Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Official Darkhold Tactics: Just bring 6 mages!Follow

#1 Aug 02 2011 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
I just had a chance to glance at the Darhold tactics "suggested" in the Eorzea Tsuushin magazine that came out yesterday. To get all 5 chests, the "Eorzea Tactics Squad" strongly advises to bring 5/8 mages, an archer and two Gladiators.

Looks like SE did it again: Diverse parties of mixed composition.
/sarcasm off

P.S.: They also mention that if one of the Gladiators is able to change to Conjurer after a certain point, things become easier. Isn't that great. Just bring 6 mages and you're golden.

No, it's not happy friday.


Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 1:56am by Rinsui

Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 2:57am by Rinsui
#2 Aug 02 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
Well, here's to hoping that statement, if true, comes with an unspoken stipulation of "until the job system."

Otherwise, kind of fail.
#3 Aug 02 2011 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
You're free to read it for yourselves (evil grin):
http://www.famitsu.com/blog/ff14/

Another tidbit: Every player should have the Archer ability "Stride" equipped. Time to level archer, or you'll never reach the 5th chest it in time.
We love the armoury system.


Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 2:11am by Rinsui
#4 Aug 03 2011 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
This is so much fail and it has nothing to do the game itself. Out of Gladiator, Marauder, **** even Pugilist. Gladiator is the worst tank you can pick for Ogre and even Batraal.

But it has a shield so it must be the best tank superior to all! It can block...?

Dear Gladiator,

Your emnity sucks compared to the others.
Your health sucks compared to the others. Sure you can put everything into vitality, neglecting other stats.
You only block the few weak attacks that can be easily evaded, parried and even full parried for 0 damage. The attacks that count you can't migitate at all with your shield.



The point I'm trying to make here is not that Gladiator sucks. It's still a very good tank ( but situational, like others ). My point is that the people, who are suggesting all these cookiecutter builds, can't distinguish sugar from salt: They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#5 Aug 03 2011 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,566 posts
Quote:
They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them


Sadly, Gladiator was the de facto tank before any played the game. Which will be solidified when Paladin is released.

Gladly, my LS is going to let me take a crack at tanking once my mrd is 50 ^^
#6 Aug 03 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
The point I'm trying to make here is not that Gladiator sucks. It's still a very good tank ( but situational, like others ). My point is that the people, who are suggesting all these cookiecutter builds, can't distinguish sugar from salt: They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them.

Actually: no. The tactics they detail use exactly the ability to diminish weak attacks to 0, and avoid special moves altogether. Gladiator arguably is the best for that job; and, sadly, the only job that works in their scenario.
#7 Aug 03 2011 at 1:11 AM Rating: Good
*
215 posts
Maybe a future instance raid will require a different kind of setup.
#8 Aug 03 2011 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
Quote:
Maybe a future instance raid will require a different kind of setup.

Like: 7 lancers and 1 marauder?
#9 Aug 03 2011 at 1:34 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
The point I'm trying to make here is not that Gladiator sucks. It's still a very good tank ( but situational, like others ). My point is that the people, who are suggesting all these cookiecutter builds, can't distinguish sugar from salt: They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them.


Actually: no. The tactics they detail use exactly the ability to diminish weak attacks to 0, and avoid special moves altogether. Gladiator arguably is the best for that job; and, sadly, the only job that works in their scenario.


Actually: no. You oblivious cookiecutter.

Quote:
ability to diminish weak attacks to 0

There aren't enough weak attacks for this to matter. I'm guessing you're trying to hint at preventing tp gain;

Quote:
and avoid special moves altogether.

This has nothing to do with the Gladiator class

Quote:
Gladiator arguably is the best for that job.


I posted my arguements why it's not, why don't you post yours.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#10 Aug 03 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
I don't post any arguments because I don't need to. I just translated what the guys who consistently manage to open the final fifth chest wrote. If you think you know better - all power to you ^.-/

Actually I'd love to see you stand up and tell them that they can't distinguish sugar from salt and that They have no idea what they're talking about. And then beat their record with your own tactics.

Go ahead.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 3:44am by Rinsui
#11 Aug 03 2011 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
No surprise there. I thought that maybe with the original battle system they were moving towards implementing more personal strategy, but they obviously couldn't even manage that much. Back to organizational strategy, I guess.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#12 Aug 03 2011 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
513 posts
Yeah, this focus on speed was a bad idea, just as I anticipated. It just leads to exploiting class strengths to the extreme like we see here. Of course there is also the fact that all melee except the tanks are useless as mages/archers do everything they do but better and safer.
____________________________
#13 Aug 03 2011 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,226 posts
Edit: Disregard that, I suck chests.

