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#1 Aug 25 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see changes to both the claiming and engaging of enemies.

Currently, when a player claims and engages an enemy, they can earn experience points and loot, as well as credit for quest objectives, upon defeating the enemy. However, a player can only engage and hold claim over one enemy (or group of enemies) at a time as the system does not allow players to engage multiple enemy groups simultaneously.

In order to address the above issue, as well as several others, the following changes will be made.

Claiming and Engaging Enemies

Players will be able to attack any enemy*. However, only the player (or party that the player is in) that initiates the first attack on the enemy will earn the rewards.

* Only players that are participating in levequests, or in behests, can engage enemies that are specific to those battles.

The color of an enemy’s name will indicate whether or not you will be granted the rewards upon defeating it.
If the name of the enemy is red, you or your party will earn the rewards.
If the name of the enemy is purple, another player or party will earn the rewards.

An enemy’s name will appear in orange if it is unclaimed, but is attacking another player.
* Once you have engaged the enemy, you or your party will earn its reward.
Claim on an enemy will be lost under the following conditions:
If the party that initially claimed the enemy is defeated.
If a claimed enemy returns to its territory.



http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/286


Quote:
[dev1131] The Enemy Link System

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see the introduction of the enemy link system.

The enemy link system allows an enemy to call for reinforcements based on the strength of the party that initiated contact with it.

Enemies will call for reinforcements under the following conditions:
When an enemy detects a player and initiates an attack.
When a player initiates an attack on an enemy.

* Enemies can only call for reinforcements once.
* If enemies have already formed a group, they will not call for reinforcements, nor will they react to a call from other enemies.

How an enemy will call for reinforcements
The number of enemies that will be called upon will be based on the comparison of the strength of the party that initiated the attack (or was detected by the enemy) and the strength of the enemy itself.
All types of enemies in the vicinity will be called upon regardless of whether or not they are the same type of enemy that made the call.

* Certain powerful enemies will not react to the call.
* Only enemies present within a certain distance will be called.


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To hold a discussion and/or submit feedbacks on this topic, please use "dev1131" as a tag.



http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22183-dev1131-The-Enemy-Link-System?p=310376#post310376



Quote:
[dev1132] Addition and Adjustments to Bonuses on Experience Points

* This feature, planned for patch 1.19, is still in development, and therefore subject to change.

Patch 1.19 will see the introduction of two new systems, along with adjustments to the amount of obtainable experience points and how they are distributed.

We plan to introduce new systems which will allow players to receive more experience points by tactically defeating enemies. We will also be implementing adjustments to overall experience point rewards and the current party bonus algorithm.

Link Bonuses

Link bonuses will be granted based on how many enemies are linked to the current target. The more enemies that are linked, the larger the amount of bonus experience points will be granted.

Peruse the details of the enemy link system.

Chain Bonuses

Chain bonuses will be granted when players consecutively defeat enemies that have levels equal to or higher than their own, within a specific amount of time*.

As the number of chains increase, the experience bonus will increase, but the amount of time* granted to maintain the chain will shorten.

* A time limit within which players are required to defeat an enemy to maintain the chain after defeating another.


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To hold a discussion and/or submit feedbacks on this topic, please use "dev1132" as a tag.



http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22187-dev1132-Addition-and-Adjustments-to-Bonuses-on-Experience-Points?p=310383#post310383
#2 Aug 25 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will be lol if I hit a Marmot and a bunch of Goats coming to the rescue. Wouldn't they make it more sensible to only have same kin coming to help?
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#3 Aug 25 2011 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
I can see that being a big problem. I am not entirely sure I like the concept at all. Especially if your trying to pull a mob to a safer place to fight.
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#4 Aug 25 2011 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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They're really pushing more and more into larger scale and coordinated/group-based fights as a desirable way to play, which is fantastic and absolutely the way to go.

But if they don't do something about the awful party search it'll all be for moot. I understand that if people used the current system it has potential to work, but I've spent the past three weeks leveling new classes and mining/logging, all while utilizing/browsing the current system and I've not seen a single party. I've even sat in Ul'dah watching the chat logs for shouts with no results.

