they do and if they cross a particular line, it's for the GMs to sort out.

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Maybe if I had the same experience in FFXI as I did in WoW I would have seen the same things happening but that was not the case, the only experince I had from it was as a gamer. also, by saying that only FFXI players think that the comunity was good is not a coloured glasses remark since those that didn't play wouldnt really have the knowledge to make their minds about it.


The thing is, I did play FFXI. And a number of other MMOs. The communities aren't substantially different. You have decent folks and not so decent folks in every MMO.

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At the end of the day, on FFIX I could block contact with people that I disagreed with their behaviour while on WoW this was simply inpractical, easily a third of the population would be included in this group. This was because of the large ammount of people being/actile like children would simply promote other people to do the same. Personally age also had a major inpact, be it real age or maturity. By being hard/longer to attain objectives FFXI would sift out younger population which depends on immediate satistaction.


The thing is, not all of us feel the compulsion to block people just because they're obnoxious. I don't run around putting everyone on ignore whom I determined to be a twit. I didn't sit in Stormwind/Orgrimmar in WoW and cycle people onto my ignore list for being dorks in trade chat. A thick skin serves a person just as well in an MMO as it does on internet forums. After 3+ years of WoW I think I wound up with a total of 20 people on my ignore list across all characters on all servers. I had more than that on my ignore list after only slightly less time in FFXI.
#153 Aug 02 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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While I want to believe FFXI had a better community, I just believe that every mmo has scores of greedy little know-it-all's who bark orders, steal drops, and whine like babies when things don't go their way.

FFXI just saw much fewer asshats through the law of averages. Percentages were probably the same but the pool you pull from was much smaller due to WoW being a much more popular game with a marketing campaign with Mr. T in it. The player who feels an affinity with a "Nightelf Mohawk" is bound to be a douchey one.
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#154 Aug 02 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


It's not all or nothing. Me off in my little corner playing solo because I think Olorinus is a meanerface and I don't want to group from her doesn't mean your party experience is ruined because I won't join your group. It means I paid my sub and I'm having fun and that's about as far as your nose in my business is going to go. Tanaka's social engineering projects be damned.


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 1:52pm by Aurelius


I am a meanerface.

Smiley: lol

I agree with you completely. I have grown up a bit now and gosh darn it, when I log into my MMO I want to play it, not stand around waiting to play it.

I dunno, it is pretty sad when XI, a decade old game, has come around to being more solo friendly, and XIV, which should have been designed with the mmo players of today in mind, is not.

Yes, it is a multiplayer game, which means, I chat with my friends while playing - and if they want to do what I am doing they join me... but if they don't want to do what I am doing - it sure is great to be able to massacre some random wildlife without having to beg someone for a party to do it with.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#155 Aug 02 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Aurelius wrote:


It's not all or nothing. Me off in my little corner playing solo because I think Olorinus is a meanerface and I don't want to group from her doesn't mean your party experience is ruined because I won't join your group. It means I paid my sub and I'm having fun and that's about as far as your nose in my business is going to go. Tanaka's social engineering projects be damned.


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 1:52pm by Aurelius


I am a meanerface.

Smiley: lol

I agree with you completely. I have grown up a bit now and gosh darn it, when I log into my MMO I want to play it, not stand around waiting to play it.

I dunno, it is pretty sad when XI, a decade old game, has come around to being more solo friendly, and XIV, which should have been designed with the mmo players of today in mind, is not.

Yes, it is a multiplayer game, which means, I chat with my friends while playing - and if they want to do what I am doing they join me... but if they don't want to do what I am doing - it sure is great to be able to massacre some random wildlife without having to beg someone for a party to do it with.


In what way is FFXIV not solo friendly in its current state? I think every job can solo "IT" monsters, and leves are, arguably, much more suited for solo play since leve-sharing only grants your party members 10% of the SP reward for completion.
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#156 Aug 02 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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McCarronXLD wrote:
I think that may be a little off. I've experienced more MMOs that cater to the hardcore than the casual (unfortunately).

