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Mages & Melee Can Stop The QQ'sFollow

#1 Jul 27 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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Mages(More specifically CON) need to simmer down. Why?

FFXI Tarutaru Mage (No Gear/Buffs)
Level: 50
Total MP: 585

Cure: 8 (% of Total MP: 1.3%)
Cure II: 24 (% of Total MP: 4.1%)
Cure III: 46 (% of Total MP: 7.9%)

Curaga: 60 (% of Total MP: 10.3%)
Curaga II: 120 (% of Total MP: 20.5%)

MP/10 seconds: 21-65 (4 minutes total to get all mp back)

FFXIV Anything (No Gear/Buffs, 85 Mind)
Level: 46 (me currently)
MP: 1001

Cure: 45(% of Total MP: 4.5%)
Cure II: 75 (% of Total MP: 7.5%)
Cure III: 135 (% of Total MP: 13.5%)

Curaga: 112 (% of Total MP: 11.1%)
Curaga II: 187 (% of Total MP: 18.7%)

I get 9mp every 4 seconds. Total "heal" time to get full mp: 444 seconds, ~7.5 minutes (almost double mp)

Curaga's are basically the same in terms of how many you can pull off from full mp to zero, no QQ about it.

Regular cure's I give the fact that hey, it costs more on % based but I've never run out of MP considering I get a convert (with no hp loss) every 9 minutes and I can melee to gain tp for MP drain moves, I have siphon mp. LOVE IT.

That and having two con's in a part and thm is a good idea anyway, our group always ran that way and than we could DD, so until BLM gets released and people change there play styles, learn to play the game they way the dev's are making it because if you remember, almost the entire community agreed on the OFFICIAL poll, that we would accept a radical/complete change.

BIG NOTE:
Don't forget they will be making it so we can cast while in passive mode in one of the upcoming updates... so... casting + passive mode = regen mp at same time o.O

Melee/General:
From lodestone forums:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/18233-1.18-Wipe-your-tears-and-open-your-eyes!

Quote:
1.18: Wipe your tears and open your eyes!

Patch 1.18 came with fixes - not game-breakers. I spent a decent amount of time reading and participating in all these threads suggesting that the game is broken, and things are not working.

I just thought I'd compile some of my contributions to the various topics in said threads:

Enmity is not broken. It is different. The change is well done. Tanks just need to adjust and learn to effectively gain hate with this new system instead of trying to do what used to work in the old system and asserting the system is broken when that doesn't work...
Quote:

Quote Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra View Post
Equip any of the following that you have:

Intimidation - this one goes without saying.
Accomplice - use on any healer that grabs hate, and make liberal use of it on the healers of your party throughout the battle to consistently reduce their hate and increase your own.
Cure/Sacrifice II/III - Start the fight with you taking care of your own healing, using tier 2/3 heals so you grab the massive hate generated by heals. When your MP gets low the mages can take over, but by then you'll already have a headstart on hate amount.

Make sure everyone lays off [the target] for [the beginning of the fight, briefly] allowing you to secure a good amount of hate.


I myself tank on PGL, and will admit that at first I wasn't able to hold hate well at all. I pride myself on being a quick learner and adapting to change well. Even prior to playing the game after the patch, while just reading the notes I knew my old tanking strategies were not going to cut it. I knew with this new cumulative enmity system, my strategy was to shift from a method of holding hate, to one of accumulating hate. Once I made some changes to my routine, and swapped around some skills I was holding hate at least as well as before 1.18. Add to this how the rest of the team can now monitor their enmity levels and adjust accordingly, and hate management is much more... manageable now.

Another popular topic of QQ is Archers - apparently they've been nerfed...

Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra View Post
Archer has not been nerfed at all. It only incurred the loss of being able to nock 2 arrows back to back via Multishot, which was not a desirable thing to do mid-battle anyway and served more of a preparation purpose for opening with a burst on the next target while running. The stamina cost was just large for 1, let alone 2 arrows to be nocked... which meant you were waiting instead of shooting some more.

Now with the abolition of the stamina system, Multishot can be prepped right away for a FREE double shot via Light Shot OR Foeseeker with a damage buff (did you guys honestly miss that buff?) since it costs nothing to nock an arrow.

Add to that the ability to use Invigorate, Chameleon, Decoy, Scouring Strike, Still Precision and various other ARC staple skills that used to cost lots of stamina instantly now...

Archer got a buff with 1.18. Anyone that argues otherwise is kidding themselves.

EDIT: Bloodletter, considered the best DPS weaponskill in the game, is now Archer only? The utility of Archer as a DD has increased. C'mon guys, the answer lies in the details.


Even after an edit I still see I forgot to add Trifurcate in there. Another skill that used to cost a lot of stamina, but can now be used instantly with no change to it's cooldown. It was always the preferred way to store 3 arrows mid-fight, and now it's free due to lack of stamina too.

The thing is, 1.18 changed the game... a lot. It was a major patch. The real issue here is it seems to be "too much, too fast" for a lot of players. SE can't just slow things down and ease players into this game's new direction any more than they do. They've got a serious deadline to keep or else this game is not likely to succeed. It's not like the devs haven't told us time and time again how many things are going to change with these upcoming patches - 1.18 being just the beginning.

There are going to be players who keep up to change and enjoy where the game is headed, and there are going to be players who fail to adapt or don't agree with where the game is headed and they will quit. It's a necessary part of change.

Let's just not confuse an inability or unwillingness to adapt with a broken game mechanic. Broken game mechanics are broken for everyone.