They're reworking this game with all sorts of fantastic incentives to group and battle mechanics, but I've yet to be able to experience a single one despite weeks of trying.
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#5 Aug 25 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
I can see that being a big problem. I am not entirely sure I like the concept at all. Especially if your trying to pull a mob to a safer place to fight.


It's really tough to tell how things will turn out. It seems it'll be a completely different game come 1.19.

It seems like they're trying to merge the best of both worlds -- an urge to group for experience points without the tedium of standing in one spot and pulling. Instead the group has to plan ahead and engage the mob's with a plan. It'll reward the parties who communicate better.

I kind of like the concept, but we'll see what happens with the execution.
#6 Aug 25 2011 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I want to see dynamic mobs play, when they pull YOU. Kind of like the leve mobs that run away and then pop some other mobs. Imagine you hit this Marmot, it will run away straight into Bloatbelly gang and call for help.
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#7 Aug 25 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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Good to see we're almost up to speed with FFXI.
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#8 Aug 25 2011 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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Enemies that can call for help. right?

Ok, but I just hope that we will not get these situations where you have to have "nice conversations" with players who want to empty an entire area just by hitting the mob in the middle and scream "DON'T TOUCH THEM!! THEY ARE MINE!!!!!".

Quite a lot of people who have done Yagudo beads quests pre-all kinds of patches in FFXI know what I mean.

Or that you look up in your field filled with good exp. preys and see that all the mobs are running towards some central point where some rank 50 just had to hit one of their species on the head because of a pelt or something. SE should really think this through before they will actually implement it.


Edited, Aug 26th 2011 1:44am by Woofdram
#9 Aug 25 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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lol at yagudo beads.

I also once had an Anon wearing war AF tell me not to take "his" leeches at the beach in bubu because he was "trying to learn blu magic"

Edited, Aug 25th 2011 10:42pm by Olorinus
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#10 Aug 25 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Anyway this looks promising. It could make for some interesting battles, and at last, AOE abilities will be useful in ordinary battles.

If they only made an AOE siphon mp for THM I would forgive them for everything.
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#11 Aug 25 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
lol at yagudo beads.

I also once had an Anon wearing war AF tell me not to take "his" leeches at the beach in bubu because he was "trying to learn blu magic"

Edited, Aug 25th 2011 10:42pm by Olorinus


XI was rampant with that sort of thing. I hope XIV can avoid this sort of bickering.
#12 Aug 25 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Man, talk about potential for abuse.
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#13 Aug 26 2011 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Really, this is the link system? I was excited for this but now...

What it should be is reinforcement monsters being spawned nearby of the same family/type that come to the enemies rescue if and only if the attacking group checks as overkill for the enemy. By making it all originally nearby enemies it doesn't solve the problem of there often being too few enemies for groups to kill, and probably will create ALL sorts of situations where we die needlessly to some random high level aldagoat linking with our dodo.

This is the OPPOSITE of what should have been done about the mob-vomit of random enemies all over the place. Enemies not of the same family that are not aggressive should retreat to somewhere away from a battle when one is happening nearby. This game is very AoE heavy, and it's absolutely obnoxious when a non-aggressive big fat cockatrice is sitting on top of you while you fight a dragon or something for your leve. No, I'm sorry, I realize Dodos went extinct, but I don't even think they were brainless enough to just stand between a fire-breathing dragon and a bunch of guys swinging scary bladed weapons at it.

To curb being a total downer though, I am rather excited about EXP chains, not sure why it wasn't in at the start (you guys did this 10 years ago SE!) but I am happy to have it now!

Edited, Aug 25th 2011 11:44pm by RamseySylph
#14 Aug 26 2011 at 12:56 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
I will be lol if I hit a Marmot and a bunch of Goats coming to the rescue. Wouldn't they make it more sensible to only have same kin coming to help?

RamseySylph wrote:
This is the OPPOSITE of what should have been done about the mob-vomit of random enemies all over the place.

Yeah, we already have mob placement in zones that doesn't make sense, and now we'll have every open land mob linking with any other open land mob(s)? We'll have to see it for ourselves, but this seems like it will more than occasionally feel bizarre. Wish they hadn't just thrown it all under one umbrella, done some more work, and made it feel more natural.. Such as only like kin being called as reinforcements.

