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Synthesis Recipe Revisions (08/18/2011)Follow

#1 Aug 18 2011 at 3:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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The following thread located under “Updates” in the Official FINAL FANTASY XIV Forums has been updated:

[dev1016] Synthesis Recipe Revisions

Proceed to the Lodestone thread.
#2 Aug 18 2011 at 3:22 AM Rating: Good
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Sounds awesome :)
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#3 Aug 18 2011 at 3:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Nice now i can make some gear w/o searching for TONS of mats. TY SE!!!!! 1.19 can not get here soon enough.
#4 Aug 18 2011 at 3:35 AM Rating: Good
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Looks great.

I found it a bit odd that I haven't actually crafted anything in this game other than to complete leves, in over 3 months.
And that my crafts are all at ~25 (except for Cooking, **** cooking).

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 3:40am by Kirby
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#5 Aug 18 2011 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Halleluyah!!!
Finally they will allow us to actually craft, and not spend days of hoarding materials just for that stupid missing hempen fent sleeve piece No. 1324 (light blue, with a hint of ochre and yellow spots).

#6 Aug 18 2011 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Double post, sorry.



Edited, Aug 18th 2011 6:08am by Rinsui
#7 Aug 18 2011 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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Don't so much mind the simplefying of the recepies but doing away with secondary skill requirememnts and training book I think is just counter productive. In a part of game that most people will say it's too easy to craft, lowering the requirements will only make it less chalenging.
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#8 Aug 18 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Win in my book. I might be motivated to work on crafts with these changes.


Quote:
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements
Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.


Most excited about the facility/book/sub craft change. **** near failed Limonite > Iron Nuggets and Bronze Nails despite being well over required rank because of this.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 6:59am by Sephrick
#9 Aug 18 2011 at 5:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder if items will become more available as a result of this, since they will be easier to make.
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#10 Aug 18 2011 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I wonder if items will become more available as a result of this, since they will be easier to make.



I certainly hope so. The economy in the game is so out of whack right now due o the vast amount of materials required for anything.

I think this will see a lot more crafter-made items floating around.

The biggest challenge they face is that the game's population is top heavy and most have rewards from Darkhold. It'll be interesting to see what kind of items come out to make people want to spend gil on slots they already have filled with high-ranking items.
#11 Aug 18 2011 at 5:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know at least noobs like me will be able to get gear easier as we work our way up.
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#12 Aug 18 2011 at 5:32 AM Rating: Excellent
I guess I better use up all of my cotton dye before the universal ones come out. Anyone on Rabanstre want to buy 300 bolts of blue cotton?
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#13 Aug 18 2011 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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This may be the change that gets me back into the game...I haven't played for a few months now awaiting the more 'meaty' updates. 1.18 was nice...1.19 is starting to look like it may gain my interest again.
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#14 Aug 18 2011 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
Win in my book. I might be motivated to work on crafts with these changes.


Quote:
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements
Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.


Most excited about the facility/book/sub craft change. **** near failed Limonite > Iron Nuggets and Bronze Nails despite being well over required rank because of this.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 6:59am by Sephrick


lol for easy mode requests....

Does anyone actually play games for the chalenge of it?

Most people will say that they play games because they are fun but I disagree. If all people were looking for was fun they they would probbaly be playing Zinga (Facebook) games. Especially people that play RBGs are looking for a chalenge (or at least they used to) but it seems that noadays if a game is made eisier then everyone aplauds the producer but if made hard everyone just crys out Nerf.

If we as a player base keep looking foward to easy games then it will be down to us the reason why games will be less chalenging, engaging. Most people here will say that one of the major faults with FFXIII was the way combat was simplified (along with the corridor storyline) but isn't it the same thing we now experiencing in crafting in FFXIV?

I have no problem in reducing the mats on some of the recepies. What I disagree is making the actual ability to craft easier. For starters we shouldn't be able to craft synths 9 ranks above us, nevermind safelly grind on recepies 4-7 ranks above us. The requirememnts for sub crafts were one fo the few things that would diferentiate a "career" crafter from people who just got bored of fighting or found the need to craft. I think you could consider this as being able to equip abilities from other classes in DoW/M.

The requirememnts for facilities I think are mostly there to spread out the comunity between cities adding more reason for leatherworkers to be in Gridania and Armourers to be in Limsa. By removing this need there is now one less reason to leave Ul'Dah.
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#15 Aug 18 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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The removal of parts is ok, although it takes out some of the atmosphere of crafting.
I wouldn't remove all of them though.

Let's take an Iron Haubergeon for example.
If they removed every step except for the base materials it could look something like this:
1x Undyed Canvas
1x Brass Nugget
3x Iron Ingots
1x Square of Dodo Leather

If they just simplified the process though, it could look like this:
1x Undyed Canvas
1x Brass Buckle <- 1x Brass Nugget
6x Iron Chains <- 3x Iron Ingots
1x Square of Dodo Leather

Removing trainings is a bad choice though. They really make a difference and are pretty easy to get now with the increased ammount of guild points you get from local leves.
Crafting facilities with their different levels are kinda annoying though and require alot of traveling.
The universal dyes are a nice thing.

What I'd like to know would be what kind of influence stats like craftsmanship, mag. craftsmanship, control, output, perception and gathering really have. Not just the vague description.

However, these are exciting news for us crafters and 1.19 can't come fast enough. ^^
I'll just see these changes as the first step to improve crafting.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 2:44pm by RidingBean
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#16 Aug 18 2011 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Win in my book. I might be motivated to work on crafts with these changes.


Quote:
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements
Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.


Most excited about the facility/book/sub craft change. **** near failed Limonite > Iron Nuggets and Bronze Nails despite being well over required rank because of this.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 6:59am by Sephrick


lol for easy mode requests....