Though I do see your point. People whom play FFXI still probably don't want to lose that atmosphere.. it's just hard for me to accept making FFXIV into that. I love FF, but I had to leave FFXI because you just killed yourself with anything you did and got next to nothing out of it, and you had to do all of it in a group. Leveling, gear, it was the longest and hardest grind of my life (even more so than my real life job was) and I hated it. How is it justifiable to camp all day waiting for a HNM, competing with other linkshells, just to get 1 item for 1 person that -may- drop, but likely will not.. or to spend 4 hours clearing Dynamis so that a couple people -may- get what they want.. or just to even level.

Really don't want to never be able to experience a FF MMO because of the grind and inability to do anything meaningful by oneself.. :(


FYI XI isn't like this anymore. I got (arguably) the best DD ring in the game this weekend with my linkshell full of casual players. So did several other people in the LS - in one afternoon (although we spend another day farming KI pop sets).

I still have lots of work to do to get my jobs geared - but the fact of the matter is, normal people with regular jobs who can only play a few times a week in the evening and on weekends etc. can easily get stuff done in the game now.

Some folks complain about it (mostly people who play WAY too much and are mad that people who have lives can get nice gear now), but the truth of the matter is, most people I know LOVE IT. It is FUN to work towards stuff and achieve it - not in six months after many disappointments, but within a week or two.

I won't play XIV unless it heads in the same direction. Exp (especially in a game where there are multiple classes to level on each char to be useful) should not be hard and boring. Nice gear should not only be for people who play 6-10 hours a day.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#157 Aug 02 2011 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:

In what way is FFXIV not solo friendly in its current state? I think every job can solo "IT" monsters, and leves are, arguably, much more suited for solo play since leve-sharing only grants your party members 10% of the SP reward for completion.


Because I don't consider spending 5 minutes soloing a goat for 1/7000th of the exp I need for the next level and then resting my mp for a minute before starting on the next goat "fun"

Soloing shouldn't just be possible - it should be fun and rewarding.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#158 Aug 02 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

In what way is FFXIV not solo friendly in its current state? I think every job can solo "IT" monsters, and leves are, arguably, much more suited for solo play since leve-sharing only grants your party members 10% of the SP reward for completion.


Because I don't consider spending 5 minutes soloing a goat for 1/7000th of the exp I need for the next level and then resting my mp for a minute before starting on the next goat "fun"

Soloing shouldn't just be possible - it should be fun and rewarding.


So what your saying is you still haven't logged in since the update? As a melee job, fighting stuff 10 levels over m head, I still rarely need to rest for mp, and that resting time is maybe 1 minute.

We were farming Kokoroon Quickfingersas 23 Thm, 37 Mrd, and 36 Arc. When the thm ran out of mp (only twice per 15 minute fight) she would rest for 30-40 seconds while I took care of the healing as Arc. So you are saying that when killing NMs stronger than us, we should never have to rest mp? This sounds like you want to make an easy game easier.



Edited, Aug 2nd 2011 2:27pm by Louiscool

Edited, Aug 2nd 2011 2:30pm by Louiscool
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#159 Aug 02 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Default
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I got (arguably) the best DD ring in the game this weekend with my linkshell full of casual players. So did several other people in the LS - in one afternoon (although we spend another day farming KI pop sets).

Seems like a nice ring, but don't the stats conflict with each other? Well, I was a thief when I played so I guess it would only affect them. Just seems counteractive I guess...
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#160 Aug 02 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:

So what your saying is you still haven't logged in since the update? As a melee job, fighting stuff 10 levels over m head, I still rarely need to rest for mp, and that resting time is maybe 1 minute.



Yes, melee jobs would probably have to rest less for MP, considering their damage output doesn't rely on it. I played a mage most of the time.

and whether it takes 1 min or 30 seconds, it is boring to wait for MP to refill. It was boring in old school XI, and it is boring in new school XIV.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#161 Aug 02 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Louiscool wrote:

So what your saying is you still haven't logged in since the update? As a melee job, fighting stuff 10 levels over m head, I still rarely need to rest for mp, and that resting time is maybe 1 minute.



Yes, melee jobs would probably have to rest less for MP, considering their damage output doesn't rely on it. I played a mage most of the time.

and whether it takes 1 min or 30 seconds, it is boring to wait for MP to refill. It was boring in old school XI, and it is boring in new school XIV.



You must be bored a lot of the time in anything outside of Abyssea. You're saying outside of abyssea you can solo your mage without resting?
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#162 Aug 02 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I agree with you completely. I have grown up a bit now and gosh darn it, when I log into my MMO I want to play it, not stand around waiting to play it.