Finally,

Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra View Post
By far my favorite part of this patch is how amazingly efficient it is in filtering out players who can adapt to a new challenge and determine the most effective way to do their job in very short amount of time from the players who do not like to escape their comfort zone because they believed they used to be so good, but now they can't play as effectively and thus believe the game must be broken.

Even within my circle of friends and shell-mates I now have a new appreciation for a handful of them that showed exceptional skill in the dungeons these last few nights.


We as a community must embrace this new, challenging, and incredibly fun game we have been given. We must keep our criticisms constructive, and not fall into the trap of ranting/whining about personal opinions/feelings and confusing them for game shortcomings or flaws.

Despite all of the sincere efforts of the constructive members of our community to assist everyone in catching up, and to prove with videos, screenshots, tips & tricks, and strategies that there is very little wrong with the changes brought by patch 1.18 if anyone still feels the need to complain/rant/whine... all I can say is:


At this time I still don't find it difficult to heal in a party. It's actually more fun this way IMHO.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 11:00am by Elionara
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#2 Jul 27 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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/bow


rate up!
#3 Jul 27 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Siphon MP every chance you get on CORPSES not living mobs for max MP return, use the half MP stance if you aren't running around, use Stygian Spikes just before you plan on pulling hate (or when solo)...

Same tactics apply for melee with the exception of the MP stance thingy
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#4 Jul 27 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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As an archer I can agree with all of that.

But are archers really crying? I haven't noticed. Seriously, auto attack has made archer stand out even more. I was partying last night and I had to hold back just to make the party fun for the other members.

I would pull with 1-2 arrows nocked + raging strike + Blindside as 32 archer on 42 Bucaneers and they would lost 1/3rd hp
get to camp, tank tries to take hate ,can't so I unload my 2k+ tp on it, trifuricate raging strike and it's dead.

Other members couldn't even get enough tp for a ws so I just started pulling with a normal shot and then dropping bombs at the 50% hp mark and it made the party more fun for everyone else.

Then I changed to Lnc and it just felt so slow. So I do feel like there's a nerf incoming in 1.19 when they abolish the physical levels. Probably in the form of stat decreases, maybe make us much more fragile.
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#5 Jul 27 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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As someone who also thinks that the magic class changes are not as game destroying as some people seem to think, I'm afraid to say that this argument is unfortunately invalid. Analyzing the cost/cast values of each spell individually is an incomplete comparison due to the fundamental differences in design schema. FFXI is an MMO designed around Party vs. One gameplay. Between monsters having fewer AoE attacks and only fighting one monster at a time, you have to also take into account the rate of casting. FFXI may have had equal or even more expensive spells, but you did not need to cast them as often rendering this analysis inaccurate.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 2:03pm by Hulan
#6 Jul 27 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
As someone who also thinks that the magic class changes are not as game destroying as some people seem to think, I'm afraid to say that this argument is unfortunately invalid. Analyzing the cost/cast values of each spell individually is an incomplete comparison due to the fundamental differences in design schema. FFXI is an MMO designed around Party vs. One gameplay. Between monsters having fewer AoE attacks and only fighting one monster at a time, you have to also take into account the rate of casting. FFXI may have had equal or even more expensive spells, but you did not need to cast them as often rendering this analysis inaccurate.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 2:03pm by Hulan


Melees also didn't have access to so many self-healing abilities, which should soak up some of the damage
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#7 Jul 27 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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True enough. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that making such a comparison is complicated to the point of not being worth attempting it. Not to mention how well WHMs could keep up with damage in FFXI also varied from party to party, level to level. I would say the problem here isn't whether you can heal without having MP problems such much as whether Conjurers are willing to put up with that style of play; which, it sounds to me like a lot of them are not (granted, as a non-conjurer, I think I'll bow out of this discussion now as it is not really my place to speak for them [especially since I personally like the changes]).
#8 Jul 27 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
As someone who also thinks that the magic class changes are not as game destroying as some people seem to think, I'm afraid to say that this argument is unfortunately invalid. Analyzing the cost/cast values of each spell individually is an incomplete comparison due to the fundamental differences in design schema. FFXI is an MMO designed around Party vs. One gameplay. Between monsters having fewer AoE attacks and only fighting one monster at a time, you have to also take into account the rate of casting. FFXI may have had equal or even more expensive spells, but you did not need to cast them as often rendering this analysis inaccurate.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 2:03pm by Hulan


And to counter the AOE gameplay differences is that is that everyone has the ability to heal themselves better in FFXIV than in FFXI. Its just a different animal. The game model(as it is right now) is not really designed to have one full time healer like in FFXI.
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#9 Jul 27 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
Mages & Melee Can Stop The QQ's
Is this your first MMORPG?
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#10 Jul 27 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elionara wrote:
Mages & Melee Can Stop The QQ's
Is this your first MMORPG?

But, but, if they're QQing it's silly, if we're doing it, it's righteous anger.
#11 Jul 27 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elionara wrote:
Mages & Melee Can Stop The QQ's
Is this your first MMORPG?