Does anyone actually play games for the chalenge of it?

Most people will say that they play games because they are fun but I disagree. If all people were looking for was fun they they would probbaly be playing Zinga (Facebook) games. Especially people that play RBGs are looking for a chalenge (or at least they used to) but it seems that noadays if a game is made eisier then everyone aplauds the producer but if made hard everyone just crys out Nerf.

If we as a player base keep looking foward to easy games then it will be down to us the reason why games will be less chalenging, engaging. Most people here will say that one of the major faults with FFXIII was the way combat was simplified (along with the corridor storyline) but isn't it the same thing we now experiencing in crafting in FFXIV?

I have no problem in reducing the mats on some of the recepies. What I disagree is making the actual ability to craft easier. For starters we shouldn't be able to craft synths 9 ranks above us, nevermind safelly grind on recepies 4-7 ranks above us. The requirememnts for sub crafts were one fo the few things that would diferentiate a "career" crafter from people who just got bored of fighting or found the need to craft. I think you could consider this as being able to equip abilities from other classes in DoW/M.

The requirememnts for facilities I think are mostly there to spread out the comunity between cities adding more reason for leatherworkers to be in Gridania and Armourers to be in Limsa. By removing this need there is now one less reason to leave Ul'Dah.


The crafting system has always been easy and unchallenging, these changes won't make it any easier or less challanging at all they will just make it less complex, maybe you find spamming the action button hard, if so I pity you.
This game is being changed to appeal to the majority not to a handful of elitest people who see themselves as career crafters. No offence but if you and a few others quit over this I doubt you will be missed.
#17 Aug 18 2011 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't/don't mind the logic behind Guild Facilities, in fact the state of them as is would be alleviated greatly simply having new travel options (ie. Airship/Chocobo). They did state they're considering other uses for these.

The 'Part' system needed to be abolished. It was a mess, and without a lot of logic. This update alone makes the crafting system update a huge move in the right direction. The Part system would have been more logical it wasn't so cross-craft dependent and the levels made sense.

Same thoughts with secondary craft requirements. It isn't a bad thing, it was implemented poorly. It makes sense to assume that a Clothcrafter utilizing Leather would require at least "some" knowledge of Tanning. However (in line with the Part system), you shouldn't need to be a Master Tanner to simply sew a piece of leather to your garmet...you should be a Master to create that piece of leather. I wish they would keep this system, but tweak it to embrace more functionality and common sense with it's application to the recipes.

There's a lot of people that wanted changes, but didn't want easy mode crafting. As it is, though, the crafting system is not what it was hyped to be throughout development. Players thought crafters would have logical placement in the battle scenario...giving weight to the "career" crafter. That system was never created, crafts are simply that...crafts. Much like FFXI, but with more functional gathering systems in place. And that works, given the fact that the retainer/market wards system didn't work out the way it was intended either. I like a challenge, but not if it doesn't make any sense and provides no reward. Otherwise, it's not a challenge...it's just illogical and useless.
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#18 Aug 18 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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RidingBean wrote:
What I'd like to know would be what kind of influence stats like craftsmanship, mag. craftsmanship, control, output, perception and gathering really have. Not just the vague description.


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=68a976070fb46c2ed83f68262cd60297764e72e0

Quote:
Q. What do the crafter-related attributes Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanhip, and Control each do?
A. Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship. Control helps to reduce the occurrence of aetherial sparking (see below), and exerts its influence over both types of recipes just mentioned.


I can't find a quote but to me knowledge the tha ammount of main stats (Str, Vit. Mnd) will influence on quality depending on which Tool you are using. As such the more Vitality you have the better chance of obtaining more quality using your ARM main Tool while using Strength will increase the chance of obtaining better quality while using ARM off hand tool.

NumptyHunter wrote:
The crafting system has always been easy and unchallenging, these changes won't make it any easier or less challanging at all they will just make it less complex, maybe you find spamming the action button hard, if so I pity you.
This game is being changed to appeal to the majority not to a handful of elitest people who see themselves as career crafters. No offence but if you and a few others quit over this I doubt you will be missed.


I never said that I thought that spaming the action button was hard, if you actually read the quote you posted ...

Hugus wrote:
What I disagree is making the actual ability to craft easier. For starters we shouldn't be able to craft synths 9 ranks above us, nevermind safelly grind on recepies 4-7 ranks above us


... you would have noticed that I find the current system already too easy. By removing sub crafts and book training SE is making an already easy system even easier and I disagree with this move, that was my point.
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#19 Aug 18 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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@ Hagus
The crafting system will still require the same very low degree of skill, so it is not getting easier, it is just getting less time consuming, yes there will be some loss of immersion from simplifying the process but that is not related to difficulty.

I refer to the way in which you began your post:

Quote:
lol for easy mode requests....

Does anyone actually play games for the chalenge of it?


You were clearly talking about skill and not ease of use please don't pretend that your definition of what constitutes easy is not related to difficutly level when you have used the terms "easy mode" and "challenge".
Time consuming does not = difficulty.
Difficulty in an MMO comes from having to think and react quickly, the crafting system requires neither and these changes do nothing to impact that.

#20 Aug 18 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I am liking what i am seeing. The removal of books and secondary skills, as well as simple crafts is a double edged sword, how ever from were i stand it's quite welcome and fairly exiting.
I know people will Q.Q it's too easy, however like any other info given wait till you try it before jumping to conclusions.
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#21 Aug 18 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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So...am I gonna get reimbursed for the millions of points it took for me to get all books? I'm not done reading them yet!
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#22 Aug 18 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Win in my book. I might be motivated to work on crafts with these changes.


Quote:
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements
Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.