Didn't read it was a speed run.

Granted, speed only gets you one box. You certainly don't need an army of mages or archers to beat ogre/Batraal handily.

Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 6:53am by Almalexia
____________________________
w(°o°)w
#14 Aug 03 2011 at 5:05 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,523 posts

Rinsui wrote:
I don't post any arguments because I don't need to. I just translated what the guys who consistently manage to open the final fifth chest wrote. If you think you know better - all power to you ^.-/

Actually I'd love to see you stand up and tell them that they can't distinguish sugar from salt and that They have no idea what they're talking about. And then beat their record with your own tactics.

Go ahead.


Uhm you just said...

Rinsui wrote:
Actually: no. The tactics they detail use exactly the ability to diminish weak attacks to 0, and avoid special moves altogether. Gladiator arguably is the best for that job; and, sadly, the only job that works in their scenario.


Quote:
Gladiator arguably is the best for that job


Quote:
arguably


That was you. So I asked for your arguements.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#15 Aug 03 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
569 posts
Wait what am i reading here GLD can't tank? What are you people smoking? I play GLD as tank and i have zero problems with dungeons or any other aspect. As is a glad can keep best hate, get hit for nothing and needs very little care from the mages. Mrd and Pug can sub tank if the occasion calls for it i agree there, but if you have a GLD why settle for second best for tanking.
Are there situations were a pug may perform better yes, same as mnk tanking in ffxi it had it's purpose in some instances, however pld was still first in line tank.
____________________________
99th paper cut, and the grain of salt.
#16 Aug 03 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
*
144 posts
Dungeon is beatable with 20 minutes left over and 3 mages if you have a half decent party.
____________________________
Sir Littlej wrote:
i think i said goodbye, but i might have told him to go die, im not sure


Tera Kalinathon wrote:
i do like... wood o.o



#17 Aug 03 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
**
284 posts
Hey did anyone notice that ppl are arguing tactics in ffxiv? Guess that means more ppl are actually playing the game instead of nitpicking and complaining about everything that doesnt work. I think we might have an actual game on our hands afterall.
#18 Aug 03 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
***
2,010 posts
leomike35 wrote:
Hey did anyone notice that ppl are arguing tactics in ffxiv? Guess that means more ppl are actually playing the game instead of nitpicking and complaining about everything that doesnt work. I think we might have an actual game on our hands afterall.


Well to be fair, it's the same people who have been here from the start arguing the... "tactics"... if it can be called that.

We all knew that this was coming though - SE's idea of balance in XI was pretty bad, and they have to worry about all the other things that are going wrong in this game on top of class balance. Long way to go, and I'd reserve any final judgement until we at least see what they do with Physical levels and the renaming of classes.

Let's also remember this is pretty much their first stab at a dungeon of this sort.
#19 Aug 03 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
523 posts
Our runs for the chest have consisted of 4 Archers, 2 CON 1 THM and 1 Gld.

No issues here.
#20 Aug 03 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,153 posts
We're not talking about "the chest" here, but about all five in one run.
Good morning.

Besides, 4 Archers, 2 CON 1 THM and 1 Gld doesn't sound much better than 6 mages and 2 GLDs.


Edited, Aug 3rd 2011 12:17pm by Rinsui
#21 Aug 03 2011 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,825 posts
I guess I don't understand what makes this OFFICIAL... Did SE endorse this or is this a fan rag of some sort that publishes tactics and such... if a fan rag then they likely just caused us all a nerf somewhere down the road as surely the intent is to use a balanced party with creative tactics... zerging things with mages is usually not an ideal tactic for any developer.
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#22 Aug 03 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
136 posts
I'm curious if people will eventually use different jobs to sweep the dungeon but regardless people will take the path of least resistance, and even if their are viable strategies using other jobs, no one's going to use them once things like this get out into the public consciousness.
#23 Aug 03 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
It's a way. Not the way.

For one dungeon. Not every (future) dungeon.

On the bright side, it's surprisingly nice to see people bickering about gameplay and tactics. SE provides a dungeon, some people find an efficient way to beat it, therefore it's Official? - Not at all.

FFXIV has begun to offer content that inspires strategic gameplay. The fact there is now content that makes players want to optimize their party is cause for celebration.

You either get easy-peasy-do-it-however, or challenges that are going to have a number of solutions, some of which are better than others.

For me, this is the best news I've heard in months.
#24 Aug 03 2011 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
*
176 posts
Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
I guess I don't understand what makes this OFFICIAL... Did SE endorse this or is this a fan rag of some sort that publishes tactics and such...