FFXI (7 years)
GuildWars (4 years)
WoW (5 days)
Rift (~1hour)
Aion (6 months)
Forsaken/Perfect World (1 day)
LOTRO (7 days)
Age of Conan (20 minutes after the naked booby effect wore off)

I've played enough to know what I like and don't like and what makes a good game (for me)

I'm also sad you didn't have a picture in your massive collection to go along with this thread :P (something new hehehe)

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 12:00pm by Elionara
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Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
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#12 Jul 27 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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That comparison is worthless.
No one in XI plays naked, and there is far more MP gear in XI than in XIV.
You've also forgotten that refresh is a constant in XI, be it latent in someway (situation/sigil etc/zone- bonus) gear supplied, or from another player (brd/cor/rdm etc).
You can not correlate MP in XI to MP in XIV.
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#13 Jul 27 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
I get 9mp every 4 seconds. Total "heal" time to get full mp: 444 seconds, ~7.5 minutes (almost double mp)
I get 5mp/tic running around, 17mp/tic standing still on 43 Archer with 100 Mind. I'm sure it's more on mages.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 3:01pm by Kirby
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#14 Jul 27 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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@Elionara you played Rift for 55 minutes to many lol. I alpha/betaed that game they were looking to make Wowhammer from jump lol

If FFXIV wasn't free I probably wouldn't play it even with the fixes thus far. It is a grind for grinds sake game. I do however like the storylines and most cut scenes. I play it mostly because it isn't one of the many brainless games out there. There is a bit of intellect involved in this game. I'm in no hurry here to get to max level like most games because....well...there is no end game really.

I am old and have played every game out there pretty much and alpha/betaed many as well not tooting my own horn just getting rid of the "fulla ****" sentiment some seem to have if you don't have some kinda game Cred lol...did I just type that? lol

UI in this game remains rather horrid way to much button pushing for what should be point n click. I hate changing gear while harvesting! I say if I have the gear it should auto load. I shouldn't have to stop gear up and then harvest. it is annoying and doesn't have to be. I could go on but I'm sure this is no secret to you people.

As far as QQ I play a CON and I have no problem (other than the battle mechanics themselves being clunky)playing it prior or after patch.I have played far worse classes in other games so this is definitely not a gamebreaker. I play on Karnak it's pretty dead there as I imagine most the other servers are. I play in the evenings mostly looking for yet another LS I outplayed 8 LS lol. 32 CON "Conkuur Dox" if you speak english well then shoot me a invite.If not just say hello I will respond.
#15 Jul 27 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Simool wrote:

And to counter the AOE gameplay differences is that is that everyone has the ability to heal themselves better in FFXIV than in FFXI. Its just a different animal. The game model(as it is right now) is not really designed to have one full time healer like in FFXI.


And I'm not convinced this is going to be the best way to go. There's better ways to handle the problems with solo vs party play progress than flat out rendering some classes obsolete by making self healing OP.

Things like increasing xp for EP and more leves in true FoV style would work better than allowing an amount of self healing on classes that lets them take on enemies 10+ ranks above their level.





#16 Jul 27 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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wtf does QQ mean?
#17 Jul 27 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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nickonline wrote:
wtf does QQ mean?



That they're crying. It's derogatory so it's meant to suggest that someone's complaining is unjustified.

It's used because just as :) can be seen as a smiley face, QQ under certain text fonts can look like two eyes with tears.
#18 Jul 27 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Default
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Sephrick wrote:
nickonline wrote:
wtf does QQ mean?



That they're crying. It's derogatory so it's meant to suggest that someone's complaining is unjustified.

It's used because just as :) can be seen as a smiley face, QQ under certain text fonts can look like two eyes with tears.


O.O
Ha... I didn't even think complaints are unjustified which is why I put in that lodestone post to "wipe the tears away" :)

I know we don't have "refresh" per say, but I'm still not finding an issue using different party dynamics than what we were use to in XI.

2 con, 1 thm, gla and any other random's make an all around great party experience :)
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#19 Jul 27 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
nickonline wrote:
wtf does QQ mean?



That they're crying. It's derogatory so it's meant to suggest that someone's complaining is unjustified.

It's used because just as :) can be seen as a smiley face, QQ under certain text fonts can look like two eyes with tears.


O.O
Ha... I didn't even think complaints are unjustified which is why I put in that lodestone post to "wipe the tears away" :)

I know we don't have "refresh" per say, but I'm still not finding an issue using different party dynamics than what we were use to in XI.

2 con, 1 thm, gla and any other random's make an all around great party experience :)


Well I didn't mean directly you were being negative in anyway. I was just explaining the reason behind the emoticon.

I do think people jumped the gun to judge what was released in 1.18, as it's a portion of a larger package. But SE also could have quelled the storm by releasing what they did with information about why. Certainly it all ties into a bigger picture, likely relating to the job system -- but all we as players know is what we have on our screens.



And back in my day, chocobos warked.

Edited, Jul 27th 2011 8:06pm by Sephrick
#20 Jul 27 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sephrick wrote:
nickonline wrote:
wtf does QQ mean?



That they're crying. It's derogatory so it's meant to suggest that someone's complaining is unjustified.

It's used because just as :) can be seen as a smiley face, QQ under certain text fonts can look like two eyes with tears.


I thought QQ originated from Warcraft II, where pressing Alt+Q+Q quits you from the match and the game respectively. QQ originally means rage-quitting essentially. It has mutated into crying and whining because QQ looks like a pair of crying eyes.
#21 Jul 28 2011 at 4:01 AM Rating: Default
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Still, as a melee that wants to cure himself, i need to take 375 damage from stygian spikes in order to get enough MP for a Cure II. Which in turn only recovers 250 HP. So instead of previously not having to worry much about MP, i'm spend in 5 casts now, or 7~8 casts if Stygian Spikes recovers MP. This used to be 15 up to fairly endless.