Most excited about the facility/book/sub craft change. **** near failed Limonite > Iron Nuggets and Bronze Nails despite being well over required rank because of this.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 6:59am by Sephrick


lol for easy mode requests....

Does anyone actually play games for the chalenge of it?

Most people will say that they play games because they are fun but I disagree. If all people were looking for was fun they they would probbaly be playing Zinga (Facebook) games. Especially people that play RBGs are looking for a chalenge (or at least they used to) but it seems that noadays if a game is made eisier then everyone aplauds the producer but if made hard everyone just crys out Nerf.

If we as a player base keep looking foward to easy games then it will be down to us the reason why games will be less chalenging, engaging. Most people here will say that one of the major faults with FFXIII was the way combat was simplified (along with the corridor storyline) but isn't it the same thing we now experiencing in crafting in FFXIV?

I have no problem in reducing the mats on some of the recepies. What I disagree is making the actual ability to craft easier. For starters we shouldn't be able to craft synths 9 ranks above us, nevermind safelly grind on recepies 4-7 ranks above us. The requirememnts for sub crafts were one fo the few things that would diferentiate a "career" crafter from people who just got bored of fighting or found the need to craft. I think you could consider this as being able to equip abilities from other classes in DoW/M.

The requirememnts for facilities I think are mostly there to spread out the comunity between cities adding more reason for leatherworkers to be in Gridania and Armourers to be in Limsa. By removing this need there is now one less reason to leave Ul'Dah.


Why does desire for sensible progression equate a want for "easy mode?"

Timesinks do not equate challenge.

Why should a R15 synth require a treatise and mid-level guild support for mere success? It should build to a point where books, support and friends from other crafts are required. Instead we're expected to jump in the deep end.

Books aren't that easy to acquire either. I've done gld, bsm and arm to 18 on leves alone and still don't have enough marks in any of them for a single book.

People are freaking out -- mostly on the official forums -- because a low level example was reduced my two whole ingredients. They said, in red text so it stands out, that they're developing new ways for sub crafts, books and guild support to matter. But just like removing battle regimines between 1.19 and 1.20, these changes are a necessary part of the growing pains of XIV becoming something better.

YP and crew have to do things a but at a time, elsewise nothing will have been changed at all.
#23 Aug 18 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
"While there are numerous types of materials and parts in existence, low market demand has resulted in shortages for a large number of items. In addressing this problem, we will gradually do away with intermediate materials that find little use, leaving only those that are central to synthesis. At the same time, we will narrow the gap between the requirements to equip and synthesize gear (across all steps)."

Ok, I need to get mah rageface on for a moment. IF THEY HAD A WORKING EFFING AH THIS WOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM!!! D: No, they are not fixing the problem, they are sticking a bandaid on one symptom and hoping people won't notice.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 7:28am by digitalcraft
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#24 Aug 18 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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•Simplified Color Customization. I gave up on this the 1st month after launch. you need a high rank dye for a high rank part to use on a low rank item.
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#25 Aug 18 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Call me crazy but I like the idea of the parts. Maybe not to the extent that SE has done it, but to some extent.

For example making a dagger requires a grip (carpentry) and a blade (blacksmith). That makes sense and is acceptable IMO.

Some clothcraft/weaving items, however, require too many parts - front piece, back piece, sleeves, hood... etc. I look forward to that being fixed to X threads + Y cloths = clothing piece. Add in buckles and such to more advanced gear pieces and I'm ok with that.

The way to make colored gear seemed too complex (although I admit I haven't done any colored crafting yet) so having dyes should be a nice fix to that. Imagine going to a vendor NPC and buying whatever dye color(s) you want and viola you have the colored item you want. Having that customization will be a nice change from FFXI's uniform color system where you have all the elites wearing the new gear that just got released and everyone looks the same. Could be cool to have everyone in your LS wearing the same colored gear though.

Also the way they implemented durability, quality, progress is interesting and makes it so you aren't just spam crafting like you could do in FFXI. The shortcuts for the synths is nice too, be it a requested item or recently crafted. Could be nice for them to expand the recently crafted to encompass all items you've made with the 3 most recent at the top or something.

I definitely agree that the retainer system is a complete waste and wish they'd just go to the AH system of FFXI. searching for things is ok but having to bounce between wards is horribly tedious and just a monumental waste of time. I'm all for trying new things but I think most people will agree that the retainer system just hasn't worked out.

All in all I'm liking the 1.18 patch and look forward to continued improvement through 1.19 and 1.20.
#26 Aug 18 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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NumptyHunter wrote:
@ Hagus
The crafting system will still require the same very low degree of skill, so it is not getting easier, it is just getting less time consuming, yes there will be some loss of immersion from simplifying the process but that is not related to difficulty.

I refer to the way in which you began your post:

Quote:
lol for easy mode requests....

Does anyone actually play games for the chalenge of it?


You were clearly talking about skill and not ease of use please don't pretend that your definition of what constitutes easy is not related to difficutly level when you have used the terms "easy mode" and "challenge".
Time consuming does not = difficulty.
Difficulty in an MMO comes from having to think and react quickly, the crafting system requires neither and these changes do nothing to impact that.


I disagree, in my opinion (and in PvE) dificulty comes from being prepared and working things out beforehand. Personally, I much prefer a game that makes me think about tactics than just rely on quick reflexes, if I was to look for that kind of chalenge I would play a First Person Shooter. I much prefer to consider which abilities to put in my bar so that I can avail of them (whether that is fighting or crafting), consider how to alocate my jewlery points to best benefit my character, decide which training books/abilities to purchase asap and which to leave behind. To this day I have about 90K Mining Guild without ever having bought POrospect III sumply because I decided to save up GM to go and purchase Prospect IV first.