Clearly Famitsu is some sort of hideous fan rag with no credibility whatsoever (Probably why people go crazy whenever they give out a perfect score).
____________________________

TERA looks tasty...
#25 Aug 03 2011 at 11:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
626 posts
Stalker Riniaru wrote:
Perrin, ****** Superhero wrote:
I guess I don't understand what makes this OFFICIAL... Did SE endorse this or is this a fan rag of some sort that publishes tactics and such...

Clearly Famitsu is some sort of hideous fan rag with no credibility whatsoever (Probably why people go crazy whenever they give out a perfect score).

yeah from what i understand by japanese players that speak english here in los angeles and on the forums, famitsu is widely known in japan for being SEs ***** so to speak. well not just SE but apparently they love marketing and bribes more so than your next game magazine.

on topic. i think its really sad SE has such a problem with class balance. i just dont understand how or why they do certain things >.<

Edited, Aug 4th 2011 1:56am by pixelpop
____________________________

#26 Aug 04 2011 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
i just dont understand how or why they do certain things >.<


How: Decision-making just short of trial and error.
Why: They don't know what they're doing :/

It really just seems as though SE, either purposefully or due to a child-like ignorance, doesn't put a whole lot of forethought into how certain features and mechanics will play out, opting instead to just see what happens. I don't necessarily think that's the case here, but maybe I'm just giving Yoshi-P too much credit because he actually seems to think about these things. Sometimes I wonder if he's the only one.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#27 Aug 04 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
513 posts
Kachi wrote:

How: Decision-making just short of trial and error.
Why: They don't know what they're doing :/

It really just seems as though SE, either purposefully or due to a child-like ignorance, doesn't put a whole lot of forethought into how certain features and mechanics will play out, opting instead to just see what happens. I don't necessarily think that's the case here, but maybe I'm just giving Yoshi-P too much credit because he actually seems to think about these things. Sometimes I wonder if he's the only one.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about the developers, so I'm going to quote this for truth.
____________________________
#28 Aug 04 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
****
7,106 posts
Quote:
That was you. So I asked for your arguements.

Is English not your first language? "Arguably" doesn't mean "I am certain with my own personal arguments that this is correct." Arguably means "some might dispute this conclusion, and so it is arguable."

The sentence you're calling him out for is the thing he said that most agrees with you.
#29 Aug 04 2011 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
****
4,153 posts
SmashingtonWho wrote:
On the bright side, it's surprisingly nice to see people bickering about gameplay and tactics. SE provides a dungeon, some people find an efficient way to beat it, therefore it's Official? - Not at all.

Arrow-burn. Mana-burn. Skeleton-burn. Summoner-burn... Now if only we could come up with a fitting name for this group configuration. Hmmm...
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#30 Aug 04 2011 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
This style is sadly also rampant in FFXI's last 6 expansions.

Shanatoto/Moogle Ku'p/Etc, the general strategy was "archers and mages"

Nearly EVERY single NM in abyssea is "No one feed tp! No melees! Stand there and wait for me to call on you to attempt to proc a color maybe."

It's stupid design and disappointing.
____________________________


#31 Aug 04 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,226 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
On the bright side, it's surprisingly nice to see people bickering about gameplay and tactics. SE provides a dungeon, some people find an efficient way to beat it, therefore it's Official? - Not at all.

Arrow-burn. Mana-burn. Skeleton-burn. Summoner-burn... Now if only we could come up with a fitting name for this group configuration. Hmmm...

How about "totally optional," since you can get the fifth chest without a mage or archer army. You would have to sacrifice other chests to make it through in 35 minutes, though. We've seen dungeon design like this in FFXI.
____________________________
w(°o°)w
#32 Aug 05 2011 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
513 posts
Almalexia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
On the bright side, it's surprisingly nice to see people bickering about gameplay and tactics. SE provides a dungeon, some people find an efficient way to beat it, therefore it's Official? - Not at all.

Arrow-burn. Mana-burn. Skeleton-burn. Summoner-burn... Now if only we could come up with a fitting name for this group configuration. Hmmm...

How about "totally optional," since you can get the fifth chest without a mage or archer army. You would have to sacrifice other chests to make it through in 35 minutes, though. We've seen dungeon design like this in FFXI.

All those "burns" were optional, too. You could just go with six bards and kill Decent Challenge mobs if that's what you wanted to do.
____________________________
#33 Aug 05 2011 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
**
660 posts
Won't there always be a 'best' setup to completing virtually any challenge in an MMO? By that I mean considering the nature of MMOs, the class system, and how tactics evolve over time, isn't it inevitable that a proven best strategy will be developed for just about any task in the game? I see people complain that their preferred job class isn't optimal for the dungeon but to me, that's just how it goes in an MMO. One dungeon just can't be designed so that all job classes are optimal. Maybe there will be another one down the line that PUG is good in, or LNC shines, this one just happens to be one where mages shine. That's my theory anyway.