I dunno, it is pretty sad when XI, a decade old game, has come around to being more solo friendly, and XIV, which should have been designed with the mmo players of today in mind, is not.

Yes, it is a multiplayer game, which means, I chat with my friends while playing - and if they want to do what I am doing they join me... but if they don't want to do what I am doing - it sure is great to be able to massacre some random wildlife without having to beg someone for a party to do it with.


In terms of mixing solo and group play in entertaining ways, I hope YoshiP has been keeping a close eye on what Trion is doing with Rift. There are a lot of great ideas in there that could be forward into a game like FFXIV that would liven it up a great deal, though I'd have to say at this point that the framework for that kind of thing is probably miles from practical to implement at this stage of the game. When you realize that a lot of the "spontaneous" open world group possibilities can be made possible simply by altering the way loot is handled and making it easy for players to enable a party UI, I don't see how any serious MMO developer could overlook what is happening in Rift. It's just a question of whether or not they can fit those kinds of mechanics with gameplay opportunities that are worthwhile.
#163 Aug 02 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I agree with you completely. I have grown up a bit now and gosh darn it, when I log into my MMO I want to play it, not stand around waiting to play it.

I dunno, it is pretty sad when XI, a decade old game, has come around to being more solo friendly, and XIV, which should have been designed with the mmo players of today in mind, is not.

Yes, it is a multiplayer game, which means, I chat with my friends while playing - and if they want to do what I am doing they join me... but if they don't want to do what I am doing - it sure is great to be able to massacre some random wildlife without having to beg someone for a party to do it with.


In terms of mixing solo and group play in entertaining ways, I hope YoshiP has been keeping a close eye on what Trion is doing with Rift. There are a lot of great ideas in there that could be forward into a game like FFXIV that would liven it up a great deal, though I'd have to say at this point that the framework for that kind of thing is probably miles from practical to implement at this stage of the game. When you realize that a lot of the "spontaneous" open world group possibilities can be made possible simply by altering the way loot is handled and making it easy for players to enable a party UI, I don't see how any serious MMO developer could overlook what is happening in Rift. It's just a question of whether or not they can fit those kinds of mechanics with gameplay opportunities that are worthwhile.


I can't agree with this more. I really hadn't intended to pickup an MMO again but I played the rift trial due to boredom one day, and I have to say I was blown away with how well the public groups, public quests, rifts and zone invasions were handled. Granted I'm sure its a nightmare for those who want nothing more than their LS buddies and a grind spot for 5 hours a night, its a dream come true for someone who wants the ability to go from solo questing to a 20 person raid for 30-60 minutes, and then back to soloing or whatever else I want 2 minutes later. I should also mention you can do this at pretty much any level.

Edited, Aug 2nd 2011 5:06pm by KujaKoF
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#164 Aug 02 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah good mages can solo outside Abyssea without resting. I have soloed some jailers of sea without resting. Any competent mage can solo "some" things that required full party in normal setups. Due to how strong passive mp regen is and the ease of kiting with no active mode.

Abyssea may make things a bit easier I admit. But actively using skills instead of standing around makes it more fun. There is nothing wrong with allowing us to use more skills and stuff. As long as the enemies you face are balanced in strength as well.
the one thing I wish for XIV as well as XI is tactical gameplay taking precedence over gear. Low quantity or high quantiity of available skills makes no difference. If the skills are not tuned to be unique, tactical, or augment each other.
#166 Aug 02 2011 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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DigitalSingularity wrote:

Yea Rift is just doing amazing things indeed.. Fish heads on humanoid bodies is very clever indeed oh did I already say indeed I meant to say smart yea fish heads on humanoid bodies is very smart oh sigh that did not make sense lets try it again...


You don't have to enjoy the game as a whole to appreciate some of the concept and mechanics they've brought forward. The public grouping system is one of the most simple yet significant features I've seen in an MMO in a long, long time. If you compare the concept of public grouping and massive zone events to (for example) Behest, you realize just what kind of opportunity the FFXIV dev team under Tanaka missed out on.
#167 Aug 03 2011 at 3:36 AM Rating: Default
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DigitalSingularity wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I agree with you completely. I have grown up a bit now and gosh darn it, when I log into my MMO I want to play it, not stand around waiting to play it.