This is the kind of chalenge that I enjoy, not really having good reflexes but having to think ahead to preceed ingame. In my opinion the removal of training books takes out another need to think and just go ahead and spam the action button as you put it.

Sephrick wrote:
Why should a R15 synth require a treatise and mid-level guild support for mere success? It should build to a point where books, support and friends from other crafts are required. Instead we're expected to jump in the deep end.


I understand that some might be very incovenient like Ore into nuggets requiring both facilities and smelting training but this would once again lead you to use the facilities available in the BS guild (which makes sense because of the mass production result) helping out spreading the population and the book required would mean you need to prioritize where to spend your Guildmarks. Personally i find it much harder to understand why a r12 (i think) synth requires Fire Crystals instead of Shards than I do why it requires facilities and training.

Sephrick wrote:
Books aren't that easy to acquire either. I've done gld, bsm and arm to 18 on leves alone and still don't have enough marks in any of them for a single book.


I will have to once again disagree with you here, at rank 18 you are not really supposed to have any training, please remember that Guild Marks were only suposed to be available at r20 leves and were later on also available for r15. Even so if you are doing 3 leves a reset in the appropriate city you should still get an average of 500 Guild Marks per reset.
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#27 Aug 18 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Holy change, Batman.

This is a pretty bold move they're taking. I wonder just how much effect it will have on crafters XPing, as intermediary items have often been the best source of skill ups at various levels.

I'm actually looking forward to the change. While I never had problems with the older system, I know that I am in the minority who did so and enjoyed leveling all DoH classes.
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#28 Aug 18 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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@Hugus

I agree with you 100%. I like the simplifications they are making to require less parts for the finished items but I disagree with removing the benefits of cross-class skills, guild support, and training books. It removes a lot of the challenge and tactics involved in crafting. Not having the above support doesn't mean automatic failure either... but lacking them does make the synth much harder if you are not well over the required level. I think this makes a lot of sense.

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#29 Aug 18 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh thank GOD!
Sounds like a godsend, coming from someone whose crafting classes are higher than most my combat classes.
#30 Aug 18 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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I fail to understand a few complaints over the upcoming change.

First: Immersion, whats with people wanting the game to be as realistic, as reality? it's a game, if you want to make a suit of armor realistically grab a rubber mallet some sheet metal and have at it. Am happy with in game 3chain + 3ingots = 1 armor.

Second: Why is lowering the time consumption equal = easy mode? I just cant make the connection. As is it's easy and time consuming, 1.19 easy and not as time consuming.

Nearly all complaint for this change seem like grief that person X and Y, had to do it the hard way, and A and B will have smoother sailing.
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#31 Aug 18 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
but I disagree with removing the benefits of cross-class skills, guild support, and training books.


Again, they're removing them temporarily.

Temporarily.

They took the time to highlight the fact that in the future, they will have new uses for a reason. People are so **** dramatic.
#32 Aug 18 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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SO DISSAPOINT.

I realize I am in the super-minority here but...

What the ****? Getting access to new treatises was the entire reason I did guildleves, and perhaps the most exciting part of crafting. (God knows pressing standard, standard, skill, standard, standard... certainly is not very exciting.)

For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?

While others may start crafting more, I think this is going to be the end for me. Finished products are going to be worth dirt once these changes come into effect. I could understand some minor changes to nonsensical subcrafts here and there, and ridiculous level requirements... But this is really sad.

Making everything brainless and simple doesn't make it fun. This isn't just a step in the wrong direction, it's a giant leaping bound. How about concentrating on making the act of synthesis fun, and more things for crafting players to do.

If you haven't already realized it, this is a sign that crafting classes are going to be reduced to professions before long, and dropped from support as being full time classes. This is the final seal on that deal.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 10:17am by RamseySylph
#33 Aug 18 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:
SO DISSAPOINT.
What the ****? Getting access to new treatises was the entire reason I did guildleves, and perhaps the most exciting part of crafting. (God knows pressing standard, standard, skill, standard, standard... certainly is not very exciting.)


1)Books and Skills will be TEMPORAEILY suspended NOT removed

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make something despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


2)There was NO difficulty in crafting my BSM and ARM are 50 and it's a joke

Quote:
While others may start crafting more, I think this is going to be the end for me. Finished products are going to be worth dirt once these changes come into effect. I could understand some minor changes to nonsensical subcrafts here and there, and ridiculous level requirements... But this is really sad.


Only the crap people over price will be dirt cheep, craft something rare, that requires special mats that will maintain it's price.

Quote:
Making everything brainless and simple doesn't make it fun. This isn't just a step in the wrong direction, it's a giant leaping bound. How about concentrating on making the act of synthesis fun, and more things for crafting players to do.


4) This is a step to make things better, crafting is already "brainless and simple"

Quote:
If you haven't already realized it, this is a sign that crafting classes are going to be reduced to professions before long, and dropped from support as being full time classes. This is the final seal on that deal.


5) And your point is, the game is changing and will keep changing. Adjust or drop out.



Edited, Aug 18th 2011 1:23pm by TwiddleDee
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#34 Aug 18 2011 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:

Again, they're removing them temporarily.

Temporarily.

They took the time to highlight the fact that in the future, they will have new uses for a reason. People are so **** dramatic.


Just to re-iterate: Removal of books/facilities is temporary. He clearly said they're going to re-work them back into the game at some point. Right now they're simply a requirement for some recipes. They don't add anything, they don't make crafting any different. They're just another hurdle. Hopefully they'll be re-introduced with some unique content that's not just "Acquire X book and Y facility or you fail this synth".
#35 Aug 18 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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TwiddleDee wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
SO DISSAPOINT.
What the ****? Getting access to new treatises was the entire reason I did guildleves, and perhaps the most exciting part of crafting. (God knows pressing standard, standard, skill, standard, standard... certainly is not very exciting.)