So I would suggest sitting back and have fun with the group you have, and stop sweating over how to min/max everything.

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 8:21am by reptiletim
____________________________


#34 Aug 05 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
****
7,106 posts
Quote:
All those "burns" were optional, too. You could just go with six bards and kill Decent Challenge mobs if that's what you wanted to do.

There just might possibly be some middle ground between "perfect" and "terrible."

If you only have fun playing an MMO if you can have everything "perfect," then you're just going to have to put in the time to have every option available to you all the time. Go ahead and level every job -- the game lets you do that. The rest of us will just have to get by on "not perfect but still pretty good." I'm gonna call getting four of five chests (and the last chest can be one of those four, keep in mind) "pretty good."

That said, the first effective strategy found by players is unlikely to be the only one. Perhaps we should wait just a little longer before declaring that there is exactly one effective way to run this dungeon.
#35 Aug 05 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,226 posts
Omena wrote:
Almalexia wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SmashingtonWho wrote:
On the bright side, it's surprisingly nice to see people bickering about gameplay and tactics. SE provides a dungeon, some people find an efficient way to beat it, therefore it's Official? - Not at all.

Arrow-burn. Mana-burn. Skeleton-burn. Summoner-burn... Now if only we could come up with a fitting name for this group configuration. Hmmm...

How about "totally optional," since you can get the fifth chest without a mage or archer army. You would have to sacrifice other chests to make it through in 35 minutes, though. We've seen dungeon design like this in FFXI.

All those "burns" were optional, too. You could just go with six bards and kill Decent Challenge mobs if that's what you wanted to do.

I suppose. You could also **** on the lid of a toilet instead of lifting it up first, but that would be pretty stupid of you.

Incidentally, you are not allowed to use my bathroom anymore.

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 8:03pm by Almalexia
____________________________
w(°o°)w
#36 Aug 06 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
**
821 posts
RedGalka wrote:
This is so much fail and it has nothing to do the game itself. Out of Gladiator, Marauder, **** even Pugilist. Gladiator is the worst tank you can pick for Ogre and even Batraal.

But it has a shield so it must be the best tank superior to all! It can block...?

Dear Gladiator,

Your emnity sucks compared to the others.
Your health sucks compared to the others. Sure you can put everything into vitality, neglecting other stats.
You only block the few weak attacks that can be easily evaded, parried and even full parried for 0 damage. The attacks that count you can't migitate at all with your shield.



The point I'm trying to make here is not that Gladiator sucks. It's still a very good tank ( but situational, like others ). My point is that the people, who are suggesting all these cookiecutter builds, can't distinguish sugar from salt: They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them.


Yeah right...you seem to have no idea what you're talking about as well. MRDs only reason to tank right now is cause they deal dmg while tanking, GLA doesn't. THAT'S the ONLY reason why people want them to tank for specific strategies(mainly speedruns). Groups that have to rely on MRD cause of hate issues need to get better GLA tanks, cause hate is no issue if you know what you're doing.

I'm GLA tanking Ogre and Batraal and got no hate issues.
I'm having less HP as a MRD, which is only obvious cause he needs to have more HP to compensate for the fact he can't block, in his case parry, all normal attacks 100% of the time, while GLA can.
And how does MRD mitigate the attacks that "count" in your POV? He can't do anything a GLA can't do as well...we're just relying on cross class abilities.

With Deflection, Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver+Sentinel up for 54/60 seconds til the first skill is rdy again all I have to take care of is using my "mitigation" abilities at the right time to avoid dmg completely.

Inferno Drop? Shield Bash and/or Featherfoot and bam ZERO dmg.
Any other physical attack that's parryable? Foresight...
Just any closed range attack? Diversion...
Ranged/Magic Attack? Decoy...
Elemental based attacks? Emulate...
Just getting less dmg in general from any kind of attack? Sentinel...

You seem to ingore the fact that MRD tanks on Ogre/Batraal are only the "suggested" tank for speedruns right now and why? Cause they can BR/attack for decent DMG, while GLA does sh*t. If I join a BR on Batraal I may hit him for 300 if it's good, I saw MRD using Maim for 700+dmg...MRD is a good tank if you want to actually have a tank that deals DMG while tanking, but for anything else, GLA is first choice cause he actually avoids getting dmg(and he does it better than MRD) or otherwise, show me how you "mitigate" the dmg on attacks that "count" that's restricted to being a MRD and does so much better than a GLA that it's worth tanking as MRD over a GLA.