I dunno, it is pretty sad when XI, a decade old game, has come around to being more solo friendly, and XIV, which should have been designed with the mmo players of today in mind, is not.

Yes, it is a multiplayer game, which means, I chat with my friends while playing - and if they want to do what I am doing they join me... but if they don't want to do what I am doing - it sure is great to be able to massacre some random wildlife without having to beg someone for a party to do it with.


In terms of mixing solo and group play in entertaining ways, I hope YoshiP has been keeping a close eye on what Trion is doing with Rift. There are a lot of great ideas in there that could be forward into a game like FFXIV that would liven it up a great deal, though I'd have to say at this point that the framework for that kind of thing is probably miles from practical to implement at this stage of the game. When you realize that a lot of the "spontaneous" open world group possibilities can be made possible simply by altering the way loot is handled and making it easy for players to enable a party UI, I don't see how any serious MMO developer could overlook what is happening in Rift. It's just a question of whether or not they can fit those kinds of mechanics with gameplay opportunities that are worthwhile.



Yea Rift is just doing amazing things indeed.. Fish heads on humanoid bodies is very clever indeed oh did I already say indeed I meant to say smart yea fish heads on humanoid bodies is very smart oh sigh that did not make sense lets try it again...


Better than toddlers... wish reminds me to as the question, whoever designed the taru..... is he a pedophile ?
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#168 Aug 03 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:


You don't have to enjoy the game as a whole to appreciate some of the concept and mechanics they've brought forward. The public grouping system is one of the most simple yet significant features I've seen in an MMO in a long, long time. If you compare the concept of public grouping and massive zone events to (for example) Behest, you realize just what kind of opportunity the FFXIV dev team under Tanaka missed out on.


Yeah, I've been saying this for a while. Originally that's how I thought Behests worked. I thought you would just talk to the battlewarden and everyone would be placed in a "group." Ugh.

In Warhammer public grouping existed, what, like 4 years ago, and it was awesome then. Rift just made it that much better.
#169 Aug 03 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Double Post...

Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 11:08am by Kierk
#170 Aug 03 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
While I want to believe FFXI had a better community, I just believe that every mmo has scores of greedy little know-it-all's who bark orders, steal drops, and whine like babies when things don't go their way.

FFXI just saw much fewer asshats through the law of averages. Percentages were probably the same but the pool you pull from was much smaller due to WoW being a much more popular game with a marketing campaign with Mr. T in it. The player who feels an affinity with a "Nightelf Mohawk" is bound to be a douchey one.


I actually felt an affinity with the commercial, and mostly because I grew up watching the A Team. I've always been a big fan of Mr. T. I'm guessing it was probably before you were even born, though.

What is it you have against him, and the marketing campaign in general? WoW already was in the multi-millions before that ad hit the television.

As far as your general opinion on people - that's why we all have choices. You can choose not to play with me if you think I am a greedy, drop-stealing, whiny douche just because I happen to be a fan of Mr. T and his hair. I can also choose to surround myself with folks who are mature enough to judge people by their actions and personality rather than generalize based on some inferiority complex on your part. We all have choices. If you don't like someone, play with someone else. Nobody is forcing everyone to get along, and some people just don't.

I *think* I understood your point, but frankly you take every opportunity to take a shot at WoW when it isn't even warranted that I wonder if you can look at ANYTHING objectively and have a meaningful dialogue about it.
#171 Aug 03 2011 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
While I want to believe FFXI had a better community, I just believe that every mmo has scores of greedy little know-it-all's who bark orders, steal drops, and whine like babies when things don't go their way.

FFXI just saw much fewer asshats through the law of averages. Percentages were probably the same but the pool you pull from was much smaller due to WoW being a much more popular game with a marketing campaign with Mr. T in it. The player who feels an affinity with a "Nightelf Mohawk" is bound to be a douchey one.


I actually felt an affinity with the commercial, and mostly because I grew up watching the A Team. I've always been a big fan of Mr. T. I'm guessing it was probably before you were even born, though.

/snip


It was a joke... And I watched the A-team as a kid as well. I thought the commercial was funny.
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#172 Aug 03 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:


It was a joke... And I watched the A-team as a kid as well. I thought the commercial was funny.