Us melee's dont get much effective means of getting MP back. We dont have the MND for mp recovery nor the PIE for syphons. So it's kinda solo unfriendly for us.
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#22 Jul 28 2011 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, give it week or two to see if people can alter their play habits to meet the new demands. I don't think its as bad as some of the more vocal naysayers think it is, but I also think that you're comparing apples to oranges here.

If the 50% or more people who play can adapt and do well, then the system is fine. If not, then it needs to be looked at more closely.
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#23 Jul 28 2011 at 4:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
Still, as a melee that wants to cure himself, i need to take 375 damage from stygian spikes in order to get enough MP for a Cure II. Which in turn only recovers 250 HP. So instead of previously not having to worry much about MP, i'm spend in 5 casts now, or 7~8 casts if Stygian Spikes recovers MP. This used to be 15 up to fairly endless.

Us melee's dont get much effective means of getting MP back. We dont have the MND for mp recovery nor the PIE for syphons. So it's kinda solo unfriendly for us.

Personally I run around with 40 MND because the early points are cheap and the extra MP, spell defense and cure potency are quite handy. Cure II heals well over 300 for me IIRC.

Still, melee isn't supposed to be able to self-heal for an extended period of time. It would be pretty dumb if Stygian Spikes consistently returned more MP than is required to replenish the lost HP as that'd just make you unkillable as long as enemy DPS doesn't exceed your curing speed.
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#24 Jul 28 2011 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
Mages(More specifically CON) need to simmer down. Why?

FFXI Tarutaru Mage (No Gear/Buffs)
Level: 50
Total MP: 585

Cure: 8 (% of Total MP: 1.3%)
Cure II: 24 (% of Total MP: 4.1%)
Cure III: 46 (% of Total MP: 7.9%)

Curaga: 60 (% of Total MP: 10.3%)
Curaga II: 120 (% of Total MP: 20.5%)

MP/10 seconds: 21-65 (4 minutes total to get all mp back)

FFXIV Anything (No Gear/Buffs, 85 Mind)
Level: 46 (me currently)
MP: 1001

Cure: 45(% of Total MP: 4.5%)
Cure II: 75 (% of Total MP: 7.5%)
Cure III: 135 (% of Total MP: 13.5%)

Curaga: 112 (% of Total MP: 11.1%)
Curaga II: 187 (% of Total MP: 18.7%)

I get 9mp every 4 seconds. Total "heal" time to get full mp: 444 seconds, ~7.5 minutes (almost double mp)

Curaga's are basically the same in terms of how many you can pull off from full mp to zero, no QQ about it.

So, basically we can stop QQing because MP costs are essentially double what they once were in FFXI, with recovery taking twice as long? How exactly does that make things okay again?

Let's also gloss over the fact that in FFXI we had the following...
Divine Seal
Refresh/Yagudo Drinks
Cookies and other MP regen foods
Rest
Regen!!


Sorry, but we're still considerably worse off than in FFXI and there's no sign of recompense for having the insane costs applied. Our only regen effect now comes from Sacrifice (which costs 95mp) and only lasts for a very short duration instead of the considerable boon Regen originally was. I'm also not taking support roles such as Conserve MP from Black Mage or Sublimation from Scholar or Auto-Refresh from Summoner into consideration here.

Sure we get our 10 minute cooldown MP regen, but it restores only 300 mp (or does at my level), so we're still having to perma-spiritbind just to make the MP costs seem more friendly.
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#25 Jul 28 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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bigist thing i hate is we have to go for a hr and hope our tanks or DoW dont take to much in the instance and you can keep up with them. expicaly when it comes time for the boss fight.
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#26 Jul 28 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Elionara wrote:
Mages(More specifically CON) need to simmer down. Why?

FFXI Tarutaru Mage (No Gear/Buffs)
Level: 50
Total MP: 585

Cure: 8 (% of Total MP: 1.3%)
Cure II: 24 (% of Total MP: 4.1%)
Cure III: 46 (% of Total MP: 7.9%)

Curaga: 60 (% of Total MP: 10.3%)
Curaga II: 120 (% of Total MP: 20.5%)

MP/10 seconds: 21-65 (4 minutes total to get all mp back)

FFXIV Anything (No Gear/Buffs, 85 Mind)
Level: 46 (me currently)
MP: 1001

Cure: 45(% of Total MP: 4.5%)
Cure II: 75 (% of Total MP: 7.5%)
Cure III: 135 (% of Total MP: 13.5%)

Curaga: 112 (% of Total MP: 11.1%)
Curaga II: 187 (% of Total MP: 18.7%)

I get 9mp every 4 seconds. Total "heal" time to get full mp: 444 seconds, ~7.5 minutes (almost double mp)

Curaga's are basically the same in terms of how many you can pull off from full mp to zero, no QQ about it.

So, basically we can stop QQing because MP costs are essentially double what they once were in FFXI, with recovery taking twice as long? How exactly does that make things okay again?

Let's also gloss over the fact that in FFXI we had the following...
Divine Seal
Refresh/Yagudo Drinks
Cookies and other MP regen foods
Rest
Regen!!


Sorry, but we're still considerably worse off than in FFXI and there's no sign of recompense for having the insane costs applied. Our only regen effect now comes from Sacrifice (which costs 95mp) and only lasts for a very short duration instead of the considerable boon Regen originally was. I'm also not taking support roles such as Conserve MP from Black Mage or Sublimation from Scholar or Auto-Refresh from Summoner into consideration here.

