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Synthesis Recipe Revisions (08/18/2011)Follow

#52 Aug 18 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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I mostly welcome these changes... at Alc 30something I only have enough marks to buy 1 book! 1!

I haven't bought it yet, thank goodness.
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#53 Aug 18 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
Again...Yoshi and company are making the necessary steps to alter the game to help bring in new players and those who are on the fence, by making it more streamlined(easy) and more in-tune with today's avg MMO player. SE must eliminate potential roadblocks. An overly complex crafting system must be altered when you have non-existent economy with a very low player base. Those complaining must not understand that the needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many?

Without more players...who cares about any of this. The game just won't survive.



Not everyone is looking for everything to be easier, stupider and simpler. You must first understand your audience. Most people don't craft because it's just not fun. Those of you who are excited about these changes were those already on the fence about crafting (not about playing the game period) that or you have problems managing your inventory.

Regardless, this isn't going to make more people want to play the game. This isn't going to make crafting more fun. Is it going to make it easier to wrap your head around as a new player? Yes. But so would a recipe book, and better support for storage of items, better processes for mass producing low level materials, and more of the weight being thrown on the synthesis itself, than in completing a number of sub-materials.


Edited, Aug 18th 2011 12:47pm by RamseySylph
#54 Aug 18 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
The problem is, removing these intermediary requirements is sending a very specific message.

Unless it was coupled with a 5 paragraph rant by Yoshi-P about how they're "planning to add all sorts of various new complex and compelling crafting systems" to the game to balance it out, the message it's sending is "you know that crafting stuff? It's easy now, enjoy."

The only way I would support the removal of intermediary items was is if it was accompanied by serious revisions to crafting. If I'm going to turn a @#%^ing bar of metal and a piece of cloth into chainmail, I'd better be doing more than hammering an anvil for 10 seconds.

If finished product synthesis became a more elaborate process, perhaps even multi-stepped, where I had to assemble the rings, weave them together into a chain, etc. (Never making a new material, but all of this occurring as steps in the synth) that I could live with. That would be changing the complexity and removing the tedium and inventory vacuum. As it stands, they're simply removing the complexity, with nothing to take its place, and no word on anything in the pipes to do so either. And with the direction the games been headed, that's why I take this as the nail in the coffin for DoH classes being fully supported independent classes.


I think you might be reading a bit too much into it. I don't really see it as sending a specific message to crafters, but rather just streamlining the process. Turning a bar of metal and a piece of cloth into a full suit of chainmail might be too oversimplified, but personally I'm willing to suspend reality on that in favor of what I see to be a more streamlined process. After all, we are using magical energy cystals in their creation. I wouldn't mind having to make the rings first and then use that with the cloth to make the suit of chainmail though.

However, your idea of utilizing multiple steps in a single crafting process without having to create multiple materials is something I could get behind. It's the constant need for individual parts that puts me off and is what I find to be the tedious part. Even if I greatly outrank that item, I still have to gather up or create all these parts which I see to just be wasted time. If they could use a system like you outlined, I could deal with that.

While I can't deny that there is a possibility of DoH classes being dropped as fully supported independent classes, I'm not quite sure that the outlined changes to the system indicate that yet. I'm going to have to see what they do with our skill books first. If they end up making them useless even after figuring out what to do with them, then I'll be mad. I'm one book short of completing my collection, so if that ends up to be a wasted effort on my part, then I'll be on board.
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#55 Aug 18 2011 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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What the **** is this crap? Why are they dumbing this game down like WoW? What the ****?!

SE... we have known each other for quite some time now. I know that you might be trying to move in a different direction, but I had just become comfortable with you taking my money and beating me mercilessly with grinding and nearly impossible to find materials. Now it seems like you are trying to make crafting accessible instead of a maddening timesink. I'm not accustomed to this treatment and if I didn't know better, I'd say you are trying to make this game playable. What gives?

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#56 Aug 18 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
What the **** is this crap? Why are they dumbing this game down like WoW? What the ****?!

FFXI crafting recipe for scale mail:
Smithing (17)
■1 x Sheep Leather
■4 x Bronze Scales
■1 x Leather Vest
■1 x Cotton Thread

FFXIV crafting recipe for bronze scale mail:
Armorer (30), Leatherworker (25)
■1 x Brass Buckle
■1 x Antelope Sinew Cord
■1 x Red Ochre Buffalo Leather
■1 x Soot-black Buffalo Leather
■1 x Brass Plate
■1 x Bronze Scales

They might not be "dumbing it down like WoW" as much as dumbing it down like FFXI.