Then I apologize. It just looked like another jab at an irrelevant topic. I bet if we went through this thread 85% would be you me, and Aur cross quoting each other all over it.
#173 Aug 04 2011 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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Filth is pretty much spot on. A better worded version of what I was going to say and I couldn't agree more so thank you for this post.

I would also like to point out that whether you consider yourself 'hardcore' or 'casual' you play the game to entertain yourself. I see the problem in WoW (yes, I'm going to bring WoW into this primarily because they are the largest MMO out there to date and have the most weight in this field) where people feel like it's their job to _______. Level a toon, level a profession, down a certain boss. That's bringing players back to the game, but on some degree the game is no longer fun.

I actually find the leveling to be quite relaxing with FFXIV. It's not some mad dash to level cap, grinding out countless levels and dungeons each day.

In answer to the original question "Can they co-exist" yes! They can!

Casual players will always have something to do. They complain that they can't solo the game's content, but it's possible. If you have a hard time with a quest, you can go level a profession, get your level up a bit and try again. Linkshells also make it possible to ask for help if you need it -- I'm a part of a pretty casual linkshell where people are generally willing to help out.

Hardcore players have their endgame content, their shiny equipment and impressive levels.

The game is still essentially brand new people. Square Enix can't really afford losing one or the other and it's more than possible to appease both crowds (who, like in WoW, will QQ no matter what the outcome so...). It's all about your perception of the game and how you choose to play it.

Edited, Aug 4th 2011 3:26am by Ezno
#174 Aug 04 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:


You must be bored a lot of the time in anything outside of Abyssea. You're saying outside of abyssea you can solo your mage without resting?


I haven't been playing mages outside of abyssea other than leveling up in GoV alliances and getting my blu spells. And I don't see myself playing mages much outside of abyssea.

I took my whm to 66 in GoV and got it to 87 now healing in Abyssea with 15 mp/tic atma refresh +convert +casting refresh on myself.

My BLU is 58 and other than getting spells, I play in GoV alliances with book refresh, tons of temp items, and I am leveling so fast that I rest maybe once every hour or two for a minute while I go pee or grab a drink.

I do have to rest while I am spell hunting but I gotta wait for repops a lot of the time anyway, and I find spell hunting enjoyable enough that I don't mind.

Also frigging BST can get like 7/tic or so gear refresh now - and mages get even more options. I don't have a great refresh gear set yet, but there are a lot more pieces out there now.

/shrugs

So no, I am not bored, because XI's dev team seems to have generally woken up to the fact that watching your MP bar refill is boring. God, melee players would never accept having to stand around waiting after each battle for TP to fill up before they could do anything but basic attack. Why should mages be treated differently?

Edited, Aug 4th 2011 3:16pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#175 Aug 04 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Louiscool wrote:


You must be bored a lot of the time in anything outside of Abyssea. You're saying outside of abyssea you can solo your mage without resting?


I haven't been playing mages outside of abyssea other than leveling up in GoV alliances and getting my blu spells. And I don't see myself playing mages much outside of abyssea.

I took my whm to 66 in GoV and got it to 87 now healing in Abyssea with 15 mp/tic atma refresh +convert +casting refresh on myself.

My BLU is 58 and other than getting spells, I play in GoV alliances with book refresh, tons of temp items, and I am leveling so fast that I rest maybe once every hour or two for a minute while I go pee or grab a drink.

I do have to rest while I am spell hunting but I gotta wait for repops a lot of the time anyway, and I find spell hunting enjoyable enough that I don't mind.

Also frigging BST can get like 7/tic or so gear refresh now - and mages get even more options. I don't have a great refresh gear set yet, but there are a lot more pieces out there now.

/shrugs

So no, I am not bored, because XI's dev team seems to have generally woken up to the fact that watching your MP bar refill is boring. God, melee players would never accept having to stand around waiting after each battle for TP to fill up before they could do anything but basic attack. Why should mages be treated differently?


Ok wait... I need a time out here..

I came back to 14 shortly after GoV was introduced but never go really into it. Are you saying they made it... good? It wasn't fully established within the community as viable and just seemed like a solo alternative for FoVs. Sorry to derail... but I'm intrigued because while Abyssea is great, it also took out my favorite part of FFXI which is the rest of the world.