I think this might especially confuse and annoy new players who haven't read up on it.
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#15 Aug 26 2011 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
Man, talk about potential for abuse.

No doubt someone will snipe another group's NM pull and kick back as they watch the other group do all the work for none of the reward. That or wipe... either way, it's good entertainment. I'm going to say this update is a win/win.
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#16 Aug 26 2011 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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This will definitely be abused. I forsee an emergency maintenance within several hours after patch time if all goes as stated here.
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#17 Aug 26 2011 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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Dallie wrote:
This will definitely be abused. I forsee an emergency maintenance within several hours after patch time if all goes as stated here.


The new claiming system works exactly as in LoTRO. It's different than FFXI, sure, but I don't how its ripe for abuse. Minor griefing maybe, but certainly not emergency maintenance level abuse. I'm curious if anyone calling "abuse!" can give a good example.

As far as the linking system, we'll have to see just how variables like the call radius and number work before drawing conclusions. At most I foresee this as an annoyance due to mix-and-match mob placement. But again, I don't see how this could be abused.

#18 Aug 26 2011 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Not sure why different creatures would help each other. If a marmot called a dreadwolf for help, surely it'd just eat it.
We'll have to wait and see I guess.
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#19 Aug 26 2011 at 7:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Dallie wrote:
This will definitely be abused. I forsee an emergency maintenance within several hours after patch time if all goes as stated here.



The only "Abuse" I can see happening would be the Power Leveling that this system enables, other than that I just don't see it...
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#20 Aug 26 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if this will apply to nms ... Sounds like it. In that case I can maybe see this scenario (keep in mind it says aggro is lost if mob returns to it's area):

Group 1 claims NM and begins killing. Group 2 wants that NM so they start fighting it and get hate ... they run the NM out of it's zone so that it will have to return back. If what they have here is true, the NM will go unclaimed and group 2 will have a shot at getting claim. If they do, group 1 will be ****** and repeat the process until eventually one of the groups manages to get the final claim and kill the NM.

It is also ripe with PL abuse. Level 20 character engages a level 30+ mob, their level 50 friend proceeds to kill it in 1-2 hits, and the level 20 gets all the xp ... sounds fun.

Of course, I hope hey have the foresight to recognize these issues and change something so they don't happen.
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#21 Aug 26 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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UnicornBonesaw wrote:
I wonder if this will apply to nms ... Sounds like it. In that case I can maybe see this scenario (keep in mind it says aggro is lost if mob returns to it's area):

Group 1 claims NM and begins killing. Group 2 wants that NM so they start fighting it and get hate ... they run the NM out of it's zone so that it will have to return back. If what they have here is true, the NM will go unclaimed and group 2 will have a shot at getting claim. If they do, group 1 will be ****** and repeat the process until eventually one of the groups manages to get the final claim and kill the NM.


Easy fix: Groups attacking a claimed mob generate zero or very little hate.

UnicornBonesaw wrote:
It is also ripe with PL abuse. Level 20 character engages a level 30+ mob, their level 50 friend proceeds to kill it in 1-2 hits, and the level 20 gets all the xp ... sounds fun.


Easy fix: Claimed mobs killed by an outside member give reduced xp. Unfortunately this can lead to griefing (Killing claimed mobs to prevent the claimer from gaining xp), however it's such a cut and dry case of griefing (Since the griefer gains absolutely nothing and thus has no excuse) a simple GM call should resolve it. This was never an issue in LoTRO, and unless the playerbase here is exceptionally worse, I don't think it will be a problem. But no system is perfect.

UnicornBonesaw wrote:
Of course, I hope hey have the foresight to recognize these issues and change something so they don't happen.


With how on-the-ball Yoshida has been, I'm fairly confidant he has foreseen the problems and will implement mechanics to discourage them.
#22 Aug 26 2011 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
With how on-the-ball Yoshida has been, I'm fairly confidant he has foreseen the problems and will implement mechanics to discourage them.


I am with you there. But sometimes the most obvious solutions elude us.