----

Also, for a certain time, we'll still be able to use the old recipes, which, like I have shown in a post earlier, should provide more products in exchange for more effort.

I'm actually warming up to that idea: you can craft it the "magical/FFXI" way (Ingots + leather = Armor!) or you can still make rings, sleeves and so on, and get more SP out of it, and perhaps higher chance of HQ (through HQ parts, etc.)

I'm just not sure what will happen once they entirely phase out the old system.
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#57 Aug 18 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
What the **** is this crap? Why are they dumbing this game down like WoW? What the ****?!

FFXI crafting recipe for scale mail:
Smithing (17)
■1 x Sheep Leather
■4 x Bronze Scales
■1 x Leather Vest
■1 x Cotton Thread

FFXIV crafting recipe for bronze scale mail:
Armorer (30), Leatherworker (25)
■1 x Brass Buckle
■1 x Antelope Sinew Cord
■1 x Red Ochre Buffalo Leather
■1 x Soot-black Buffalo Leather
■1 x Brass Plate
■1 x Bronze Scales

They might not be "dumbing it down like WoW" as much as dumbing it down like FFXI.

----

Also, for a certain time, we'll still be able to use the old recipes, which, like I have shown in a post earlier, should provide more products in exchange for more effort.

I'm actually warming up to that idea: you can craft it the "magical/FFXI" way (Ingots + leather = Armor!) or you can still make rings, sleeves and so on, and get more SP out of it, and perhaps higher chance of HQ (through HQ parts, etc.)

I'm just not sure what will happen once they entirely phase out the old system.


That's one way I may have been okay with the change. How about if we want to craft it with the more in depth process, it takes no or less crystals, and we make use of the guild facilities? Why need crystals if we have a forge?

Using an entire ingot to make a hempen doublet, as per the example, makes me laugh.
That's like buying a ream of paper to write a note, then throwing the rest of the ream away.

Removing complexity doesn't make anything better.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 1:31pm by RamseySylph
#58 Aug 18 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Ariallofkujata wrote:
So...am I gonna get reimbursed for the millions of points it took for me to get all books? I'm not done reading them yet!



Technically its only 140,000 guild marks to get all the training books. Not millions
#59 Aug 18 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I made this post on the official forums, but I'm going to go ahead and drop it here too.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/21514-Stop-the-drama-and-get-to-the-root-of-the-issue

Quote:
I know, I know. ANOTHER thread about the crafting changes?

I'm not the type to go off and start another thread. Typically I'll say my piece in an existing thread and move on. But the overreaction to today's announcement is embarrassing for the community and vastly unwarranted.

With that, I present three sections of the bigger picture. What is lost, what can't yet be determined and what is gained. Then, what I think those upset with the changes should really be focused on.

What is lost

Quote:
The following is a recipe comparison of two armor pieces belonging to the same rank range.

Current Recipe (Hempen Doublet)

1 hempen doublet front
1 hempen doublet back
1 pair of sheepskin shoulder guards (taupe)
1 sheep leather strap (taupe)
1 pair of hempen sleeves
1 spindle of hempen yarn

New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

1 bolt of undyed hempen cloth
1 spindle of hempen yarn
1 circle of sheep leather
1 copper ingot


So most of the outrage is over one low rank example?

The argument is about complexity, yet there's only two fewer ingredients. But yet, those crying out that their complex synths are being smoked out seem to have a case of selective reading comprehension.

Quote:
While there are numerous types of materials and parts in existence, low market demand has resulted in shortages for a large number of items. In addressing this problem, we will gradually do away with intermediate materials that find little use, leaving only those that are central to synthesis. At the same time, we will narrow the gap between the requirements to equip and synthesize gear (across all steps).


1.19 will not see a complete change in recipes. Instead, Yoshi-P and crew are gradually weeding out unnecessary items. So rather than make things "easy mode" off the bat, they're taking baby steps to find out what absolutely needs to be removed.

And ultimately this is one example of different low level options. There's no telling how things will progress as the levels of the equipment and the ranks required to create them progress. This is something SE should have hinted at, given the nature of people on the Internet this kind of reaction should have been expected.

What can't yet be determined

Quote:
Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.


While the need for secondary classes is, in fact, being stripped away, it comes with the footnote that there is a plan to make them useful as an intended mechanic down the line.

However, the example recipe shows that there's a natural need for support crafts.

Wherein the old recipe needed only rely on one other craft to obtain all ingredients, the new recipe shows there's a need for three class' items to complete the synthesis.