Not to mention that 90% of Batraals attacks til the last phase are regular attacks that can be blocked(I can stay alive on Batraal for more than 3min w/o needing any outside heal, how about you?) and once he gets into his last phase rage mode, you can simply avoid ALL his special moves by moving...so where is your MRD tank so much superior?

Edited, Aug 6th 2011 9:42am by Shezard
#37 Aug 06 2011 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Shezard wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
This is so much fail and it has nothing to do the game itself. Out of Gladiator, Marauder, **** even Pugilist. Gladiator is the worst tank you can pick for Ogre and even Batraal.

But it has a shield so it must be the best tank superior to all! It can block...?

Dear Gladiator,

Your emnity sucks compared to the others.
Your health sucks compared to the others. Sure you can put everything into vitality, neglecting other stats.
You only block the few weak attacks that can be easily evaded, parried and even full parried for 0 damage. The attacks that count you can't migitate at all with your shield.



The point I'm trying to make here is not that Gladiator sucks. It's still a very good tank ( but situational, like others ). My point is that the people, who are suggesting all these cookiecutter builds, can't distinguish sugar from salt: They have no idea what they're talking about. And the worst thing is that the majority of players believes them.


Yeah right...you seem to have no idea what you're talking about as well. MRDs only reason to tank right now is cause they deal dmg while tanking, GLA doesn't. THAT'S the ONLY reason why people want them to tank for specific strategies(mainly speedruns). Groups that have to rely on MRD cause of hate issues need to get better GLA tanks, cause hate is no issue if you know what you're doing.

I'm GLA tanking Ogre and Batraal and got no hate issues.
I'm having less HP as a MRD, which is only obvious cause he needs to have more HP to compensate for the fact he can't block, in his case parry, all normal attacks 100% of the time, while GLA can.
And how does MRD mitigate the attacks that "count" in your POV? He can't do anything a GLA can't do as well...we're just relying on cross class abilities.

With Deflection, Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver+Sentinel up for 54/60 seconds til the first skill is rdy again all I have to take care of is using my "mitigation" abilities at the right time to avoid dmg completely.

Inferno Drop? Shield Bash and/or Featherfoot and bam ZERO dmg.
Any other physical attack that's parryable? Foresight...
Just any closed range attack? Diversion...
Ranged/Magic Attack? Decoy...
Elemental based attacks? Emulate...
Just getting less dmg in general from any kind of attack? Sentinel...

You seem to ingore the fact that MRD tanks on Ogre/Batraal are only the "suggested" tank for speedruns right now and why? Cause they can BR/attack for decent DMG, while GLA does sh*t. If I join a BR on Batraal I may hit him for 300 if it's good, I saw MRD using Maim for 700+dmg...MRD is a good tank if you want to actually have a tank that deals DMG while tanking, but for anything else, GLA is first choice cause he actually avoids getting dmg(and he does it better than MRD) or otherwise, show me how you "mitigate" the dmg on attacks that "count" that's restricted to being a MRD and does so much better than a GLA that it's worth tanking as MRD over a GLA.

Not to mention that 90% of Batraals attacks til the last phase are regular attacks that can be blocked(I can stay alive on Batraal for more than 3min w/o needing any outside heal, how about you?) and once he gets into his last phase rage mode, you can simply avoid ALL his special moves by moving...so where is your MRD tank so much superior?


I don't understand why you're making Gladiator the underdog. The whole point was that cookiecutters are focussing too much on certain classes, giving the impression that they outweigh other classes by far. The comparrision of Mrd vs Gla was an example that points out it's simply not true.

You keep focussing on block being the holy grail, the trump card. Attacks that can be blocked can also be missed, evaded and parried. And while Mrds don't parry 100% of the time, it does have high frequency. In combination with Feather Foot & Foresight, the gap is really tiny.

Then you bring up abilities and tactics that all classes can use... Another reason why it's not just Gladiator that can tank?

You asked for Mrd's trump card? It's Emnity,Highest Health Pool, Strongest defense and magic defense in general. Defender II is strong on main class and not just for the high hate. The special attacks that you do want to migitate, but you can't except for evade, Mrd migitates better.

Batraal is so lol to tank, we got a Pug doing it now. He evasion-tanks that one with ease, while I'm tanking skeletons.

____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#38 Aug 06 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
**
821 posts
RedGalka wrote:


I don't understand why you're making Gladiator the underdog. The whole point was that cookiecutters are focussing too much on certain classes, giving the impression that they outweigh other classes by far. The comparrision of Mrd vs Gla was an example that points out it's simply not true.