Sure we get our 10 minute cooldown MP regen, but it restores only 300 mp (or does at my level), so we're still having to perma-spiritbind just to make the MP costs seem more friendly.


I never took any of those into consideration as well, I laid it as a point of fact:
% of Max MP. Simply that's it. I know we had those abilities and when I didn't use any of them, I ran out of MP just as fast, if not faster in XI than I do in 14. In 14, it's a different party structure, they're should be at least two mages. In XI you really only needed one.

Our groups do fine with 2 CON.
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#27 Jul 28 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Elionara wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
Elionara wrote:
Mages(More specifically CON) need to simmer down. Why?

FFXI Tarutaru Mage (No Gear/Buffs)
Level: 50
Total MP: 585

Cure: 8 (% of Total MP: 1.3%)
Cure II: 24 (% of Total MP: 4.1%)
Cure III: 46 (% of Total MP: 7.9%)

Curaga: 60 (% of Total MP: 10.3%)
Curaga II: 120 (% of Total MP: 20.5%)

MP/10 seconds: 21-65 (4 minutes total to get all mp back)

FFXIV Anything (No Gear/Buffs, 85 Mind)
Level: 46 (me currently)
MP: 1001

Cure: 45(% of Total MP: 4.5%)
Cure II: 75 (% of Total MP: 7.5%)
Cure III: 135 (% of Total MP: 13.5%)

Curaga: 112 (% of Total MP: 11.1%)
Curaga II: 187 (% of Total MP: 18.7%)

I get 9mp every 4 seconds. Total "heal" time to get full mp: 444 seconds, ~7.5 minutes (almost double mp)

Curaga's are basically the same in terms of how many you can pull off from full mp to zero, no QQ about it.

So, basically we can stop QQing because MP costs are essentially double what they once were in FFXI, with recovery taking twice as long? How exactly does that make things okay again?

Let's also gloss over the fact that in FFXI we had the following...
Divine Seal
Refresh/Yagudo Drinks
Cookies and other MP regen foods
Rest
Regen!!


Sorry, but we're still considerably worse off than in FFXI and there's no sign of recompense for having the insane costs applied. Our only regen effect now comes from Sacrifice (which costs 95mp) and only lasts for a very short duration instead of the considerable boon Regen originally was. I'm also not taking support roles such as Conserve MP from Black Mage or Sublimation from Scholar or Auto-Refresh from Summoner into consideration here.

Sure we get our 10 minute cooldown MP regen, but it restores only 300 mp (or does at my level), so we're still having to perma-spiritbind just to make the MP costs seem more friendly.


I never took any of those into consideration as well, I laid it as a point of fact:
% of Max MP. Simply that's it. I know we had those abilities and when I didn't use any of them, I ran out of MP just as fast, if not faster in XI than I do in 14. In 14, it's a different party structure, they're should be at least two mages. In XI you really only needed one.

Our groups do fine with 2 CON.


So wait, your solution to the problem is just... throw more mages at it? Sorry, that doesn't seem like the best solution to me. We shouldn't HAVE to bring 2+ healers to an event to do their jobs because of MP issues. Now if it were issues of massive damage that requires multiple healers or multiple tanks, that's one thing. But day to day game mechanics requiring 2+? That doesn't make any sense to me. Clearly to me that signifies that spell costs are a bit too extreme. A mage should almost never run out of MP if they are playing their job right. So, if mages are running out now, either they must all suck or else perhaps there is some imbalance.
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#28 Jul 28 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:

So wait, your solution to the problem is just... throw more mages at it?


Hey, don't bash the throw more [insert class here] it worked in ffxi. My most memorable moment to boot, BBQ ls on Odin got Aspid and killed it via throwing tanks at it till it die of DoT's (2007). Case closed.
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#29 Jul 28 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
Hey, don't bash the throw more [insert class here] it worked in ffxi. My most memorable moment to boot, BBQ ls on Odin got Aspid and killed it via throwing tanks at it till it die of DoT's (2007). Case closed.

To its credit though, FFXI at least did this in a more classy way and without directly nerfing any particular class. There were groups which were 'sub optimal', but you could still party pretty well with those less optimal groups and gain decent XP.

Elionara wrote:
I never took any of those into consideration as well, I laid it as a point of fact:
% of Max MP. Simply that's it. I know we had those abilities and when I didn't use any of them, I ran out of MP just as fast, if not faster in XI than I do in 14. In 14, it's a different party structure, they're should be at least two mages. In XI you really only needed one.

Our groups do fine with 2 CON.

Of course they do! Double the conjurers means double the MP! Try playing with just one in the group and see how far that gets you. I can wait.
...

Not looking as fun any more? Perhaps now you'll understand my frustration. The answer to the problem shouldn't be to just add more of the same class. A properly 'balanced' team shouldn't ever need multiples of any class and should promote diversity.

None of this is helping the solo aspect of the game either, which they apparently intend to keep if Yoshi-P's as good as his word.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 4:01pm by Glitterhands
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#30 Jul 28 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
BartelX wrote:

So wait, your solution to the problem is just... throw more mages at it?


Hey, don't bash the throw more [insert class here] it worked in ffxi. My most memorable moment to boot, BBQ ls on Odin got Aspid and killed it via throwing tanks at it till it die of DoT's (2007). Case closed.


Exactly lol. Besides, we now have 2 more spots in a party. What are we supposed to bring? "Hey let's throw more archers at it." ^^

All I'm saying is the party size changes, so should the dynamics. A 4 person party doesn't need 2 healers unless your trying to low man something. 2 healers and 6 DD is fine and dandy.