Your solutions would work, and I agree that any griefing as a result should be easily dealt with ... assuming we will have GMs that do something besides provide automated responses. Here is their response so they can copy/paste it from here.

"Thank you adventurer for your concerns, we apologize you are having a problem with another player. We will look into it, but we will not be able to give you any details into our investigation, nor can we tell you what the results are."

Edit: silly auto-correct

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 9:08am by UnicornBonesaw

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 9:08am by UnicornBonesaw
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#23 Aug 26 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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it hasn't even been implemented and seen yet and you are already talking about fixes....let them be implemented first....
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#24 Aug 26 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Easy fix: Groups attacking a claimed mob generate zero or very little hate.

Cool idea, bro. So I run in with my PLD, take a swing at Behemot, and then have a bunch of glass-cannon DDs go all out and kill it for me, since they'll never pull aggro.

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 11:44am by Rinsui
#25 Aug 26 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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... so why are they letting outside players attack others' claimed monsters? o_O
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#26 Aug 26 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
More importantly, will attacking a claimed mob affect the party's SP that claimed it? If not then what's to stop a much lower level person from getting super-PL'd on high ranking monsters using a 2nd, higher level party to kill them (as long as the person getting PL'd could live long enough...); or if so then what's to stop some group of higher level trolls coming through and ruining everyones SP by hitting it one time?

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 12:33pm by StateAlchemist

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 12:35pm by StateAlchemist
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#27 Aug 26 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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I honestly see NO reason for this.

How will this not get abused!?

1) Now you can, theoretically, have a party of any size. If they add some hard to kill roaming nm, just tackle it with infinite players.

2) This is PL city. Why not just let me cure or raise others currently engaged in battle? They won't allow that but they will let me kill it for you.

3) How does this benefit the game? I'm not saying it's necessarily bad or can't be done in a good way, but it seems like a needless change, when all we really need to the ability to gain SP when a monster dies, and not gain less just because it was hit with my AoE attack and had less hp when I "claimed" it.

Waiting for implementation but this worries me.
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#28 Aug 26 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
Louiscool wrote:
I honestly see NO reason for this.

How will this not get abused!?

1) Now you can, theoretically, have a party of any size. If they add some hard to kill roaming nm, just tackle it with infinite players.

2) This is PL city. Why not just let me cure or raise others currently engaged in battle? They won't allow that but they will let me kill it for you.

3) How does this benefit the game? I'm not saying it's necessarily bad or can't be done in a good way, but it seems like a needless change, when all we really need to the ability to gain SP when a monster dies, and not gain less just because it was hit with my AoE attack and had less hp when I "claimed" it.

Waiting for implementation but this worries me.

I agree I think this is a huge mistake.
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#29 Aug 26 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
StateAlchemist wrote:
Waiting for implementation but this worries me.

I agree I think this is a huge mistake.


It sure doesn't seem like a good move... also, the fact that so many people seem to agree on this point suggests that SE might need to rethink what they're doing here.

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 1:30pm by KaneKitty
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#30 Aug 26 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
KaneKitty wrote:
StateAlchemist the Eccentric wrote:
StateAlchemist wrote:
Waiting for implementation but this worries me.

I agree I think this is a huge mistake.


It sure doesn't seem like a good move... also, the fact that so many people seem to agree on this point suggests that SE might need to rethink what they're doing here.

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 1:30pm by KaneKitty


I think we should post all of this on the official forum. lol Not gonna do much good if we don't raise **** there.
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#31 Aug 26 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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The discussion is going on here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22196-dev1026-Changes-to-Claiming-and-Engaging-Enemies/page8

The more I think about this scenario, the more I think it is lose-lose. Someone said this worked in LoTR online, how was it setup there?

Here's to hoping for /blockaid
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#32 Aug 26 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
UnicornBonesaw wrote:
The discussion is going on here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/22196-dev1026-Changes-to-Claiming-and-Engaging-Enemies/page8

The more I think about this scenario, the more I think it is lose-lose. Someone said this worked in LoTR online, how was it setup there?

Here's to hoping for /blockaid


"/blockaid" would only stop griefing. Not prevent RMT(or anyone else for that matter) abusing the ability to freely PL.