You keep focussing on block being the holy grail, the trump card. Attacks that can be blocked can also be missed, evaded and parried. And while Mrds don't parry 100% of the time, it does have high frequency. In combination with Feather Foot & Foresight, the gap is really tiny.

Then you bring up abilities and tactics that all classes can use... Another reason why it's not just Gladiator that can tank?

You asked for Mrd's trump card? It's Emnity,Highest Health Pool, Strongest defense and magic defense in general. Defender II is strong on main class and not just for the high hate. The special attacks that you do want to migitate, but you can't except for evade, Mrd migitates better.

Batraal is so lol to tank, we got a Pug doing it now. He evasion-tanks that one with ease, while I'm tanking skeletons.



And my arguments simply pointed out that GLA is the better tank, although you claim it not to be. I'm not making GLA the underdog, if anything, you make MRD look way better than he is. I'm not saying he can't tank, but it doesn't change the fact that GLA still is the better tank, even if its only (insert random percentage here) better, he is better. And I'm only "focusing on blocking, cause it'S GLAs way of tanking, if you haven't noticed you bring up parry all the time, so what's your point?

You brought up the argument that MRD got better dmg mitigation(Defender 2) and that it is the reason why MRD is the better tank, I brought up points that shows that GLA has better dmg mitigation overall and you still deny it.

What's blocking to GLA, is parrying to MRD, but unlike MRD, GLA can force his blocks, while MRD has to rely on procs.
That alone is dmg mitigation that Defender 2 never reaches. Just watch all those videos of MRD tanking Batraal or whatever...I see them getting hit for 200-400dmg on Batraal everytime they don't full parry...I get hit for ZERO for the first 36seconds of the fight, and then for around 100dmg for the 18seconds after, til my first skill is rdy again that makes me get hit for zero again and this counts out all the evasion/parry etc things that I can do just as well to lengthen the phase of me getting hit for zero...

Let's just do some simple maths here...if Batraal takes 9min to kill, I am getting ZERO dmg for 6 out of those 9min! This counts out his special moves who are not blockable, but for those I got all my "dmg mitigation" skills like Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Diversion etc, which of course are not GLA restricted, but what does MRD have restricted to himself that would help him? And don't even bring up Defender 2 being so awesome on main class.

Another example on Ogre...he is way higher in rank then Batraal, so you get more dmg overall no matter what sort of tank you are. He uses his regular attacks way less then Batraal, which only makes sense since hes fed TP constantly over the whole fight. When he uses Inferno drop I can either hope for a WS stun, I can Shield Bash to stun him, or just use Featherfoot to evade. If everything fails and I got Sentinel up, Inferno Drop is hitting me for 1/3 of its total dmg on average, **** with some skills up I even get hit for zero on Inferno Drops occasionally...

Another thing...you always bring up MRDs Health pool and I already said, it's only reasonable for him to have higher health simply cause he has LESS dmg mitigation then a GLA, so him having more health is just a way to counter that and make him a viable tank...

You flame Rinsui for not bringing up arguments, but when someone does you just ignore them and instead make false statements of why MRD is the superior tank, when he's not.

Edited, Aug 6th 2011 6:07pm by Shezard
#39 Aug 07 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
It's like talking to a wall. I'm done.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#40 Aug 07 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
**
821 posts
RedGalka wrote:
It's like talking to a wall. I'm done.


The scent of victory smells bitter sweet.

If you want to convince me that MRD is the better tank, just bring up better arguments then Defender 2...
I have proven that GLA has more/better dmg mitigation available than MRD does, Sentinel alone cuts 2/3 of the DMG you take from ALL attacks that hit you while its active, and with 20sec duration and 1min recast, it's superior to Defender 2 easily...

But hey, it's ok, you submitted you can't bring up valid arguments why MRD is the better tank so I'm fine with that.
Maybe someone who actually argues better might bring up better reasons why MRD is the better tank, cause I'm willing to accept MRD as being a better tank, but your arguments why he is the better tank are just lol and I brought more than one counter argument why GLA is better. Proof me wrong and I'm willing to listen.


Edited, Aug 7th 2011 4:59pm by Shezard
#41 Aug 07 2011 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
**
257 posts
Is there no love for pugilist in these raids? ;(
____________________________
FFXI(retired 04/2006): Epedemicoptikz, Phoenix Server, 75 SAM/NIN/WAR

#42 Aug 07 2011 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
****
6,898 posts
RedGalka wrote:
It's like talking to a wall. I'm done.


And that ladies and gentleman is called losing an argument.
____________________________
Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
thekrakenclub.shivtr.com
#43 Aug 08 2011 at 12:42 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Shezard wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
It's like talking to a wall. I'm done.