I wish in XI I could have exp party with BRD,RDM,DNC,NIN,THFx4...

SATA burn the snot outta the mobs.
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#31 Jul 28 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Default
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Glitterhands wrote:
TwiddleDee wrote:
Hey, don't bash the throw more [insert class here] it worked in ffxi. My most memorable moment to boot, BBQ ls on Odin got Aspid and killed it via throwing tanks at it till it die of DoT's (2007). Case closed.

To its credit though, FFXI at least did this in a more classy way and without directly nerfing any particular class. There were groups which were 'sub optimal', but you could still party pretty well with those less optimal groups and gain decent XP.

Elionara wrote:
I never took any of those into consideration as well, I laid it as a point of fact:
% of Max MP. Simply that's it. I know we had those abilities and when I didn't use any of them, I ran out of MP just as fast, if not faster in XI than I do in 14. In 14, it's a different party structure, they're should be at least two mages. In XI you really only needed one.

Our groups do fine with 2 CON.

Of course they do! Double the conjurers means double the MP! Try playing with just one in the group and see how far that gets you. I can wait.
...

Not looking as fun any more? Perhaps now you'll understand my frustration. The answer to the problem shouldn't be to just add more of the same class. A properly 'balanced' team shouldn't ever need multiples of any class and should promote diversity.

None of this is helping the solo aspect of the game either, which they apparently intend to keep if Yoshi-P's as good as his word.

Edited, Jul 28th 2011 4:01pm by Glitterhands


Yeah, soloing (for the time being) is the biggest pain in the !@$# since, well, what his name... Ruffledhamster or w/e it is, him or Birdhair.

Imagine... Birdhair playing this game.

If anyone doesn't know:
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bahamut/Birdhair


Edited, Jul 28th 2011 1:05pm by Elionara
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Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI, the game specs will be extremely high for the time, but in about 5 years, an average machine can run it on max settings with little to no issues. Tanaka also expressed interest in making a benchmark program available.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I endorse this thread.
#32 Jul 28 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Good
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Wow, your evidence that the MP changes aren't imbalanced, is that if you bring another CON along, doubling the available MP pool, everything works great.

Just to recap -
There isn't an issue with mages MP costs, but you have to bring an extra mage along so you don't run out of MP now.

Brilliant. The internet never fails to amuse, does it?
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#33 Jul 28 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Glitterhands wrote:
The answer to the problem shouldn't be to just add more of the same class.



Needs moar ARC.

Logic seems simple enough, more people in the party will likely increase the need for more mages to keep them healed. It will all depend on what you are doing really. I doubt 2 mages will always be needed, but like most things, different situations will call for different, more desirable, set ups. For now, the dungeons are best run with 2-3 mages, and parties are most optimal with 2 mages.
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#34 Jul 28 2011 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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i'm entitled to my rage,my ************ my Q.Q ing...i think all early adopters of this game are. in all honesty this game needs more team focus desperately. the new changes brought in 1.18 make solo play almost unbearable especially for nubs since every populated English servers economy is in the *******, this is only going to be made worse when gear and equipments is brought into tighter alignments with levels. this is going to create a ******** effect for new players when they see lvl 10 gear reaching the 100k limit, while the crafters try there best to try and curve this Ive monitored, Countless RMT transactions in the wards where they buy low level decently priced gear and jack the price 10 fold. SE is not going to attack RMT's head on and even if they did the damage is done. if any thing they'll do what SE does best and Grandfather the older generation...and once again attack the nubs by lowering gil output on leve's and popular grind items like marmot skins.

they should really take into effect the possibility of a Server wide currency reset. if i had billions of gil piling up id be ****** to find out I've now got 2 million tops but if its for the stability of new player bases, id be all for it.

#35 Jul 28 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Restyoneck wrote:
Wow, your evidence that the MP changes aren't imbalanced, is that if you bring another CON along, doubling the available MP pool, everything works great.

Just to recap -
There isn't an issue with mages MP costs, but you have to bring an extra mage along so you don't run out of MP now.

Brilliant. The internet never fails to amuse, does it?


How's this then?
A full party consists of 8 members: MRD+GLA+PUG+LNC+ARC+THM+CON=7

You don't *have* to make the 8th person a mage, but there's room to bring one. And just like in ALL other MMO's there are certain battles/mobs that require specific jobs. Nothing new there. Also look at those numbers again. We currently have 7 different battle classes 5/7 are NON-mage jobs. So even by bringing an extra CON or THM in the party you're still only playing with 3/8 mages.

Party play: Mages use to have to *rest* for MP in FFXI too (even with all the extra regen items we had at our disposal). Thats why everyone wanted RDM's and/or BRD's in their TP parties. Because they didn't want to break the chain to let their healer rest...oh and if you were a BLM, well you weren't even welcome in the party since well Colbri's and BLM's didn't mix. (BLM's had the joy of soloing on Goblin pets until they were high enough rank to be in Manaburns)

So just to recap for you
-no one's forcing you to bring an extra mage (and depending on your rank/class/party size and what you're doing, you might not even need one)
- to have a full party you need to double up on one class right now why not make it a mage?
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#36 Jul 29 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Kinseykinz wrote:
Restyoneck wrote:
Wow, your evidence that the MP changes aren't imbalanced, is that if you bring another CON along, doubling the available MP pool, everything works great.

Just to recap -
There isn't an issue with mages MP costs, but you have to bring an extra mage along so you don't run out of MP now.