1)Books and Skills will be TEMPORAEILY suspended NOT removed

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make something despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


2)There was NO difficulty in crafting my BSM and ARM are 50 and it's a joke

Quote:
While others may start crafting more, I think this is going to be the end for me. Finished products are going to be worth dirt once these changes come into effect. I could understand some minor changes to nonsensical subcrafts here and there, and ridiculous level requirements... But this is really sad.


Only the crap people over price will be dirt cheep, craft something rare, that requires special mats that will maintain it's price.


Temporarily removed or not, their role will be something else in the future. I was excited to get sheeting training because it allowed me to craft platemail.

You're right, grinding levels was not difficult, so why the change? I was indicating that making finished items was difficult, then again that's because I make finished items 5-7 levels under-leveled, it's the only thing remotely thrilling about crafting.

More importantly, making a finished item held a sense of accomplishment. That is totally gone now. What used to be a process of making parts and requiring subcrafts to make platemail for instance, will now just be oh... Well I want some platemail, let me just turn these ingots into platemail. DONE.

Exciting? No. Simple and easy? Yes. Gone is any sense of build up. Armor is not made in an instant, but this brings us one giant leap further into abstraction of crafting, which means they're nailing the coffin shut on crafting being a supported play style.

And yes, all finished products will drop in price dramatically, not only because more people will craft (that's a good thing actually) but because none will require subcrafts, and they can all be lazily and easily made now. Yes sure, the scorpion harnesses and dusk gloves of this game (whenever those come out) will still be worth something, but gone will be any sense of propriety and accomplishment with making good items out of normal materials. It will be FFXI's crafting system all over again. (Professions.)


Edit:

Here's the crux: Because crafting does not require any actual skill of any kind, subcraft requirements, training requirements and the ability to assemble the various parts, was in fact the skill of the entire process. Crafters needed plenty of patience, and the right techniques and skills mastered.

I realize not everyone likes that, you'd like to be able to turn 5 ingots into a breastplate, you can all be happy now, hurrah. Craft to your hearts content. The fun is gone for others though, and honestly, I still believe that they should have been investing resources into making crafting more enjoyable as an activity, and adding things to make the classes more enjoyable and unique outside of actual synthesis, but all chances of that are gone.

TwiddleDee wrote:

Quote:
If you haven't already realized it, this is a sign that crafting classes are going to be reduced to professions before long, and dropped from support as being full time classes. This is the final seal on that deal.


5) And your point is, the game is changing and will keep changing. Adjust or drop out.



Edited, Aug 18th 2011 1:23pm by TwiddleDee


Yeah, this argument is totally top-notch. "They're going to keep removing styles of play some players enjoy, deal with it and GTFO."

I will keep playing, for the story and combat, but I'm done with crafting once these changes go through. The reality is, the original design vision that they were constantly parading was that DoH and DoL would get support and new content and be a viable way of experiencing the game. Albeit perhaps a different part of the game, but equivalent in content and fun to the combat classes.

Up until now, we've been teetering on the edge wondering if they're going to drop that commitment (like many other bold commitments that were once made) and this is the final seal on that decision. It's disappointing for those of us who wanted this game's handling of crafting to be successful.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 10:40am by RamseySylph
#36 Aug 18 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.
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#37 Aug 18 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Just to re-iterate: Removal of books/facilities is temporary. He clearly said they're going to re-work them back into the game at some point. Right now they're simply a requirement for some recipes. They don't add anything, they don't make crafting any different. They're just another hurdle. Hopefully they'll be re-introduced with some unique content that's not just "Acquire X book and Y facility or you fail this synth".


Sorry to get a bit off track but I just wanted to clarify one thing...

Who says that the cross-class skills, support, and books are REQUIRED? I synth stuff all the time where the items are either above my rank, I lack the optimal cross class skill, don't have support, or don't have the training book. Yes, it is much harder to do and you have to use your abilities wisely and not just spam the enter key, but it is still possible. Lacking a training book or guild support does not mean automatic failure.

More on track...

I hope that when they re-introduce the effects of support, cross class skills, and training it adds a measurable benefit such as improving quality gains or increasing HQ chances. I would be very happy with this.

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#38 Aug 18 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.


You're going to use hyperbole as an argument? This is clearly not true. There's about a one in a thousand chance that you'd fail a synth 10 ranks above it, with all the required support. And that's IF you go AFK through the entire thing.

I made a full set of bronze platemail with only sheeting training (they each require an additional training) at rank 23, with both the required subcrafts at 10 instead of 15. I broke the gloves once, and they were all dangerously close to breaking even when I succeed, but it was totally possible.

Scavenger9 wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Just to re-iterate: Removal of books/facilities is temporary. He clearly said they're going to re-work them back into the game at some point. Right now they're simply a requirement for some recipes. They don't add anything, they don't make crafting any different. They're just another hurdle. Hopefully they'll be re-introduced with some unique content that's not just "Acquire X book and Y facility or you fail this synth".


Sorry to get a bit off track but I just wanted to clarify one thing...

Who says that the cross-class skills, support, and books are REQUIRED? I synth stuff all the time where the items are either above my rank, I lack the optimal cross class skill, don't have support, or don't have the training book. Yes, it is much harder to do and you have to use your abilities wisely and not just spam the enter key, but it is still possible. Lacking a training book or guild support does not mean automatic failure.


This.


Edited, Aug 18th 2011 10:54am by RamseySylph
#39 Aug 18 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
Universal dyes at last!