The scent of victory smells bitter sweet.

If you want to convince me that MRD is the better tank, just bring up better arguments then Defender 2...
I have proven that GLA has more/better dmg mitigation available than MRD does, Sentinel alone cuts 2/3 of the DMG you take from ALL attacks that hit you while its active, and with 20sec duration and 1min recast, it's superior to Defender 2 easily...

But hey, it's ok, you submitted you can't bring up valid arguments why MRD is the better tank so I'm fine with that.
Maybe someone who actually argues better might bring up better reasons why MRD is the better tank, cause I'm willing to accept MRD as being a better tank, but your arguments why he is the better tank are just lol and I brought more than one counter argument why GLA is better. Proof me wrong and I'm willing to listen.


You're not willing to listen at all. I brought up all arguements before Defender 2, but you ignore everything.

Quote:
Sentinel

Yes it's amazing isn't it? I use it too.

What you and I think of what is important in tanking is different as well. You keep defending Gladiator with arguements about things that are trivial to me. Your Gladiator tank can't handle burst damage in a consistant manner, you're a far greater risk than my Marauder tank is. Even if my Marauder tank takes a bit more damage over time, your Gladiator's peaks and lows are the problem. There is no point for discussion , you rather nitpick over the base line toothpick attacks and I don't.


Edited, Aug 8th 2011 8:48am by RedGalka
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#44 Aug 08 2011 at 4:41 AM Rating: Excellent
**
821 posts
RedGalka wrote:


Yes it's amazing isn't it? I use it too.

What you and I think of what is important in tanking is different as well. You keep defending Gladiator with arguements about things that are trivial to me. Your Gladiator tank can't handle burst damage in a consistant manner, you're a far greater risk than my Marauder tank is. Even if my Marauder tank takes a bit more damage over time, your Gladiator's peaks and lows are the problem. There is no point for discussion , you rather nitpick over the base line toothpick attacks and I don't.


Edited, Aug 8th 2011 8:48am by RedGalka


I'm willing to listen if you actually bring up arguments with content, instead of just claiming stuff to be something without giving examples and reasons. All you brought up was GLA hate sucks, GLA HP sucks and GLA dmg mitigation sucks.
I brought up how all of those 3 arguments are nonsense and gave examples of why they are nonsense.

Yeah, you can use Sentinel, but with lower duration and higher recast, not to mention the lower effect. You bring up Defender 2 being so awesome on main class and so much better then on a cross class, but then act as if Sentinel has no flaws using it on anotehr class. I'm sorry, but using Sentinel on GLA outweighs Defender 2 on MRD by far and if you're not willing to admit it, you're just ignoring facts.

And I'm tired of you talking about those dmg mitigations MRD apparently has that makes him so much better than GLA...

You repeat yourself over and over without giving real examples. I told you why GLA is the better tank, what he can do and what it is good for. While I use my shield skills for all the "regular" attacks to block them, I can save AAAALLLLLLLLLLL the dmg mitigation skills for the real hard hitting stuff, while a MRD needs them as well for just regular attacks.

All you say is "normal attacks don't count" and that it's about special moves with high dmg where MRD is better...but HOW? You don't give any examples or reasons behind it, you just say it's so but what is it that makes MRD so much better at it? All you brought up so far is Defender 2...and we both know that's just lol...

I'm not nitpicking over baseline attacks, I'm nitpicking about your statement that MRD is so much better at mitigating high dmg special moves but you never say how...and not just how, but how it is only restricted to MRD that makes him so much better?

You're just failing in any way possible...I'm holding a real discussion here and bring up arguments, you just say GLA sucks and MRD is better...

And just to counter right away before you bring up that nonsense a third time...if a GLA has issues on enmity, the person playing him sucks, not the GLA class, I never got hate issues on anything.

Don't even bring up the HP pool again...I countered that 2 times already...the reasno for MRD to have higher HP is cause he can't block so he takes more dmg on a regular basis...therefore he needs higher base HP modifiers to be a viable tank.

And your last argument you brought up at the beginning without giving real examples...dmg mitigation...give me clear and set examples, tell me how and I'm willing to listen...

PS: On all that I haven't even brought up Rampart, Obsess and Tempered Will as dmg mitigations on GLA...I could show you even more how GLA is a better tank and takes less dmg(not just on toothpick baseline attacks, but on hard hitting stuff as well) I got my shield for regular attacks and all the evasion/parry etc skills on the hard stuff to get hit for zero WHEN I want it.