Brilliant. The internet never fails to amuse, does it?


How's this then?
A full party consists of 8 members: MRD+GLA+PUG+LNC+ARC+THM+CON=7

You don't *have* to make the 8th person a mage, but there's room to bring one. And just like in ALL other MMO's there are certain battles/mobs that require specific jobs. Nothing new there. Also look at those numbers again. We currently have 7 different battle classes 5/7 are NON-mage jobs. So even by bringing an extra CON or THM in the party you're still only playing with 3/8 mages.

Party play: Mages use to have to *rest* for MP in FFXI too (even with all the extra regen items we had at our disposal). Thats why everyone wanted RDM's and/or BRD's in their TP parties. Because they didn't want to break the chain to let their healer rest...oh and if you were a BLM, well you weren't even welcome in the party since well Colbri's and BLM's didn't mix. (BLM's had the joy of soloing on Goblin pets until they were high enough rank to be in Manaburns)

So just to recap for you
-no one's forcing you to bring an extra mage (and depending on your rank/class/party size and what you're doing, you might not even need one)
- to have a full party you need to double up on one class right now why not make it a mage?


I think you've missed the point. Someone said "healing isn't too hard, bring 2 healers", which is along the lines of saying "If my DPS is low, I'll just get another Lancer, I'll double my DPS". Its ignoring the problem of the games "healing class" not being very capable of healing.
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#37 Jul 29 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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not to mention mages still pull hate like ****.
#38 Jul 29 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I think you've missed the point. Someone said "healing isn't too hard, bring 2 healers".... Its ignoring the problem of the games "healing class" not being very capable of healing.


Well perhaps "capable" doesn't mean "can fill the entire role by oneself." One can still be a capable tank in a game where two tanks per party is common; one can still be a capable damage dealer when a fight calls for several attackers; and one can still be a capable healer despite bosses calling for two individuals to fill that role. I don't see a problem with this, there's no mandate that a party must only have one person in charge of healing.
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#39 Jul 29 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
Kinseykinz wrote:
Restyoneck wrote:
Wow, your evidence that the MP changes aren't imbalanced, is that if you bring another CON along, doubling the available MP pool, everything works great.

Just to recap -
There isn't an issue with mages MP costs, but you have to bring an extra mage along so you don't run out of MP now.

Brilliant. The internet never fails to amuse, does it?


How's this then?
A full party consists of 8 members: MRD+GLA+PUG+LNC+ARC+THM+CON=7

You don't *have* to make the 8th person a mage, but there's room to bring one. And just like in ALL other MMO's there are certain battles/mobs that require specific jobs. Nothing new there. Also look at those numbers again. We currently have 7 different battle classes 5/7 are NON-mage jobs. So even by bringing an extra CON or THM in the party you're still only playing with 3/8 mages.

Party play: Mages use to have to *rest* for MP in FFXI too (even with all the extra regen items we had at our disposal). Thats why everyone wanted RDM's and/or BRD's in their TP parties. Because they didn't want to break the chain to let their healer rest...oh and if you were a BLM, well you weren't even welcome in the party since well Colbri's and BLM's didn't mix. (BLM's had the joy of soloing on Goblin pets until they were high enough rank to be in Manaburns)

So just to recap for you
-no one's forcing you to bring an extra mage (and depending on your rank/class/party size and what you're doing, you might not even need one)
- to have a full party you need to double up on one class right now why not make it a mage?


I think you've missed the point. Someone said "healing isn't too hard, bring 2 healers", which is along the lines of saying "If my DPS is low, I'll just get another Lancer, I'll double my DPS". Its ignoring the problem of the games "healing class" not being very capable of healing.


I didn't miss his point: I was explaining why it's not a big deal that there are some battles and situations right now that are best done with 2 CONs and how by carrying 2 CON's you are still able to have a completely even party representing all of the current battle classes. I was defending the 'bring 2-healer' logic. As it really isn't a big deal right now.

"If my DPS is low, I'll just get another Lancer, I'll double my DPS" ...well first off that's probably going to be the best strategy somewhere down the road (I believe that is the basic idea behind Zerging afterall). But more to my point, that was how we use to kill pretty much everything, "Just throw another Archer at it WAS and still is a valid strategy". Lastly MRD+LANCER+ARC+THM+Occasional Nuke from a CON or two IS a lot of Damage. You shouldn't *need* the extra party slot filled by a Melee DD/DPS often. Again 7 classes and 8 available party slots means at least one job WILL be doubled. CON currently makes the Most Sense to double...they can heal OR do damage...and they do decent damage at that. So a CON is a valid job to double up on.

Oh, and just because you have 2 of the same class, doesn't mean they are 'bad' at their job or that the class isn't functioning properly. It's a strategy. I've seen Archer parties blow things up...I doubt they did tank+healer+6 archers because 5 of the 6 archers sucked at their job...they did it because it worked, was efficient, and was fun.

Point is some battles will require 'keeping the tank alive while the party slowly beats the mob down' those are gonna need 1-2 Tanks and 1-2 Main healers. This is not a new idea in FF world, we've had battles like this before. Other times, we're gonna have 'Kill it quick so it doesn't do that God-awful TP move that will wipe us all' Then you'll probably only need 1 tank 1 healer and 6 "OMG make the bad Men stop!" DPS/DD's. So currently SE gave a dungeon that needs the tank/2 Healer set-up. The game will have more to do down the road requiring different set-ups and skills, it will all even out in the long haul.