I wonder if this will be applied a creation, or if you can actually change a completed garment from one color to the next and back again.

I would prefer the latter.
#40 Aug 18 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.


You're going to use hyperbole as an argument? This is clearly not true. There's about a one in a thousand change that you'd fail a synth 10 ranks above it, with all the required support. And that's IF you go AFK through the entire thing.

I made a full set of bronze platemail with only sheeting training (they each require an additional training) at rank 23, with both the required subcrafts at 10 instead of 15. I broke the gloves once, and they were all dangerously close to breaking even when I succeed, but it was totally possible.


Perhaps that was hyperbole on my part, but my point was more of speaking for all of us who still enjoy crafting.

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty.


As someone who does enjoy crafting, I'm included in the "us" you're talking about here. However, I disagree that the only fun part about it is pulling off a difficult synth. As I said before, my enjoyment from crafting comes from being able to make things for myself and my friends regardless of how difficult it is. I also disagree that it was difficult in the first place as I found it to be tedious instead. Like I said before, if you enjoy the system as is, that's fine. But speak for youself and not for those of us who still enjoy crafting.
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#41 Aug 18 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,962 posts
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.


You're going to use hyperbole as an argument? This is clearly not true. There's about a one in a thousand change that you'd fail a synth 10 ranks above it, with all the required support. And that's IF you go AFK through the entire thing.

I made a full set of bronze platemail with only sheeting training (they each require an additional training) at rank 23, with both the required subcrafts at 10 instead of 15. I broke the gloves once, and they were all dangerously close to breaking even when I succeed, but it was totally possible.


Perhaps that was hyperbole on my part, but my point was more of speaking for all of us who still enjoy crafting.

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty.


As someone who does enjoy crafting, I'm included in the "us" you're talking about here. However, I disagree that the only fun part about it is pulling off a difficult synth. As I said before, my enjoyment from crafting comes from being able to make things for myself and my friends regardless of how difficult it is. I also disagree that it was difficult in the first place as I found it to be tedious instead. Like I said before, if you enjoy the system as is, that's fine. But speak for youself and not for those of us who still enjoy crafting.


Let me add a little footnote to my original comment, I also find much of crafting tedious. They're not removing the tedium, they're removing the complexity.

They're not fixing the complexity, they're removing it. This is a sure sign that they've given up on the idea of complexity. This means they're not as invested in the idea of crafting being its own independent complex system. This means, crafting is going to take a back seat role. If you're happy with this, more power to you, I hold no grudge.

I am a little annoyed that SE can't follow through on their commitment though. I let slide the entire armory system being a complete flop when compared to what it was meant to be, because it didn't fundamentally undermine my ability to enjoy the game as a combat class.

If we had seen them take an honest pass at fixing the complexity, by adding some kind of additional storage, player workshops, better tools for mass production, etc. that qualitatively did the same thing as this patch. (Made things less tedious) then I'd be happy, even if it did in fact make things easier. I want crafting to be enjoyable.

I enjoy crafting gear for friends as much as the next person, I do it frequently, for free. Because I can make gil selling hard to craft items with difficult skill requirements. FFXIV's crafting will become FFXI's crafting, gil will only be made through the tedious and constant selling of consumables, or the giant investment items like scorpion harnesses. Everything else will be sold at a loss.




PS. Oh hey, guess what else! This is actually going to make ranking up crafting qualitatively and quantitatively worse. If you can't see why, you must not craft. 90% of the good methods of skilling up revolve around producing countless intermediary parts. One more reason in the giant list of reasons that finished products are going to plummet in price, when old recipes are removed, people are going to have to skill up on them.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 11:07am by RamseySylph
#42 Aug 18 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
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Looks like two steps in the right direction to me. :D
#43 Aug 18 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm happy about this but its sort of odd.

I always thought the reason why crafting was so complex was that they were trying to have some purpose behind making Crafting trades actual Classes on par with DoW. With this change, they've taken one of the differentiators out of the picture making DoH less like a real class and more like a hobby like it was in FFXI. I hope that they think of other ways to bring back unique ways to bolster DoH (and DoL) and make them as exciting and unique as DoW - which I always thought was the original intention of having them be unique classes on their own.
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#44 Aug 18 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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RamseySylph wrote:
PS. Oh hey, guess what else! This is actually going to make ranking up crafting qualitatively and quantitatively worse. If you can't see why, you must not craft. 90% of the good methods of skilling up revolve around producing countless intermediary parts. One more reason in the giant list of reasons that finished products are going to plummet in price, when old recipes are removed, people are going to have to skill up on them.


I do agree here, base mats staying the same, but intermediate steps gone means instead of getting 3000sp from start to final, you'll get 500 for final from same mats.

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#45 Aug 18 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.


You're going to use hyperbole as an argument? This is clearly not true. There's about a one in a thousand change that you'd fail a synth 10 ranks above it, with all the required support. And that's IF you go AFK through the entire thing.

I made a full set of bronze platemail with only sheeting training (they each require an additional training) at rank 23, with both the required subcrafts at 10 instead of 15. I broke the gloves once, and they were all dangerously close to breaking even when I succeed, but it was totally possible.


Perhaps that was hyperbole on my part, but my point was more of speaking for all of us who still enjoy crafting.

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty.


As someone who does enjoy crafting, I'm included in the "us" you're talking about here. However, I disagree that the only fun part about it is pulling off a difficult synth. As I said before, my enjoyment from crafting comes from being able to make things for myself and my friends regardless of how difficult it is. I also disagree that it was difficult in the first place as I found it to be tedious instead. Like I said before, if you enjoy the system as is, that's fine. But speak for youself and not for those of us who still enjoy crafting.


Let me add a little footnote to my original comment, I also find much of crafting tedious. They're not removing the tedium, they're removing the complexity.