Edited, Aug 8th 2011 10:44am by Shezard
#45 Aug 08 2011 at 7:12 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
3,226 posts
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Is there no love for pugilist in these raids? ;(

Batraal spawns skeletons. You tell me.
____________________________
w(°o°)w
#46 Aug 08 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
Sage
*
182 posts
So let me start off by saying i agree 100% with what Shezard has said. I myself am a 50 GLA and 50MRD.There is no doubt that my GLA can negate far more damage than my MRD. Sentenel alone on Batraal drops a 1300 hit to 500. Add in all the other defense abilities and there you have it. I do understan the argument that these can be use off class as well. Unfortunately they are not as potent off class with a shorter duration and longer recast.

Quick question from a tank to a tank.
Quote:
I can Shield Bash to stun him

The reason i have not been using this in the raid is cause it silences the target not stuns.. or am i just a ******? Are some of the ogre's abilities considered spells?

Also on the note that the MRD did a Maim for 700+ on batraal, his defense is pretty **** weak. With the increase in Riot Blade my full TP Riot can to 500 damaged unbuffed and not in BR. This is a highly overlooked ability to add to your bar, not to mention it also increases enmity
____________________________
#47 Aug 08 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
**
821 posts
jtully wrote:

Quick question from a tank to a tank.
Quote:
I can Shield Bash to stun him

The reason i have not been using this in the raid is cause it silences the target not stuns.. or am i just a ******? Are some of the ogre's abilities considered spells?


Shield Bash silences the target if it sticks(and that's what the tooltip says), but the hit itself can "interrupt" any kind of skill that must be "readied". It's not really a stun, it's more an interrupt, I just call it stun xD

You can see it in your battle log. If the ability says "MobXY readies SkillXY", you can interrupt it with Shield Bash.
It's not 100%, but it's really reliable, I can stun 3/4 Inferno Drops that way.
The biggest flaw about it is, that unlike Inferno Drop, most abilitiies are way too hard to interrupt, just cause the abilities go off too fast to actually hit Shield Bash in time to interrupt it xD

But Inferno Drop takes forever to go off so you got enough time to try your luck^^

Edited, Aug 8th 2011 9:10pm by Shezard
#48 Aug 08 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
235 posts
Quote:
on topic. i think its really sad SE has such a problem with class balance. i just dont understand how or why they do certain things >.<


They don't have a problem with class balance. Its the players choice on how they want to tackle these things. Speed runs can be done without stacking mages or ranged characters. There is always going to be an "easier" method of doing things in every game, where understandably, people are going to try to adapt to those methods as much as they can. Its more of the players doing, not the devs. They could change it, but then there would be another easier way to do it. The biggest advantage to Archer.. in pretty much every MMO is that you don't have to worry about having a brain dead melee who is too dumb to get out of the way of the "danger" attacks.

Quote:
Is there no love for pugilist in these raids? ;(


Have seen a decent amount of PGLs tank the dungeon. MRDs too. Honestly, the boss fights seem to end much quicker with them as tanks over a GLA.

Edited, Aug 8th 2011 6:31pm by Scape13
____________________________


#49 Aug 08 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
ranged combat is always a problem in videogames. Being at ranged is just hands down a big advantage. Think about IRL. Why do we fight all with guns now? Why does basically every fighting force use ranged combat even for infantry? Because its a massive advantage over going hand to hand. So in videogames they sort of have to invent a reason why you still want melee. Even WoW who is arguably better balanced from time to time forgets that melee have a big disadvantage and builds encounters where they forget to add in a reason why ranged aren't hands-down better.
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#50 Aug 08 2011 at 10:46 PM Rating: Good
*
176 posts
digitalcraft wrote:
ranged combat is always a problem in videogames. Being at ranged is just hands down a big advantage. Think about IRL. Why do we fight all with guns now? Why does basically every fighting force use ranged combat even for infantry? Because its a massive advantage over going hand to hand. So in videogames they sort of have to invent a reason why you still want melee. Even WoW who is arguably better balanced from time to time forgets that melee have a big disadvantage and builds encounters where they forget to add in a reason why ranged aren't hands-down better.

But XIV doesn't take place in Real Life, nor does it take place in an age where guns are freely available.

And the invading Garlean Empire has Magitek armors that shoot 'Laser Beams', and even though it's been like 10 years since their invading force suddenly vanished, leaving a bunch of Adventurers with nothing to do but craft all day, I'd say we're pretty much screwed once they actually decide to resume their invasion on our continent.

Edited, Aug 9th 2011 12:53am by Riniaru
____________________________

TERA looks tasty...
#51 Aug 08 2011 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Stalker Riniaru wrote:
nor does it take place in an age where guns are freely available.
Musketeers are in the game and it's a matter of time until they get released as a playable class. Just saying.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 11 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (11)