Edited, Aug 4th 2011 10:21pm by Louiscool
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#176 Aug 11 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played FFXI on and off 3 different times (all 3 times up to lev 43 on RDM). The reason that was as far as I went was because of the early leveling areas with little LFP bubbles above your head and casting spells in chains to skill them up (for summoner :) and getting into some crazy parties (and bad ones) and staying up till 2am. At 43 it got sooo serious I started not having fun so I would quit and come back and start it all over again lol. I started FFXIV on day one with a friend that lasted about a week. I played on and off solo till I finally made a desktop so I could give my aging laptop a rest and playing solo (for me anyhoo) has been not fun, it was at first because I really like the game but it feels like a console with the lack of any public chat. My 2 cents is a choice of a global chat for loners. Myself I don't like the solo play at all anymore and I really miss the random groupings of FFXI. My char is Cosmic Mantra on Rabanastre and I'm lookin for an LS cause it seems like the only way to have some fun the way things are.
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#177 Aug 11 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I feel the need to reply to this thread briefly.

For anyone drawing comparisons between WoW and FF communities and gameplay - I really don't think anyone claiming WoW had/has a better community then FFXI is being honest about it.

I've played on several different WoW servers (and I still play WoW to this day) and manage a guild with my significant other (the GM) and no matter where I have gone - I have found the community to be absolutely terrible.

Maybe I was blessed on Midgardsormr and then Quetz - but the amount of disgusting content I see in WoW is like comparing an ocean to a fish pond. FFXI had idiots and jerks - or loot drama, HNM griefing, whatever - but nothing compared to all the racist, derogatory and sheer amount of trash that I see in WoW everytime I log in.

In addition to that - you don't see people looking for help with quests, missions, etc in WoW (besides pugging, but that's non-existant on my server) - Trade Chat is filling up the max capacity and spamming by with trolls, people linking stupid items or linking [****] abilities for hours on end. . And I am on one of the LOWEST population WoW servers in the game and it's barely tolerable at times (until I shut off trade) - where as FFXI I never ignored a single person for any reason ever.

The WoW community has severely disintigrated since the implementation of the LFG/LFD systems and cross-realm everything. Nobody cares anymore - people ninja, drop in the middle of fights, leave group without warning, join queues just to drop upon entering immediately (tanks) to annoy people, etc. I am blessed to have an amazing guild of mature folks who have suffered very few issues over the past few years as we've grown, lost and raided together - but the amount of crap I see in WoW everyday is unparalelled. There's no consequences in WoW - people rarely get banned permanently - and making a Level 1 alt to troll Trade is commonplace. I've reported people going OFF with racism in WoW Trade Chat - multiple people commenting on someone getting reported - and the person is back a few hours later (if ever leaving at all) repeating the same thing. The Community management takes things very seriously I'm sure - but nobody can expect them to manage the sheer volume of things on an individual basis - they just hand out hand slaps unless you do something major like crash a server (Swifty's guild, if anyone follows) and even THEN they retreat with their bans on folks later on due to popular demand.

There's just no accountability in WoW - and the new systems they make and design that cater to "instant" everything just facilitate that kind of behavior.

WoW doesn't even create an experience to socialize anymore - I barely ever meet random folks in WoW and go off and do an amazing party, tackle a NM in the open field or help out with something (coffers, AF, missions, etc) - it's just all instant this, instant that - new raid content, kill boss, new boss. A receipe for success when it comes to appeasing folks - but not everyone.
My first day back to FFXIV was Sunday - and I was doing Rank20s at Horizon when someone was like "I cannot kill these Raiders and Footpads, can someone help?" And it was my (just about, definitely my first 'difficult') first experience with the new everything since the last time I played - and it was an amazing social experience and the gameplay was exciting. I made a friend randomly and we did **** for two hours on a whim.

I played FFXI since NA release on Midgardsormr on my PS2 - I played WoW since TBC release - so that's accounting for my personal experience.

In my experience in FFXI - the worst things I ever dealt with were some rude people in parties, a little trade chat [Subligar] nonsense and the occasional loot drama unfolding from the HNM folks.

I haven't played FFXI since about the time of the first level-cap up - maybe a lot has changed or something - but WoW continues to attract the kind of people that I never miss when I'm playing a FFXIV game.

Now I'm not saying the examples I give are the end all be all - they are far from that - I'm just offering my sole opinion on the matter.