They're not fixing the complexity, they're removing it. This is a sure sign that they've given up on the idea of complexity. This means they're not as invested in the idea of crafting being its own independent complex system. This means, crafting is going to take a back seat role. If you're happy with this, more power to you, I hold no grudge.

I am a little annoyed that SE can't follow through on their commitment though. I let slide the entire armory system being a complete flop when compared to what it was meant to be, because it didn't fundamentally undermine my ability to enjoy the game as a combat class.

If we had seen them take an honest pass at fixing the complexity, by adding some kind of additional storage, player workshops, better tools for mass production, etc. that qualitatively did the same thing as this patch. (Made things less tedious) then I'd be happy, even if it did in fact make things easier. I want crafting to be enjoyable.

I enjoy crafting gear for friends as much as the next person, I do it frequently, for free. Because I can make gil selling hard to craft items with difficult skill requirements. FFXIV's crafting will become FFXI's crafting, gil will only be made through the tedious and constant selling of consumables, or the giant investment items like scorpion harnesses. Everything else will be sold at a loss.




PS. Oh hey, guess what else! This is actually going to make ranking up crafting qualitatively and quantitatively worse. If you can't see why, you must not craft. 90% of the good methods of skilling up revolve around producing countless intermediary parts. One more reason in the giant list of reasons that finished products are going to plummet in price, when old recipes are removed, people are going to have to skill up on them.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 11:07am by RamseySylph


Ahh okay. Now I see where you're coming from. Thanks for expanding on that. So what I'm gathering from this is that it isn't necessarily the removing of the material requirements that you're not happy with, but rather the overall reduction in the complexity of crafting classes as a whole. Now that I can understand and even agree with you on.

I think though that instead of having class complexity through having excessive steps involved the crafting process, I'd like to see crafters be involved in the game as more than just gear/repair bots. For example the thread (I believe it was your thread actually) about other ways to expand crafting. I will say though that I still disagree that the material requirements made crafting complex. I still believe it to be tedious, but eh, that's just a detail we will have to disagree on. I do agree with your overall premise of adding more depth to crafting classes, I just believe that there are other ways to do that aside from material requirements.
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#46 Aug 18 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwiddleDee wrote:
I do agree here, base mats staying the same, but intermediate steps gone means instead of getting 3000sp from start to final, you'll get 500 for final from same mats.

Worse, actually.

I can make 12 iron swallowtail arrowheads from 3 nuggets, and it gives me 500ish blacksmith SP.
I then make 12 cockatrice fletchings from 3 cockatrice feathers, and I don't really get SP it.
I make 12 ash arrowshafts from 3 ash branches, and I don't really get SP it.
I make 12 wing glue from 2 arhiman wings and 1 muddy water, and it gives me 500 alchemy SP.
I make 12 hempen warn from 2 moko grass and I don't really get SP it.
And then I make 333 arrows from 1 of each of those, for 500 sp.

So with 3 nuggets, 3 wings, 3 branches, 2 wings, 1 muddy water, 2 moko grass means I get 3,996 arrows (12*333), 6000 carpenter SP, 500 blacksmith SP, some weaver SP and 500 alchemist SP.

Assuming they change the recipe to something like:
333 arrows = 1 nugget, 1 branch, 1 feather
That would mean that with 3 nuggets, 3 branches and 3 feathers, I'll get 999 arrows, 1500 carpenter SP and nothing else.

Easier to get the mats, easier to make the arrows, no need to bother LSmates or search the wards, but seriously, that's a pretty big change.

Perhaps they'll make arrows craft 999 at a time by default, to offset the change.


Am I mad about the change? No.. I'll adapt, and find ways to grind my ranks anyway. But it's going to take some time to figure out the new way.
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#47 Aug 18 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Lantesh wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty. They've just made the entire thing easy mode, and destroyed and need for all these stupid books I spent months collecting?


Completely disagree. I enjoy crafting in this game and the fun part for me is being able to make things for both myself and my friends. The process to do that though was horribly over complicated. I had to make parts for parts for parts in order to make a whole, only to get that one troll synth that blows up in my face even though I'm 10 ranks higher and start the parts process all over again. All that managed to do was make me want to slam my face into my keyboard and flip my desk over. Also as already stated, they aren't trashing our skill books, only suspending them until they find a new use for them. If you enjoy crafting for the steep "difficulty" (I say that because it was more tedious than difficult) that's fine, but speak for yourself. As a crafter, I welcome these changes.


You're going to use hyperbole as an argument? This is clearly not true. There's about a one in a thousand change that you'd fail a synth 10 ranks above it, with all the required support. And that's IF you go AFK through the entire thing.

I made a full set of bronze platemail with only sheeting training (they each require an additional training) at rank 23, with both the required subcrafts at 10 instead of 15. I broke the gloves once, and they were all dangerously close to breaking even when I succeed, but it was totally possible.


Perhaps that was hyperbole on my part, but my point was more of speaking for all of us who still enjoy crafting.

Quote:
For those of us who already enjoyed crafting, the only fun part about it was being able to make some new item despite the steep difficulty.


As someone who does enjoy crafting, I'm included in the "us" you're talking about here. However, I disagree that the only fun part about it is pulling off a difficult synth. As I said before, my enjoyment from crafting comes from being able to make things for myself and my friends regardless of how difficult it is. I also disagree that it was difficult in the first place as I found it to be tedious instead. Like I said before, if you enjoy the system as is, that's fine. But speak for youself and not for those of us who still enjoy crafting.


Let me add a little footnote to my original comment, I also find much of crafting tedious. They're not removing the tedium, they're removing the complexity.