I say this allows for a more natural dependance because someone who is more dedicated to crafting will be able to level the crafts to the ranks needed to make those ingredients and ultimately profit more from the item than a crafter who purchased all but the ingredients made by their main craft.

This sort of natural system allows for a more robust economy. It allows players who don't want to be as dedicated to selling wares a chance to focus on a single craft and possibly make items for themselves, whereas a true player can dive in as much as they chose to -- and even control markets with tactics familiar to real businesses such as dropping prices below what those who aren't as dedicate or connected could afford.

But the system of artificial walls such as necessary support craft levels only serves to level the playing field as everyone is the same because they are forced to be by the mechanics of the game.

Ultimately, however, it's an unfortunate game of wait-and-see as only SE knows the future of the support crafts concept.

Quote:
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements

As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.

* Alternate uses are being considered for crafting facilities and treatises.


Again, a highlighted footnote to let everyone know, they're working out something. But again, there seems to be an intent to make entry into crafting more reasonable, and dedication to the system more rewarding.

In a previous letter from the producer, Yoshi-P promised that the changes, however drastic, would not negate the efforts players have invested thus far. And more recently, mentioned that in the event some guild mark abilities change, a limited time buy-back option would be made available. So even if your books change, you'll still get the guild marks to reinvest.

What is gained

Several major items have been floating around that I believe balance out the changes.

From the Letter from the Producer XIV under Grand Company system:

Quote:
Implementation of supply and replenishment objectives


and, under Items, Synthesis and Gathering:

Quote:
Addition of new craftable items and revision of stats on existing ones as part of the introduction of new synthesis recipes (moved from future tasks

[COLOR="red"]Through the new recipes, Disciples of the Hand will be able to customize gear with different attributes. Different colors will be applied to the same graphics to indicate the class for which a certain piece of equipment has been optimized. Samples to be posted on the forums.[/COLOR]


Quote:
Addition of a system for Disciples of the Hand to perform materia crafting


Quote:
Addition of a system for Disciples of the Hand to perform "forbidden" materia crafting


Quote:
Addition of a system for purging equipment of materia


There's a lot coming down the pipe for DoH in exchange for a minor reduction in the overall burden of ingredients required for recipes. Fair exchange, give a little to get a little.

No where in the given information does it say that the DoH classes are being relegated to second-class citizens. Nor is there any indication that they're being dumped as potential classes altogether.

If anything, the supply and replenishment objectives may indicate that there will be opportunities to do more than repetitively grind out the same recipes over and over in the linear pursuit of the next rank ding.

End notes

Constructive criticism goes a lot farther than blind rage.

If DoH and DoL would like to be more than just workers on a conveyer belt, you need to let SE know that you want real reasons to be more than crafters. Vehemently shooting down a single list of proposed changes based on one example contained therein will do nothing for progress.

If you want your recipes largely untouched, then support or even present alternatives to the true issue the complexity of those recipes presents; a problematic and frustrating leveling experience.

Let SE know there's a desire for opportunities for levels to be gained through social and world activites. DoH- and DoL- specific raids and quests. If a player can enjoy the process of leveling, a complex ingredient list won't seem so bad when it comes time to create mid- to high-rank items.

The larger aim of the development team has been to make this a game accessible for a wide variety of gamers. So far, they seem to have been taking the proper steps to attain that goal without harming the integrity of a core experience.

Have a little faith. And in the mean time, be constructive.
#60 Aug 18 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Halleluyah!!!
Finally they will allow us to actually craft, and not spend days of hoarding materials just for that stupid missing hempen fent sleeve piece No. 1324 (light blue, with a hint of ochre and yellow spots).



You just put the case i was thinking off.

I am glad with the change,
#61 Aug 18 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
I made this post on the official forums, but I'm going to go ahead and drop it here too.


I'm probably the one complaining the most about this, but I also have a thread outlining and open for suggestions from other players about how to make crafting classes more enjoyable.

The crux of your argument is "they're not doing away with all intermediary parts" but the example is an example for a reason. It shows us that they've gotten rid of sleeves, shirt parts, buckles and straps.

Okay so what, we still have to make yarn, cloth, ingots? No one was saying we were just going to turn cotton bolls and bronze ore into a shirt.

This is bad on many levels, as I've already outlined. One that I didn't outline is conversion ratio. Before 12 buckle = 2 squares, 1 nugget. 1 ingot = 5 nuggets. Now we get to use 1 ingot in place of buckles?