I played LoTR online a lil' bit, and yes this system is used in LoTR, but at the same time, I was low-level, didn't progress far, and so never witnessed what kind of impact this may have had in more pertinent scenarios.

As far as FFXIV goes...ther is no reason to implement this system. No matter how they implement it, there will be a problem with either a)SP; b)Enmity; or c)RMT. Abuse is inevitable. I hope Yoshi doesn't go through with this.
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#33 Aug 26 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Lol silly iPad double post

Edited, Aug 26th 2011 3:02pm by UnicornBonesaw
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#34 Aug 26 2011 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I will refrain from hammering this till i see it in practice.
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#35 Aug 26 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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UnicornBonesaw wrote:
Someone said this worked in LoTR online, how was it setup there?


In LoTRO, it's essentially the same system. First person to "tag" a mob has claim, but anyone can attack it. If someone outside your fellowship (party) does anything to the mob, you get drastically less exp (something like 25% of the original). The person to tag the mob also got looting rights. Just like FFXIV it was open world mobs only, and if you run far enough mobs de-aggro and return to their spawn area. As far as the system was concerned, it worked fine. The primary benefit is that if a passerby sees you're in trouble they can help kill the mob beating on you without the clunky call-for-help system. I never recall anyone griefing me by attacking my claimed mobs.

That being said, open world grinding was for deeds (permanent stat boosts) or for farming and not for exp. However even if exping in FFXIV continues to be in open world grinding I still don't think this system will be a problem. In order to grieg a party you'd need to have 4/8 people willing to sacrifice ALL progress just to grief another party. I know if I ever join a group that decides to grief, I'd leave simply because I wouldn't gain any exp.

#36 Aug 26 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Default
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No no no. They've already put a damper on soloing outside of leves with the increase of MP required to cure oneself. There are camps out there that would become useless if this became true.

I don't want to pull a grind mob and have it call it's buddies over for help.

Square keeps saying they want a game for casuals, which to me translates to logging on to do some leves than grinding on some mobs until next leve reset, along with a robust party system for people who have more time.

Either give me an endless supply of leves or stop ******* with my ability to find a camp that I can grind mobs on.
#37 Aug 28 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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The way I understand it is;

if you know a camp that's good for 3 players, and go with 8, everytime you pull a mob, it will actually spawn allies, making it a group-vs-group fight, with more mobs.

Ergo, the same camps work for small and big parties, making everyone happy, and allowing SE not to create camps specifically for big groups or the opposite.

SE wrote:
The enemy link system allows an enemy to call for reinforcements based on the strength of the party that initiated contact with it.

Enemies will call for reinforcements under the following conditions:
When an enemy detects a player and initiates an attack.
When a player initiates an attack on an enemy.

In a nutshell:
1) Mobs can summon allies.
2a) Mobs will summon allies if they agro you.
2b) Mobs will summon allies if you agro them.

So essentially, they wasted time giving us too much information about the fact enemies will only call for help at the beginning of a fight, and not enough about "what do they mean by 'based on the strength of the party'?" That's the important part to this whole business.

Link-bonus, EXP chain and being able to claim multiple mobs (that aren't in party) are good changes. The only suspicious one is this reinforcement bit, and I'm pretty optimistic about it, assuming it really means more mobs, not simply linking with surrounding mobs.
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#38 Aug 28 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
I don't want to pull a grind mob and have it call it's buddies over for help.


Mobs won't call for help when you solo, unless you are over its rank, at which point you also forfeit chain bonus.
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#39 Aug 28 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
The way I understand it is;

if you know a camp that's good for 3 players, and go with 8, everytime you pull a mob, it will actually spawn allies, making it a group-vs-group fight, with more mobs.
This quote contradicts that:
Quote:
How an enemy will call for reinforcements
The number of enemies that will be called upon will be based on the comparison of the strength of the party that initiated the attack (or was detected by the enemy) and the strength of the enemy itself.
All types of enemies in the vicinity will be called upon regardless of whether or not they are the same type of enemy that made the call.

* Certain powerful enemies will not react to the call.
* Only enemies present within a certain distance will be called.


Edited, Aug 28th 2011 8:12pm by Kirby
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