They're not fixing the complexity, they're removing it. This is a sure sign that they've given up on the idea of complexity. This means they're not as invested in the idea of crafting being its own independent complex system. This means, crafting is going to take a back seat role. If you're happy with this, more power to you, I hold no grudge.

I am a little annoyed that SE can't follow through on their commitment though. I let slide the entire armory system being a complete flop when compared to what it was meant to be, because it didn't fundamentally undermine my ability to enjoy the game as a combat class.

If we had seen them take an honest pass at fixing the complexity, by adding some kind of additional storage, player workshops, better tools for mass production, etc. that qualitatively did the same thing as this patch. (Made things less tedious) then I'd be happy, even if it did in fact make things easier. I want crafting to be enjoyable.

I enjoy crafting gear for friends as much as the next person, I do it frequently, for free. Because I can make gil selling hard to craft items with difficult skill requirements. FFXIV's crafting will become FFXI's crafting, gil will only be made through the tedious and constant selling of consumables, or the giant investment items like scorpion harnesses. Everything else will be sold at a loss.




PS. Oh hey, guess what else! This is actually going to make ranking up crafting qualitatively and quantitatively worse. If you can't see why, you must not craft. 90% of the good methods of skilling up revolve around producing countless intermediary parts. One more reason in the giant list of reasons that finished products are going to plummet in price, when old recipes are removed, people are going to have to skill up on them.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 11:07am by RamseySylph


Ahh okay. Now I see where you're coming from. Thanks for expanding on that. So what I'm gathering from this is that it isn't necessarily the removing of the material requirements that you're not happy with, but rather the overall reduction in the complexity of crafting classes as a whole. Now that I can understand and even agree with you on.

I think though that instead of having class complexity through having excessive steps involved the crafting process, I'd like to see crafters be involved in the game as more than just gear/repair bots. For example the thread (I believe it was your thread actually) about other ways to expand crafting. I will say though that I still disagree that the material requirements made crafting complex. I still believe it to be tedious, but eh, that's just a detail we will have to disagree on. I do agree with your overall premise of adding more depth to crafting classes, I just believe that there are other ways to do that aside from material requirements.


The problem is, removing these intermediary requirements is sending a very specific message.

Unless it was coupled with a 5 paragraph rant by Yoshi-P about how they're "planning to add all sorts of various new complex and compelling crafting systems" to the game to balance it out, the message it's sending is "you know that crafting stuff? It's easy now, enjoy."

The only way I would support the removal of intermediary items was is if it was accompanied by serious revisions to crafting. If I'm going to turn a ******* bar of metal and a piece of cloth into chainmail, I'd better be doing more than hammering an anvil for 10 seconds.

If finished product synthesis became a more elaborate process, perhaps even multi-stepped, where I had to assemble the rings, weave them together into a chain, etc. (Never making a new material, but all of this occurring as steps in the synth) that I could live with. That would be changing the complexity and removing the tedium and inventory vacuum. As it stands, they're simply removing the complexity, with nothing to take its place, and no word on anything in the pipes to do so either. And with the direction the games been headed, that's why I take this as the nail in the coffin for DoH classes being fully supported independent classes.
#48 Aug 18 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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I personally liked the all the non linnear/sandboxy aspects throughout the game. Armoury system, No auto attack, battle system realying heavily on positioning and movement, Marketwards, Crafting Class as something more than one click crafting, the land and hand minigames, robust and fully voiced personal story progression, endgame focused on variety over dungeon spam. I know that alot of those aspects needed huge refinement. Releasing the game unifinished and polished didn't help matters.

The current playerbase feels differently, they want something more attuned to XI. There is nothing wrong with that, why would SE listen to the few random whiners, when the majority wants something else. XI did alot of good things and I really enjoyed it for 7 years. However, I wanted a different experience to last me another some odd years.
In the end implementation will go with what the majority and SE wants. Either roll with the changes and keep adding suggestions. Keep playing and if at some point the game moves largely in a direction you don't like quit?

When the big changes are done and the ps3 release is done. Everyone will see if the direction the game took was the right one.
I personally will try out all the incoming mmos and then make a decision on which two fancy my playstyle most. To me it don't matter if a game has 100ksubs or 12 million. If I like a game and have someone to play with. That's the game I will be playing.

At least SE is being more visible and showing their intent lies in taking player feedback into consideration.
#49 Aug 18 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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Docent42 wrote:
Am I mad about the change? No.. I'll adapt, and find ways to grind my ranks anyway.


This.. enough said


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#50 Aug 18 2011 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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While I will agree the removal of sub craft requirements is a relief to the majority, I also have to admit it ****** me off on a personal level.

I sank 10s of millions and countless days ranking everything up (subs) to at least 35 so there was nothing I couldn't make AND have a good chance of HQing on my main craft. I won't even go into the toil of collecting all the treatsies I have. And in usual SE fashion, the nerf is accompanies by a silent "@#%^ your hard work in this area, we are too lazy to do any kind of adjustment without the use of a hatchet and/or oversized nerf bat".
Kinda wish I had that gil and time back after reading that part of the revision.

Simplifying the recipes would have been all they needed to do, and VERY welcome. But as usual it's either "leave it broken" or "kind of fix it, but break it in a new way" with both XI and XIVs dev teams.



Edited, Aug 18th 2011 3:38pm by Restyoneck
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#51 Aug 18 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Default
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Again...Yoshi and company are making the necessary steps to alter the game to help bring in new players and those who are on the fence, by making it more streamlined(easy) and more in-tune with today's avg MMO player. SE must eliminate potential roadblocks. An overly complex crafting system must be altered when you have non-existent economy with a very low player base. Those complaining must not understand that the needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many?

Without more players...who cares about any of this. The game just won't survive.

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