The idea that we're using an entire ingot instead of a buckle pretty much indicates that ore will go directly to ingots now as well. (Or someone is an absolute moron.)

Would all of this be forgiven if many changes were made to compensate and counterbalance? Yes. But there's been no indication any kind of changes along those lines are on their way. The only indications we've been getting is that crafting is not going to be fleshed out and supported to the degree it was originally implied (equally with DoW/DoM) and this is just another step down that road.

Edited, Aug 18th 2011 4:51pm by RamseySylph
#62 Aug 18 2011 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm disappointed in this change but as someone else said, "I'll adapt". My bigger concern is the economy as a whole.
Is anyone else worried about the removal of hundreds of items?

It will mean more room on my retainers but I'm more worried about the creation of a sudden vacuum in some markets and over-crowding in others.

My concern may be unfounded based on the introduction of new items and materia crafting etc...
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#63 Aug 18 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I'm disappointed in this change but as someone else said, "I'll adapt". My bigger concern is the economy as a whole.
Is anyone else worried about the removal of hundreds of items?

It will mean more room on my retainers but I'm more worried about the creation of a sudden vacuum in some markets and over-crowding in others.

My concern may be unfounded based on the introduction of new items and materia crafting etc...



I think the biggest problem for the economy is that they have a player base who have been accumulating gil for a full year with nothing to spend it on. Most of which now have Unique/Exclusive items that outclass most top tier HQ synth items.

They're going to have to find a way to drain some gear without making things impossible for new players.
#64 Aug 18 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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When they remove the Guild Synthesis support and the book skills and specifically say they'll reimplement it later somehow, I can't help but think about the "workshop" ideas crafters have been throwing around.

Let's hope the changes are the road to that.
#65 Aug 19 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I tend to like all of the changes except for abolition of treatises as a requirement. Really and truly, unless they give guild marks a superior or equal purpose to what they're used for now, local leves will be all but obsolete. The only way they can save most of them is by increasing gil reward, providing extra rare mats as a reward, or making treatises boost HQ chance by a noticeable margin. What purpose would you have for saving marks otherwise? Most of the higher tier abilities are junk, and really...who needs crystals @ 300GM a pop.

The other area of concern that others have discussed, is parts removal. While I've gotten pretty good at finding alternatives, there are some crafts like LW and ARM, where parts crafting is essential to making it through grey level ranges. That being said, i'm definitely in favor of ditching it...nothing's more annoying that spending hours crafting parts just to make a few lousy pieces of armor. I guess we'll see what comes down the pike, but overall...I think these changes are a good thing.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 1:13am by Dallie
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#66 Aug 19 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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RamseySylph wrote:
Removing complexity doesn't make anything better.


As a generic statement this is simply not true. There are a lot of things that benefit immensely from removing their complexity, several of those we've seen in this game since it launched.

Now the argument of this as it applies toward crafting in this game is completely subjective - there's no right or wrong answer at this point, it's entirely one's opinion. I personally believe that a less complex crafting system will benefit this game ten times over. You want to see it kept in its current form - neither of us is wrong, we simply have a different outlook on it.

But to say that as a whole removing complexity doesn't make anything better is just incorrect.
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#67 Aug 19 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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kainsilv wrote:
I'm disappointed in this change but as someone else said, "I'll adapt". My bigger concern is the economy as a whole.
Is anyone else worried about the removal of hundreds of items?

It will mean more room on my retainers but I'm more worried about the creation of a sudden vacuum in some markets and over-crowding in others.



There really isn't a mature economy in FFXIV to be worried about at this point and personally, in my opinion, the developers are going to need to look at some sort of money-sink and deflation mechanisms before this game gets ready for mass consumption again, mainly a PS3 launch.

There are more than a fair share of players, especially early adopters like me, sitting on 10s of millions of gil right now with very little incentive to reinvest it back into the market. It's a stretch to say I earned that money either, as it all came via normal game mechanics - at no point did I venture out and actively try to earn a fortune.

That sort of disparity between players will not create an inviting economy for newcomers to jump into.
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#68 Aug 19 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Default
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Whales wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
Removing complexity doesn't make anything better.


As a generic statement this is simply not true. There are a lot of things that benefit immensely from removing their complexity, several of those we've seen in this game since it launched.

Now the argument of this as it applies toward crafting in this game is completely subjective - there's no right or wrong answer at this point, it's entirely one's opinion. I personally believe that a less complex crafting system will benefit this game ten times over. You want to see it kept in its current form - neither of us is wrong, we simply have a different outlook on it.

But to say that as a whole removing complexity doesn't make anything better is just incorrect.