As for the topic of the original post I feel FFXIV -has- made a dramatic change in it's structure. The game feels completely different since I played in the pre-release 'release' (beta's beta?) and battles felt fluid, challenging (had a few good deaths to aggro, hitting multiple things with Scourge and the like - and didn't realize I can Resurrect friends now either!) and for the most part - fun. I took THM from 17 to 22 (or just short, cannot remember) and participated in the Rank15 Mission Quest, THM20 Quest and did some random quests around town - it was a very nice experience. Took GLD to 10 as well to test out a Melee and found it very fun (I tank in WoW, so I figured GLD would be a good place to start for my melee stuff) as I killed mobs for about 218-370ish SP per kill. Granted I know I probably wont be able to do that forever - or at the same pace - but it was fun then and that's what counts for me.

Knowing that more changes to continue to tweak and smooth out the rough edges left by the 1.18 overhaul - and continue to add, adapt and grow content - I might find myself spending a bit more time in FFXIV in the coming days.
#178 Aug 11 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
I feel the need to reply to this thread briefly.


Oh, you.

Look, everyone has different experiences with games and that's what makes us all unique as individuals. However, we have to stop drawing comparisons between the two communities because we are losing sight of what's important.

For every [****] conversation in trade over in WoW there was an equally offensive Auto-translate Galkan Sausage **** joke conversation. There is no difference between the communities except the numbers of people. Does that mean that you see offensive things more often? It sure does. Does that mean that overall they are worse than we are? Nope, just that we are in our little bubble and want to pretend that somehow we are better people because our laundry isn't aired on as large a scale.




Edited, Aug 11th 2011 5:53pm by Torrence
#179 Aug 11 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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I was going to respond until I saw this:

Quote:
1,337 posts


I obviously have no defense against such a 1337 post. :D

Ahem.

I agree with you Torrence except on one part - the communities are in fact different. Regardless of that however - I would like to direct attention to the more 'on topic' part of my post in-line with the OP's thought process (or in my opinion, what you'd call "what's important"):

The FFXIV game is changing for the better. I am thoroughly impressed at the changes thus far and eagerly await the rest.
#180 Aug 12 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
I really don't think anyone claiming WoW had/has a better community then FFXI is being honest about it.


No one has claimed that the WoW community is better than FFXI. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Maybe you should go back to review, but for the most part it was XI players claiming that anyone who plays WoW is immature. It only seems that way because there are roughly 100 people who play WoW for every XI player.

EmotionBlues wrote:
Trade Chat is filling up the max capacity and spamming by with trolls, people linking stupid items or linking [****] abilities for hours on end.

You have the ability to block chat in WoW just like in XI. You might be surprised how well it works. If the chat bothers you, disable the channel until you need to use it to advertise, get something crafted or whatever your need.

You can't blame game mechanics like LFG for people acting stupid either. If they were going to ninja, log mid-fight or generally be an asshat then they would do it with or without this feature. It was made to get people entering dungeons quickly and it serves its purpose. What was the purpose of open world NMs on long, lottery respawns? To make XI players compete with each other and argue? To allow RMT to bot and monopolize them? To have players trying to MPK and force wipes? Obviously not, but these are all side effects of players exploiting mechanics. It happens in every game. XI is no different.


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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#181 Aug 12 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You have the ability to block chat in WoW just like in XI. You might be surprised how well it works. If the chat bothers you, disable the channel until you need to use it to advertise, get something crafted or whatever your need.


And...

Quote:
it's barely tolerable at times (until I shut off trade) - where as FFXI I never ignored a single person for any reason ever.


I don't think you can tell someone to go back and review something when it's clear you either didn't read the previous post yourself or just decided to be a jerk of your own accord.

And just above your post - I conceded the same facts you're pointing out [again] to Torrence and attempted to redirect the thread towards it's original topic because my points had already been refuted and I accepted a differing opinion.

My point about the LFD system was about the degredation of community, socialization/social accountability and how that compares between the two gaming communities, as illustrated:

Quote:
There's just no accountability in WoW - and the new systems they make and design that cater to "instant" everything just facilitate that kind of behavior.


I never said adverse behavior was non-existant in FFXI - and I also said this was purely based on MY EXPERIENCE - not anyone else's. My WoW server has a population smaller then the peak population of Midgardsormr and possibly even the post-merger population.