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#40 Jul 30 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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Kinsey, I really think you're talking about humdrum daily activities in XIV. With all due respect, your Lodestone page does not show you've completed Into the Darkness, which indicates you haven't done it, or are having problems completing it.
Sure who needs 6 DD doing anything average in this game.

Now you start talking about Into the Darkness, and it becomes glaringly apparent that the enmity and MP costs are way imbalanced. Just as an imbalanced tire means sh*t-all at 15 miles an hour, you ramp that speed up to 60 and you learn instantly why is a very bad thing.

Let's put all the mage mp costs aside. GLD needs to cure his/her self, you can't curebomb anymore, and there are points in these fights where the mages have to move and the GLD must cure themselves. Cure 2 yourself 4 times and you're done.
The attacks are of a nature that stygian returns nothing, so maintaining an even low cure 1 cycle on yourself is impossible. You get 3-5 chances and it's all over. You may as well be using potions for how the mechanics work.

"I'm out of MP" shouldn't be called out by multiple people in one fight. Not even the most difficult battle in XI ever suffered from that. Nor did they turn into a wrestling match of enmity. The tank did his job, and the enmity stayed where it belonged, barring a enemy having a reset ability, or someone in the party being a moron.

The MP and enmity are out of balance atm. Does it affect you in a grind party, or doing some leves? No.
Is it glaringly obvious when doing something like the 45 dungeon? Without question, yes.

SE has a VERY high record of not getting an adjustment right the first, or even the second time. Arguing that SE got it exactly the way it should be after the first change is like playing the lottery. You might win, but we all know that's probably not going to happen.


Edited, Jul 30th 2011 1:51pm by Restyoneck
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#41 Jul 30 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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You're right, I've only gone on one 'lets just look in this dungeon and see what it's like mission (meaning the goal was to explore not complete).' Doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's ONE dungeon. ONE. And I'm positive that the dev's created that dungeon to work more properly once ALL the battle system changes are done, not just this first patch. It IS doable, people have done it, they've posted vidoes, links, how to's on other sites. Heck, even Yoshi P posted the stats on how many have completed it so far. So again, saying 'Mages are broken, it's unfair, etc' based on ONE dungeon, is flawed. I do not need to have completed said dungeon to know that.

I also never said, the Devs got it perfect. I just see this patch's changes as building blocks. Now if after the whole battle system is complete, people are still having huge issues, that's another deal. Saying it's unfair that because ONE fight requires specific classes, there is a problem with those classes, is also problematic.


(Oh and before this becomes a big thing, the 2 times I had time to do the dungeon so far: The first run, 1 person d/c'd out of our party so we were 7/8. The second time I d/c'd as I entered. So if I wanted to complain about the game, my complaint would have more to do with that than MP management.)



Edited, Jul 30th 2011 2:57pm by Kinseykinz
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#42 Jul 30 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not saying it can't be done, I've completed it on more than a few occasions.
And saying it's ONE dungeon isn't a fair dismissal, because for all intents and purposes, that one dungeon is the only real vehicle we have for testing the balance on the adjustments.
As stated before, pretty much anything else in the game is easy mode, the ogre and batraal fights are the only real tests we have for the balance at this time.

Edited, Jul 30th 2011 4:17pm by Restyoneck
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#43 Jul 30 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Excellent
KaneKitty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I think you've missed the point. Someone said "healing isn't too hard, bring 2 healers".... Its ignoring the problem of the games "healing class" not being very capable of healing.


Well perhaps "capable" doesn't mean "can fill the entire role by oneself." One can still be a capable tank in a game where two tanks per party is common; one can still be a capable damage dealer when a fight calls for several attackers; and one can still be a capable healer despite bosses calling for two individuals to fill that role. I don't see a problem with this, there's no mandate that a party must only have one person in charge of healing.



This is an interesting point to me: how do we know that SE isn't intending and balancing around parties bringing two healers?
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#44 Jul 30 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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digitalcraft wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I think you've missed the point. Someone said "healing isn't too hard, bring 2 healers".... Its ignoring the problem of the games "healing class" not being very capable of healing.


Well perhaps "capable" doesn't mean "can fill the entire role by oneself." One can still be a capable tank in a game where two tanks per party is common; one can still be a capable damage dealer when a fight calls for several attackers; and one can still be a capable healer despite bosses calling for two individuals to fill that role. I don't see a problem with this, there's no mandate that a party must only have one person in charge of healing.



This is an interesting point to me: how do we know that SE isn't intending and balancing around parties bringing two healers?


maybe? only they need to make sure that light parties, and any group between 5-7 should be getting away with 1.
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#45 Jul 31 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"I'm out of MP" shouldn't be called out by multiple people in one fight. Not even the most difficult battle in XI ever suffered from that. Nor did they turn into a wrestling match of enmity. The tank did his job, and the enmity stayed where it belonged, barring a enemy having a reset ability, or someone in the party being a moron.

Are you kidding? This is exactly what a "this is starting to not go well" moment looked like in FFXI for years, until mp-refresh became much more accessible (and by that point tanks couldn't hold hate anyway because the enmity cap was far too low relative to the damage output of players).

If you're saying, "That's not what FFXI looked like when everything went well in a fight," then I think it's a little early to declare that you've mastered the Darkness and therefore any hate or mp problems must be faulty game design.

I agree that there's room for adjustment, but you either played FFXI for only that magical few months where refresh was common and tanking still worked well, or you just have rose-tinted glasses about your experience there (which, compared to XIV, is admittedly a common thing).
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