Removing complexity when complexity is ALL that you have, is not good.

One of the most brilliant parts of this game, was that every single drop, every single little item (with a list of exceptions numbering in what, the 10s? maybe 20s at most?) had an actual use in the world.

The amount of detail that went into the items, every little part finding a place. It was beautiful.

Was the execution of using those parts amazing? No, it was tedious. The problem was NOT the complexity, it was the tedium and frustration of using those parts.

There are thousands of ways that the tedium and frustration could have been eliminated without removing one of the things that made the world and it's item design unique. I suppose they made the right decision though, seeing the responses on this forum (gods know, anything that makes things easier, less complex etc. is the right financial decision with today's MMO gamers.)
#69 Aug 19 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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RamseySylph wrote:

Removing complexity when complexity is ALL that you have, is not good.

One of the most brilliant parts of this game, was that every single drop, every single little item (with a list of exceptions numbering in what, the 10s? maybe 20s at most?) had an actual use in the world.

The amount of detail that went into the items, every little part finding a place. It was beautiful.

Was the execution of using those parts amazing? No, it was tedious. The problem was NOT the complexity, it was the tedium and frustration of using those parts.

There are thousands of ways that the tedium and frustration could have been eliminated without removing one of the things that made the world and it's item design unique. I suppose they made the right decision though, seeing the responses on this forum (gods know, anything that makes things easier, less complex etc. is the right financial decision with today's MMO gamers.)


Again, you're directly talking about the crafting system in this game, which I have no interest in debating - it's a purely subjective position with no real right or wrong answer, it's just personal preference.

My response was to the generic statement of "Removing complexity doesn't make anything better." as it applies to everything. There's a myriad of situations out there where removing complexity made it better. I'm not telling you that you're wrong for feeling that way toward the FFXIV crafting system, the opposite in fact, simply that it's wrong to assume that's true for everything.
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#70 Aug 19 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Whales wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:

Removing complexity when complexity is ALL that you have, is not good.

One of the most brilliant parts of this game, was that every single drop, every single little item (with a list of exceptions numbering in what, the 10s? maybe 20s at most?) had an actual use in the world.

The amount of detail that went into the items, every little part finding a place. It was beautiful.

Was the execution of using those parts amazing? No, it was tedious. The problem was NOT the complexity, it was the tedium and frustration of using those parts.

There are thousands of ways that the tedium and frustration could have been eliminated without removing one of the things that made the world and it's item design unique. I suppose they made the right decision though, seeing the responses on this forum (gods know, anything that makes things easier, less complex etc. is the right financial decision with today's MMO gamers.)


Again, you're directly talking about the crafting system in this game, which I have no interest in debating - it's a purely subjective position with no real right or wrong answer, it's just personal preference.

My response was to the generic statement of "Removing complexity doesn't make anything better." as it applies to everything. There's a myriad of situations out there where removing complexity made it better. I'm not telling you that you're wrong for feeling that way toward the FFXIV crafting system, the opposite in fact, simply that it's wrong to assume that's true for everything.


The entire statement is at it's core an opinion. Games are series of complex systems, so to amend that statement, since you seem intent on taking it as one I meant to apply slavishly to "everything in the universe."

In games, removing complexity, when complexity is all the system has going for it, is never a good thing.
#71 Aug 19 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:
In games, removing complexity, when complexity is all the system has going for it, is never a good thing.


Can't disagree with that. In fact it's quite appropriate given the crafting system we have now.

RamseySylph wrote:
The entire statement is at it's core an opinion. Games are series of complex systems, so to amend that statement, since you seem intent on taking it as one I meant to apply slavishly to "everything in the universe."


The reason for the harping upon that point is, compared to a lot of other MMOs out there, FFXIV is a game riddled with highly complex systems. In fact a lot of players love the Final Fantasy Online series simply for that reason alone.

I just can't find it appropriate to state that the removal of some of these complex systems were not a good thing, especially given the changes we've seen with this game since launch. Does the crafting system fall into that category? I don't know, only time will tell.
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#72 Aug 19 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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I just want to add... WTF are we going with our hard earned mark and they abolish training book? Crystal or semi useless skill? I will be the first to admit that the part of the crafting system is needlessly complex.... for a piece of robe you need robe front, robe back and sleeve + a bit of extra... it is just very time consuming to made it all. I understand if it is end end equipment but it is a basic lvl 10-20 equipment. Second is fishing rod... enough said.

Edited, Aug 19th 2011 2:48pm by xellosalpha
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