If you want to argue the finer points - enjoy yourself and PM me, but I already conceded and tried to get back on track for this thread.
#182 Aug 12 2011 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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I read your post EmotionBlues, but you kind of defeated your own point. You prefaced with...
Quote:
I really don't think anyone claiming WoW had/has a better community then FFXI is being honest about it.

but no one here stated that WoW has a better community. It was the XI community taking jabs at WoW and not the other way around. Everyone here who has played WoW will agree that trade spam gets ridiculous at times, but anyone who would consider themselves part of the community has this chat channel blocked. Obvious reason is obvious.
Quote:
...it's clear you either didn't read the previous post yourself or just decided to be a jerk of your own accord.

Namecalling... good form.
Quote:
My point about the LFD system was about the degredation of community, socialization/social accountability and how that compares between the two gaming communities

I read your post, but these ideas are not related. A person who is an *** in WoW doesn't have any less chance of being an *** in XI simply because there is no dungeon finder or any other game mechanic for that matter. Don't take it personal, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

The only way to attach any accountability is to remove the anonymous aspect from MMO games. The only way people are going to be less likely to do things they wouldn't normally do face-to-face is to display their picture and physical address instead of a pixelated avatar and their coordinates on a map in an imaginary world. There is no accountability with anonymity.





____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#183 Aug 12 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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I agree completely Emo. I have had very simular experiences as you've had with these games. And it's amazing that it doesn't matter what you say on a forum or chat channel, even if it's 2+2=4 ten people will argue to the death with you that you're wrong. Eve online has been getting bombarded with Wow expats and the help channel on that game is turning into kiddie vulgar chat but they have 2 things that are great for combatting that, gm's that surf the help channel and eject kids that just type in swears AND you have an unlimited block list. What good is block if it fills up the first day lol. A realm wide chat channel that is randomly cruised by gm's and an unlimited block list and kiddie chat be gone.
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#184 Aug 12 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
What if there was a /party Chat Channel?

Then you wouldn't have to actually BE in Ul'dah to see parties forming. If I understand correctly, the problem with /global or /trade chat cahnnels is spam?
#185 Aug 12 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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SmashingtonWho wrote:
What if there was a /party Chat Channel?

Then you wouldn't have to actually BE in Ul'dah to see parties forming. If I understand correctly, the problem with /global or /trade chat cahnnels is spam?

The problem is people being annoying, rude, obnoxious, vulgar...ect.

XIV doesn't have a /party chat function already?

Maybe you meant a /lfg chat channel? I could see a benefit to having a channel that people could add themselves to when they're looking for a group. Not at all sure why it wasn't added to XIV if it wasn't...
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#186 Aug 12 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
Yes, that's what I mean. A /lfg chat channel. Something that's global, and easily toggled off.
#187 Aug 12 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
Auto-translate Galkan Sausage **** joke conversation.


{I'm playing alone right now}
{jerkin} {Galkan sausauge}
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#188 Aug 12 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
{Mithra} {Hand} {Job}
{Can I have it?}
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#189 Aug 12 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Auto-translate Galkan Sausage **** joke conversation.


{I'm playing alone right now}
{jerkin} {Galkan sausauge}


(| Um... |)(| /random |)(| rear |)(| entrance |), (| anything |)(| I'll take it |)(| please |)(| Help me out! |) (| Reward: |)(| Silence |)

What was this thread about again...?
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#190 Aug 13 2011 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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Did you even play 1.18 extensively?

Leveling
If you do all 8 leves you will usually net about 1/2 level from my experience w/o guardian aspect. So since the grind really doesn't start till about 30 you have 20 ranks to gain. That means you need 40 leve resets, which is exactly 60, days to go from 30 to 50 doing only leves. Not only that but you can sit down and grind out 24 leves almost 2 times a week. This is your casual play, there is nothing wrong with solo. The hardcore players can grind out 20-50 in 10 days with the removal of the fatique system so that is their option.

Dungeons
There are various degrees of difficulty in both dungeons that can appease both hardcore and causal gamers. Casual gamers can farm chest for gear/sp until they feel they are ready to take on the boss. Even if they fail they were still provided with multiple options to get new gear. Mid-core can go for bosses and hard core can aim for timed chest completion.

If this patch did anything it was show how they can appease both crowds, not separate them.

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